Osama Bin Laden : Dead

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Rhombaad said:
That being said, I didn't find myself in the streets cheering "U-S-A...U-S-A!!!" but I did feel pretty good about what happened when I went to bed last night.

That's about how I felt, there's simply no need for consternation here. If you have contempt for the barbarism of people cheering the death of another human being, just remember this man meticulously planned the deaths of thousands of human beings and is responsible for thousands more. So, while you're judging those relatively innocuous folk, don't forget to save the majority of your high minded contempt for him.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Griffith said:
If you have contempt for the barbarism of people cheering the death of another human being, just remember this man meticulously planned the deaths of thousands of human beings and is responsible for thousands more. So, while you're judging those relatively innocuous folk, don't forget to save the majority of your high minded contempt for him.
I never felt contempt for the people cheering, just a sense of disconnection. I can't understand the sudden joy someone is filled with when they learn that someone else was killed, regardless of the circumstances. A sense of closure, sure, I felt that. Justice being served, sure I felt that too. But, "GRAB ME A BEER HONEY, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" was not my immediate reaction. The effect of his death is particularly muddled for me, since we're unsure what kind of ripple effect this will cause, both positive and negative.
 
Walter said:
I never felt contempt for the people cheering, just a sense of disconnection. I can't understand the sudden joy someone is filled with when they learn that someone else was killed, regardless of the circumstances. A sense of closure, sure, I felt that. Justice being served, sure I felt that too. But, "GRAB ME A BEER HONEY, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" was not my immediate reaction. The effect of his death is particularly muddled for me, since we're unsure what kind of ripple effect this will cause, both positive and negative.
I tend to think the same, but then again, i never had a friend, or even just someone i know, killed in any way. Where i live, Bin Laden was never portrayed as the monster he was perceived by some. He was "just" the most iconic terrorist in the world, and if it wasn't for TV and internet, i would've never noticed him.
If this was different, if he was responsible for the death of say 1000 people of my home town, I think I would be pretty happy to hear the current news. I can see why a lot of people, especially in new york, react the way the do. Civilization should stand above this, especially considering the things we preach to the world about human rights and everything, but still.

That is not touching all the other aspects that are to this operation. Shouldn't he have been captured and put to court? Why fake a photo of him? Why dump his body into the ocean so fast? Was it really worth it in terms of the the consequences for terrorism in general? Has a state the right to pull something like this of? All of this has to and will be discussed at length in the following days, but in the end of everything the most wanted man in the world is dead, and i think it is ultimately a good thing.
 
Well, it's nice to see people have a civilized discussion about this. I've seen the news-updates on Youtube which, predictably enough, turned the place into a fucking cesspool of trolling and douchbaggery.
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
I can see where everyone is coming from. I agree with Walter this isn't something to celebrate with taking shots. Too many people have died for that to be the reaction to news he is dead. However; the monster is dead. I'm happy that some justice has been served.

I can only hope that the complete annihilation of Al Qaeda is a realistic goal some time in the future.

Shouldn't he have been captured and put to court?
If he is resisting and shooting back, no that is unrealistic.

Why dump his body into the ocean so fast?
Hard to recover a body when it is now in the bottom of a trench, deep under water.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Gaahl said:
Shouldn't he have been captured and put to court?
In an ideal scenario, probably. But if he was resisting and posed a threat, as evidenced by the ensuing firefight that led to his death, then the US didn't violate the Geneva Conventions.

Gaahl said:
Why dump his body into the ocean so fast?
Islamic practices:
Was it really worth it in terms of the the consequences for terrorism in general?
Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

Gaahl said:
Has a state the right to pull something like this of?
In short, yes. The US has been at war with al-Qaeda since September 2001. In this particular operation, US forces had the consent and help from local Pakistani forces. I let go some breath when Obama confirmed that Pakisanis were working WITH the US, and didn't have a problem with this intrusion into their country.

osama-death1.jpg

Obama, Biden, Clinton and other top White House officials watched the final moments of Osama's life on a live feed from the Navy Seals.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Walter said:
Obama, Biden, Clinton and other top White House officials watched the final moments of Osama's life on a live feed from the Navy Seals.

Thanks for posting that, Walter. They look so incredibly stressed. I can't imagine what those 40 minutes must have been like for those watching it go down.
 
Rhombaad said:
Thanks for posting that, Walter. They look so incredibly stressed. I can't imagine what those 40 minutes must have been like for those watching it go down.

Yeah. They've all got this "please-God, don't-let-the-Pakistanis-tip-him-off-this-time" look on their faces. And also, the fact that bin Laden, turns out, has been "hiding" in Abbottabad. Doesn't that arouse suspicions? Or better yet, even maybe confirms that some in the Pakistani government have been aiding and abetting al-Qaeda and bin Laden. A few members of Pakistan's military and as well as its Islamist government have openly admitted in the past how they have protected Taliban, so that they can be used for "rainy day." And Abbottabad isn't an isolated, Taliban-controlled lawless village in the Hindu Kush mountains. Very far from it actually. It's a well off and peaceful army town, where soldiers, trainees, and officers along with their families live and which also hosts numerous garrisons and military academies of the Pakistani army.

http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Aki/English/Security/Pakistan-Pakistani-security-was-providing-Bin-Laden-degree-of-cover-expert-says_311966496384.html
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Señor Caudillo said:
Yeah. They've all got this "please-God, don't-let-the-Pakistanis-tip-him-off-this-time" look on their faces. And also, the fact that bin Laden, turns out, has been "hiding" in Abbottabad. Doesn't that arouse suspicions? Or better yet, even maybe confirms that some in the Pakistani government have been aiding and abetting al-Qaeda and bin Laden. A few members of Pakistan's military and as well as Islamist government have openly admitted in the past how they have protected Taliban, so that they can be used for "rainy day." And Abbottabad isn't an isolated, Taliban-controlled lawless village in the Hindu Kush mountains. Far, far from it actually. It's a well off and peaceful army town, where soldiers, trainees, and officers along with their families live and which also hosts numerous garrisons and military academies of the Pakistan's army.

http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Aki/English/Security/Pakistan-Pakistani-security-was-providing-Bin-Laden-degree-of-cover-expert-says_311966496384.html
I admit, the fact that he was ultimately discovered in a "mansion" in Pakistan aroused my suspicious, but I won't pretend I know anything about the country, its circumstances, or this particular scenario enough to forward any real suspicion or speculation.
 
Walter said:
I admit, the fact that he was ultimately discovered in a "mansion" in Pakistan aroused my suspicious, but I won't pretend I know anything about the country, its circumstances, or this particular scenario enough to forward any real suspicion or speculation.

But you gotta admit, the very logic of Osama bin Laden being able to hide in the middle of an army town amidst all the soldiers and military bases, it's almost equivalent to Timothy McVeigh himself managing to find a sanctuary of his own in Lexington, VA, nearby a Virginia Military Institute.
 

Aphasia

ALL MYSTERIES MUST BE SOLVED
Walter said:
I know who bin Laden was, thanks. But we don't know how much power he actually held all these years. He was driven underground, forced to relocate and hide from the largest military force on the planet. He could have simply been a figurehead of the organization, with al-Zawahiri calling the operational shots. As for cheering for his death, I dunno, I just find it a little morbid and premature considering the nature of the wars we're fighting.

When Hitler died, it was cause for celebration because it truly signaled the end of the European Campaign of WWII. bin Laden's death isn't quite the same, because the war isn't the same. This will likely just be a footnote in the history books. But I guess we'll see in the coming months if this will truly change circumstances.
Well, US embassies worldwide were put on "high alert" following the announcement, according to CNN.

I was directing that more at the fact you came away with the notion he was just some "guy" from the presidents speech. Personally it seemed like he put a lot of emphasis on how big of a victory it was, mentioning multiple times how he was the leader of a terrorist organization, I'm curious as to how you came away with that notion? Whether or not he called the big shots is a good question, but he was indeed a big figure either way.

It is a strange war in the way that it's fought, you are right. It feels like a war that will never truly be over, and milestones are far and few between...so it's good people have some sense of progress. Anyways, I'm especially happy for the families that were harmed by him.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Awesome photo, Wally. I mock CNN, but they're all over the issues being raised here:

Possible positive effects:
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/05/02/cruickshank.osama.bin.laden/

A strong positive outlook:
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/02/al-qaeda-is-dead/?hpt=T2

Possible negatives/retaliation:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/02/bin.laden.precautions/index.html?hpt=T1

Morality of cheers, or lack thereof:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/02/is-it-morally-right-to-celebrate-bin-ladens-death/?hpt=T1

Questions about Pakistan:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/02/bin.laden.pakistan.knowledge/index.html?hpt=C2

9/11 family member not celebrating, wants U.S. accountability:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/05/02/gadiel.son.killed.bin.laden/index.html?hpt=T2

Possible long term political ramifications for Obama:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/02/how-much-will-bin-ladens-death-impact-obamas-re-election/

And yahoo on the board with some possible strategic ramifications for Afghanistan:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110502/ts_yblog_theenvoy/bin-laden-and-the-war-in-afghanistan-why-u-s-is-not-declaring-victory-yet


I feel the same way I did last night, this is a good thing and more significant than some are giving it credit. When you're fighting a war on an abstract idea, killing the symbol or embodiment of it is about the best thing you can do (too bad we can't assassinate "drugs"). Beyond a dead guy in Pakistan it basically rewrites the history of 9/11, though it's too early to absorb after a decade of enmity, death, failure, and malaise. Anyway, here's hoping for the best out of this, not the worst.
 

nomad

"Bring the light of day"
Beyond a dead guy in Pakistan it basically rewrites the history of 9/11, though it's too early to absorb after a decade of enmity, death, failure, and malaise. Anyway, here's hoping for the best out of this, not the worst.
A toast to that.
 

Aphasia

ALL MYSTERIES MUST BE SOLVED
Griffith said:
I feel the same way I did last night, this is a good thing and more significant than some are giving it credit. When you're fighting a war on an abstract idea, killing the symbol or embodiment of it is about the best thing you can do (too bad we can't assassinate "drugs"). Beyond a dead guy in Pakistan it basically rewrites the history of 9/11, though it's too early to absorb after a decade of enmity, death, failure, and malaise. Anyway, here's hoping for the best out of this, not the worst.

Very well said!

I somehow missed that photo Walter posted. Amazingly intense. And thanks for those links Griffith, good stuff.
 
Griffith said:
That's about how I felt, there's simply no need for consternation here. If you have contempt for the barbarism of people cheering the death of another human being, just remember this man meticulously planned the deaths of thousands of human beings and is responsible for thousands more. So, while you're judging those relatively innocuous folk, don't forget to save the majority of your high minded contempt for him.

This is probably the single greatest post I've read in ages. Thank you for posting it, Griffith.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Señor Caudillo said:
But you gotta admit, the very logic of Osama bin Laden being able to hide in the middle of an army town amidst all the soldiers and military bases, it's almost equivalent to Timothy McVeigh himself managing to find a sanctuary of his own in Lexington, VA, nearby a Virginia Military Institute.

On the other hand, the best hiding place can be in plain sight, where no one will look. That may be why it took 10 years to find him. And even if there was some collusion, it could have been local and limited for all we know.

Griffith said:
When you're fighting a war on an abstract idea, killing the symbol or embodiment of it is about the best thing you can do (too bad we can't assassinate "drugs").

I've always felt that the term "war" was kind of a misnomer in those cases.

Viral Harvest said:
That photo is epic.

Nothing against you, but I wish people would stop misusing that word. Aside from that, the looks on Obama and Clinton's faces convey the tension of the moment exceptionally well.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Aazealh said:
I've always felt that the term "war" was kind of a misnomer in those cases.

Yeah, even the terminology is symbolic, though better in this case in that there's actual warfare involved ("terror" being more the misnomer), unlike the war on drugs or poverty which are even more lost battles in the war on bullshit.

Anyway, while we wait for the death photo and this really becomes real, here's the reaction of our favorite liberal Hollywood New York news clowns, kind of a microcosm of the emotional reaction(s) thus far:

http://gawker.com/#!5797950/jon-stewart-celebrates-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden

http://gawker.com/#!5797955/stephen-colbert-has-been-ready-for-osama-bin-ladens-death-since-2002

Now that's some surprisingly unabashed and self-aware celebration of death! :isidro: More on that too:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20110503/bs_yblog_upshot/bin-laden-news-finds-pundits-forsaking-usual-comfort-zones
 

turkitage

ターク
I'll let Mr. King do the talking for me:

"Let us move now from the practical how to the theoretical why: why should we love our enemies? The first reason is fairly obvious. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence and toughness multiples toughness in a descending spiral of destruction."
-Martin Luther King, Jr
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
I preferred the fake Dr. King pro-Osama quote, more fitting of the false sentiment.
 
I felt the same disconnect mentioned earlier with the cheering of his death. Yes, I'm glad he's finally paid the price for thousands who were destroyed on 9/11 (and I don't just mean the people in the towers), but it was more a somber moment. The last 10 years haven't exactly been awesome and to me this feels like sort of the book-end I was hoping for from the last decade. Yes, I know it's not over, but at least most of the major players behind 9/11 itself have been brought to justice now.

The only thing that really bugged me about the celebrations were that most of the crowd outside the whitehouse looked like 18 to 20somethings. We're talking about people who were 7-9 years old when the towers fell. I realize they've had to grow up in what feels like a harsher world (not that they would know), but still. Any excuse to party I guess.
 
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