Author Topic: "Descent through hell"  (Read 2852 times)

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Offline deamonsonfire

"Descent through hell"
« on: April 20, 2011, 04:13:33 AM »
I've been re-reading my physical copies lately (got em all post-facto, never opened many before) and noticed a few things that will probably develop into other relevant posts in the future...but one thing I noticed is that Guts's "descent through hell". I quote this because when he first dawns the armor in Vol26 at the witches house, the skull knight and zodd get into a conversation and zodd asks SK if he is going to have Guts "walk the same path as you...to follow your footsteps down the path of hell".

That comment was always one that inspired curiosity as to how the SK became the SK as well as the Guts parallels and all that fun stuff... I didn't think it had any real relevance until today while rereading 319. Guts and Schierke are having a conversation as they enter the sea gods lair, Guts mentions it as the, "mouth of hell" and the "first level of hell" after she mentions the differences between it and the qilpoth.

So naturally...this leads me to wonder what exactly consitutes this "Hell" thats been acknowledged/alluded too by both apostles, SK, and now Guts. Is it a "level" of the astral realm?? Perhaps there are certain defining factors of this "hell" ?

Discuss!
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Online Walter

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Re: "Descent through hell"
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2011, 05:38:43 AM »
Guts was just speaking figuratively in 319. As for Zodd, we can't interpret his words too specifically, but we can surmise that he was also speaking figuratively. He meant that the path Guts was walking, using the armor, would spell his doom just as it did for the armor's previous owner, which was likely the Skull Knight. Schierke mentions the former owner bled to death while using it.

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Offline deamonsonfire

Re: "Descent through hell"
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2011, 05:49:17 AM »
Maybe im looking too hard. lol
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Online Walter

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Re: "Descent through hell"
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2011, 05:57:56 AM »
Maybe im looking too hard. lol
Well, there is a kind of hell in the Berserk universe: The Vortex of Souls http://www.skullknight.net/encyclopedia/glossary/glossary.php#Vortex

From Griffith's conversation with The Idea of Evil in Episode 83:

Quote
IoE: An ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls
A common consciousness that transcends individuality
Their collective consciousness
Its dark side is this swelling ocean
...
Griffith:  This terrifying thing? This... This looks like...

IoE: Hell. Some call it that.

But obviously, it's not what Guts or Zodd are referring to.
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Offline Conzeit

Re: "Descent through hell"
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2011, 09:59:37 PM »
How do you know they weren't talking about the Vortex of Souls? the definining factor of "Hell" as an idea is just the eternal damnation after death, and that's exactly what the Vortex of Souls has been shown to be. Guts is fated to go down that path, why wouldnt Skull Knight? the Skull Knight's current form comes from over-using the Berserker armor, and that armor's effects on Guts clearly show that they unleash the demon inside, it's counter intuitive to think somoene who abused the Berserker armor far more than Guts ever has would not go down that path. The only ones who have been shown to be able to stand up to apostles and not be fated for the Vortex are those like Flora or Schierke who employ magic, SK is not in that category, he needed the same armor as Guts to do it.

Online Walter

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Re: "Descent through hell"
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2011, 02:24:32 AM »
How do you know they weren't talking about the Vortex of Souls? the definining factor of "Hell" as an idea is just the eternal damnation after death, and that's exactly what the Vortex of Souls has been shown to be. Guts is fated to go down that path, why wouldnt Skull Knight?
Death for Guts means the Vortex, regardless of whether it's a result of his use of the armor or getting killed in battle. But the Vortex has no similar claim on SK, as far as we know. Even if it did/does, he's evaded the Vortex thus far, given that his personality is intact.

Quote
the Skull Knight's current form comes from over-using the Berserker armor,
You can't make that logical leap, unless you merely mean that in the big picture it killed him. What we know is that the Berserk's Armor killed its previous owner, and SK was a former owner. At some point after that, SK came to inhabit the armor we're now familiar with. But what happened to him between these two states is a complete unknown and open to a variety of possibilities.

Since we find ourselves here in Speculation Nation, I'll posit that I think it's possible his soul was transferred and became bound to his current armor. But we simply don't know.

it's counter intuitive to think somoene who abused the Berserker armor far more than Guts ever has would not go down that path.
Few nitpicky things here before we get into the idea of your post. "Abused" is the wrong terminology here. The armor's primary function is to envelop the user in its od, which unleashes their physical potential in battle. That's "using" the armor, not "abusing." Also, we can't say that the user who died used it "far more than Guts ever has." Guts may hold the record for longest-surviving user of the armor for all we know, because he's had such knowledgeable and powerful protectors like Schierke and the Moonlight Boy watching over him.

Again, as far as we can reason, Zodd is merely implying the obvious --  using the armor leads to death. Maybe you could more clearly spell out what you mean by saying the Vortex is involved?
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: "Descent through hell"
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2011, 08:32:31 PM »
That comment was always one that inspired curiosity as to how the SK became the SK as well as the Guts parallels and all that fun stuff... I didn't think it had any real relevance until today while rereading 319. Guts and Schierke are having a conversation as they enter the sea gods lair, Guts mentions it as the, "mouth of hell" and the "first level of hell" after she mentions the differences between it and the qilpoth.

You're not quoting what Guts & Schierke said properly, but beyond that there's absolutely no relation between Zodd's comment and theirs. Needless to say (or is it?) they're speaking of "hell" figuratively in episode 319. As for episode 226, Zodd is actually using a complex notion related to Buddhism, and the expression he uses does not exactly translates into "hell". It's not the same word in Japanese at all.

So naturally...this leads me to wonder what exactly consitutes this "Hell" thats been acknowledged/alluded too by both apostles, SK, and now Guts. Is it a "level" of the astral realm?? Perhaps there are certain defining factors of this "hell" ?

Like Walter said, none of the occurrences you mentioned refer to the actual closest equivalent there is to a hell in Berserk, which is the Vortex of Souls.

Maybe im looking too hard. lol

Or not hard enough.

How do you know they weren't talking about the Vortex of Souls? the definining factor of "Hell" as an idea is just the eternal damnation after death, and that's exactly what the Vortex of Souls has been shown to be.

We know because the word used to describe the Vortex of Souls as being "hell" in volume 3 is "地獄", whereas the expression Zodd uses is "冥府魔道". It's only translated as "hell" in English because the English language can't gracefully convey its proper meaning. Its literal meaning isn't that of "eternal damnation after death".

Guts is fated to go down that path

Zodd wasn't referring to the fact Guts is branded at all here, the scene itself makes it painfully obvious. He was commenting on Guts' use of the Berserk's armor. You're completely missing the point.

the Skull Knight's current form comes from over-using the Berserker armor

Just so it's clear: the Skull Knight is currently wearing an armor that isn't the Berserk's armor. That armor is his current "form", and it "comes" from wearing it.

that armor's effects on Guts clearly show that they unleash the demon inside

I suspect that you do not properly understand how the Berserk's armor functions and what it does exactly. I've posted a dozen times about it in the past, so I invite you to search for older posts on the subject. In any case, the Beast of Darkness, which is what you refer to as the "demon inside" here, is a psychological construct used to personify Guts' dark feelings. It is not the defining factor that is dooming Guts to end up as a part of the Vortex of Souls (that's the Brand).

it's counter intuitive to think somoene who abused the Berserker armor far more than Guts ever has would not go down that path.

What path? You're just confusing yourself here. I don't think you understand what Zodd was referring to; he was basically asking the Skull Knight if he planned for Guts to end up like him. To live in a world that isn't the "human world" ("a world where evil/magic resides"). Plain and simple. He wasn't referring to the Vortex of Souls. Skull Knight isn't a part of the Vortex of Souls at the moment. I honestly don't see what's so hard to get about this.

The only ones who have been shown to be able to stand up to apostles and not be fated for the Vortex are those like Flora or Schierke who employ magic

Actually I'm sorry to tell you but the word Zodd uses could possibly be applied to magic users like Flora or Schierke. And standing up to apostles has absolutely nothing to do with Zodd's comment, nor with the Berserk's armor. Serpico and Isidro have fought apostles too, you know. Casca even killed one, back in the day. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

SK is not in that category, he needed the same armor as Guts to do it.

Now you're clearly confused here. First off, there's no categories. We don't know much about the Skull Knight and that's that. Second, Guts could stand up to apostles without the Berserk's armor. He'd killed many, many of them long before he acquired it. Third, Guts is doomed to end up in the Vortex of Souls because he was sacrificed by Griffith during the Occultation ceremony. We've had no indications that wearing the Berserk's armor dooms anyone to end up in the Vortex so far.