Author Topic: Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?  (Read 13666 times)

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Offline argon

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Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« on: March 03, 2003, 08:42:18 PM »
Each time I read the manga 13, I can't stop looking at this picture and wondering if Miura did a mistake:



It's taken from the moment when Gaston dies in front of Guts.
What do you think about Guts' left arm ? Don't you think Miura cut it in this picture ?
If you increase luminosity of this image, you can see very well the point where the arm is cut (blood, etc...)

Personally that's what I think, on this picture guts has no more left arm and the one we see is his right arm.

Maybe someone can prove me wrong (or rignt) because I have been wondering this for many years ^^;


psymont

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2003, 09:03:12 PM »
yup .... his arm is definitely missing in this pic .... no doubt about it .... i will have to look at my manga .... mistake

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2003, 09:48:18 PM »
Actualy, if you look more closely, you can see Guts' right arm.  Its laying limp at his other side;  Its that white at the inside of the bend of his waist.  

It just ends up looking really wierd.  If you zoom in really close, you can follow the curve of the arm.  I've got it at almost fullscreen right now and its fairly obvious that his arm isn't cut off.

Oh, and this is page 89 or so, for those who want to check for themselves.

Damn it, I wish I could remember my literary terms better.  I'm thinking "forebodeing", but thats not quite it.  Anyways, I think its just hinting that he's gonna lose that arm soon.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2003, 09:51:23 PM by Majin Tenshi »
Ok, so I leave and come back....

Offline namayias

Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2003, 09:59:28 PM »

Damn it, I wish I could remember my literary terms better.  I'm thinking "forebodeing", but thats not quite it.  Anyways, I think its just hinting that he's gonna lose that arm soon.
i think the word you were looking for is "foreshadowing".

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2003, 10:55:09 PM »

Damn it, I wish I could remember my literary terms better.  I'm thinking "forebodeing", but thats not quite it.  Anyways, I think its just hinting that he's gonna lose that arm soon.
i think the word you were looking for is "foreshadowing".
Thank you, I couldn't quite remember that.  
Ok, so I leave and come back....

psymont

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2003, 11:20:26 PM »
no man that arm isnt gone! his right arm is there on gastons chest .... the left is a nub
« Last Edit: March 04, 2003, 06:59:33 PM by Psymont »

Offline Mizar

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2003, 11:27:26 PM »
I think this is definitely a mistake on Miura's side. If you look closely you can clearly see the place where the right arm shows up behind the left somewhere at his elbow. You see that the two arms don't perfectly match. I guess he probably didn't have time to completely correct this mistake before the deadline, so he probably tried to conceal it and quickly draw the new right arm near his waist.

If you're not convinced just look at the position of his hand on Gaston's body, even though his left knee is in front of Gaston shoulder, his supposedly left hand is somewhere at his middle, exactly at the place you'd expect his right hand to be. Also look at the how the hand is placed on his body, exactly the way you'd expect his right hand to be placed.
Anyway, I forgive Miura, deadlines are a bitch.

psymont

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2003, 11:29:59 PM »
huh oh yeh .... he is leaning on his right arm which should be on the ground .... the right arm touching gaston is clearly an add on ....

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2003, 12:05:32 AM »
Seriously, zoom in on the picture.  You'll see that Guts arm is just in a shadow.  You'll also see that the lines match up quite nicely and that the blood stain doesn't even go all the way across the arm.

Also, that doesn't look right for a right hand.  If you pay attention, the digit is a bit long for a thumb, and there isn't a nail.

You can't just add a white arm in when you're working in black on white.  Miura would have had to start over in order to just add in that right arm.  

If you look at it in context, Guts had a sword in his hand at the time, so it couldn't be his right hand on Gaston's chest.  
Ok, so I leave and come back....

temporary

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2003, 03:45:59 AM »
yah

Offline Mark

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2003, 07:18:03 AM »
I can look at it 2 ways:

1. Guts his arms are parallel, and Miura indeed made a mistake with drawing. Since it looks like the 'darker' part of his 'left arm' is really his right arm. And thus his left arm is cut.

2. At his weists height you see this 'white piece'. This could be (like said before) his right arm hanging next to his body, and thus making the 'cut-looking arm' his left arm. But he just holds it weird on Gastons body, and it looks weird with the light/dark/blood-thing.

I just checked the manga, and I'm 99,9% sure it's a drawing error. You can obviously see that it isn't the same arm when you look closely, since it's not completely parralel. The thing next to his waist might be something else... don't know. Maybe Miuri put that in after he saw he made a mistake, and hoped no-one would notice ;)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2003, 11:56:58 AM by Markaveli63 »

psymont

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2003, 01:49:01 PM »
cover the shaded right arm with your finger .... now look, his left arm is a bloody nub .... his original right arm is supporting his weight on his right side .... the right arm you see touching gaston is definitely added in an effort to cover up a mistake .... it was added at the same angle as the left nub in an effort to cover up the fact that it is in fact a nub ....

Offline Oltobaz

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2003, 02:42:41 PM »
The first time I noticed that It took me a while to actually noticing his actually leaning on his right arm.I ended up concluding it was a drawing mistake which he had desperately
tried to cover ( he was lazy on that day maybe and didn't want
to start over...).Then again I actually like your theory of foreshadowing better.I don't think there's a way to know for sure,
but you might be right.
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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2003, 03:17:57 PM »
I believe that thing in the back is not his right arm but his erected cock.

Offline Mark

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2003, 03:45:23 PM »
I believe that thing in the back is not his right arm but his erected cock.
Umm... nice cock?

Nah, I think it's just a mistake, and he added the thing at his waist to make it look like that's the arm. Oh, well. I can't be bothered.

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2003, 03:56:11 PM »
Nah, I think it's just a mistake, and he added the thing at his waist to make it look like that's the arm. Oh, well. I can't be bothered.
HOW, EXACTLY, DO  YOU PROPOSE HE ADDED THE WHITE ARM ON THE BLACK BACKGROUND AT THE LAST MINUTE!?!?!?!

oh and since you all probably read caps slower:
How, exactly, do you propose he added the white arm on the black background at the last minute?!?!?!

Look at the context, it couldn't have initialy been his right arm because he was holding a sword at the time.

Look at the hand, its a left hand not a right one.  Not one of you has zoomed in on the picture.  If you did, you could easily see that its his left arm.
Ok, so I leave and come back....

psymont

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2003, 03:58:31 PM »
the arm on gaston is his right one .... look at the hand? i did .... its a right hand on gastons chest .... adding that right arm would be easy as taking it away ....



« Last Edit: March 11, 2003, 03:54:41 PM by Psymont-sama »

Offline argon

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2003, 06:07:08 PM »
Yeah, In my opinion , miura started by drawing Guts just like Psymont did and afterwards, he noticed the mistake and tried to correct it by adding a false grey hand (and it is technically possible, whereas the other solution, first the grey and then the white arl hidden behind, would be impossible to draw)

But nobody's perfect, and i haven't noticed any other "bug" so far.
:)

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2003, 06:10:51 PM »
NO! It isn't as easy to add the arm as it is to take it away.  You have the dark background to thank for that.  

Is it obvious to you that these pictures are basicly hand drawn?  It is to me.  Though Miura might touch up the drawings with a computer, they are almost certainly done by hand initialy.  
Anything drawn on the computer would look significantly different, not just like the shadeing in the added arm, but the lines themselves would look different.

Since it is almost certainly drawn on paper, you should realize something:  You can't erase ink.  How would Miura erase teh dark grey background to put the arm in?  The arm is, though only slightly, lighter then the surounding area.

Another thing I've noticed:  Gaston is just as dark as Guts' arm.  Perhaps thay are both in the same shadow.

EDIT:
Oh, and Psymount.  BTW, messing with the bloodstain is cheating.  Either you lengthened the blood stain to stretch accross the arm, or you fudged out the arm under the stain.  Either way, its still cheatin.
:Edit

Let me say this again because I'm certain I'm being ignored.
Expand the original picture to full screen and follow the lines of the arm.  That is enough to convince you that the arm was originaly drawn, but the blood stain just ended up makeing it look weird.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2003, 06:17:54 PM by Majin Tenshi »
Ok, so I leave and come back....

psymont

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2003, 06:54:13 PM »
i used photoshop and used the rubber stamp tool to simply cover up the "added" right arm .... i did not use any other tool but that one .... i did not lengthen or short or change the shape of anything .... i simply took the arm away .... that is all

if Miura has anyone fooled by this after the alteration i made, i suggest a visit to the eye doctor

gee, when i look at the original now it looks like guts has an arm coming out of his chest .... weird optical illusion

i am going to try your zoom now
« Last Edit: March 04, 2003, 06:59:55 PM by Psymont »

Offline Mark

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2003, 07:01:46 PM »
Hehe, what are we actually talking about... From what I see, his left arm is gone, the right is on Gastons chest. That's all. The thing at his waist MIGHT be his 'right arm', it might not. We don't know, and WE are never gonna find out. Maybe Miura'll tell us.

And it's not the only continuity bug. I remember one scene where Casca had her shoes on, the panel after that she didn't, and then she had them on again. Oh well, everyone makes mistakes.

psymont

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2003, 07:10:22 PM »
okay, i zoomed .... im not convinced but i did find something weird ....



« Last Edit: March 11, 2003, 03:54:59 PM by Psymont-sama »

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2003, 07:31:59 PM »
Psymount, now take a look at your picture and the original,  zoom in and switch back and forth real fast.  (I just opened 'em up in paint and alt+tab)

That little bit under the modified arm(I'm amazed that a program would remove that) that apears and disapears.  I believe that should be there.  It makes me even more convinced that the arm was originaly drawn.


Anyways, I'm tired.  I doubt I'll be posting in this thread anymore, but I'll probably keep reading.
Ok, so I leave and come back....

psymont

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2003, 07:48:09 PM »
you can do anything with photoshop .... taking away a bit under the arm is nothing .... i used rubber stamp and that is all(for the original modification) .... isnt your avatar something you created using technical programs? .... have u ever used photo editing software? it is easy to blotch it out ....
« Last Edit: March 04, 2003, 09:03:57 PM by Psymont-sama »

Offline Majin Tenshi

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Re:Did Miura made a mistake in this picture ?
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2003, 09:08:24 PM »
3-D Studio Max.
I modeled that and output it myself.  I'll probably be takeing opinions on whether to use a new version I'm working on before too long.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2003, 09:09:57 PM by Majin Tenshi »
Ok, so I leave and come back....