What else they could be…

Hello. :)

If you’ve been reading “Griffith the Enchanter”, you’ve seen me arguing with Saiki about whether the main men in Griffith’s new Band of the Hawks are Apostles or not. I’m sure that’s how were supposed to see it, at least until Miura reveals otherwise. Saiki thinks we shouldn’t make up our minds yet. Well, the whole debate has me looking at Berserk at lot more sharply (why I like debating in the first place), and I got to thinking while I was lying down to go to bed; okay, if they aren’t Apostles, what else could they be? So, I thought about that, thought about Roberto’s dream observation and came up with a theory. That perhaps they are no more than they seem, “heroes”. Legends kids were told about as bedtime stories. Heroes that before only existed in the spiritual world like Trolls, Ogres and the Schnoz. That idea appealed to me, it would give us more insight into the spiritual world, explain a lot about them, and it opens up a lot of other possibilities. It could also be something inbetween I believe, look at Griffith, he’s a legend too, but to put it into “Berserk Science” he’s technically a God Hand reborn. So they could be a little bit Apostle, a little bit dream warrior. They could still be considered demons anyway. So, anyone else have a suggestion?

-Griffith

P.S. Oh yeah, I stand by everything I said in "Griffith the Enchanter." But a guy can think, can’t he? ;)

Legends aren't usualy about your time. They are about history, even if times haven't changed much.

At least some of these "legends" are known for feats in people's lifetime. This would imply that they have been in the real world recently. These are living legends, not legends of old like trolls.

what if theyre neither humans nor apostles

like people of the forest. the best warriors from various back grounds. all raised to the teachings of their own cultures. they all felt the presence of a new god on earth and went to join him

or

they could be a little more than just humans. kinda like how griff stated (i cant remember the quote) that certain people are above humans and abide by rules greater than those of mankind. chosen people who are supposed to rule without being bound my nobility, those that nature has chosen.
who says that he was just refering to god hand and apostles
certain people that have been given abilities by nature that far surpass that of a normal human. these few rose to the top in the time of war due to their abilities. due to griffs return, nature beckoned them to be by his side

Griffith said:

That perhaps they are no more than they seem, “heroes”. Legends kids were told about as bedtime stories. Heroes that before only existed in the spiritual world like Trolls, Ogres and the Schnoz. That idea appealed to me, it would give us more insight into the spiritual world, explain a lot about them, and it opens up a lot of other possibilities. It could also be something inbetween I believe, look at Griffith, he’s a legend too, but to put it into “Berserk Science” he’s technically a God Hand reborn. So they could be a little bit Apostle, a little bit dream warrior. They could still be considered demons anyway.

Click to expand...

Very interesting idea Griff :)

Here's my hazardous theory: they could have been real heroes, just as strong as Guts or Griffith were before the eclipse, that died, and came back with the merging of the astral and 'real' world. They all somehow heard griff's call, and came, but they don't tell us from where ... I believe that could be from the realm of the dead. I remember something about how grunbeld saved a village with a very few people to help him, how locus won jousts, etc, that's not so amazing.

What I find interesting in all of this, is that their journey in the realm of the dead would've given them some increased strengh and feats, without the classic apostle panoply (behelit, human eating, etc), so that they would be "lesser" demons with very high combat skills, a greater challenge for Guts that just overpowered apostles regenerating faster, hitting harder ...

if they are just "heroes of might and legend" that came into being because people believed in it, wouldnt that have something to do with "idea"? .... i am not to clear on what idea is .... i belive it is the subconscious will of the mortals manifested .... so, with that in mind, are the legends being born through idea as a result of the subconscious ?
:-\

Psymont said:

if they are just "heroes of might and legend" that came into being because people believed in it, wouldnt that have something to do with "idea"? .... i am not to clear on what idea is .... i belive it is the subconscious will of the mortals manifested .... so, with that in mind, are the legends being born through idea as a result of the subconscious ?
:-\

Click to expand...

the eaisiest way to say it would be: Humans created stories and such about a bieng who they could not sense (meaning they couldn't see, feel, taste, hear or touch)and wished so much for it to be real that it became reality

... I have no idea how that is possible however

That is not entirely correct, or at least misleading.

Idea was created by the collective unconscious of humanity. That rules out stories. People desired reasons for their suffering, Idea manipulates fate in order to create those reasons.

Majin Tenshi said:

That is not entirely correct, or at least misleading.

Idea was created by the collective unconscious of humanity. That rules out stories. People desired reasons for their suffering, Idea manipulates fate in order to create those reasons.

Click to expand...

... yeah I guess I was a little misleading in what I said

Majin Tenshi said:

That is not entirely correct, or at least misleading.

Idea was created by the collective unconscious of humanity. That rules out stories. People desired reasons for their suffering, Idea manipulates fate in order to create those reasons.

Click to expand...

idea is terribly misguided .... why doesnt the damn thing end suffering .... isnt that what people really want? (this is some pretty hippie shit im spillin here)

Re:What else they could be…

Psymont said:

idea is terribly misguided .... why doesnt the damn thing end suffering .... isnt that what people really want? (this is some pretty hippie shit im spillin here)

Click to expand...

You don't know people well, it seems...

idea provides the reasons for the suffering .... but what provides the suffering(when i say this i mean what higher being)? .... if no higher being does, then humans are not controlled by fate .... they are lead to a point by idea(maybe), but then the actions which they take are their own, which renders idea powerless over the present .... it can only control the path, not how the individual walks on it ....

So long as there is mortal life, there will allways be suffering. Even if nothing more then the pain of loseing a loved one. So long as there is happiness, loss of that happiness will cause pain. An end to suffering is too much to hope for and perhaps even too cruel.

Idea is born from the unconscience desire for suffering to have meaning. People did not want there desire to be without reason. From his place in the human mind Idea manipulates humanity, creating reasons for what people will inevitably suffer.

Idea is a master of fate. From it's position, it should be able to know everything human and has seemingly limited brainpower(all of humanity). While it probably can't cause extreme changes, it should be able to tweek tiny things(feelings, impulses) easily. By doing this over melenia, it can control fate completely. Everything it does snowballs.
I believe who a person is, is a product of their genetics and their environment. If Idea has enough foresight it can make anyone whoever it wants.

Re:What else they could be…

Psymont said:

idea provides the reasons for the suffering .... but what provides the suffering(when i say this i mean what higher being)? .... if no higher being does, then humans are not controlled by fate .... they are lead to a point by idea(maybe), but then the actions which they take are their own, which renders idea powerless over the present .... it can only control the path, not how the individual walks on it ....

Click to expand...

Or maybe (certanly ;D) are the humans that provide the suffering to themselves ?

Re:What else they could be…

Aazealh said:

I remember something about how grunbeld saved a village with a very few people to help him, how locus won jousts, etc, that's not so amazing.

Click to expand...

Actually, Locus won every single joust he was in. And Grunbeld defended his small kingdom from the attack by the Chudar kingdom for ten years. Grunbeld only had 3000 men.


Anyways, back to the topic. I like that idea of the "hero" thing. It would make sense too since Griffith himself was seen as a living legend in Midland. And even if they were demons, would explain why they are more human than the typical apostle.

Re:What else they could be…

roberto999 said:

Psymont said:

idea provides the reasons for the suffering .... but what provides the suffering(when i say this i mean what higher being)? .... if no higher being does, then humans are not controlled by fate .... they are lead to a point by idea(maybe), but then the actions which they take are their own, which renders idea powerless over the present .... it can only control the path, not how the individual walks on it ....

Click to expand...

Or maybe (certanly ;D) are the humans that provide the suffering to themselves ?

Click to expand...

well thats my point .... if idea doesnt cause people to hurt others, then he is not in total control

My point is, that there is suffering. There can't NOT be suffering so long as there is life. Suffering is a natural side effect of life.

Idea's pourpose is to give that suffering meaning.

i know that there is suffering .... idea doesnt cause the suffering though, people do of their own FREE will .... idea only puts them in the place to make the choices that make up history

You aren't following me.
Some one dies of old age. Those close to that person, spouse/children/grandchildren, suffer the loss. Mortality itself causes suffering. Unless you need a force to make people mortal, you don't need a force to cause suffering.

Majin Tenshi said:

You aren't following me.
Some one dies of old age. Those close to that person, spouse/children/grandchildren, suffer the loss. Mortality itself causes suffering. Unless you need a force to make people mortal, you don't need a force to cause suffering.

Click to expand...

i thinking more of the sword through the throat kind of suffering, not so much losing someone .... if person x has his life layed out by idea and person y has his life layed out by idea, and x and y get into a fight, and x wins, then those who are familiar with y are sad, but x did not win because of idea and y did not die because of idea .... idea simply brought the 2 together .... it was either x or y's choice to kill the other and it was the ability of x that made it possible for him to win .... idea doesnt control the outcome or the will or ability of x and y .... i understand that idea brought the angry x and the angry y together to create a reason for the suffering of x and y's friends and family ....

While Locus and Grunbeld seem close to normal humans.
Lakushas and Arvin seem to have less human characteristics.
Mule felt a huge aura eminating from Locus.
This is something which I don't think a human would be able to do even if that human has super abilities.

If I hadn't suffering, I think I'd suffer too much ...
At the very beginning, humans suffer when they are being born, I think suffering is what makes us go on till we'll die. Suffering is what is able to make us happy, and happyness is so hurting ...
Imo, now, I think we can't escape to Samsara knowing all of this about suffering ... and that's why i'm so blissed when i take into consideration the achievements of men who know vacuity and those who ( if anyone like that ever existed ) accomplished nirvana. I also think Bodhisattva could be the most astonishing people on earth so frightening ...

speaking of suffering, mozgus' torture room made me ill .... when he brought that poor lady with the dying kid in their, phuckin sick!

Re:What else they could be…

Majin Tenshi said:

Legends aren't usualy about your time. They are about history, even if times haven't changed much.

At least some of these "legends" are known for feats in people's lifetime. This would imply that they have been in the real world recently. These are living legends, not legends of old like trolls.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily so (aside Zodd about whom there are legends at least 300 years old) some people, e.g. Ghandi or Hitler to name only two, rise to a legendary status in their own lifetime. Anyway in my post in the other topic i wanted to point out that they appear to be and act like folks immagine them to be, that is like a fantasy version of themselves not like real, living persons, formidable like they could be in real life, that is the legendary boxing champion Muhamad Ali (Cassius Clay- another living legend), for example, would be in this contest immagined able to K.O. twenty adversaries with four o five swings. Or think about Wild Bill Hitchoc,Billy the Kid, Butch Cassidy, Sundance Kid, Calamity Jane, again to name only a few, they were real persons too, but their legendary selves would fit well in Griffith's new band of the Hawks

interesting speculation.

namayias said:

interesting speculation.

Click to expand...

Yeah.