Author Topic: please explain the second eclipse!  (Read 10802 times)

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psymont

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please explain the second eclipse!
« on: January 16, 2003, 06:56:30 PM »
i dont get it .... a guy lived under dead bodies and then met the angels and gave up his world(or connection with it) for his wish: a savior ..... he became a a centinent Beherit and chose who would recieve his power based on where or not he believed in their cause? .... why mozgus? why the goat? .... the new incarnation of griffith is guts' kid, but tainted by evil(?) the skullknight explained that his unborn child chose the path of evil .... why did it protect Casca and annoy guts rather than protect him? .... the reflection of the eclipse happened because ____(?) .... was the power of mozgus' faith keeping the darkness at bay? .... did the large egg that ate guts' kid get destroyed?(it cracked) .... did it realize it wouldnt be around to see its savior? .... is griffith really a savior? .... i dont think anyone knows his true intentions .... we know he wants to gain his empire, but then what? rule it til he dies? so what .... i think maybe once he has his own empire he will sacrifice it for control of the world .... please answer some of my questions .... i feel that the volumes to which i refer are way out of left field ....
« Last Edit: January 16, 2003, 11:02:16 PM by psymont »

Offline Walter

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2003, 01:17:59 AM »
i dont get it .... a guy lived under dead bodies and then met the angels and gave up his world(or connection with it) for his wish: a savior ..... he became a a centinent Beherit and chose who would recieve his power based on where or not he believed in their cause? .... why mozgus? why the goat? ....
I guess you mean "sentient".  He chose them because they got in the way of Guts, who would try to stop the ceremony.
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the new incarnation of griffith is guts' kid, but tainted by evil(?)
Guts and Casca's premature (extremely so) baby, yes.
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the skullknight explained that his unborn child chose the path of evil ... why did it protect Casca and annoy guts rather than protect him?
He didnt annoy Guts per se. He warned him of oncoming disaster. See volume 17.
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.... the reflection of the eclipse happened because ____(?)
Many many reasons.  Revolting religious/cult followers, buildup of negative emotion congested in the abyss of bodies (which formed the huge acid demon thing)... and the causality of what needed to happen so that the eclipse could come to be.
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.... was the power of mozgus' faith keeping the darkness at bay?
No way. In my opinion he furthered it by oppressing people.
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psymont

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2003, 02:05:05 AM »
uh, sentient, yeh that what i meant .... anyway, why is it that the acid didnt swallow the crowd until mozgus was defeated?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2003, 03:01:11 AM by psymont »

Offline Walter

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2003, 02:15:54 AM »
uh, sentient, yeh that what i meant .... anyway, why is it that the acid didnt swallow the cloud until mozgus was defeated?
Err cloud? Sorry, im rusty on vol 21, dont have it on me.
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psymont

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2003, 02:59:05 AM »
sorry i am phuched ukp on thorzine and i meant to say "crowd" not cloud ....  

so concerning it going on at ALBION .... its kinda like Ghostbusters 2 .... veego came to NY because the negative energy was so concentrated there .... is that a good correlation?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2003, 03:04:49 AM by psymont »

Offline Walter

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2003, 03:10:33 AM »
so concerning it going on at ALBION .... its kinda like Ghostbusters 2 .... veego came to NY because the negative energy was so concentrated there .... is that a good correlation?
Pretty much, yeah.
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Offline Ashitaka

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2003, 04:52:58 PM »
i dont get it .... a guy lived under dead bodies and then met the angels and gave up his world(or connection with it) for his wish: a savior ..... he became a a centinent Beherit and chose who would recieve his power based on where or not he believed in their cause? .... why mozgus? why the goat? ....
I guess you mean "sentient".  He chose them because they got in the way of Guts, who would try to stop the ceremony.

It's a little confused for me too...
I mean, wasn't it the beherit apostle that brouth Casca in Albion?
wasn't it because she was marked and by this mean helped the ceremony?
And finaly, wasn't it also because a second marked person could came and helped even more the ceremony?

And one more question. Was the sacrifice for the beherit apostle or for grifith...
I don't know how  to explain it but I had the feeling that it was an other sacrifice but for grifith. The fact that people wished for change and that they could saw the hawk in dreams was for me just like an other "band of the hawk"...
Well I guess I am wrong but there was two marks. One on the apostle toung, and the other one forming by the fire.
So one for the apostle wish, and the other one, maybe for the rebirth of Grifith....

psymont

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2003, 03:38:42 PM »
i think i got it now .... the only thing that i dont understand is why the blob was holding back from killing the crowd while the mozgus/guts fight raged on .... is it because of the overwhelming hope and faith(positive energy) that the crowd had in mozgus? .... the reason i say this is because when mozgus died the blob attacked on immediately as if mozgus' livelihood kept the blob at bay  ....

Offline karsa

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2003, 11:24:11 PM »
Mm, I noticed the blob wasn't up to much, but I thought it was just manga mechanics - it would have disrupted what else was happening. Then again, I didn't understand what the hell was going on for most of it anyway, I was just thinking, Griffith hurry up and get reborn!  Besides which, I can't stand all that mystic stuff (always it seems to be in cryptic unfinished sentences which you need a degree in portentousness to understand) so I tend to ignore it.  Walter's explanation didn't help much, and my Ghostbusters is a little rusty.
Shouldn't it have happened for a *particular* reason, not it being the cumulative effect of lots of little ones?  It seems a bit... messy.  

Offline THE BEAST

Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2003, 08:49:29 AM »
Shouldn't it have happened for a *particular* reason, not it being the cumulative effect of lots of little ones?  It seems a bit... messy.  
ok it happend so Griffith could be reborn and the plot could develop.. good enough?

Offline Smith

Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2003, 10:35:19 AM »
uh, sentient, yeh that what i meant .... anyway, why is it that the acid didnt swallow the crowd until mozgus was defeated?

I did noticed that too, maybe mozgus wasnt that bad afterall, u see he is trying to kill Casca so as to prevent the blob from digesting thousand of people, but during the procedure where Casca was hanged up, he was busy using his scared fire to keep the monster at bay.

Indeed it was at this point where i realized Guts had caused the death of thousand of poor innocent people...  :'(
« Last Edit: July 26, 2003, 10:36:24 AM by Smith »
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Offline Woland

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2003, 12:31:17 PM »
I did noticed that too, maybe mozgus wasnt that bad afterall, u see he is trying to kill Casca so as to prevent the blob from digesting thousand of people, but during the procedure where Casca was hanged up, he was busy using his scared fire to keep the monster at bay.

Indeed it was at this point where i realized Guts had caused the death of thousand of poor innocent people...  :'(

Oh well, sucks to be them.
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Offline kimchan

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2003, 02:29:25 PM »

Indeed it was at this point where i realized Guts had caused the death of thousand of poor innocent people...  :'(

Not really the first time.
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Offline Walter

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2003, 04:03:00 PM »
Shouldn't it have happened for a *particular* reason, not it being the cumulative effect of lots of little ones?  It seems a bit... messy.  

Messy? Were you even paying attention? This is Causality. Everything happens for a reason.  The events at Albion are a forced "re-run" of the previous eclipse. Skully told us this this would happen back in volume 18.  All of these events are facilitating Griffith's Rebirth.

If you need further details,  Albion is the center of a religious movement that forces people to a religion they believe only so they can survive.  Maybe a few even genuinely believe it. The major point is, they are persecuted and their lives are in the shitter.  Who will save them from this? Who better than the prophesized Hawk?

To properly mirror the events of the previous eclipse, hundreds of people had to be sacrificed to act as the role of The Hawks', or sacrifices.  Of course, there were Brands being dealt out, but this is a mirror eclipse.  Guts and Casca also had to be present for these events to be psuedo-parallel.  Once they finally met up, everything was set into motion, starting with the actions of the Beherit Apostle.

As for a *particular* reason, the world needed a saviour, and Griffith is as close to one as they're going to get.
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Offline Smith

Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2003, 01:27:06 AM »



To properly mirror the events of the previous eclipse, hundreds of people had to be sacrificed to act as the role of The Hawks', or sacrifices.  Of course, there were Brands being dealt out, but this is a mirror eclipse.  Guts and Casca also had to be present for these events to be psuedo-parallel.  Once they finally met up, everything was set into motion, starting with the actions of the Beherit Apostle.


Did u mean that the sarcifices of those poor refugees is necessary for the event to go on? If that is what u mean then if Mozgus wasnt killed by Guts then Griffith wouldnt be reborn?

Kinda confusing  ???
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Offline Walter

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2003, 02:23:30 AM »
Did u mean that the sarcifices of those poor refugees is necessary for the event to go on? If that is what u mean then if Mozgus wasnt killed by Guts then Griffith wouldnt be reborn?

Kinda confusing  ???
No, I said that there weren't Brands being dealt out. It was a mirror event, but wasn't an exact re-enactment. The deaths of Albion's villagers just mirrored the sacrifice of the Hawks.
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Offline himura_kenshin

Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2003, 01:36:03 AM »
the goat and mozgus got their power from the Beherit apostle!? ahhhhhhh... that clears that up... i was wondering what mozgus was, but.... Guts said he was different... and if i remember right, he didn't even make Guts brand bleed.... is a Beherit apostle really THAT different from a regular apostle? according to what we learned during the death of the count from gh, the more "evil" a demon or spirit is, the more it will make Guts brand bleed... or at least that's what my trans says. I suppose.. the Beherit wasn't really that evil, if you consider his request and sacrifice. Though i've heard it said that the people were the Beherit's sacrifice, puck said the only reason those spirits could exist there was because of Guts and Casca's brand. Makes sense, those brands always make a mess when they pass through a place where a lot of ppl have died, and the tower sure qualified for that. So i suppose it follows to say, if you're going to accept both of those theories, that a branded person had to be there for the festival to occur, by gh's plans. I personally think Guts is no longer part of the plans, but maybe only Casca was supposed to be there, not both her and Guts. Notice the demons let Casca live...

edit: eep... sorry for the semi-resurrection.. forgot to check the date.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 01:36:42 AM by himura_kenshin »

Offline Walter

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2003, 01:59:06 AM »
the goat and mozgus got their power from the Beherit apostle!? ahhhhhhh... that clears that up...
Look at the last page of Volume 19 or the first few pages of 20.  How could you miss that?

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is a Beherit apostle really THAT different from a regular apostle? according to what we learned during the death of the count from gh, the more "evil" a demon or spirit is, the more it will make Guts brand bleed... or at least that's what my trans says. I suppose.. the Beherit wasn't really that evil, if you consider his request and sacrifice.
You're thinking about this way too hard.  You're answering your own questions anyway.  

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So i suppose it follows to say, if you're going to accept both of those theories, that a branded person had to be there for the festival to occur, by gh's plans.
Yes.  The Reincarnation Eclipse mirrors the Birth Eclipse. Guts and Casca, the two remaining branded sacrifices had to be there.  Both to re-enact parts of the previous events and to bring out the demons that eventually serve as the mirror of the apostles from the past eclipse.  Causality is sexy.

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I personally think Guts is no longer part of the plans, but maybe only Casca was supposed to be there, not both her and Guts.
I used to think that too, then I read the series.   Read my above text and if you're still not convinced that Guts is still a part of Causality, then keep reading Berserk.
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Offline himura_kenshin

Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2003, 05:32:32 AM »
Hmmmmm.... I think you might be requiring the second eclipse to be too accurate of a mirror, right down to the characters involved. I think at least one branded member needed to be there for the sake of allowing the spirits of the dead to come out, not for the sake of being a mirror. Skully, i think, said that some things would be mirrored. If it had to be accurate right down to the characters, then who was mozgus representing? and why did a whole bunch of people survive, without being rescued, instead of only two people who did have to be rescued? I think it was only necessary for Casca to be there, and i don't think Guts is part of gh's plans, or at the very least not part of their original plans because grif said "you are only good as a sacrifice" and called him "only one man" or something. Seems to me that Guts slipped through, but they're just not concerned. Anyway, you're looking at this mirror thing a totoally different way than me, like it's a requirement for the festival to occur. It struck more more as say... a rainbow after rain, just something left behind from previous events.

Offline incognitoX

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2003, 07:10:00 AM »
Something I'm wondering about Griffith's new body..if he is struck down and killed will he revert back to his godhand form or once encarnated into flesh and dies, he's going straight to hell?
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Offline himura_kenshin

Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2003, 04:03:41 PM »
well nobody can really say for sure yet but i'd think when he's dead he's just as dead as any other apostle or human that dies.

Offline Walter

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2003, 06:15:48 AM »
Hmmmmm.... I think you might be requiring the second eclipse to be too accurate of a mirror, right down to the characters involved.
Right down to Serpico clutching Farnese's hand before she falls off the palm of the Hand of God, mirroring Griffith holdiong onto Guts in volume 12.  Yeah, Causality is pretty damned exact.

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If it had to be accurate right down to the characters, then who was mozgus representing? and why did a whole bunch of people survive, without being rescued, instead of only two people who did have to be rescued?
You're taking everything, including my explanation too literally.  Events were mirrored.  Period.  

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and i don't think Guts is part of gh's plans, or at the very least not part of their original plans because grif said "you are only good as a sacrifice" and called him "only one man" or something.
As Slan says in volume 13, "We aren't Gods, we can't forsee all possibilities."  

In other words, I'd bet my left nut that deep in the Abyss, Idea has a big wallscroll of Guts hanging behind its bed, which it gives googly eyes at every night.

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like it's a requirement for the festival to occur. It struck more more as say... a rainbow after rain, just something left behind from previous events.
And it's just a coincidence that the eclipse that birthed Femto mirrors the eclipse that rebirths Griffith?  No.

well nobody can really say for sure yet but i'd think when he's dead he's just as dead as any other apostle or human that dies.
Zodd's immediate appearance as his bodyguard in volume 21 proves to me how truly vulnerable Griffith is in his new physical body.

Then again, Im jumping to conclusions. As Kenshin says, there isn't a solid answer yet.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2003, 06:16:27 AM by Walter »
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Offline Aquedesin

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2003, 09:19:46 AM »
What really seem strange is what use it was to griffith to become a part of the gh if he was going to be reborn a few years later? In order to become stronger? And how can he know that by becoming a gh member he might be able to be reborn again as human later? And what bother me most is the fact that femto was a kind of spirit who control fate, so why would he want to be human again? In brief, why the second eclipse took place? Because of the wish of the Beherit apostle? Isn't that a bit too much?

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Offline Walter

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2003, 05:13:02 PM »
What really seem strange is what use it was to griffith to become a part of the gh if he was going to be reborn a few years later? In order to become stronger? And how can he know that by becoming a gh member he might be able to be reborn again as human later? And what bother me most is the fact that femto was a kind of spirit who control fate, so why would he want to be human again? In brief, why the second eclipse took place? Because of the wish of the Beherit apostle? Isn't that a bit too much?
Just use your head.
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Offline Aquedesin

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Re:please explain the second eclipse!
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2003, 09:05:57 PM »
Just use your head.

Ok, That is too much for me... :-[
« Last Edit: September 01, 2003, 09:06:28 PM by Aquedesin »

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