Author Topic: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5  (Read 10718 times)

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Offline Griffith

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2012, 04:44:57 AM »
I get what you're saying, and I used my own little work in the same example in a previous post.

Yeah, and to answer your question (even if it was rhetorical), I think people would have liked that track under any circumstances because it was emotionally compelling and structurally the music told a story. It comes through that it was a labor of love and fit the series well.

I've always been keen to soundtracks in general, even at the most horrible films, for the most part there are tracks that I do like.

Now that you mention it, I might have been so pleasantly surprised by the soundtrack because I've had such low expectations for the rest of the movie (it helps that I can't hold the music to the standard of the manga =).

Anyone that likes scores should always have a "best of soundtrack" album in their CINCO MIDI organizer to avoid having to deal with the other pile.  :void:.

 :ganishka:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSwqnR327fk

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2012, 09:23:24 AM »
It's one of my favorites too, but my point was that on the surface there's nothing incredible about its composition. If we heard it for the first time shuffled somewhere in the middle of this OST, would we appreciate it the same way, would it stand out above everything else, or would we consume it in the same fashion as the rest of the album?

Ghosts, on the other hand, now that's an incredible composition! :iva:

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2012, 05:30:34 PM »
Great new Skullcast guys!  Great insight from Aaz about Skull Knight's rescue of Luca mirroring his rescue of Rickert.  Same for the discussion of SK's possible attempt to prevent the incarnation, as well as a role reversal of the eclipse with Zodd and Skull Knight.  Did Zodd overpower SK or just charge in?  We'll never know, but it's interesting to consider.

Also I love the analysis of Miura's storytelling style.  Walter and Griffith's discussion of how and why SK was portrayed 'in the shadows' in Vol 24 was interesting.  Keep it up guys!   :serpico: 

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2012, 10:11:56 AM »
a role reversal of the eclipse with Zodd and Skull Knight.

I don't think there was a role reversal, given that I doubt the Skull Knight had any interest in preventing Zodd from going there. Rather, it's more likely that Zodd sought him out to fight on purpose (which leads SK to reflect that everything is happening again). If Zodd had just wanted to get there unhindered he could have flown in without any problem. The other possibility is that they bumped into each other without intending to, because of causality.

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2012, 09:23:32 PM »
I doubt the Skull Knight had any interest in preventing Zodd from going there.

I'm not so sure.  Zodd essentially evacuates Griffith from the area before the Kushan army can show up and defends him from the Bakiraka.  To say he "rescued" Griffith would be a big stretch, as all facts point to Griffith being untouchable.  But it certainly would've been inconvenient if he was stranded naked in the middle of the towers ruins surrounded by Midland's invaders.

If the events from the eclipse were mirrored, I think an argument could be made that not only is their encounter a reflection from that time, but there roles were as well.  It's certainly not on the same level as Skull Knight beating past Zodd at the Eclipse to rescue Guts and Casca from Femto and the Apostles.  Griffith's life was never in danger.  But this encounter does appear to mirror Skull Knight's intervention at the Eclipse to get Guts and Casca out of there.  And why wouldn't SK want to thwart Zodd's intervention?

Not trying to be antagonistic, but to me it seems to fit better than the two of them just going through the motions.

Rather, it's more likely that Zodd sought him out to fight on purpose (which leads SK to reflect that everything is happening again).

While this fits Zodd's personality, I don't think it's a very accurate mirror of what happened at the Eclipse.  At the Eclipse, Zodd was playing "the gatekeeper."  Though he took the term as an insult similar to "errand boy" (and this is likely how SK intended it) that's essentially what I saw him as.  I didn't see any indication that he sought out SK for a fight at that time.  He was protecting the GHs interests, the same as he'd done at Doldrey and with Wyald.   

The same situation at the incarnation.  He was there to "protect" and retrieve Griffith, and a fight with SK was just happy coincidence, not the other way around.

If Zodd had just wanted to get there unhindered he could have flown in without any problem.

Excellent point.  I suppose he had some time for a brawl before the incarnation.  It's not as if he doesn't enjoy fighting with SK.

The other possibility is that they bumped into each other without intending to, because of causality.

I always assumed that this was the case.  I doubt Zodd specifically sought SK out, it just mirrored the eclipse, and so they ran into one another like last time.  Their paths all intersected as a result of causality.  Not that Zodd would mind confronting Skull Knight...

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2012, 11:18:42 PM »
I'm not so sure.  Zodd essentially evacuates Griffith from the area before the Kushan army can show up and defends him from the Bakiraka.

Yes, because Griffith really needed to be defended against the Bakiraka, as was made clear by the Skull Knight in volume 28 when he said no ordinary man was a threat to him, or that Flora was more dangerous to him than an army of 10,000. Even though he's a supernatural being, just imagine what a well-placed arrow could do to him at close range (see volume 22 for reference)!

But it certainly would've been inconvenient if he was stranded naked in the middle of the towers ruins surrounded by Midland's invaders.

Yeah like that time when Ganishka exploded and he had to fly away using his own wings.

If the events from the eclipse were mirrored, I think an argument could be made that not only is their encounter a reflection from that time, but there roles were as well.

Then perhaps you ought to remember that Zodd specifically told the Skull Knight at the time that he wasn't guarding the Occultation ceremony. His sole interest was only ever to fight. So, in short, exactly what I said.

And why wouldn't SK want to thwart Zodd's intervention?

Zodd sought SK out, not the other way around. SK was talking to Luca, then just as she left, Zodd arrived. Zodd could have gotten to the place in many different ways, easily avoiding trouble if he had meant to. It clearly wasn't the case. As for why the Skull Knight wouldn't want to thwart Zodd's intervention? First, nothing leads us to believe he was aware of said intervention, and second, when said intervention actually occurred, he was content to just look at it happen and didn't try to prevent it. Like I explained in the podcast, he likely knew his chance was gone. Preventing the incarnation would have been possible had he managed to kill the Beherit-Apostle. That was his chance and that is what he tried to do. Whether Zodd got there or not changed nothing. Once Femto was incarnated, it was over.

While this fits Zodd's personality, I don't think it's a very accurate mirror of what happened at the Eclipse.

It is, see above.

At the Eclipse, Zodd was playing "the gatekeeper."

Wrong, he specifically denies it. You should re-read that part of the story. And by the way, it's hilarious to believe that the members of the God Hand somehow need Zodd to protect them.

I suppose he had some time for a brawl before the incarnation.  It's not as if he doesn't enjoy fighting with SK.

That's not consistent with the rest of what you're saying.

I doubt Zodd specifically sought SK out, it just mirrored the eclipse

Zodd was waiting for the Skull Knight during the Occultation ceremony. So yeah, it mirrored it.

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2012, 01:26:04 AM »
Hey guys keep those questions coming. I know we haven't answered them in a few shows, but I'm waiting until we get like, 3-5 really great ones. So hit us with your best shot. Doesn't have to be about Berserk.

Just remember to bold them!
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2012, 01:38:45 AM »
Okay, non-Berserk here. Tell us your experiences, good and bad, with MMORPGs, the weirdest people you've met, worst ones you've sat through for some reason, your first awkward time playing one. Anything fun/funny about the genre.

This has to have some good answers... :slan:

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2012, 01:46:31 AM »
Okay, non-Berserk here. Tell us your experiences, good and bad, with MMORPGs, the weirdest people you've met, worst ones you've sat through for some reason, your first awkward time playing one. Anything fun/funny about the genre.

This has to have some good answers... :slan:
Oh yeah I can already tell you that me and Aaz at least have some stories about MMOs.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2012, 05:03:26 AM »
ApostleBob, to follow up on what Aaz said, you're taking the circumstantial "role reversal" of that encounter to a point that just isn't supported by the text, particularly their motivations, in both your interpretation of the Eclipse and Incarnation ceremonies. While the events certainly parallel, everyone's reasons didn't have to. It was quintessentially ritualistic in the sense that it was the acts along with their symbolic meaning to the previous event that really mattered, not their literal meaning to everyone present at the time (almost all of which were unwitting participants). The symmetry is no less compelling though, Zodd and Skull Knight confronting each other again, only this time it's Zodd that crashes the ceremony and takes Griffith away while Skull Knight watches and contemplates the consequences. :SK:

(Skully owed him one. :badbone:)

Tell us your experiences, good and bad, with MMORPGs, the weirdest people you've met, worst ones you've sat through for some reason, your first awkward time playing one. Anything fun/funny about the genre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A21wxZKiao8

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2012, 08:58:53 AM »
Okay, non-Berserk here. Tell us your experiences, good and bad, with MMORPGs, the weirdest people you've met, worst ones you've sat through for some reason, your first awkward time playing one. Anything fun/funny about the genre.

Where to even begin... :ganishka:

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2012, 08:49:17 PM »
Yes, because Griffith really needed to be defended against the Bakiraka, as was made clear by the Skull Knight in volume 28 when he said no ordinary man was a threat to him, or that Flora was more dangerous to him than an army of 10,000. Even though he's a supernatural being, just imagine what a well-placed arrow could do to him at close range (see volume 22 for reference)!

and

And by the way, it's hilarious to believe that the members of the God Hand somehow need Zodd to protect them.

You're cherry picking what I said.  I specifically acknowledge that Griffith is untouchable in the material world.

To say he "rescued" Griffith would be a big stretch, as all facts point to Griffith being untouchable. 

It's certainly not on the same level as Skull Knight beating past Zodd at the Eclipse to rescue Guts and Casca from Femto and the Apostles.  Griffith's life was never in danger. 

I was trying to make the distinction that while Skull Knight very specifically rescued Guts and Casca from danger, Zodd merely escorted Griffith out of an awkward situation.  He certainly didn't do it because Griffith was in danger.  More likely it was out of deep respect for the one who defeated him, and so that Griffith could make a proper re-introduction to the world as a hero when he liberates the Kushan captured castle with the new Band of the Hawk.

Sure Zodd slaughtered a bunch of Bakiraka that attacked Griffith.  I don't think he did it because he thought Griffith was in danger, but rather because their attack was disrespectful to his master. 

Yeah like that time when Ganishka exploded and he had to fly away using his own wings.

The main difference is that there were dozens of witnesses at the incarnation that would be able to identify Griffith as a scary supernatural being if he transformed into Femto.  This would be pretty inconvenient as he's about to go on the Public Relations tour as the savior of Midland.  He can't have rumors that he's a bat-like monster.

Also, when he flew away from Ganishka, he was literally above the clouds where no one could see him.  Once he was back within view, sure enough, he was back in human form riding Zodd.

So technically you're right.  He could have flown off on his own to get out of there, but if there's one thing we know about Griffith, it's that he cares how the public perceives him. 

Then perhaps you ought to remember that Zodd specifically told the Skull Knight at the time that he wasn't guarding the Occultation ceremony. His sole interest was only ever to fight. So, in short, exactly what I said.

Wrong, he specifically denies it. You should re-read that part of the story.

I am aware of this, I just interpreted it differently.  As I said.

He took the term as an insult similar to "errand boy" (and this is likely how SK intended it) that's essentially what I saw him as...  He was protecting the GHs interests, the same as he'd done at Doldrey and with Wyald.

In the scene you're referencing, I saw SK's inquiry as to whether he had been commanded to be the gatekeeper as more than just an innocent question.  It's an insult to someone as proud as Zodd.  It's like calling him an errand boy that isn't invited to the party.  Considering their rivalry, I don't think it's out of the question for Skull Knight to trash talk him.

Sure Zodd denies it and says he doesn't care about the eclipse and that he's out here to fight  of his own will.  But I read into this as a weak excuse to cover some wounded pride.  Zodd has always acted superior and independent, but has also acted like a lap dog previously to protect the GHs interests.  I always thought of this as a taunt on SK's part that Zodd was posing as something he wasn't. 

Why would the GH need him to do this?  Well, if the GH knew that the SK might interfere with these junction points, assigning Zodd to be watch dog was a good insurance policy.  And just think what would've happened if he didn't stall SK for a while.  Most likely Casca wouldn't have been raped and the incarnation would have been hindered pretty significantly without Casca's tainted child.

This being said I did re-read it, and it's much more ambiguous than I remembered.  Zodd initially says he knew that Skull Knight would show before Skull Knight makes the gate keeper remark.  I still think it's possible that Zodd is making excuses for running the GHs errands, but I'll admit it makes my initial interpretation much weaker.  I could be completely off on this.

Zodd sought SK out, not the other way around. SK was talking to Luca, then just as she left, Zodd arrived. Zodd could have gotten to the place in many different ways, easily avoiding trouble if he had meant to. It clearly wasn't the case. As for why the Skull Knight wouldn't want to thwart Zodd's intervention? First, nothing leads us to believe he was aware of said intervention, and second, when said intervention actually occurred, he was content to just look at it happen and didn't try to prevent it. Like I explained in the podcast, he likely knew his chance was gone. Preventing the incarnation would have been possible had he managed to kill the Beherit-Apostle. That was his chance and that is what he tried to do. Whether Zodd got there or not changed nothing. Once Femto was incarnated, it was over.

I saw it more as causality bringing them together at that point.  How would Zodd know where to find him, especially at a place as widespread as Albion and especially with SK bouncing all over the place.  But on everything else, you make a sound argument.  SK couldn't prevent the incarnation at this point, and hindering Zodd from getting to Griffith would have achieved very little.

ApostleBob, to follow up on what Aaz said, you're taking the circumstantial "role reversal" of that encounter to a point that just isn't supported by the text, particularly their motivations, in both your interpretation of the Eclipse and Incarnation ceremonies.

Yeah, I think I'm starting to read too much into it.  Depth that isn't quite there or at least not intentionally.  I think I got a bit excited with Aazealh's observation that SK saving Luca paralleled his rescue of Rickert. Never noticed it before, but it sure fits.  I think that's part of what I love about Miura's storytelling; it's very rich and nuanced but rarely obvious on first glance.  It rewards re-reads with new insights each time.

The symmetry is no less compelling though, Zodd and Skull Knight confronting each other again, only this time it's Zodd that crashes the ceremony and takes Griffith away while Skull Knight watches and contemplates the consequences. :SK:

Agreed.  Either way I still love it.


Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2012, 11:44:02 PM »
You're cherry picking what I said.  I specifically acknowledge that Griffith is untouchable in the material world.

I'm pointing out the irrationality of what you say. That you contradict yourself does not matter in that regard.

More likely it was out of deep respect for the one who defeated him

He was just the first apostle to pledge his loyalty to Griffith. The others followed quickly enough.

The main difference is that there were dozens of witnesses at the incarnation that would be able to identify Griffith as a scary supernatural being if he transformed into Femto.

Oh boy, the Bakiraka could have been able to identify Griffith as a scary supernatural being! Do you think they might have even tried to kill him had they known he wasn't just a regular guy?

This would be pretty inconvenient as he's about to go on the Public Relations tour as the savior of Midland.  He can't have rumors that he's a bat-like monster.

Yeah man, imagine what the gossip would be among his enemies! They'd never believe he was their savior! Whereas flying off naked on top of a monster made him look like a saint!

So technically you're right.

Glad we agree.

I am aware of this, I just interpreted it differently.  As I said.

You didn't "interpret it differently". You're refuting what we're told in the story in order to believe what you want. I'm sorry but that's not a valid basis for anything.

In the scene you're referencing, I saw SK's inquiry as to whether he had been commanded to be the gatekeeper as more than just an innocent question.  It's an insult to someone as proud as Zodd.  It's like calling him an errand boy that isn't invited to the party.  Considering their rivalry, I don't think it's out of the question for Skull Knight to trash talk him.

Please save yourself the trouble of trying to tell me what the characters say to each other. It's just embarrassing.

Why would the GH need him to do this?  Well, if the GH knew that the SK might interfere with these junction points, assigning Zodd to be watch dog was a good insurance policy.

You're assuming the GH knew what would happen, cared to prevent it, had the means of telling Zodd what to do, went through the trouble, and that he cared to do it. That's basically fan fiction. Almost all of it goes directly against what's in the story. Furthermore, it doesn't actually look like a good insurance policy at all given what happened, does it? Especially considering Zodd was happy to just let SK go when he saw that Guts was still alive.

And just think what would've happened if he didn't stall SK for a while.  Most likely Casca wouldn't have been raped and the incarnation would have been hindered pretty significantly without Casca's tainted child.

Riiight, so Zodd went down on the third round like he'd been told by his coach on purpose, because the timing had to be very precise, and then all those apostles inside feigned to attack him. Same with Femto, he just missed on purpose, it was all for show. Because had Zodd actually managed to hold the Skull Knight off, Guts and Casca would have likely died like the rest of the Band of the Falcon. The fact is you have no idea whether or not the Incarnation ceremony would have been significantly hindered, nor do you even know that the God Hand was aware of the role Casca's child would play in it. They certainly couldn't have known that the Skull Knight would save Casca specifically, even if they'd somehow been able to know he was interested in Guts (which is never hinted at). Not to mention that the very concept of these junctions of times is that their outcome can't be predicted. It's even specifically mentioned by Ubik at the time. You're building speculation on top of speculation in order to justify an idea that goes against the story in every single way.

This being said I did re-read it, and it's much more ambiguous than I remembered.  Zodd initially says he knew that Skull Knight would show before Skull Knight makes the gate keeper remark.  I still think it's possible that Zodd is making excuses for running the GHs errands, but I'll admit it makes my initial interpretation much weaker.  I could be completely off on this.

Here's a tip: you are completely off, and it'd be even clearer to you had you had access to better translations. When the Falcon of Light appeared to him, he didn't waste time before fighting it. That's not exactly the behavior of a lackey. But most telling is his exchange with the SKull Knight in volume 26, when he tells him that he's only fighting him because he's the sole apostle there capable of holding his own against him. The Skull Knight then says that they each have different reasons than usual for fighting. That's because Zodd usually fights for the pleasure of it, as is shown in volume 17 during his monologue about the "ultimate strong one".

I saw it more as causality bringing them together at that point.  How would Zodd know where to find him, especially at a place as widespread as Albion and especially with SK bouncing all over the place.

Well Zodd's been pretty good at finding people in other occasions, and the Skull Knight had been moving around quite a bit just then. That being said, it's clear to me that causality played a major role in their meeting at this point, just like it did in pretty much every event that took place at the time.

Yeah, I think I'm starting to read too much into it.  Depth that isn't quite there or at least not intentionally.

There's a lot of depth to it, you're just not looking at it correctly when it comes to that particular point of detail.

I think I got a bit excited with Aazealh's observation that SK saving Luca paralleled his rescue of Rickert. Never noticed it before, but it sure fits.

Like Griff said, it's not like Zodd taking Griffith away doesn't parallel SK taking Guts & Casca away. It does and it was done on purpose. But the personal motivations for it (and the more specific context and finer details) don't have to and simply cannot perfectly coincide.

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2012, 12:13:39 AM »
Podcast 6 is wrapped, but it will be going up a little more later than normal. So basically, expect it by tomorrow morning   :sad:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2012, 12:29:13 AM »
Podcast 6 is wrapped, but it will be going up a little more later than normal. So basically, expect it by tomorrow morning   :sad:

That sucks, was waiting for it today, after doing some work. But tomorrow will be ok too.

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2012, 01:30:38 AM »
Podcast 6 is wrapped, but it will be going up a little more later than normal. So basically, expect it by tomorrow morning   :sad:
No worries man.  You guys do quite the weight of work in one day to get this out in the same day.  In other words... No rush =p. 

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2012, 05:20:31 AM »
Sorry for the late reply but it's been a busy weekend.

Oh boy, the Bakiraka could have been able to identify Griffith as a scary supernatural being! Do you think they might have even tried to kill him had they known he wasn't just a regular guy?

Yeah man, imagine what the gossip would be among his enemies! They'd never believe he was their savior! Whereas flying off naked on top of a monster made him look like a saint!

Hey I deserved the sarcasm.  I know Griffith flies away on the embodiment of a devil.  But the fact is, Miura didn't have him just turn into Femto and fly away on his own.  And he never does at any other point until he has a pretty private audience with Ganishka above the clouds.  I think it's been clear that Griffith makes a concentrated effort to appear both human and heroic.  He may have an army of vicious demon soldiers, but he still appears to the public and even his enemies to be a man who can tame them, not be one himself.  

Glad we agree.

We agree that Griffith could have flown away on his own without Zodd's assistance.  I'm saying that it would be out of character for Griffith, and it wouldn't have been without some consequence.  But he could have gotten away just fine.   :slan:

You didn't "interpret it differently". You're refuting what we're told in the story in order to believe what you want. I'm sorry but that's not a valid basis for anything.

Please save yourself the trouble of trying to tell me what the characters say to each other. It's just embarrassing.

Look, not everyone says what they mean in stories.  Subtext in dialogue been a basis of drama for a long time and it's not without precedent in Berserk.  If there were only one meaning to get out of a story there'd be no need for discussion.  But in this case I probably read into something that wasn't there and I acknowledged it.  But don't exaggerate and characterize me as wildly speculating without attempting to base it on anything in the book.  I've always cited where I'm basing any speculation from, and identify it as such.  There's no need for rudeness or ad hominem attacks.  :azan:

And as far as my translations being off, I was at work without my DH volume in front of me.  The actual quote wasn't off by much anyway.  

SK: "And you were given the command to guard the gate immortal one."
vs.
Me: "SK's inquiry as to whether he had been commanded to be the gatekeeper"

You're assuming the GH knew what would happen, cared to prevent it, had the means of telling Zodd what to do, went through the trouble, and that he cared to do it. That's basically fan fiction. Almost all of it goes directly against what's in the story. Furthermore, it doesn't actually look like a good insurance policy at all given what happened, does it? Especially considering Zodd was happy to just let SK go when he saw that Guts was still alive.

Riiight, so Zodd went down on the third round like he'd been told by his coach on purpose, because the timing had to be very precise, and then all those apostles inside feigned to attack him. Same with Femto, he just missed on purpose, it was all for show. Because had Zodd actually managed to hold the Skull Knight off, Guts and Casca would have likely died like the rest of the Band of the Falcon. The fact is you have no idea whether or not the Incarnation ceremony would have been significantly hindered, nor do you even know that the God Hand was aware of the role Casca's child would play in it. They certainly couldn't have known that the Skull Knight would save Casca specifically, even if they'd somehow been able to know he was interested in Guts (which is never hinted at). Not to mention that the very concept of these junctions of times is that their outcome can't be predicted. It's even specifically mentioned by Ubik at the time. You're building speculation on top of speculation in order to justify an idea that goes against the story in every single way.

You're right, all this planning does seem to go against the notion of causality just kinda working out the GH and IoE's favor.  The idea of the GH masterminding a big master strategy and ordering individual apostles to do this or that is a little absurd the more I consider all it would entail.  It's much more subtle in most of what we've seen, using people's own natures to achieve a desired goal.  There's an elegance to it.  In this case Zodd probably was there just to fight his old rival, but it worked out the IoE's favor anyway.  He was guarding the gate whether it was his intention or not, and no command was needed.  As you say, it's just in Zodd's nature to fight strong opponents.

One question about this though, assuming you agree with what I've just said about causality and the lack of "ordering" apostles to do anything:  What would motivate Zodd to go out of his way to Doldrey, not fight any of the strong warriors there, but intervene in the way he did.  Same for the intervention with Wyald.  These both feel like they're too specific to an agenda to simply be in Zodd's nature.  Perhaps he's been given a vision?  

I'm not trying to play 'gotcha,' I just have trouble rectifying these exceptions with the rest of the way causality is portrayed.

Like Griff said, it's not like Zodd taking Griffith away doesn't parallel SK taking Guts & Casca away. It does and it was done on purpose. But the personal motivations for it (and the more specific context and finer details) don't have to and simply cannot perfectly coincide.

Fair enough, you've convinced me on this point.  

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2012, 01:41:28 PM »
But the fact is, Miura didn't have him just turn into Femto and fly away on his own.  And he never does at any other point until he has a pretty private audience with Ganishka above the clouds.

He never does until he has the need to.

I think it's been clear that Griffith makes a concentrated effort to appear both human and heroic.

I'm not sure I'd say he's trying to appear human. He's concealing the fact he's evil, sure, but most people can feel right away that there's more to him than meets the eye.

We agree that Griffith could have flown away on his own without Zodd's assistance.  I'm saying that it would be out of character for Griffith, and it wouldn't have been without some consequence.  But he could have gotten away just fine.

Actually I'm pretty sure it would have been without consequence.

Subtext in dialogue been a basis of drama

Really?! :isidro:

If there were only one meaning to get out of a story there'd be no need for discussion.

Well there's no need for discussion in this particular case. :slan:

But in this case I probably read into something that wasn't there and I acknowledged it.

Sure. No big deal.

And as far as my translations being off, I was at work without my DH volume in front of me.  The actual quote wasn't off by much anyway.

That's not the part I was referring to, and I meant DH's translation in the first place.

You're right, all this planning does seem to go against the notion of causality just kinda working out the GH and IoE's favor.  The idea of the GH masterminding a big master strategy and ordering individual apostles to do this or that is a little absurd the more I consider all it would entail.  It's much more subtle in most of what we've seen, using people's own natures to achieve a desired goal.  There's an elegance to it.

Yes, and that elegant plan based on people's own nature is the Idea of Evil's doing, not the God Hand's. In fact, each member of the God Hand's own individual desires seem to concord together to further the "masterplan" based on the same mechanism. It was engineered to be that way, as explained in episode 83.

He was guarding the gate whether it was his intention or not, and no command was needed.

You know I still don't think you have to say he was guarding it. He was loitering around, waiting for the Skull Knight to show up. His intention is what determines whether he was "guarding" the ceremony or not, and as he said himself that wasn't the case. Which is shown among other things by the fact he didn't mind postponing the fight when something interesting happened (Guts & Casca surviving the sacrifice), or didn't bother going in after SK when he jumped in. This was hardly a display of loyalty (or even of care for an event that he's portrayed as being rather disdainful of).

What would motivate Zodd to go out of his way to Doldrey, not fight any of the strong warriors there, but intervene in the way he did.

Interest in one of the biggest (and definitely the most determinant) battles of the time. As for intervening in the way he did? He had shown a certain affection for Guts after their fight, and likely wanted to see a fair confrontation between two exceptional warriors (instead of Guts dying because of faulty equipment). The motives aren't lacking if you look for them.

Same for the intervention with Wyald.

That's the one time where his motivations are less clear. Annoyance against Wyald for being too talkative, revealing things he shouldn't have been? For clinging on to life in a most undignified manner while he was dying anyway? Wyald certainly fits the kind of apostle Zodd generally feels little to no sympathy for, and we know he doesn't mind killing other apostles. He might also in that particular case have been more interested in seeing the Occultation ceremony happen (if anything because he was expecting SK to show up there) than letting a moron like Wyald attempt to spoil what is a very rare and significant event. He does it rather nonchalantly as well. Arrives, kills him, talk to Griff, goes away.

Was he supposed to be there and kill Wyald? Probably, because Wyald wasn't supposed to kill Griffith. Maybe Wyald would have died anyway, and all Zodd did was to speed things up. But was he "ordered" to do it? Nope. And he says as much. When Wyald tells him he can do whatever he wants, Zodd replies that the same goes for him. And it's not like Zodd is expected to always pass on an opportunity to further the God Hand's cause either. Even if he did, it's not inconsistent with the fact he didn't wish to partake in the rabble's base worshipping and slaughter of helpless humans.

Offline alasunder

Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2012, 05:31:45 PM »
Hello all,
My first time posting here, though I've been using this site as a reference for all things Berserk for some years now, I hadn't noticed the podcasts posted here until just recently and have been working my way through them. I've really enjoyed being able to get some deeper analysis of the series through this medium. So I'd like to fist say thank you for that.

I figured there may be some members here interested to know that I believe there does exist music within the realm of 'metal' music that better echoes the range of emotion and atmosphere that can be found in Berserk than what you might find used in a typical AMV.
There is one fairly obscure album in particular that I associate strongly with Berserk for whatever reason.
It can be heard in full here -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An3IQL7LfZU

Many conventions of this style might serve to instantly repulse a first time listener, and unfortunately the synthesized instrumentation can come off as horribly cheesy at times. Yet there are moments of beauty, even in the more more extreme portions. I think it's much like our favorite manga in this regard.
I'd love to hear the thoughts of anyone who listens.
Berserk has inspired me and if I ever write some music that is reflective of that I'll be sure to post it here.
Also please excuse my terrible grammar.

Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Skullknight.NET Podcast: Episode 5
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2012, 12:28:06 PM »
That Apotheosis album's pretty under-rated. Urge you to post more in the music threads on here!
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