Author Topic: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation  (Read 14251 times)

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Offline Walter

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Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« on: July 20, 2011, 01:01:07 AM »
In an ideal scenario, the new movies will have plenty of time to properly adapt Berserk. However, given the pressures of runtime constraints and the length of the Golden Age, there are bound to be cuts and changes made to squeeze everything in. This has been a popular topic since the project was first announced. Everyone has an opinion on the matter, so let's lay it out on the table in one big thread instead of cluttering the main one.

In short: "What do you expect will be cut from the anime project to make it work."

Here's where I stand on this issue. Even with three movies being set in the Golden Age, I think because it's a theatrical adaptation, they will have to set a consistent mood throughout much of the trilogy. I believe among the first casualties of such an adaptation will be comedy.

The quick, comedic asides Miura uses are perfectly suited to comics. He often relegates these moments to small portions of panels. They're rarely the focus, but they add to the atmosphere of a scene significantly. A quick perusal of the Golden Age will show you just how often he uses these moments to lighten the mood. However, such quick shifts in tone don't work well for a movie. I imagine they'd want to set a consistent tone for a given scene. And that could mean cutting anything that seemed like an aside in the manga.

So that could mean... Guts and Griffith playing in the water? CUT. Those funny bits between Guts and Casca in Volume 10, following the waterfall scene? CUT. Guts playing ring toss with Silat? CUT.

From what we've seen of the project thus far, it seems to be adopting a super-serious tone. While that's in line with the overall atmosphere of the manga, Miura certainly allows time to space the drama with some comedic breathing room here and there. I don't think this movie will afford itself those moments. It's got to get MOVING. All this being said, I DO expect Puck to make his scheduled appearance just before the Eclipse.

None of this means that the anime will be bad, or a failure. But it does mean that those little moments are going to be missed.

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Offline Griffith

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2011, 04:34:18 PM »
At first I thought this thread was titled Causalities of a Berserk Adaptation. :SK:

On this subject my first thoughts go to Wyald. Not that he'll necessarily be cut, though I'd feel a lot better if he appeared in some of the promotional material, but he'll probably be neutered given the difficulties portraying him. I mean, his introductory scene is an orgy where he strangles his partner during climax. Then, after his brutal prison back story, the next time we see him in action he rapes and murders the family that aided the Falcons escape (I guess they should focus on the back story =). I wouldn't be surprised he if just sort of shows up unceremoniously. Then there's his infamous giant spiky penis-tongue... I guess what I'm saying is I'm having a hard time imagining these things on the big screen in what's otherwise going to be a pretty heroic medieval story to that point, even with assassinations and torture. In any case he's going to be a challenge, and removing those horrific behaviors and toning down his vulgar personality could sort of reduce him to an expendable Zodd derivative. He could still serve his purpose as a monstrously strong opponent, but he probably won't be nearly the monster.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2011, 04:45:34 PM »
At first I thought this thread was titled Causalities of a Berserk Adaptation. :SK:

On this subject my first thoughts go to Wyald. Not that he'll necessarily be cut, though I'd feel a lot better if he appeared in some of the promotional material, but he'll probably be neutered given the difficulties portraying him. I mean, his introductory scene is an orgy where he strangles his partner during climax. Then, after his brutal prison back story, the next time we see him in action he rapes and murders the family that aided the Falcons escape (I guess they should focus on the back story =). I wouldn't be surprised he if just sort of shows up unceremoniously. Then there's his infamous giant spiky penis-tongue... I guess what I'm saying is I'm having a hard time imagining these things on the big screen in what's otherwise going to be a pretty heroic medieval story to that point, even with assassinations and torture. In any case he's going to be a challenge, and removing those horrific behaviors and toning down his vulgar personality could sort of reduce him to an expendable Zodd derivative. He could still serve his purpose as a monstrously strong opponent, but he probably won't be nearly the monster.

Maybe they would just cut right begore we see an actual rape scene and let us imagine the rest...

Offline Griffith

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2011, 05:00:32 PM »
Maybe they would just cut right begore we see an actual rape scene and let us imagine the rest...

I knew you guys would cheer me up! =) Yeah, that makes obvious sense, I'm just coming from a place of skepticism. I worry there's an overall saturation point with time and Wyald's challenging behavior where he either becomes too unseemly to them to be worth it or they completely castrate him.


More generally on the subject of edits, I think we'll lose some of the depth and exposition of the court intrigues. At least, I'd rather they make sacrifices with some of those scenes, nobles' opinions of the Falcons or setups, rather than the payoffs or any other main events. Fortunately, many of those scenes are necessarily repetitious for the sake of reminding the reader what's going in a multifaceted long form story, and for the purposes of a film are expendable and easily reduced or combined, both to make time and quicken the pace.

Offline Sammoniac

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2011, 05:12:17 PM »
In any case he's going to be a challenge, and removing those horrific behaviors and toning down his vulgar personality could sort of reduce him to an expendable Zodd derivative. He could still serve his purpose as a monstrously strong opponent, but he probably won't be nearly the monster.

I believe that almost anything can be rendered tolerable for a mature mainstream audience. More hardcore aspects of the story can still be portrayed with the use of narratives and visual tricks, hiding the more deranging details and putting emphasis on the events and circumstances of the scenes (using narratives, sound, silhouettes, shadows and subtle imagery). Of course, if the theme of the scene itself is too taboo for their liking (which may be the case with pedophilia), it may never be able to make it in the movie.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that if they have some good storytelling and visual skills, it may be possible that we experience many scenes that were cut in the old anime. Many mainstream movies contain scenes that are surprisingly deranging nowadays. Japanese ones are no exception. I don't think that seeing an ugly monster penis is that much of a deal, given the tone and aspects of a dark fantasy story like Berserk.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 05:57:43 PM by Sammoniac »

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2011, 05:42:58 PM »
In addition to cutting some of Wyald's section, I wouldn't be surprised if they cut some of the stuff between the King of Midland and Charlotte. I just can't see him licking her breast up on the big screen. Maybe in an OVA (they showed some pretty deranged stuff in one of the latest Hellsing OVAs), but not in a theatrical film. Who knows, though?

Offline A.C

Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2011, 07:04:27 PM »
They're going to need Wyald for the transition to what Berserk is mainly about; Ruthless apostles and Apostle slaying. Especially if they skip the Black Swordsman arc and jump straight into the past. To even water it down would be a bad decision, unless they plan to water everything down, but then it wouldn't be BERSERK! The gore, the ugly demons and the sex/rape are going to have to appear at some point, so they really should introduce it as soon as possible. Otherwise they risk alienating newcomers between the theatrical movies and the follow up OVAs (if they plan to go about it that way). Heck, there are even fans of the '97 anime that don't like the manga because it's all about "Monster hunting."

Any bad decision they might make wouldn't surprise me, but they did say "The Berserk Saga Project aims to include all the original episodes of the spectacular series."

Not sure what exactly they are referring to, but Wyald did appear in several "episodes", even an entire volume of the manga. But I sure hope they're not referring to the episodes of the '97 anime. If they're going to skip an arc we didn't even see in '97 then they might as well not do this at all.

Offline Truder

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2011, 07:06:22 PM »
I wonder what they will do with the Guts & Casca's sex scene?

will they cut just before and leave THAT to the imagination too(like in the old anime)? unacceptable!  :puck:

I can understand them cutting down some "iffy" scenes, but I wouldn't be too surprised if they cut down Guts and Casca's intimate moment too (I hope not). Hopefully they will keep the funniness from Casca and Guts' new relationship. :ganishka:

« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 07:29:32 PM by Truder »

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 07:49:51 PM »
They're going to need Wyald for the transition to what Berserk is mainly about; Ruthless apostles and Apostle slaying.

What a terrible misrepresentation of the series.

But I sure hope they're not referring to the episodes of the '97 anime. If they're going to skip an arc we didn't even see in '97 then they might as well not do this at all.

Nothing we've heard so far indicates any connection to the '97 series besides the source material. They were referring to the manga, not the original television series.

I wonder what they will do with the Guts & Casca's sex scene?

will they cut just before and leave THAT to the imagination too(like in the old anime)? unacceptable!  :puck:

I really hope they don't cut the love scene between Guts and Casca. They might have to edit it a bit, but if we're going by what the producers have said, then they're going to be staying as faithful to the manga as possible, and that is a critical scene. The pain and guilt Guts was still experiencing at that point (due to murdering Gambino and having been sold out by him) is extinguished by Casca. I can't imagine they'd leave out something that important.

I'd be really dismayed if they took all the humor out of the series, as well. The asides I can understand, because it's hard to convey them in an animation without making things look awkward, but to cut out all the humor and leave us with a "serious" version would be too much for me. So little is shown in the trailer, though, so I think it's too early to jump to any major conclusions about the exclusion of Miura's sense of humor.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 08:14:18 PM »
Even with three movies being set in the Golden Age, I think because it's a theatrical adaptation, they will have to set a consistent mood throughout much of the trilogy. I believe among the first casualties of such an adaptation will be comedy.

The quick, comedic asides Miura uses are perfectly suited to comics. He often relegates these moments to small portions of panels. They're rarely the focus, but they add to the atmosphere of a scene significantly. A quick perusal of the Golden Age will show you just how often he uses these moments to lighten the mood.

I agree that these comedic moments are at risk and that also worries me, because they add depth to the experience in their own way. To not make the series super ultra dark and serious was always a deliberate choice of Miura. It allows for a delicate balance and a certain completeness that cannot be replaced otherwise.

More generally on the subject of edits, I think we'll lose some of the depth and exposition of the court intrigues. At least, I'd rather they make sacrifices with some of those scenes, nobles' opinions of the Falcons or setups, rather than the payoffs or any other main events. Fortunately, many of those scenes are necessarily repetitious for the sake of reminding the reader what's going in a multifaceted long form story, and for the purposes of a film are expendable and easily reduced or combined, both to make time and quicken the pace.

Hmm, they can compress some of these for sure, but there's no denying that removing too much would be a big loss, as these scenes add to the depth of the setting in general by showing how the rest of the world reacts to the main cast's actions and ambitions.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that if they have some good storytelling and visual skills, it may be possible that we experience many scenes that were cut in the old anime.

It's just down to what they want to do, honestly. I don't think that much skill is even required.

I really hope they don't cut the love scene between Guts and Casca. They might have to edit it a bit, but if we're going by what the producers have said, then they're going to be staying as faithful to the manga as possible, and that is a critical scene. The pain and guilt Guts was still experiencing at that point (due to murdering Gambino and having been sold out by him) is extinguished by Casca. I can't imagine they'd leave out something that important.

I'm not too worried about the love scene, but what about the traumatic events that afflicted Guts in the first place? How are they going to depict his rape by Donovan? They could show it without showing it, but will they be willing to? I hope so, because cutting it out completely would be a travesty. Then again, without the Black Swordsman arc preceding it, this scene loses most of its meaning and implications.

Speaking of which, does anyone think the first movie might start with scenes showing off an adult Guts as the Black Swordsman? Even if it's just a short introduction, I feel that it would be better than nothing (though it'll obviously never replace the Black Swordsman arc in its entirety). I'm thinking that even just showing an abbreviated version of Guts' fight against the Snake Baron during the opening credits could work to establish him as a badass before moving on to the flashback.

Offline A.C

Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2011, 08:29:12 PM »
What a terrible misrepresentation of the series.

Think of it as me just trying to make the point across to the lowest common denominator.  :griffnotevil:

I've heard people throw around the phrase "monster slaying" in variations to describe the Berserk manga more than once. The old anime seemed to upset the balance of the Berserk world for a lot of casual fans discovering Berserk through the anime.

Offline Truder

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 08:31:50 PM »
Speaking of which, does anyone think the first movie might start with scenes showing off an adult Guts as the Black Swordsman? Even if it's just a short introduction, I feel that it would be better than nothing (though it'll obviously never replace the Black Swordsman arc in its entirety). I'm thinking that even just showing an abbreviated version of Guts' fight against the Snake Baron during the opening credits could work to establish him as a badass before moving on to the flashback.
That would be awesome! they should definitely show a tidbit of him with the dragon slayer.

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 08:42:11 PM »
I'm not too worried about the love scene, but what about the traumatic events that afflicted Guts in the first place? How are they going to depict his rape by Donovan? They could show it without showing it, but will they be willing to? I hope so, because cutting it out completely would be a travesty. Then again, without the Black Swordsman arc preceding it, this scene loses most of its meaning and implications.

I think they'll probably show as much as we see of it in the manga. What happens after Donovan gets behind Guts is left up to our imagination and I think leavnig off there would be fine.

Speaking of which, does anyone think the first movie might start with scenes showing off an adult Guts as the Black Swordsman? Even if it's just a short introduction, I feel that it would be better than nothing (though it'll obviously never replace the Black Swordsman arc in its entirety). I'm thinking that even just showing an abbreviated version of Guts' fight against the Snake Baron during the opening credits could work to establish him as a badass before moving on to the flashback.

Hmmm...I don't know how I'd feel about them showing a snippet of the Black Swordsman arc at the beginning. How much could they fit in without bastardizing it? If it was done well, I wouldn't mind, but if they're going to do an abbreviated version of it, I think it would end up ruining an OVA they could release later that we could simply watch before the films. I think the first film will simply open up with the discovery of Guts lying beneath his mother's corpse.

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2011, 08:50:26 PM »
I'll just basically repeat what I said in the mega-thread.

I know it's probably not seen as serious as some other things but I'm worried about the "toning down" or "watering down" or really censoring of a lot of scenes. As I mentioned in the other thread they could easily replace dismembered and/or naked women and children on pikes with soldiers wearing armor, example. While it's most likely not going to be seen in the first movie, the scenes with Wyald are a great example of a potential casualty of censorship. On a broader note, I'm really hoping they don't do it with the "lighter" battle scenes as well, such as just having blood spray instead of the gory details we usually get in the manga. How they decide to handle the violence will have a pretty big impact on how a lot of scenes translate in my opinion.

If they were to cut characters (very doubtful imo), I'm a little afraid of some of the more political characters, such as Julius and the Queen. These are characters that are introduced and killed off within the Golden Age and could be seen as expendable should they decide to focus more on the 100 year war between Tudor and Midland... which sorta seems plausible. Obviously it's important to show Griffith's rise through the ranks and the dangers that come with it, but I could sadly see them putting that on the shoulders of Minister Foss or some others. Just a loopy idea I have.  :???:

Offline Truder

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2011, 01:04:20 AM »
hoping they don't do it with the "lighter" battle scenes as well, such as just having blood spray instead of the gory details we usually get in the manga. How they decide to handle the violence will have a pretty big impact on how a lot of scenes translate in my opinion.



I don't see a single intestine. :sad:

But that picture is old, so they might change how they depict violent scenes.

Offline Tzur

Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2011, 01:05:18 AM »
I was thinking they might omit the rape of Guts by Donovan in the first film and wait till the love scene between Guts and Casca. There are enough allusions to Guts past throughout the story, so it wouldn't throw the viewer off too much. They could rearrange some of the scenes in volume 9 (Guts' encounter with Skull Knight after the Griffith scenes) and remove the first introduction of Silat during the tournament, which would actually flow better on screen anyhow. The fight between the Bakiraka in volume 10 might be removed for time constraints, which sucks.

Unless the films are 3 hours each, there's really no way they can fit everything. :sad:

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2011, 03:12:54 AM »
I agree that a lot of these area's will probably be addressed in one form or another considering that they are likely going to condense each film to feel like a self contained movie.  Hopefully any censorship that exists won't actually cut content, but just show it in a less explicit way.  I'd be upset if we lost Guts rape and most of Wyald because both serve important roles in the story.  The rape's importance is fairly obvious for Guts development and his relationship with both Griffith and Casca, as both have dealt and will deal with rape.

Wyald does a tremendous amount that I don't think is immediately apparent.  Aside from foreshadowing the supernatural event that's around the corner, he provides some actual stakes to Griffith's escape from Wyndham.  Think about it, Guts has killed a hundred men at this point and easily beaten Silat twice.  The Bakiraka and even a legion of knights like in the 97 anime aren't much of a challenge.  But Guts has never beaten an Apostle, let alone an apostle with an army so the audience really doesn't know if they'll win.  In addition, the difficulty of the fight with Wyald, a single apostle, makes the Eclipse that much more despairing.  I'll be pissed if he's not represented in some way.  

As far as the politics in the middle of the golden age, I expect a lot will be cut.  As mentioned previously, a lot is in there to remind a reader who's been reading every other month what happened many issues ago.  I expect the dialogue to be streamlined and characters like Laban and Owen will probably be diminished.  I could even see them simplifying the assassination of Julius and the Queen by combining aspects of both.  

The sex scenes between Griffith and Charlotte and Guts and Casca and Femto and Casca will definitely be less explicit.  I really doubt we'll be seeing so many angles and positions, and really, we don't need to (though an argument could be made for the rape of Casca).  

I hope Silat makes it in there, and he probably will if they plan on going through the Kushan invasion.  It would be stupid not to introduce him early on.  If they don't, the Bakiraka on the escape from Wyndham probably will show up.  Don't know about both though.  Honestly I could live without the Bakiraka in the sewers if it meant keeping something else.

I've mentioned it on the big thread and PM, but I think they might even ADD more Boscogn or Gennon.  The 97 anime did, and I think for good reason (though not super effective in their attempt).  The early Golden age stories don't have any face for the 'bad guys' of Tudor aside from Adon, and I think we can all agree that he wasn't too imposing for the Hawks.  To make Griffith's rise look especially impressive, and to make Doldrey feel like the big battle that it should, I wouldn't be surprised if they involved either Boscogn or Gennon earlier on and beefed up their status as villains.    

Offline Theoden

Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2011, 10:48:35 AM »
Speaking of which, does anyone think the first movie might start with scenes showing off an adult Guts as the Black Swordsman? Even if it's just a short introduction, I feel that it would be better than nothing (though it'll obviously never replace the Black Swordsman arc in its entirety). I'm thinking that even just showing an abbreviated version of Guts' fight against the Snake Baron during the opening credits could work to establish him as a badass before moving on to the flashback.
I would love to see that and It would suits very well for me.

How much could they fit in without bastardizing it? If it was done well, I wouldn't mind, but if they're going to do an abbreviated version of it, I think it would end up ruining an OVA they could release later that we could simply watch before the films. I think the first film will simply open up with the discovery of Guts lying beneath his mother's corpse.

Introducing the first movie by few scenes with Guts as the Black Swordsman wouldn't be a problem; since in the manga it's already crumbled a bit... I believe the Black Swordsman arc is full enough not to be ruined by a little introduction.
With the idea of opening with Guts's birth from his mother's corpse I think it's a bad idea; to me it would throw too much things at once, I really don't see that.

Offline mevoo

Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 02:05:38 AM »
Question: Is Guts' voice Nobutoshi Canna in the new Berserk movie?

Offline Gobolatula

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 06:45:50 AM »
Question: Is Guts' voice Nobutoshi Canna in the new Berserk movie?
It sounded like him in the trailer!

I have a bad feeling about them cutting out Donavan. Honestly, I'm still upset that it looks like they're going straight to The Golden Age.

I hate that I'm even thinking in "compromise mode" since they said they would be adapting this faithfully, but it would be NICE if maybe there was just... ONE SCENE where Guts is the black swordsman. Like, him and Puck talking or something. I dunno. I want to see Puck in this.

I think they are going to cut a lot of the humor. I don't know why, but I got a bad feeling. Like Griffith and the kama sutra bit. Little things like that. Guts' "Are you a homo?" reaction to Griffith "wanting" him, etc... Now, if they do cut the funny stuff, I will throw a fit. In the theater.

Offline NosferatuRex

Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2011, 11:44:35 AM »
I am worried that a lot of the violence is going to be cut down. Since this has been taken on-board by Warners’, I suspect some censoring is going to occur at some point if not merely withdrawn from the anime all together.

Now, 90 minute run-time is standard for films that are Theatrical. However I sure do hope this is not merely a 100 minute run-time film that attempts to sum up all the characters you meet in the first story arc and all of the Hawks exploits in a constricted time frame. Though I doubt this to be the case considering the Authors near 20 year run with the Manga has me under the impression that the Author is either an Immortal or a perfectionist. The latter seems like the reasonable choice though the former much more exciting.

My last concern is not to do with the project; I don’t speak Japanese, and I assume this film will be first dubbed in Japanese – with Warners’ business being Western predominantly, I know at some point an English dub will come out, though I hope it won’t be too long.

I could be wrong about Warner Brothers level of involvement in the project itself or its method of distribution and meeting classification, though I am fairly certain this to be the case.

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2011, 06:04:26 AM »
I too, hope the violence won't be too censored.  The lack of gore during the Zodd clip is a bit concerning, though the old screenshot from what appears to be the battle with the Holy Iron Chain Knights gives me some hope for dismemberments.  I could deal with violence portrayed like the 97 anime for much of the Golden Age, but once the Dragon Slayer comes into the picture, well... a sharpened iron bench is going to leave a bigger mark.

Speaking of which, I'd be surprised if the film didn't open with some type of nod to the Black Swordsman.  Otherwise it's going to be really jarring when we see the supernatural pop up with Zodd, and the Eclipse.  Even the Dragon Slayer is a bit of a stretch if it's not introduced early on.  Audiences need the groundwork to be set, otherwise they'll feel like they've been promised one movie and given another.  The 97 anime addresses it with the first episode, though half-assed, and everyone I've shown it to still think the Eclipse comes completely out of nowhere.   I'm sure someone is doing Quality Control to make sure this isn't an issue the second time around.

Offline Henry Spencer

Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2011, 01:41:33 PM »
Hmm, yes, certain scenes and characters like Wyald, King of Midland, Donovan etc are uncertainties for sure. I hope Silat doesn't get cut out this time (I do really like his two encounters with Guts).

Offline Oburi

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2011, 03:28:18 PM »
Oh god if Silat gets cut again I don't know if I can take it.

Offline Walter

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Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2011, 04:33:47 PM »
How about Gambino, guys? Think Guts' childhood sequences will make it in?
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