The definition of causality

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psymont

Guest
SK carries on and on about this philisophical belief, so for those that dont know, here is the definition for the "laws of causality"

Causality

Causality, in philosophy, relationship of a cause to its effect. Aristotle enumerated four
different kinds of causes: the material, the formal, the efficient, and the final. The
material cause is what anything is made of, for example, brass or marble is the material
cause of a given statue. The formal cause is the form, type, or pattern according to
which anything is made; thus, the style of architecture would be the formal cause of a
house. The efficient cause is the immediate power acting to produce the work, such as
the manual energy of the laborers. The final cause is the end or motive for the sake of
which the work is produced, that is, the pleasure of the owner. The principles that
Aristotle outlined formed the basis of the modern scientific concept that specific stimuli
will produce standard results under controlled conditions. Other Greek philosophers,
particularly the skeptic Sextus Empiricus (circa 200-50), attacked the principles of
causality.

Rival Notions

In early modern philosophy, Aristotle's laws of causality were again challenged,
resulting in two rival notions of cause. The French philosopher and mathematician
Ren‚ Descartes and his school made cause identical with substance. The physical
scientists often had a mechanical view of causality, reducing cause to a motion or
change followed by other motion or change with a mathematical equality between
measures of motion. The British philosopher David Hume carried to a logical
conclusion the contention of Sextus Empiricus that causality is not a real relation, but a
fiction of the mind. To account for the origin of this fiction Hume used the doctrine of
association.

Hume's explanation of cause led the German philosopher Immanuel Kant to posit cause
as a fundamental category of understanding. Kant held that the only knowable objective
world is the product of a synthetic activity of the mind. He accepted Hume's skeptical
result as far as it concerned itself with the world of things-in-themselves. Dissatisfied,
however, with the concept that experience is only a succession of perceptions without
any discoverable relationship or coherence, Kant decided that causality is one of the
principles of coherence obtaining in the world of phenomena, and that it is universally
present there because thought, as part of its contribution to the nature of that world,
always puts it there.

The British philosopher John Stuart Mill took up the problem at this point. He denied
the fundamental postulate of Kant's transcendentalism, namely, that thought is
responsible for the order of this world. Mill sought to justify belief in universal
causation on empiricist principles; for him, a proposition is meaningful only if it
describes what can be experienced.

Modern Directions

Along with the method of empiricism as the source of all knowledge goes a definition of
cause that is widely accepted today. The cause of any event is a preceding event without
which the event in question would not have occurred. This is a mechanistic view of
causality popular in scientific circles. All the previous events would constitute the
complete cause.

Many philosophers deny the ultimate reality, or at least the fundamental validity, of the
causal relation. Thus, the American philosopher Josiah Royce maintained that the
category of serial order, of which the category of cause is a particular case, is itself
subordinate to the ultimate category of purpose. The French philosopher Henri Bergson
maintained that ultimate reality or life is not bound by exact causal sequences. It is a
process of growth in which the unpredictable, and therefore the uncaused, constantly
occurs. No exact repetition happens in real time; and where there is no repetition, there
is no cause, for cause means the antecedent that repeatedly is followed by the same
consequence.

Bibliographic entry: B25.

"Causality," Microsoft (R) Encarta. Copyright (c) 1993 Microsoft Corporation.
Copyright (c) 1993 Funk & Wagnall's Corporation
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
Here is the encarta definition ...
Imo, berserk is not based on these guys' theories. We've been told that the count and Griffith got beherit by fortune teller from an east's bazar ( kinda ... ), and Silatt seems to know a bunch of things though we dont know what. _I_ think w should look at indian/chinese philosophers and their point of view about causality. Personnally, I advise you to read Nagarjuna, an indian buddhist monk of 2d or 3d century AC, and especially his "Stances", the first chapter is really interessant ...
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Indeed Guillaume, "Indra" also seems to play a powerful force in Berserk as well. Causality is just an order of events that are responses to Idea's manipulations. I guess my usage of "just" is an understatement here...
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
I've just made a little search about indra ... i've found interesting things on http://www.pantheon.org/articles/i/indra.html

He shows aspects of being a creater god, having set order to the cosmos, and since he was the one who brought water to earth, he was a fertility god as well. He also had the power to revive slain warriors who had fallen in battle.
Indra is described as being very powerful, with a reddish complexion, and with either two or four very long arms.

and

Indra's most notable exploit was his battle with the asura Vritra. Vritra took the form of a mighty dragon, and had stolen all the water in the world for himself. No one could do anything about this until Indra was born. Upon hearing what had happened, Indra vowed to take back the life-giving liquid. He rode forth to meet him the terrible Vritra. He consumed great amounts of Soma to give him the strength needed to fight such a foe. Indra smashed through Vritra ninety-nine fortresses, and then came upon the dragon. The two clashed, and after a long battle Indra was able to destroy his powerful enemy. Vritra had been keeping the earth in a drought, but when Indra split open the demon, the waters again fell from the skies. So Indra became a hero to all people, and the gods elected him their king for his victory.

This thing makes me think of the battle between Void and Skully ...
 
Walter said:
Causality is just an order of events that are responses to Idea's manipulations. I guess my usage of "just" is an understatement here...

i always took Causality to be the DISorder of events. (not to be too overly anal)

always thought it was the gaps that Idea left open (or overlooked), the things that he/it didnt plan out step by step.
or
the things that werent under Idea's power. for all we know so far (or all that i think we know) is that Idea was created by humans because humans desired reasons for their actions. every being we've met so far is a creation of Idea, even god hands, even guts and skully. but Idea cant possibly plan out every step for every human, somethings must be overlooked.
random choices that people make that change history, one thing guts may do that kills griff that Idea overlooked.
or maybe humans will create another being to rival Idea, something that isnt under his control. they created Idea, why cant they create another being.


oh well, that started out going somewhere and just turned into a short rant
causality = the chance that goes hand in hand with the planned
 
if you think about it, the astral realm is created by the beliefs of humans. Trolls, fairies, chimimoryos(sp?), and other fantasy creatures exist in the astral realm because humans beleive in them. So could this in fact mean that humans first created the astral realm because of certain reasons, but began to abandon those beliefs and created a new realm to find reasons for life, death, and whatnot, thus creating Idea?

i think teh astral was created to explain the physical aspects of the world, but people beleive in the sciences now to explain physics. Thats why many people don't see Puck and other fantasy creatures have disappeared.
However, life and death and fate and whatnot cannot be explained by science, so a new realm was created to give reasons for these, thus creating Idea.

so possibly teh 4 kings are a godhand of the astral realm.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
namayias said:
if you think about it, the astral realm is created by the beliefs of humans. Trolls, fairies, chimimoryos(sp?), and other fantasy creatures exist in the astral realm because humans beleive in them. So could this in fact mean that humans first created the astral realm because of certain reasons, but began to abandon those beliefs and created a new realm to find reasons for life, death, and whatnot, thus creating Idea?
No, the Interstice/Hazama realm is comprised of creatures from human imagination, not the entire Astral Realm.
 
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psymont

Guest
re: krebs post

sk mentioned at one point that people can not change the flow of time .... its like throwing a pebble into a river .... however, after albion sk said that guts is more like a fish in the river swimming against the current ....
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
I really think Idea/God Hand must come from the East and the kushans must be related to this too.
Kushans are kinda indians.
God Hand seems to follow indian philosophy , btw, in vol12 page 202 we see void with a big brand between his long arms and his fingers do the indian 0 ( i hope you know what i mean ... )
well ... :-\
 
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psymont

Guest
Guillaume said:
I really think Idea/God Hand must come from the East and the kushans must be related to this too.
Kushans are kinda indians.
God Hand seems to follow indian philosophy , btw, in vol12 page 202 we see void with a big brand between his long arms and his fingers do the indian 0 ( i hope you know what i mean ... )
well ... :-\
yoga01.jpg
?
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
Void did that with arms up, that's it.
But should we accord much meaning to this ? I really dont know what to think now...
 

Nabeshin

Herald of God Hand
Walter said:
namayias said:
if you think about it, the astral realm is created by the beliefs of humans. Trolls, fairies, chimimoryos(sp?), and other fantasy creatures exist in the astral realm because humans beleive in them. So could this in fact mean that humans first created the astral realm because of certain reasons, but began to abandon those beliefs and created a new realm to find reasons for life, death, and whatnot, thus creating Idea?
No, the Interstice/Hazama realm is comprised of creatures from human imagination, not the entire Astral Realm.

You could probably say that the astral realm arises from the conscious thoughts of humans (imagination being one part of that) and that the ideal realm is the offspring of the human subconscious. After all, it's unlikely that humans consciously wished for something like Idea to come into existence, but rather that it formed as the embodiment of humanity's subconscious will.
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
Not only ...
Well it seems Indra slew a guy who was against Rackshasas too, don't if it has some kind of meaning, but i make you notice it
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
;D
Hinduism.
Indra (a god) slew another guy who was against Ravanna and his Rackasas (they're "demons")
Well i've thought Void makes think of Indra, and Racksas of Racksas ( :eek: ) blablabla
 
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