Author Topic: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]  (Read 57072 times)

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Offline Griffith

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Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« Reply #400 on: August 30, 2017, 07:38:52 PM »
Spoilers ahead (why are you here if you haven't watched :schierke: )

This was how I felt spoiler tagging in the Twin Peaks thread. :ganishka:

Killing Littlefinger wasn't just horribly done, he shouldn't have died. Yes, he became redundant but it's completely the writers' fault for not being able to use the best character in the series well. Instead, he got fooled by a dumbass and her overpowered Mary Sue sister. This show's gotten pretty bad story-wise.

We've got a Littlefinger fan here! But yeah, it does feel like they just didn't know how to utilize him and that Littlefinger should have had much greater significance concerning the dangerous nature of man's ambition, particularly a "common" man that wants more (basically the flip side to Jon Snow). He didn't exactly wind up being "the most dangerous man in Westeros." Anyway, so apparently that room scene with the Stark sisters wasn't supposed to be so illogically misleading:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/game-of-thrones-cut-a-scene-that-wouldve-explained-that-1798622658

I would have preferred this despite how shitty it is for Arya's character (though I also don't care or think it required that she and her sister be constant role models of female empowerment or something) because at least it explains those inexplicable scenes, and Bran's absence, and shows the strength of the Stark kids when they come together (that almost passes for a theme here). Basically it makes the story arc go from a zero to at least having some tangible form. Also lame about Littlefinger's demise and how everything has been wrapped up in a nice little package is it pretty much elimates all conflict save the Epic Good Vs. Evil battle we know Good will win. At least some unexpected conflict in the North, the support of which Jon took for granted, would create some drama. Now the only drama after Jon and Dany roll in on a red carpet is if/when Bran & Sam tell Jon he's fucking his aunt (I bet they tell him and he doesn't tell Dany but gets all weird and when she finds out and that he knew it becomes a big shitty rom com 3rd act misunderstanding =).

Just a few days ago Griffith predicted they'd use Thormund to be the lone survivor to tell them about the Walkers breaching the Wall. Most things in this series are that predictable

Yep, but to be fair I predict tons of shit that never happens too, but it's a low risk practice, especially for stuff next season (see above), when nobody will remember how wrong I was anyway. :griffnotevil:

But yeah, it's all pretty pat and predictable, but the latter isn't necessarily a bad thing. Breaking Bad, and Berserk for that matter, are also highly predictable, but because the characters and arcs are so meticulously setup and supported towards a specific logical conclusion that a thoughtful viewer will naturally be able to anticpate where the storteller is going. Wheras these guys are admittedly writing the story backwards coming up with big, predictable payoffs and then trying to reverse engineer the plot to get there so it all comes out thin and contrived as hell. These guys have always been paint by numbers in their approach, and that was still impressive when they were painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, but now it's more like a landscape or bowl of fruit.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 08:02:00 PM by Griffith »

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« Reply #401 on: August 30, 2017, 09:30:36 PM »

Yep, but to be fair I predict tons of shit that never happens too, but it's a low risk practice, especially for stuff next season (see above), when nobody will remember how wrong I was anyway. :griffnotevil:


I live in the north, I'll remember. (Get it? ) Ahem, anyway, to answer your question to my previous post about my disliking the big reveal about Jon. I just think they should have left him a bastard. I felt the marrying Lyanna officialy part just to make Jon a real Targaryan and not a high bastard plain suck. Even more when you learn that his " real name" is Aegon Targaryan hinting that the babe that was killed all these years ago was not born from Elia Martell but from Lyanna. Of course this pisses me oof because I read the books and it's just a whole messy ployt fused and twisted together. Now I'm to blame for my own disapointment. I should have seen it coming.

If they wanted to put that plot into the story, they should have done it right and have the real Aegon in the show. But then again, they would have mess it up anyway.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« Reply #402 on: August 30, 2017, 11:35:13 PM »
I live in the north, I'll remember. (Get it? )



Quote
Ahem, anyway, to answer your question to my previous post about my disliking the big reveal about Jon. I just think they should have left him a bastard. I felt the marrying Lyanna officialy part just to make Jon a real Targaryan and not a high bastard plain suck.

Agreed, he should have had the pedigree but not the papers, as before. That way he embodies the unification of the north and south as well the dissolution of the classes. Oh well, I guess he's Prince Charming, after all!

Quote
Even more when you learn that his " real name" is Aegon Targaryan hinting that the babe that was killed all these years ago was not born from Elia Martell but from Lyanna. Of course this pisses me oof because I read the books and it's just a whole messy ployt fused and twisted together. Now I'm to blame for my own disapointment. I should have seen it coming.

If they wanted to put that plot into the story, they should have done it right and have the real Aegon in the show. But then again, they would have mess it up anyway.

I'm glad you bring this up because I've not seen the implications of this discussed beyond, "Hey Rhaegar already had a kid named Aegon that's funny lol" Well, as you point out, it's probably not just a coincidence or stupid bout of unoriginality (at least on Rhaegar's part)! Does this mean the Aegon in the books is indeed illegitimate, thus why they cut him? Does it mean Jon was always the real Aegon and the one killed in King's Landing a fake in any case? Did Lyanna learn the fate of the original baby Aegon and named Rhaegar's next son the same in accordance with his desire to have an heir by this name? Are they combining multiple plots from the books into one streamlined azor ahai plot for TV (could Aegon in the books be the legit azor ahai and they cut him =)? How badly does this fuck up the timeline of events that characters died/were born/named in? If it doesn't originate from GRRM somehow and the showrunners chose the name are they actually dumb and/or lazy enough to just use that one without any of these implications in mind? Anyway, I guess it worked since I've seen half a dozen worthless think pieces that somehow bring up the significance of the name without considering any of this.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 12:11:52 AM by Griffith »

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« Reply #403 on: August 31, 2017, 01:07:49 AM »
Book spoilers in case you haven't read them.

Well actually in the books Jon and Aegon are both two different characters. One's still at the Wall and the other has started taking over some castles with Jon Connington AND the golden company. And some random baby got to take the place of "Aegon" when they showed them to Robert. So since they never adapted that plot they just decided to make Jon the "real" Aegon, thus making a legitimate Targaryen with the secret mariage. As they decided to throw Euron way later in the story (when he should have died around the time Robb and Joffrey died, due to the leeches thing with Melisandre) and omitting the great character of Victarion. I could go on but I think we already where that leads.

And I don't think the Aegon in the books is illegitimate considering Connington's point of view. And this part was the big reveal of the fifth book.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« Reply #404 on: August 31, 2017, 02:06:29 AM »
You mean Balon, not Euron, right, because I thought he's still alive and very much looking like the big bad (how crazy would it be if they screw up Azor Ahai AND the Night King? =)

Anyway, I know Aegon's a separate character in the books, I just thought there was some question to his legitimacy and them cutting/combining him with Jon at least suggests he's not supposed to amount to much in the end. Of course, if he was going to die, there'd be no need to combine a legitimate Targaryen plot into Jon's character unless he's supposed to be legitimate in the books too. But I'm also totally willing to believe they just fucked up and cut out an important claimant to throne/end game character so they half-assed grafted him onto Jon because nothing makes sense anymore. If only they had, say, 7 more hours to estabish such a character! But they were too lazy to even put in the work required to properly break the story they already established. That's what the 7/6 episodes really signifies: the bare minimum.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« Reply #405 on: August 31, 2017, 10:20:24 AM »
You mean Balon, not Euron, right, because I thought he's still alive and very much looking like the big bad (how crazy would it be if they screw up Azor Ahai AND the Night King? =)


Yes, yes I meant Balon. (My bad, but they still introduced him way later in the series vs the book) I still prefer his personnality in the book though.


Anyway, I know Aegon's a separate character in the books, I just thought there was some question to his legitimacy and them cutting/combining him with Jon at least suggests he's not supposed to amount to much in the end. Of course, if he was going to die, there'd be no need to combine a legitimate Targaryen plot into Jon's character unless he's supposed to be legitimate in the books too. But I'm also totally willing to believe they just fucked up and cut out an important claimant to throne/end game character so they half-assed grafted him onto Jon because nothing makes sense anymore. If only they had, say, 7 more hours to estabish such a character! But they were too lazy to even put in the work required to properly break the story they already established. That's what the 7/6 episodes really signifies: the bare minimum.

Thing is, in the book we still "don't know" that Jon has Targaryen blood (wich in my opinion is the only thing that matters). And learning that the babe was never killed and is doing well and all was the big punch line. Now it doesn't mean that Aegon his gonna be the one sitting on the throne in the end though. I like the idea of a bastard rising anyway, but the lther thing is we still don't know if Martin is gonna revive Jon or keep him dead or switch him in Ghost as the prologue for book 5 was specifically talking about that kind of possibilty.

It be something though to learn that the Aegon in the book is just a ploy to take the throne for then reveal that it was Jon the real deal and put him on the throne, but I doubt that. They would not have gone into exile in Essos and leave the real one in a dangerous spot without having anyone knowing it. It would have been to risky for them to lose him. I guess we'll know in a few years when the Winds of winter will be out. ( saying years here because we know fuck all when it's gonna be out)

I just think they fused that plot together in the tv series just because Jon is a big character and they wanted to make him more then a bastard when he was already more than a regular bastard. I was well satisfied with just knowing he was a Starkgaryen... :ganishka:

And I pretty sure they kept that secret because Ned did not want his nephew to die since Robert was in a frenzy of killing all the Targaryen he could get his hands on. So makes sense to make him think that Jon was his own bastard son instead of Lyanna. It would have ended in a mess if he was to learn that.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 10:30:49 AM by jackson_hurley »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« Reply #406 on: August 31, 2017, 02:59:01 PM »
Yes, yes I meant Balon. (My bad, but they still introduced him way later in the series vs the book) I still prefer his personnality in the book though.

Well, they sure didn't do much with him on the show other than make him a stupid jerk that Theon listens to because... family? I swear, if I had Ned Stark as a father figure my whole life I wouldn't be looking to this guy to fill his shoes, "Did you pay the iron price for that!?" "You mean being a belligerent loser nobody can trust or like? No, in fact I did NOT." BTW, Theon's big moment of triumph sure was stupid and reductive, even for these guys (the ADVANTAGE of having no cock n' balls, huzzah!), and would have been better coming at just about any other opportunity he had to rise to the occasion. Frankly, I thought and was hoping he'd just be beaten to death there, impotently trying to help his sister but just being unable. THAT would have been a fitting end, but they went the predictable yet improbable route again. Also, those guys were basically going to go rape, pillage and live the good life but decide instead to basically march to their certain death over the result of a street fight? No wonder they're the worst culture in Westeros.

Thing is, in the book we still "don't know" that Jon has Targaryen blood (wich in my opinion is the only thing that matters). And learning that the babe was never killed and is doing well and all was the big punch line. Now it doesn't mean that Aegon his gonna be the one sitting on the throne in the end though. I like the idea of a bastard rising anyway, but the lther thing is we still don't know if Martin is gonna revive Jon or keep him dead or switch him in Ghost as the prologue for book 5 was specifically talking about that kind of possibilty.

It be something though to learn that the Aegon in the book is just a ploy to take the throne for then reveal that it was Jon the real deal and put him on the throne, but I doubt that. They would not have gone into exile in Essos and leave the real one in a dangerous spot without having anyone knowing it. It would have been to risky for them to lose him. I guess we'll know in a few years when the Winds of winter will be out. ( saying years here because we know fuck all when it's gonna be out)

That all makes sense, though normally logic would dictate that if Aegon were really going to be significant he'd be included in the show, but given the decision making of the showrunners recently it's hard to take their opinion at face value. I also feel like Martin might just change up a bunch of shit now out of spite. "Turns out Jon Snow IS dead, they burned his body, and R+L=FU!" :daiba:

I just think they fused that plot together in the tv series just because Jon is a big character and they wanted to make him more then a bastard when he was already more than a regular bastard. I was well satisfied with just knowing he was a Starkgaryen... :ganishka:

Yeah, as we've said, it is a bit strange that they're basically stripping Jon of his noble everyman status, one who rose by his own deeds, and likely turning him instead into a reluctant prince of destiny. It just completely changes the meaning of "the cream rising to the top" where he's concerned.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« Reply #407 on: August 31, 2017, 05:25:44 PM »
This is pretty much why I said it was a fan serviced season. Maybe I had the wrong choices of words but it feels to me that they are doing (the showrunners) what they would like to see in the books, which imo would suck if it turns out to be that in the end (which probably wont be the case considering the enormous change in  books.) Like the ridiculous part of the Iron bank siding with Cercei, which makes no fucking sense considering they are pissed off against the Lannister for the debt they owe them...

I just have the feeling that season 8 will just ruin my experience and I'll have to put asside my purist side again to be able to somewhat enjoy this series finale.

But like you said , I would not be surprised if Martin is gonna do last minute change to his book. Anyway he said himself if I remember correctly that a lot of stuff would not play out the same way that the show. (A little bit reassuring to be honest).
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 06:11:11 PM by jackson_hurley »

Offline ThePiedPiper

Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« Reply #408 on: September 30, 2017, 05:10:41 PM »
it was a fan serviced season.

There's been prevalent fan service since Season 4, and it completely swallowed the show after it. Take any Cersei scene in Season 2 and put it next to any scene of hers after Season 4. The writing has been terrible and fine, talented actors have been wasted. There's been generally much less nuance, finesse, message, and art after 4, which is a very bad thing considering the show as a whole has squandered the universe it has been given, and crafted what is now its long-running recurring theme of: life is horrible and cruel, there is no purpose, and there is no God (and if there is a god, he hates everyone). It hasn't just mistreated its source material (with characters missing and and plot points never fitted in); it has utterly defiled the source material.

Here's just a couple things that did not sit well with me: Brienne getting put into a situation in which she was able to find Stannis and kill him (in Season 5), Ramseys getting put into a situation where he is imprisoned and killed by his dogs while Sansa watches (in Season 6); it all happened too perfectly for me to remain immersed; they were plot points that were too clean that yielded absolutely nothing for the narrative. We should gain no satisfaction from conventional resolutions, but find it in unexpected places through interesting means.

Edit: I should have given an example as to what I meant by satisfaction from unexpected places. Joffrey being killed by Olenna when it was Robb Stark's revenge to take. It was completely unpredictable and out of place for the narrative. But it made complete sense when it was explained and it didn't feed into the idea of this fan service perfect justice/revenge plot.

I just have the feeling that season 8 will just ruin my experience and I'll have to put asside my purist side again to be able to somewhat enjoy this series finale.

I've forced myself to watch the show because I'd rather watch plot points unfold on TV than discover spoilers on the internet [or from yappy friends] about said plot points. We're really getting forced into this predicament.

I don't see any other viable option they could have went with. Putting the show on hiatus until they gain the source material would have been my wish, but with GoT being their golden goose, they would have milked the show dry until we were down to the marrow. And I think it's the showrunners who want to end it at Season 8. If it were up to HBO, we'd probably be getting more seasons than we could stomach.

But like you said , I would not be surprised if Martin is gonna do last minute change to his book. Anyway he said himself if I remember correctly that a lot of stuff would not play out the same way that the show. (A little bit reassuring to be honest).

I don't think George is going to change a single thing about the book. He said that some people have pieced together things in the books (many have theories, but only few have gotten it spot on) and he's said something along the lines of not changing the book 'just because someone has figured it out'.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 05:32:39 PM by ThePiedPiper »
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« Reply #409 on: September 30, 2017, 06:34:43 PM »
I agree the show went downhill after it's season 4 peak (and now without a luxurious safety net of source material to fall back on as in the early seasons), but I don't think the problem is that there's too much fan service or that it's not being deferential enough to the source material, critiques that lie heavily on the perceptions of fans, it's just that the show hasn't been good in and of itself since it got boring in 5, crazy in 6, and frantic in in 7. It's not going to be the same as the books, and I don't put the books on a pedestal anyway (they omitted something from the book: oh now it can't be a good!), it's that the show stopped following it's own internal logic and has suffered accordingly. Make it completely different from the books for all I care, but make it good, and not so pat, with every good guy getting their triumphant revenge and every villain their just deserts, as you say.