Author Topic: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?  (Read 6196 times)

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Offline Salibu

Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« on: April 19, 2012, 09:39:20 PM »
I have been reading alot on this particular topic lately wondering about things that could have been hinted at that we missed.

Has it ever been said that Femto's Incarnation Ceremony to be reborn was the first.
What I mean is...is it possible that one of the God Hand has already been reborn and we dont know it?

Someone like Daiva or someone else of extreme influence?
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Offline Chaos

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2012, 10:20:12 PM »
I have been reading alot on this particular topic lately wondering about things that could have been hinted at that we missed.

Has it ever been said that Femto's Incarnation Ceremony to be reborn was the first.
What I mean is...is it possible that one of the God Hand has already been reborn and we dont know it?

Someone like Daiva or someone else of extreme influence?

I've actually been talking with a friend of mine about this a lot too, funny/good timing.

No, it's never be said that Femto was the first to be reincarnated into a body of flesh. All the Skull Knight said was that once in 1,000 years one who exists in the divine domain is incarnated (I'm using the DH volume 18 here, so I'm sorry if that's far off from the original).

I highly doubt it was Daiba. Will go out an straight up say it wasn't. Guts' brand didn't react anywhere near the same level as it did when he was near Griffith on the Hill of Swords.

What's interesting about it, to me at least, is what does the Skull Knight know about this that hasn't been revealed yet? For example, was he present for the last reincarnation ceremony, if there was one? What role did he play, if he was? I can't wait to find out  :ubik:
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2012, 10:37:43 PM »
Has it ever been said that Femto's Incarnation Ceremony to be reborn was the first.

It's a ceremony where he was incarnated, not reborn. That's why we call it the incarnation ceremony. The meaning of "incarnated" here is to receive flesh, to become embodied as a corporeal being. Before that Femto only had a spiritual form and no actual material body.

Someone like Daiva or someone else of extreme influence?

Daiba is hardly of an extreme influence. The character most often cited as a possible candidate is Gaiseric, but with our current knowledge it seems pretty unlikely that it was the case. Note that we also never have had any confirmation or even hint that there ever were members of the God Hand other than the current ones.

No, it's never be said that Femto was the first to be reincarnated into a body of flesh.

Following what I said above, Femto was not reincarnated. He had never had a body of flesh before that, since he is considered to be a different being from the original Griffith. The wording used in the original Japanese refers specifically to a spirit acquiring a body of flesh. Think of it as similar to the incarnation of Jesus in the Bible.

All the Skull Knight said was that once in 1,000 years one who exists in the divine domain is incarnated (I'm using the DH volume 18 here, so I'm sorry if that's far off from the original).

The original is conveniently vague enough that we can't be completely sure. In short it's a "once in a thousand years" event. It might or might not have happened before.

Offline Chaos

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2012, 10:49:27 PM »

Following what I said above, Femto was not reincarnated. He had never had a body of flesh before that, since he is considered to be a different being from the original Griffith. The wording used in the original Japanese refers specifically to a spirit acquiring a body of flesh. Think of it as similar to the incarnation of Jesus in the Bible.

The original is conveniently vague enough that we can't be completely sure. In short it's a "once in a thousand years" event. It might or might not have happened before.

Ah, thanks for the correction, unintentional typo.

That's interesting, though, that the original text was vague like that. I think it adds to the mystery even more. Still makes me wonder what the Skull Knight knows that hasn't been revealed. Or how he came to know it.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2012, 06:46:28 AM »
Still makes me wonder what the Skull Knight knows that hasn't been revealed. Or how he came to know it.

Well he was likely there a thousand years ago, that's how he knows. :void:

Offline Chaos

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2012, 05:58:00 PM »
Well he was likely there a thousand years ago, that's how he knows. :void:

lol, I meant his involvement. I know to question the Skull Knight would be silly :puck:
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Offline Salibu

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2012, 09:41:49 PM »
But if the wording is it happens every 1000 years, that would imply the knowledge that its happen before.

Which would leave one to believe its happened during the SKs life.

Which makes me wonder if when it happened. Was it Void?

The time would technically fit with Void being the first God Hand (of this current GH) (unless their was a previous GH)
But for someone to assume/say that it happens every 1000 years would normally imply a pattern history.

My main question is if Void (who looks much more grotesque than Femto) was incarnated...wouldnt it be hard to tell him apart from his human form?
and if he was incarnated, what current humans could it possibly be?
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Offline dasfdeas

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 11:35:58 PM »
Just a thought, but wouldn't it make sense that it would happen 1000 years after the first Eclipse?  So in other words, 1000 years after Void sacrificed Gaiseric (if that indeed happened), the age of Falconia arrives and the cycle is complete, ending with the first incarnated GH.  Perhaps Skully learned of this through Flora or Void himself at some point, either as the wiseman of his Empire or after becoming a GH?  Even if he physically watched an incarnation, it's not like we saw Griffith yell out "BY THE WAY THIS WILL HAPPEN AGAIN IN A THOUSAND YEARS! NOW GIVE ME MY KINGDOM!". 

Offline Chaos

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2012, 01:42:07 AM »
But if the wording is it happens every 1000 years, that would imply the knowledge that its happen before.

Which would leave one to believe its happened during the SKs life.

Which makes me wonder if when it happened. Was it Void?

The time would technically fit with Void being the first God Hand (of this current GH) (unless their was a previous GH)
But for someone to assume/say that it happens every 1000 years would normally imply a pattern history.

My main question is if Void (who looks much more grotesque than Femto) was incarnated...wouldnt it be hard to tell him apart from his human form?
and if he was incarnated, what current humans could it possibly be?

But as Aaz confirmed, it's vague enough that it may, or may not have happened before, but the fact of the matter is it is a known thing.

Again, as Aaz pointed out, it is more than likely that the Skull Knight was there.

Was what Void? The one who was incarnated if this happened before? I'm not sure how it works when a god hand member is incarnated, in terms of their ability to be summoned when a Beherit is activated,but if they are able to retain their powers in the physical world, why would they reside in the astral? I find it unlikely.

I think it's pointless to base predictions on how an apostle would look in human form based solely on their transformation, or vice versa. Griffith's release has bird like feet. Zodd has fur and hooves. Both cases you couldn't have predicted unless you saw them transform. On the inverse, the count was pretty gnarly looking. Would you have guessed he looked like a pretty normal guy based on his appearance in the eclipse? I wouldn't have.

All that said, I would love to see all of the god hand take on human forms  :carcus:
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2012, 08:33:20 AM »
But if the wording is it happens every 1000 years, that would imply the knowledge that its happen before.

That's not the wording though. Like I said, it's more along the lines of it being an event that can only happen once in a thousand years.

Which makes me wonder if when it happened. Was it Void?

Wouldn't make much sense. If he was incarnated way back then, why is he not incarnated anymore? Nothing hints at it.

The time would technically fit with Void being the first God Hand (of this current GH) (unless their was a previous GH)

Actually it wouldn't. Occultation ceremonies happen every 216 years. That would mean that Void's happened 864 years ago, so earlier than "a thousand years". Of course that's assuming all this stuff is meant rigorously and isn't for emphasis.

My main question is if Void (who looks much more grotesque than Femto) was incarnated...wouldnt it be hard to tell him apart from his human form?

We don't know what he would look like, but it's a fair guess that he wouldn't be monstrous.

and if he was incarnated, what current humans could it possibly be?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Last time we saw Void he hadn't been incarnated. If he were to be, he'd probably look like his former self from back when he was human.

Just a thought, but wouldn't it make sense that it would happen 1000 years after the first Eclipse?

Wouldn't make more or less sense than anything else in my opinion. Anyway, see what I said above about the dates. The "oldest" Eclipse we can be sure of would have happened 864 years before.

I'm not sure how it works when a god hand member is incarnated, in terms of their ability to be summoned when a Beherit is activated

If that's any indication, Femto wasn't present when Balzac sacrificed Annette in the Dreamcast game.

Offline Salibu

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2012, 01:53:41 PM »
I certainly wont argue with Az. I may be new to an account here...but Ive been lurking on these forums for years. So I know hes a genius on this stuff.

My next question is then:

If its not Void and we dont know if one happened. How did the SK know so much about the situation and the times it occurs.

Wouldnt his knowledge of it imply its happened before and if it has...
Do you guys have any guesses if that incarnated being is still alive...and who it might be?
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2012, 02:32:05 PM »
If its not Void and we dont know if one happened. How did the SK know so much about the situation and the times it occurs.

Wouldnt his knowledge of it imply its happened before and if it has...

Keep in mind the Skull Knight has had knowledge of a lot of things that we can't explain. That being said, we don't know anything for sure. Maybe the ceremony did happen, but didn't go as planned. Maybe it went as planned but the incarnated being was slain. Maybe only its body was destroy and its spirit survived. There are many possibilities.

Do you guys have any guesses if that incarnated being is still alive...and who it might be?

If it happened, I don't think the one in question is still alive. As a matter of fact, if it had happened and gone as planned, I doubt the story would be at its current point right now.

Offline Salibu

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2012, 05:39:36 PM »
Crazy Question Incoming...

Is it possible SK was in the previous God Hand? or the previous incarnated being?
He just seems to know way too much.
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Offline Walter

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Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2012, 05:43:13 PM »
Crazy Question Incoming...

Is it possible SK was in the previous God Hand? or the previous incarnated being?
He just seems to know way too much.
It's not really crazy... it's a question that's been asked on these forums a few dozen times. It seems like almost everyone has asked it at one point or another. But no, it's extremely unlikely, if not impossible.

I think you should listen to our three-part Podcast on the Skull Knight for some more information and discussion on this subject and more: (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3).
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Giovanna

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2012, 10:14:04 PM »
That's not the wording though. Like I said, it's more along the lines of it being an event that can only happen once in a thousand years.

So, what you mean is that even though it can happen, it does not necessarily means it will happen, every 1000 years? If so, would make a lot of sense to me.

If we take Zodd's surprise when he (it?) saw Griffith's Beherit, it could mean that even thought the time for the ceremony was approaching (assuming Zodd knows that), he was not sure it would happen, because a suitable person was not found... and then it was like a confirmation?

bad English, my bad

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2012, 08:43:46 AM »
So, what you mean is that even though it can happen, it does not necessarily means it will happen

Or that it has happened before. The sentence is meant to convey how extraordinarily rare the event is more than to give an exact timetable for its occurrence(s).

If we take Zodd's surprise when he (it?) saw Griffith's Beherit, it could mean that even thought the time for the ceremony was approaching (assuming Zodd knows that), he was not sure it would happen, because a suitable person was not found... and then it was like a confirmation?

I don't think it was that complicated. Zodd was just surprised to find the beherit on a "random guy" he'd just swatted aside in an unremarkable battle. Apostles aren't usually kept informed of what's going on as far as we can tell. Also, keep in mind that SK's comment about the incarnation ceremony may not apply to occultation ceremonies, we don't know the specifics of these things.

Offline randomzero

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2012, 03:40:35 AM »
Quote from: Aazealh
Occultation ceremonies happen every 216 years. That would mean that Void's happened 864 years ago, so earlier than "a thousand years". Of course that's assuming all this stuff is meant rigorously and isn't for emphasis.

The "oldest" Eclipse we can be sure of would have happened 864 years before.

We can't be sure that an eclipse occurred then, 864 years ago, unless you assume that a member of God Hand is "born" every 216 years without fail. I don't think that's the case. I think it's more for emphasis. The ceremony may occur every 216 years without fail, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the designated person will make the sacrifice. It also may not occur, and only be a possibility within that timeframe(which is what I personally believe).

The wise man locked in the Tower of Conviction by Gaiseric has 4 angels descend to him. I take that to mean 4 members of God Hand. Maybe Void was the wise man, or perhaps he was one of the 4 angels. In any case, I think it's safe to say that occultation ceremonies happened prior to 864 years ago. Griffith's could theoretically be the first since then, also. It depends on if and/or how God Hand members are switched out. If they are switched out, then Void could be the wise man. If not, there may have been another incarnation around that period of time.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2012, 06:08:20 AM »
We can't be sure that an eclipse occurred then, 864 years ago, unless you assume that a member of God Hand is "born" every 216 years without fail. I don't think that's the case. I think it's more for emphasis. The ceremony may occur every 216 years without fail, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the designated person will make the sacrifice. It also may not occur, and only be a possibility within that timeframe(which is what I personally believe).

These things don't tend to fail too often from what we've seen, though. They're carefully planned and crafted. I can't imagine too many situations where the "chosen one" would plain refuse to sacrifice. I could see it happening once, in an exceptional case, but regularly? Nah, unless the process matured over time and what we saw with Griffith was the culmination of its refinement.

As for only being a possibility within a timeframe, well, that's not how it's presented to us in the series.

The wise man locked in the Tower of Conviction by Gaiseric has 4 angels descend to him. I take that to mean 4 members of God Hand. Maybe Void was the wise man, or perhaps he was one of the 4 angels. In any case, I think it's safe to say that occultation ceremonies happened prior to 864 years ago. Griffith's could theoretically be the first since then, also.

Four or five, depending on the version of the story. Anyway, I think Void's role and attitude within the God Hand seem to belie the idea that he was the second to last member to be introduced among the current ones.

It depends on if and/or how God Hand members are switched out. If they are switched out, then Void could be the wise man.

But how would they be "switched out" exactly? That's the big question. They're not easy to kill.

Offline randomzero

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2012, 12:15:30 AM »
Well, I don't think that someone would refuse the sacrifice regularly; rather, exceptional circumstances and such could prevent the process from taking place to begin with, or interrupt it. Skull Knight may have interrupted a few himself, given Zodd's presence for the last occultation.

I'm not sure what you mean about Void's role and attitude suggesting he was the second to last. I'd appreciate more explanation for what you mean. Personally, I think his attitude suggests seniority within the group.

Quote from: Aazealh
But how would they be "switched out" exactly? That's the big question. They're not easy to kill.
Yes, it is, and I agree. They could simply be replaced every 216 years, but if so, why were there only 4 before Femto joined? There is evidence towards a God Hand of 4 or 5 at the time of the Tower of Conviction occultation. So, you would think that there would always be 5 members, but I remember it being said or implied that there hasn't been a 5th member in quite some time.

Sorry, I'm tired and typing a lot. What I'm getting at is that we don't have enough information to definitively say that an eclipse occurs every 216 years and the oldest one we know of was 864 years ago. By taking the text literally you can come to that conclusion, I know, but it seems to leave a lot of questions and holes.

Offline Walter

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Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2012, 12:57:33 AM »
I'm not sure what you mean about Void's role and attitude suggesting he was the second to last. I'd appreciate more explanation for what you mean. Personally, I think his attitude suggests seniority within the group.
I believe he means that Void appeared last among the initial 4 God Hand members, and it was a pretty grand entrance—spilling forth from the eclipsed sun, and all.



Void is also the one who seems to lead the sacrificial ceremonies and keep them on track, evidenced both at the Eclipse and at the Count's ceremony in Volume 3. So yeah, no argument here that he seems to hold a senior position among the God Hand members, from what little we have seen of them.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2012, 06:25:25 AM »
Skull Knight may have interrupted a few himself, given Zodd's presence for the last occultation.

Zodd's presence seemed to have been a guess on his part more than anything (he says so himself). He felt that the Skull Knight wouldn't miss that opportunity, and he was right. But when you see the God Hand's reaction to his intervention, they all seem pretty surprised (and somewhat delighted for some) at what he pulled off. This implies that they didn't expect it.

I'm not sure what you mean about Void's role and attitude suggesting he was the second to last.

Suggesting he wasn't second to last. You said "Griffith's could theoretically be the first since then", "then" referring to what you assumed what Void's own Occultation ceremony. That would mean the other 3 members would be older. I don't believe it is the case.

There is evidence towards a God Hand of 4 or 5 at the time of the Tower of Conviction occultation.

There are hints, but no certainty. You talk about not taking the text literally below, but here you're assuming there was an Occultation ceremony at the time, which isn't sure.

So, you would think that there would always be 5 members, but I remember it being said or implied that there hasn't been a 5th member in quite some time.

No such thing is said at any point in the manga. However it is made clear that the God Hand is complete with its fifth member, and that the "grand plan" can now begin in earnest.

What I'm getting at is that we don't have enough information to definitively say that an eclipse occurs every 216 years

It's said in the manga that these ceremonies occur every 216 years. That's all.

and the oldest one we know of was 864 years ago.

You should probably re-read the context in which I posted this, to better understand what I meant. Your emphasis on this point is unnecessary.

By taking the text literally you can come to that conclusion, I know, but it seems to leave a lot of questions and holes.

Hehehe, unfortunately there are a lot of questions and holes no matter how you approach the problem. :slan: We just don't have enough information to come to a definitive conclusion for now.

Offline randomzero

Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2012, 01:17:40 AM »
Quote from: Aazealh
Suggesting he wasn't second to last. You said "Griffith's could theoretically be the first since then", "then" referring to what you assumed what Void's own Occultation ceremony. That would mean the other 3 members would be older. I don't believe it is the case.

I agree, and don't think so either. I suppose, like you said, that I'm putting too much stock into the story of the wise man. By assuming that the angels were members of God Hand, it makes things more difficult to understand with the information we currently have.

Quote from: Aazealh
Quote from: randomzero on October 09, 2012, 07:15:30 PM
So, you would think that there would always be 5 members, but I remember it being said or implied that there hasn't been a 5th member in quite some time.

No such thing is said at any point in the manga. However it is made clear that the God Hand is complete with its fifth member, and that the "grand plan" can now begin in earnest.

I guess I read too much into it, or just flat out wrong. I was more interested in why there aren't always 5 members, though. Again, this is more to do with assuming things about the wise man's story.

Quote from: Aazealh
Hehehe, unfortunately there are a lot of questions and holes no matter how you approach the problem. :slan: We just don't have enough information to come to a definitive conclusion for now.

Yeah, I was just trying to reason things out to make sense of how the process works. You're right, though, it's just speculation until things are further explained.

Anyway, I apologize for my incoherent babble and contradictions. Thanks for your patience.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2012, 11:58:23 AM »
I suppose, like you said, that I'm putting too much stock into the story of the wise man. By assuming that the angels were members of God Hand, it makes things more difficult to understand with the information we currently have.

The issue is that your assumption isn't bad in itself. The first thought everyone has is that it refers to members of the God Hand, and that the cataclysm that destroyed Gaiseric's city was related to that event with the wise man. But there are contradictions with the rest of the information we're given, and so we're left with little solid ground to build hypotheses on.

Anyway, I apologize for my incoherent babble and contradictions. Thanks for your patience.

Nah, don't feel bad about it. It's courageous to try to tackle this issue, it's just that we can't know for sure at this point. Besides, this exchange with you brought to mind that I probably should try to propose a few comprehensive and plausible theories, filling the gaps with smart guesses. Maybe I'll do that sometime. :serpico:

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Incarnation Ceremony...is Femto's the real first one?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2012, 05:38:19 PM »
This exchange with you brought to mind that I probably should try to propose a few comprehensive and plausible theories, filling the gaps with smart guesses. Maybe I'll do that sometime. :serpico:

I'd be a fan of that.   :schnoz: