Griffith/Guts
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Re:Grifith/Gutts
...Ok. But it's not as though I tried to explain the dream, my only point of bringing that dream up in the first place was that, however unconsciously, Griffith had simply imagined of having a "normal" life with Caska, not one lying in a bed of flowers with Guts. If it's the suicide thing you think I misunderstood, if it seemed like I was implying Griffith tried to commit suicide because he knew he wouldn't have that particular life with Caska, that's not what I think. I think it was because waking up in a pond with one of his twig-like arms broken made him painfully aware of how far he had fallen and how he couldn't ever achieve his dream of attaining a kingdom. Anyways, why simply tell me I misunderstood the whole thing without at least explaining why?
Walter said:
...Ok. But it's not as though I tried to explain the dream, my only point of bringing that dream up in the first place was that, however unconsciously, Griffith had simply imagined of having a "normal" life with Caska, not one lying in a bed of flowers with Guts. If it's the suicide thing you think I misunderstood, if it seemed like I was implying Griffith tried to commit suicide because he knew he wouldn't have that particular life with Caska, that's not what I think. I think it was because waking up in a pond with one of his twig-like arms broken made him painfully aware of how far he had fallen and how he couldn't ever achieve his dream of attaining a kingdom. Anyways, why simply tell me I misunderstood the whole thing without at least explaining why?
Re:Grifith/Gutts
Maybe he thought you might go read the manga/ watch the anime again to see if there was another way of interpreting it.
But anyway.
In the dream, Griffith is still broken. We only see him in shadow, he's sitting down, he doesn't move the whole time, Caska is waiting on him. Stuff's happening in the outside world and Griffith is inside, in shadow. He doesn't reply even though Caska talks to him, he has a blanket over his knees, Caska's even spoon-feeding him for god's sake. This isn't a fantasy of what Griffith yearns for, it's a nightmare of what will happen if things carry on as they are (I think him hearing Caska talking to Gatts happens before this). I probably missed out some of the finer metaphorical points of the dream which reinforce this.
Seriously, for a man like Griffith, even if he wasn't incapacitated, living a quiet life with a wife and child when he's dreaming of his own kingdom would be disappointing to say the least. And to be so totally dependent, knowing Caska might secretly be resenting giving up her life to care for Griffith... all this is alot to do with why he attempts suicide.
Maybe he thought you might go read the manga/ watch the anime again to see if there was another way of interpreting it.
But anyway.
In the dream, Griffith is still broken. We only see him in shadow, he's sitting down, he doesn't move the whole time, Caska is waiting on him. Stuff's happening in the outside world and Griffith is inside, in shadow. He doesn't reply even though Caska talks to him, he has a blanket over his knees, Caska's even spoon-feeding him for god's sake. This isn't a fantasy of what Griffith yearns for, it's a nightmare of what will happen if things carry on as they are (I think him hearing Caska talking to Gatts happens before this). I probably missed out some of the finer metaphorical points of the dream which reinforce this.
Seriously, for a man like Griffith, even if he wasn't incapacitated, living a quiet life with a wife and child when he's dreaming of his own kingdom would be disappointing to say the least. And to be so totally dependent, knowing Caska might secretly be resenting giving up her life to care for Griffith... all this is alot to do with why he attempts suicide.
Re:Grifith/Gutts
Nice of you to assume I hadn't done that, but having only one perspective tends to make you automatically miss things no matter how many times you re-evaluate your thinking. Your points about the dream are interesting; I took Griffith's inaction/silence as confusion over what was happening since it was so radical, confusion over where he was and what Caska was talking about, (and considering, as Caska kept talking, that he thought his previous (real) life was just a dream, he was confused)... that he was a silent observer in a dream, which is the nature of most dreams. If it was his nightmarish perception of how he would have ended up as with things going the way they were, it still doesn't account for his acceptance of it all at the end, -only- interrupted by the appearance of the crying beherit, resulting in him being jarred back to reality. If he was horrified by the dream, he himself didn't show it, and he wouldn't have been surprised by how pleasant it was, though I agree it was the opposite of his own personal dream/ambition and it was his view of a possible future. Whether he found it nightmarish or not, however, I feel is shown by his last words in the dream.
So yeah you're right that I was wrong to think that he would have simply imagined Guts in Caska's place if he had romantic feelings for him, since Guts wasn't going to be involved in his future in that state. Guess I tried to simplify things too much. Despite that though, Griffith is still in Guts' son's body, so I really don't think was ever 'in love' with Guts in the schoolgirl sense, and definitely not now. The strong feelings that caused him to risk his life and momentarily lose his dream because of Guts seem beyond just romanticism.
karsa said:
Nice of you to assume I hadn't done that, but having only one perspective tends to make you automatically miss things no matter how many times you re-evaluate your thinking. Your points about the dream are interesting; I took Griffith's inaction/silence as confusion over what was happening since it was so radical, confusion over where he was and what Caska was talking about, (and considering, as Caska kept talking, that he thought his previous (real) life was just a dream, he was confused)... that he was a silent observer in a dream, which is the nature of most dreams. If it was his nightmarish perception of how he would have ended up as with things going the way they were, it still doesn't account for his acceptance of it all at the end, -only- interrupted by the appearance of the crying beherit, resulting in him being jarred back to reality. If he was horrified by the dream, he himself didn't show it, and he wouldn't have been surprised by how pleasant it was, though I agree it was the opposite of his own personal dream/ambition and it was his view of a possible future. Whether he found it nightmarish or not, however, I feel is shown by his last words in the dream.
So yeah you're right that I was wrong to think that he would have simply imagined Guts in Caska's place if he had romantic feelings for him, since Guts wasn't going to be involved in his future in that state. Guess I tried to simplify things too much. Despite that though, Griffith is still in Guts' son's body, so I really don't think was ever 'in love' with Guts in the schoolgirl sense, and definitely not now. The strong feelings that caused him to risk his life and momentarily lose his dream because of Guts seem beyond just romanticism.
Re:Grifith/Gutts
Mm, you're right, 'this tranquility... isn't so bad' does imply it isn't a nightmare. But that's the thing with dreams, I think. What seems to make sense in them, upon waking, is nonsense. I still think that upon waking, he saw the vision as his own version of hell. Though it probably was the behelit which reminded him of his dreams and that he couldn't settle for such an outcome. Like he was warring within himself and part of him wanted to just give up. But the dream wasn't something he wanted, it was at the most like a siren, to trap him into something he'd never willingly do if he was in his right mind.
None of any of this has to do with my thoughts on Griffith being in love/ not being in love with Gatts - I was simply commenting on your interpretation of the dream.
btw, I honestly wasn't assuming anything, I was simply trying to come up with a reason why Walter didn't explain it, other than 'he couldn't be bothered' (not that I needed to say anything, it was entirely gratuitous not to mention impertinent). In fact I thought you might look at it again, I know I did. And I appreciate you explaining your interpretation of it, I hadn't looked at it that way before.
Mage said:
Mm, you're right, 'this tranquility... isn't so bad' does imply it isn't a nightmare. But that's the thing with dreams, I think. What seems to make sense in them, upon waking, is nonsense. I still think that upon waking, he saw the vision as his own version of hell. Though it probably was the behelit which reminded him of his dreams and that he couldn't settle for such an outcome. Like he was warring within himself and part of him wanted to just give up. But the dream wasn't something he wanted, it was at the most like a siren, to trap him into something he'd never willingly do if he was in his right mind.
None of any of this has to do with my thoughts on Griffith being in love/ not being in love with Gatts - I was simply commenting on your interpretation of the dream.
btw, I honestly wasn't assuming anything, I was simply trying to come up with a reason why Walter didn't explain it, other than 'he couldn't be bothered' (not that I needed to say anything, it was entirely gratuitous not to mention impertinent). In fact I thought you might look at it again, I know I did. And I appreciate you explaining your interpretation of it, I hadn't looked at it that way before.
typhonblue
Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Re:Grifith/Gutts
There is an unbelievable level of attachment there. It's an attachment along the lines of "you complete me, you make me whole..." Fine, call it friendship. It really doesn't matter. What matters is the gravity it exerts on Griffith.
It's the context. He is agitated by the fact he can't get Griffith out of his mind. He feels he can't stop Casca from thinking about Griffith because *he* can't stop thinking about Griffith. Specifically what he meant *to* Griffith. It's the conflict he's feeling that's the issue here. His conflict is in direct parallel to the conflict Casca's feeling over him and Griffith. That's why he's feeling helpless to stop her conflict, because he can't stop his own.
If you re-read that section, you'll see that Casca is mere feet away from a monster that's shreding armoured men like confettii. Griffith however is blissing out in the amniotic fluid of evil, protected from his surroundings. Gatts made a choice. He chose to stay near Griffith. Even tho Griffith was in no immediate danger.
Judea on the other hand made the choice to try and save Casca. I think Casca should have ended up with Judea. DAMN! ARGH! (Well... maybe Farnese, now. Seripico-Farnese-Casca wouldn't be too bad... But Farnese is straight and has a crush on Gatts... Goddamn, too many people are fixated on Gatts...)
Do you know what happens when you love someone? It's really hard to believe they've fucked you over. You want to give them every opportunity to prove you wrong.
I'm re-reading the manga again (only the third time this month! My psychiatrist says I'm getting better...) and when I was going through the eclipse scene I noticed something I hadn't seen before. Third Chapter, thirteenth volume, just after Gatts is through slaughtering a baker's dozen of demons, there's a brief slowdown in the action and he looks back at Griffith. I like to call this the "kicked puppy look". I think that expression speaks volumes.
I'm with Godo on this one. I don't think Gatts has the right to avenge anyone's pain. Except his own of course. As far as I'm concerned Casca was more Judea's woman then Gatts. Where was Gatts when Casca needed saving? Where was Judea? Right beside her, defending her with his life. Casca would be dead without Judea. What would she be without Gatts? Less tormented.
Yes.
Does Gatts even know what he wants? Godo said it himself "Don't let that bastard be like me." Godo was swinging a hammer before he could walk, he never had the chance to find his own dream. He just did what was expected of him. Gatts is the same way. He's still doing what he did as a kid, doing what daddy tells him to do. Fighting so he can one day get noticed by God or whatever father figure he's fixated on. That's what I mean when I say he isn't his own man. He may be a damn good fighter, but is he really doing it for himself or someone else?
A dream is something you have despite your circumstances, not because of them.
And, in conclusion, I think Gatts is secretly kicking himself thinking "man, if I just fucked Griffith when I had the chance, none of this would have happened."
There is an unbelievable level of attachment there. It's an attachment along the lines of "you complete me, you make me whole..." Fine, call it friendship. It really doesn't matter. What matters is the gravity it exerts on Griffith.
It's the context. He is agitated by the fact he can't get Griffith out of his mind. He feels he can't stop Casca from thinking about Griffith because *he* can't stop thinking about Griffith. Specifically what he meant *to* Griffith. It's the conflict he's feeling that's the issue here. His conflict is in direct parallel to the conflict Casca's feeling over him and Griffith. That's why he's feeling helpless to stop her conflict, because he can't stop his own.
If you re-read that section, you'll see that Casca is mere feet away from a monster that's shreding armoured men like confettii. Griffith however is blissing out in the amniotic fluid of evil, protected from his surroundings. Gatts made a choice. He chose to stay near Griffith. Even tho Griffith was in no immediate danger.
Judea on the other hand made the choice to try and save Casca. I think Casca should have ended up with Judea. DAMN! ARGH! (Well... maybe Farnese, now. Seripico-Farnese-Casca wouldn't be too bad... But Farnese is straight and has a crush on Gatts... Goddamn, too many people are fixated on Gatts...)
Do you know what happens when you love someone? It's really hard to believe they've fucked you over. You want to give them every opportunity to prove you wrong.
I'm re-reading the manga again (only the third time this month! My psychiatrist says I'm getting better...) and when I was going through the eclipse scene I noticed something I hadn't seen before. Third Chapter, thirteenth volume, just after Gatts is through slaughtering a baker's dozen of demons, there's a brief slowdown in the action and he looks back at Griffith. I like to call this the "kicked puppy look". I think that expression speaks volumes.
I'm with Godo on this one. I don't think Gatts has the right to avenge anyone's pain. Except his own of course. As far as I'm concerned Casca was more Judea's woman then Gatts. Where was Gatts when Casca needed saving? Where was Judea? Right beside her, defending her with his life. Casca would be dead without Judea. What would she be without Gatts? Less tormented.
Yes.
Does Gatts even know what he wants? Godo said it himself "Don't let that bastard be like me." Godo was swinging a hammer before he could walk, he never had the chance to find his own dream. He just did what was expected of him. Gatts is the same way. He's still doing what he did as a kid, doing what daddy tells him to do. Fighting so he can one day get noticed by God or whatever father figure he's fixated on. That's what I mean when I say he isn't his own man. He may be a damn good fighter, but is he really doing it for himself or someone else?
A dream is something you have despite your circumstances, not because of them.
And, in conclusion, I think Gatts is secretly kicking himself thinking "man, if I just fucked Griffith when I had the chance, none of this would have happened."
typhonblue
Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Re:Grifith/Gutts
Ok... you're right. *Sigh* Nothing is ever simple. :-\
Ok... you're right. *Sigh* Nothing is ever simple. :-\
All_4_Yume
Yume Chaser
Re:Grifith/Gutts
So are you saying it's unnatural to think about friend whom you're going out of your way to rescue days after your girlfriend tells you made him fall apart?
He chose to save his friend from amniotic fluid of evil.
Guts is the man.
I know this but Guts and Griffith's relationship were more like brothers than anything.
It's probably just him starting to recognize the fact that Griffith sold them out.
He is avenging his pain.
Dude if you believe that need a reality check more than Guts needs one about Gambino. Judeau was only a "dick in a glass case" for Casca if he was lucky. Judeau's the guy Casca would call when Guts ain't treating her right. Judeau's stuck on the friend ladder. A poor fool waiting in the wings, pretending not to care, but dying inside. Hell, if you want to go on simp points, Guts has way more than Judeau. Guts was sheddin' blood on a regular basis for this ho.
Guts did way more for Casca than Judeau ever did (or ever will, or ever would) and he was man enough to admit his feelings to her. I'm sorry it has to be said but Judeau when out like a sucker and he's one of the last Taka no Dan members I'd want to be (and bottom of list of anyone whose ever been in Berserk).
He wanted to do it for himself. It's not like Guts doesn't like to fight, he loves it. That sadistic grin ain't for nothin'. Why do you think he's training practically all the time? Guts wants to be in control of his own destiny, it just happens he likes to fight.
If that's the case than Griffith's dream must be bullshit. Part of the reason Griffith want to be have his own country is because he was a poor nobody. Dreams aren't this specific thing with all type of rules dictating what makes it valid. It's just a desire that's hard to achieve. Some let them go, and for others it's all 4 yume.
So are you saying it's unnatural to think about friend whom you're going out of your way to rescue days after your girlfriend tells you made him fall apart?
He chose to save his friend from amniotic fluid of evil.
Guts is the man.
I know this but Guts and Griffith's relationship were more like brothers than anything.
It's probably just him starting to recognize the fact that Griffith sold them out.
He is avenging his pain.
Dude if you believe that need a reality check more than Guts needs one about Gambino. Judeau was only a "dick in a glass case" for Casca if he was lucky. Judeau's the guy Casca would call when Guts ain't treating her right. Judeau's stuck on the friend ladder. A poor fool waiting in the wings, pretending not to care, but dying inside. Hell, if you want to go on simp points, Guts has way more than Judeau. Guts was sheddin' blood on a regular basis for this ho.
Guts did way more for Casca than Judeau ever did (or ever will, or ever would) and he was man enough to admit his feelings to her. I'm sorry it has to be said but Judeau when out like a sucker and he's one of the last Taka no Dan members I'd want to be (and bottom of list of anyone whose ever been in Berserk).
He wanted to do it for himself. It's not like Guts doesn't like to fight, he loves it. That sadistic grin ain't for nothin'. Why do you think he's training practically all the time? Guts wants to be in control of his own destiny, it just happens he likes to fight.
If that's the case than Griffith's dream must be bullshit. Part of the reason Griffith want to be have his own country is because he was a poor nobody. Dreams aren't this specific thing with all type of rules dictating what makes it valid. It's just a desire that's hard to achieve. Some let them go, and for others it's all 4 yume.
Re:Grifith/Gutts
I have one thing to add about Guts decision to go for Griffith. I don't think he did it because he 'chose' Griffith over Caska.
I think he was just going straight for the root of the problem. If he could reach or talk to Griffith he could maybe convince him to stop the killing and save all the remaining people.
I have one thing to add about Guts decision to go for Griffith. I don't think he did it because he 'chose' Griffith over Caska.
I think he was just going straight for the root of the problem. If he could reach or talk to Griffith he could maybe convince him to stop the killing and save all the remaining people.
P
psymont
Guest
Re:Grifith/Gutts
righto ....
Mizar said:
righto ....
Re:Grifith/Gutts
Here's my take on the matter.
I don't thing Gatsu loved Griffith in any romantic way. He looked up to him like a father, in a way, because of his rather extreme father complex. When he found out Griffith didn't respect him as an equal, (or claimed he didn't) he was determined to become his equal on his own. Basicaly, he wanted papa to be proud of him.
However, I'm completely certain that Griffith loved Gatsu. Or maybe love is the wrong word, it was more like an obsession. Of course, he probably couldn't even admit it to himself. He probably thought the reason he tried to stop Gatsu from leaving, was because "he's mine". But when he left, he was completely destroyed. By the time he boinked the fair princess, he was already half insane, which, if nothing else, was obvious from the look in his eyes. During his long imprisonment, the only thing that shined brightly in his mind was Gatsu.
The very last thing he says before making the pledge to become a part of God Hand is that "Among the thousands of comrades and tens of thousands of enemies, there was only one man who could make me forget my dream".
It doesn't get more obvious than that.
Here's my take on the matter.
I don't thing Gatsu loved Griffith in any romantic way. He looked up to him like a father, in a way, because of his rather extreme father complex. When he found out Griffith didn't respect him as an equal, (or claimed he didn't) he was determined to become his equal on his own. Basicaly, he wanted papa to be proud of him.
However, I'm completely certain that Griffith loved Gatsu. Or maybe love is the wrong word, it was more like an obsession. Of course, he probably couldn't even admit it to himself. He probably thought the reason he tried to stop Gatsu from leaving, was because "he's mine". But when he left, he was completely destroyed. By the time he boinked the fair princess, he was already half insane, which, if nothing else, was obvious from the look in his eyes. During his long imprisonment, the only thing that shined brightly in his mind was Gatsu.
The very last thing he says before making the pledge to become a part of God Hand is that "Among the thousands of comrades and tens of thousands of enemies, there was only one man who could make me forget my dream".
It doesn't get more obvious than that.
Re:Grifith/Gutts
my head hurts after reading this load of shit... of course they loved eachother and it wasnt any thing sexual fuck havny you ever heard of plutonic love, this whole thread is just pointing out ignorance and the total obvious christ read vol. 22!!!
besides everyone knows Griffith and Judeu were gettin it on
my head hurts after reading this load of shit... of course they loved eachother and it wasnt any thing sexual fuck havny you ever heard of plutonic love, this whole thread is just pointing out ignorance and the total obvious christ read vol. 22!!!
besides everyone knows Griffith and Judeu were gettin it on
typhonblue
Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Re:Grifith/Gutts
I think Gatts and Griffith's love is more like depleted uranium. Very dangerous to by-standers.
I think Gatts and Griffith's love is more like depleted uranium. Very dangerous to by-standers.