Author Topic: Berserk Saga Project News  (Read 758382 times)

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Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3075 on: May 07, 2013, 11:47:06 AM »
He reflected on it a few times, that's not what I call "constant".

 And the depth of his relationships with his "family" has very long ago surpassed that of those he had with his old comrades (for which that term was never used, by the way).
Had I been quoting a direct line from the manga I would have said "family" with double quotations. Using 'family' with single quotations simply denotes the use of the word family to describe people that were close to him, and acted as a family, without actually being one.

Can we say his relationship with his new comrades is that deep? Perhaps, but we have to examine the reasons why. The reason the bond Guts has formed with his new crew is so exquisite is because it represents him coming out of the other end of the proverbial tunnel that he entered after the Eclipse. The Black Swordsman arc introduces Guts as almost a sociopath, who cares only about killing monsters. Chronologically, the next time we see him, after the flashback, is the Lost Children story. Here we have Guts killing demons made from children, and at one point almost chops Jill in half in order to kill Rosine. Not to mention that the apostle he's fighting is somewhat sympathetic.

While things get somewhat lighter after that (thanks to Puck), we still have the impression that Guts is never going to go back to the way he was again. The fact that he was able to come out the other side of this darkness and find a new family, is made so extraordinary because of the scars left by his old family.

You also have to remember that most of the bonding between him and the Hawks took place off panel. He's been with his new family for what, a year? Less? He spent more than three years bonding with his old comrades and growing close to them, most of which we didn't get to see. And frankly, he's not exactly open with his new friends. The only ones who really know what happened to him are the ones who have been inside his mind. The only time he ever actually spoke to one of them about his past was when Puck listened to him tell Rickert. I mean this is only natural, given how painful it obviously is to talk about, but it's still a wall that prevents him from being fully open.

Let me ask you this. Would you agree that the Eclipse is one of the most significant moments in the series? If not the most significant? And if so, wouldn't it stand to reason that the Golden Age, as the story that culminates into the Eclipse has a great level of significance?

I'm not sure it's fair to say one arc is more significant than another.
I'm not saying necessarily that it is, just that an argument could be made for it.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3076 on: May 07, 2013, 02:16:35 PM »
Had I been quoting a direct line from the manga I would have said "family" with double quotations. Using 'family' with single quotations simply denotes the use of the word family to describe people that were close to him, and acted as a family, without actually being one.

That's great, although I have no interest in your special personal use of quotation marks. Guts' current companions aren't a real family, but he seems to consider them in such a way. He was close to some of his former comrades from the Band of the Falcon, but not in the exact same way.

Can we say his relationship with his new comrades is that deep?

Well, yes. Yes we can.

The reason the bond Guts has formed with his new crew is so exquisite is because it represents him coming out of the other end of the proverbial tunnel that he entered after the Eclipse.

There's more to it than that.

The Black Swordsman arc introduces Guts as almost a sociopath, who cares only about killing monsters.

That's not true, you're exaggerating. Even then he wasn't completely heartless or anything like that. Remember that this arc ends on a panel of him crying.

Chronologically, the next time we see him, after the flashback, is the Lost Children story. Here we have Guts killing demons made from children, and at one point almost chops Jill in half in order to kill Rosine. Not to mention that the apostle he's fighting is somewhat sympathetic.

While things get somewhat lighter after that (thanks to Puck), we still have the impression that Guts is never going to go back to the way he was again. The fact that he was able to come out the other side of this darkness and find a new family, is made so extraordinary because of the scars left by his old family.

I think you're misrepresenting things for the sake of your argument. Puck/Jill/Guts himself were already lightening things up during the Lost Children chapter, and you fail to mention Guts & Jill's relationship, preferring to settle for a dramatic "almost chopped her in half". Furthermore, Guts' return to sanity was rather progressive and the biggest early step after the Lost Children chapter would have to be his return to Godot's place after the Falcon dream and his son's subsequent warning. As for the "scars" you mention, it would be more apt to say the rape of the woman he loves and (by proxy) the murder of his comrades by someone he considered his friend and had just rescued was what left them.

You also have to remember that most of the bonding between him and the Hawks took place off panel. He's been with his new family for what, a year? Less? He spent more than three years bonding with his old comrades and growing close to them, most of which we didn't get to see. And frankly, he's not exactly open with his new friends. The only ones who really know what happened to him are the ones who have been inside his mind. The only time he ever actually spoke to one of them about his past was when Puck listened to him tell Rickert. I mean this is only natural, given how painful it obviously is to talk about, but it's still a wall that prevents him from being fully open.

Well he doesn't speak about it because he's been traumatized, as was shown times and times again. Anyway, there's a reason we see more interaction and bonding in less time with his new comrades than with his old ones. In addition, if we weren't shown something during the Golden Age arc, it's because it wasn't... significant.

Let me ask you this. Would you agree that the Eclipse is one of the most significant moments in the series? If not the most significant? And if so, wouldn't it stand to reason that the Golden Age, as the story that culminates into the Eclipse has a great level of significance?

I don't think the Occultation ceremony is the most significant moment of the series, nor would I take upon myself to define one. I invite you to read the post above yours, where I laid out what I think is a simple truth.

I'm not saying necessarily that it is, just that an argument could be made for it.

Arguments can be made for anything and everything, that doesn't mean much. If you want to take a stance on the issue then do so clearly.

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3077 on: May 07, 2013, 02:54:40 PM »
That's great, although I have no interest in your special personal use of quotation marks.
Well I was responding to the fact that you seemed to have been addressing my reference to the Hawks as Guts' family, saying they were never called that in the manga, to which I was telling you that I never claimed they were.

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There's more to it than that.
Obviously, but that is where the comparison to the Hawks that I first brought up comes up the strongest. The tunnel of darkness that Guts entered takes him from the death of his first comrades, to his acceptance of his new ones and the realization that he isn't as lost as he thought he would be.

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That's not true, you're exaggerating. Even then he wasn't completely heartless or anything like that. Remember that this arc ends on a panel of him crying.
I said he was introduced as a bit of a sociopath, the crying bit doesn't come until the end, right before we get his backstory. He's meant to be built up as such a dark character, until we see the tears and then we get his backstory and we find out why he was the way that he was.

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I think you're misrepresenting things for the sake of your argument. Puck/Jill/Guts himself were already lightening things up during the Lost Children chapter, and you fail to mention Guts & Jill's relationship, preferring to settle for a dramatic "almost chopped her in half". Furthermore, Guts' return to sanity was rather progressive and the biggest early step after the Lost Children chapter would have to be his return to Godot's place after the Falcon dream and his son's subsequent warning.
Jill is one of my favorite characters in the series, I wouldn't overlook her. Her monologue after Guts leaves the misty valley might be my favorite part of the entire story. It's true Guts was starting to bind with. However he also used her as bait, held her hostage, and almost cut her in half... twice.

His return to sanity was a gradual process, and it's true Jill was a part of it, and his inner monologue when he was in Godo's cave was maybe the biggest part of it. However to me, the real turning point was when he laughed after Puck saved his life from the ghosts. For one thing, it was the first time he accepted a companion since the Eclipse. But also it was also kind of the first light of dawn. I always considered the Lost Children story his darkest hour, post eclipse. When he was leaving the forest he could barely stand, and was as psychologically exhausted and he was physically. The spirits were taunting him for killing the children and calling him a monster, saying his rage would eventually turn him into a real monster just like Griffith. That was one of the creepiest/best lines in the series, when they're talking about his rage;

"The black beast, ever it hungers, and the more you feed it, the more it hungers."

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As for the "scars" you mention, it would be more apt to say the rape of the woman he loves and (by proxy) the murder of his comrades by someone he considered his friend and had just rescued was what left them.

The point was that they were caused by the Eclipse, which was only able to be so traumatic because of the bonds he built during the Golden Age with Casca and Griffith, as well as the rest of the Hawks.

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Arguments can be made for anything and everything, that doesn't mean much. If you want to take a stance on the issue then do so clearly.

I wouldn't take an absolute stance like that. Literature of any kind is subjective, it's not for me to say X is more important than Y. What I get out of the series might be completely different than what you get out of the series.

Online Johnny Apples

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3078 on: May 07, 2013, 03:29:18 PM »
Regarding Puck, Casca, Serpico and Roderick and Guts' other close companions that he's got with him now, I'd say that they are the perfect definition of what the great crime novelist and children's rights advocate Andrew Vachss would call Family of Choice.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3079 on: May 07, 2013, 06:17:11 PM »
Well I was responding to the fact that you seemed to have been addressing my reference to the Hawks as Guts' family, saying they were never called that in the manga, to which I was telling you that I never claimed they were.

You did use the same word. I just clarified it in passing.

The tunnel of darkness that Guts entered takes him from the death of his first comrades, to his acceptance of his new ones and the realization that he isn't as lost as he thought he would be.

Well, there's more to it than that, like I said.

I said he was introduced as a bit of a sociopath, the crying bit doesn't come until the end, right before we get his backstory.

There's also the part where he saves Puck at the very beginning, then the meeting with Colette and what ensued, then Vargas and his conflicted feelings about him...

Jill is one of my favorite characters in the series, I wouldn't overlook her. Her monologue after Guts leaves the misty valley might be my favorite part of the entire story. It's true Guts was starting to bind with. However he also used her as bait, held her hostage, and almost cut her in half... twice.

My point was that there were some pretty light-hearted moments during that chapter (and before) and that it didn't just start becoming less "dark" afterwards.

I always considered the Lost Children story his darkest hour, post eclipse. When he was leaving the forest he could barely stand, and was as psychologically exhausted and he was physically. The spirits were taunting him for killing the children and calling him a monster, saying his rage would eventually turn him into a real monster just like Griffith.

Well, it's probably his darkest hour as far as the way it's depicted goes. I always considered it to be the very beginning of the manga myself: him going to any length whatsoever to kill an apostle, before he had even met Puck. That fateful meeting stirred him in the right direction, every so slightly away from the darkness.

That was one of the creepiest/best lines in the series, when they're talking about his rage;

"The black beast, ever it hungers, and the more you feed it, the more it hungers."

That's a pretty shitty translation of that line, unfortunately. The beast is not described as "black" here, but as something more like "insatiable", or more precisely "having an unquenchable (bottomless) thirst". And as mentioned, it's described as "thirsty" in direct reference to the blood Guts spills. The more he is bloodied, the more he/it thirsts (as of course, as ever, the line between the Beast of Darkness and Guts himself is very thin).

The point was that they were caused by the Eclipse, which was only able to be so traumatic because of the bonds he built during the Golden Age with Casca and Griffith, as well as the rest of the Hawks.

Here's the problem with that comparison though: the fact there's a clear distinction being made here between his lover Casca (who is still with him), the betrayer Griffith (who is now his arch enemy) and the rest of the guys. That's not to say the Band of the Falcon wasn't important to Guts, because it certainly was and immensely so, but it wasn't a "family" of close people like what he has now.

I wouldn't take an absolute stance like that. Literature of any kind is subjective, it's not for me to say X is more important than Y. What I get out of the series might be completely different than what you get out of the series.

Alright, then we can put this off-topic discussion to rest, as no one's making the argument you mentioned.

Offline Walter

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3080 on: May 07, 2013, 07:28:55 PM »
I said he was introduced as a bit of a sociopath, the crying bit doesn't come until the end, right before we get his backstory. He's meant to be built up as such a dark character, until we see the tears and then we get his backstory and we find out why he was the way that he was.
I'm afraid that's a misread of the scenario and the way the character was presented. Consider when Guts reluctantly slashed Collette in Volume 1. The dread on his face when he saw she was possessed is quite plain. He knew what he would have to do, and he was terrified of it. He even prolonged the attack until even after she stabbed him because he wasn't prepared to do it. As a result, he was shaken from battle and had to reassert himself. These aren't the reactions I'd expect from a sort-of-sociopath.

From the beginning, Guts was presented as fundamentally a good guy, just shrouded in darkness as a result of his journey. You could even argue that's why Puck sticks around with him in those early days, despite his treatment. Calling him a sociopath, or even a BIT of one is overstating things.

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What I get out of the series might be completely different than what you get out of the series.
See the above.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3081 on: May 07, 2013, 07:58:04 PM »
Maybe sociopath was the wrong word. My point is that he's depicted as a kind of a jerk. Of course he had redeeming aspects, but seeing the result of his insanity before you see the cause makes it easier for a first time reader to wonder what could have happened that made him that way.

That's a pretty shitty translation of that line, unfortunately. The beast is not described as "black" here, but as something more like "insatiable", or more precisely "having an unquenchable (bottomless) thirst". And as mentioned, it's described as "thirsty" in direct reference to the blood Guts spills. The more he is bloodied, the more he/it thirsts (as of course, as ever, the line between the Beast of Darkness and Guts himself is very thin).
I was just reciting it from memory and paraphrasing a bit, my actual manga volume says "Black, black, the beast of darkness. It thirsts, more and more it thirsts. The more blood in which it bathes the more it does thirst. The beast has an insatiable appetite. As it thirsts you kill, and as you kill it thirsts. The blood must flow, so keep killing. It will still thirst. Forever. All alone. Always, always, always, always."

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Here's the problem with that comparison though: the fact there's a clear distinction being made here between his lover Casca (who is still with him), the betrayer Griffith (who is now his arch enemy) and the rest of the guys.
To be fair, you can't really say that Casca is still with him, at least not like she used to be. He certainly opened up more to her more than he did to any of his current companions, and she represents the biggest loss of what he had in the Golden Age. What happened with Griffith isn't so much a loss, but the fact that he was his friend made the betrayal that much worse, so the bond they forged during the Golden Age still plays a big part in his later actions.

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Alright, then we can put this off-topic discussion to rest, as no one's making the argument you mentioned.
If you wish, I hope I wasn't making waves or anything. I didn't mean to derail the thread.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3082 on: May 07, 2013, 10:25:39 PM »
I was just reciting it from memory and paraphrasing a bit

Ok, I was afraid it was actually DH's work.

To be fair, you can't really say that Casca is still with him, at least not like she used to be. He certainly opened up more to her more than he did to any of his current companions, and she represents the biggest loss of what he had in the Golden Age.

Not like she used to be, no, but she still is and has been a huge developmental factor for Guts and his current group. In that regard her presence is extremely determinant, in spite of her state (and in some ways because of it).

If you wish, I hope I wasn't making waves or anything. I didn't mean to derail the thread.

It's Ok, but a discussion that spans pages is better off in its own thread. This one's already too long as it is.

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3083 on: May 07, 2013, 11:21:59 PM »
Man, I'm really starting to wish I could go to this movie premiere in San Francisco. They're giving away a copy of the first manga volume autographed by Miura.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3084 on: May 07, 2013, 11:47:29 PM »
Man, I'm really starting to wish I could go to this movie premiere in San Francisco. They're giving away a copy of the first manga volume autographed by Miura.

Shit, now that's what I call an incentive. I'd pay to get something like that.

Offline Truder

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3085 on: May 08, 2013, 01:09:41 AM »
if they showed all three movies i would have definitely gone. hopefully in the future they will show all three so i can get all the cringing over with at once. :troll:

Offline Dar Klink

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3086 on: May 08, 2013, 05:51:08 AM »
Man, I'm really starting to wish I could go to this movie premiere in San Francisco. They're giving away a copy of the first manga volume autographed by Miura.

SHIIITTT! Now that makes me wanna go really badly. I can sit through two dubbed movies for that...

Offline SrCraneo

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3087 on: May 08, 2013, 09:42:43 AM »
Is there a source on that? I could go... but I really don't want to waste my money on shitty movies :(

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New People Cinema will be raffling off items such as autographed pamphlets, figures, cell phone straps, and an artbook at the screening.

Neon Alley viewers will also have a chance to win one of 50 production art from the movie.

That's all I could find

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3088 on: May 08, 2013, 10:25:30 AM »
Is there a source on that? I could go... but I really don't want to waste my money on shitty movies :(

That's all I could find
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=653384931344860&set=np.67595258.1616688262&type=1&theater&notif_t=notify_me

Now that I've actually looked at the picture Idk 100% if it's Miura's or not. I initially just heard about this from a buddy of mine. Does anybody know how he signs his name?

Even if I didn't like the movies I would still wanna go, just for the experience. I've wanted to take a road trip for a while, and it would be cool to get to hang out with other Berserk fans in person. Unfortunately I live literally as far away from San Francisco as you can get without leaving the continental United States, and I have finals that week.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3089 on: May 08, 2013, 11:10:15 AM »
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=653384931344860&set=np.67595258.1616688262&type=1&theater&notif_t=notify_me

Now that I've actually looked at the picture Idk 100% if it's Miura's or not. I initially just heard about this from a buddy of mine. Does anybody know how he signs his name?

Yes, that is his signature. However it's disappointing, albeit I feared it would be as such, that it is a Dark Horse volume that is signed.

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3090 on: May 08, 2013, 11:48:38 AM »
Yes, that is his signature. However it's disappointing, albeit I feared it would be as such, that it is a Dark Horse volume that is signed.
Still pretty cool. Id frame a used napkin if he signed it for me.

Offline SrCraneo


Offline Inga-no-Nagare

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3092 on: May 10, 2013, 03:53:58 PM »
There's an anime festival in my country right now (http://www.animefest.eu/JAFF7/kava.php?&lang=en). Among other movies, they're also showing all three Berserk movies. 5 EUR per movie, which is an okay enough price. They also played the 1st movie last year, which I watched then, and I watched the 2nd and 3rd one this year.

Honestly, while the movies are somewhat missing what made the manga so damn unforgettable - its strong psychological and philosophical overtones - I thoroughly enjoyed all three movies. I'm of the opinion that the movies work well as a sort of supplementary material to the manga, which contains the story in its full glory. Sure enough, there's some parts where the CGI looks awkward and clunky, but overall, I was impressed with the visuals - the 100 man battle in Pt. 2 and the fight with Silat in Pt. 3 were awesome, IMO.

I liked the music as well. Like many Berserk fans, I'd appreciate an OST fully made by Hirasawa most, but Sagisu did impressively enough. Pt. 1 had some very captivating orchestral songs (Des Liens Solides and Avant La Tempete in particular) and parts of the music of Pt. 3 are somewhat reminiscent of Hirasawa's stuff (especially Bruit de Pierre) although there's lots of quite different stuff as well. My friend who I went to watch Pt. 3 with (a fellow Berserk fan) HATED the song that it had during the climax (literally) of the Eclipse (Sonate pour piano nš 23, can be heard here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DuoUYwiJms ), she thought it was too involving and interactive and didn't let one get into the scene, but I think it worked really well. Oh well, I guess there's bound to be strong opinions about that.

There were some omissions that were a let down for me. Particularly (1) the Bonfire of Dreams, (2) Casca's memories about the case of Griffith and Gennon and (3) Zodd's short appearance during the Doldrey battle, which would've fit into Pt. 2. (Would've been fkn awesome to have Wyald in Pt. 3 also, but properly putting that in there would need a minimum of half an hour, so I'm okay with them leaving that out.) Oh, and the voice acting of all three main characters (Guts, Griffith, Casca) was better in the '97 series, I think..

But I'm on the whole pleased about how they dealt with stuff that did make it into the movies. Three exceptions: (1) Zodd's scene in Pt. 1, which lacked the horror effect it had in the manga and the '97 anime, (2) Corkus having a strong comic relief character vibe and (3) the goddamn dance scene in Pt. 2. :P Other than that, I don't recollect anything that I'd rather they would'nt've put in the movies.

Looking forward to further installments, anyway.

Offline Lukis

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3093 on: May 11, 2013, 05:32:21 AM »
That ost which as you said played during climax of third movie ,definetly sounds like something Evangelion rebuilds would have at a breather moment. I think Sagisu was composing music for Eva's too ,that's why they are so similiar I guess. Also ,you probably won't have a way to tell but did you saw R-18 or R-15 version and how explicit was it?

Offline Inga-no-Nagare

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3094 on: May 11, 2013, 06:59:48 AM »
That ost which as you said played during climax of third movie ,definetly sounds like something Evangelion rebuilds would have at a breather moment. I think Sagisu was composing music for Eva's too ,that's why they are so similiar I guess.

He sure was. The soundtracks (of the Eva and Berserk movie series) have songs that are similar to the sound of the other soundtrack, but each has songs that are quite different as well. All in all, I'd say he did a good job with keeping them separate enough.

Also ,you probably won't have a way to tell but did you saw R-18 or R-15 version and how explicit was it?

I talked with the organizer of the fest who said they had the same version that's playing in theaters in Japan, which she assumed is the uncensored version, but now that I'm reading this, it seems like that must've been the censored version after all. Can't remember hearing that song Breakthrough anywhere in the movie (doesn't seem like it'd fit with Berserk anyway). The visually most gruesome thing I remember is the eating of the band members during the Feast. There was no genital showing though ('cept for Slan's prominent pubes  :slan:) and the climax of the Eclipse was not quite as explicit as it was in the manga. Still, it was powerful and explicit enough, I'd say.

Offline puppet12ca

Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3095 on: May 15, 2013, 02:10:40 PM »
review for the dubbed version of the second film

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/berserk/the-golden-age-arc-ii/the-battle-for-doldrey

nothing really new to report just that the dubbing is supposed to be mostly okay

I also could not help getting the impression the reviewer has not read the manga after reading this

but in the absence of any other berserk related news I enjoyed reading this

Offline Slime_Beherit

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3096 on: May 15, 2013, 02:43:59 PM »
"Pervasive misogyny that cannot be totally written off as a product of the medieval setting." -from the ANN review. I can only really think of 2 instances where one can come to that conclusion. When Casca is told to lie with Guts and her "oh no my period moment". I don't think thats enough to say its misogynistic :T

Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3097 on: May 15, 2013, 03:12:40 PM »
Could be referring to Adon's dialog perhaps?
At the end of time, a moment will come when just one man remains. Then the moment will pass. Man will be gone. There will be nothing to show that we were ever here... but stardust.

Offline Walter

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3098 on: May 15, 2013, 04:00:02 PM »
"Pervasive misogyny that cannot be totally written off as a product of the medieval setting." -from the ANN review.
Likely referring to Adon, who attempts to demoralize Casca on two occasions for being a woman on the battlefield. But this statement is kind of ridiculous. The character is just an ignorant asshole. He put Casca down and refused to accept that she was a worthy opponent because of her gender. It ended up getting him killed. What more is there to say?
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« Reply #3099 on: May 16, 2013, 01:09:22 AM »
Video by Viz showing the raffle thing, fan reactions, etc. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB-IacwaTv8&feature=youtu.be
At the end of time, a moment will come when just one man remains. Then the moment will pass. Man will be gone. There will be nothing to show that we were ever here... but stardust.