Author Topic: In layman's terms, what is Void saying?  (Read 5120 times)

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Offline ApostleBob

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In layman's terms, what is Void saying?
« on: July 16, 2012, 07:24:17 PM »
Forgive me if there's already a topic about this, but I didn't see it. 

In Volume 13, the Godhand go into detail about the sacrifice and causality, most of which is pretty clear in meaning.  However, there are two passages from Void that seem incredibly cryptic.  Perhaps they're related in principle.

For both of Void's passages I will be refering to Puella's translations.


First Passage - After Slan tells Griffith to sacrifice his men because they will surely forgive him, and to bury them in the ruins of his dream, Griffith repeats this phrase "the ruins of my dream"

Void responds:

"That is the mercy of the God created by man."

Now I understand the concept of the God created by man.  Man wanted reasons for suffering, for war, absurd deaths, etc.  The Idea of Evil.  But when he says that the sacrifice is mercy from God... Does he mean this in the sense that God is allowing him to escape his human fate as a cripple?  It seems to.  Am I off in this?


Second Passage - After showing Griffith his past and all the people that have died because of him, asking Griffith if the Castle is still what shines brightest in his mind, Void says:

"If it's a principle that fate transcends human intellect and makes playthings of humans... It's causality that humans confront fate with evil."

This is the most cryptic passage, but I read it basically that "Humans can't fathom or control their destinies... So of course they do evil things to fight an inescapable fate."   Which in the case of a sacrifice, actually kind of does alter their human destiny at the expense of making them inhuman and evil.  Perhaps the mercy of God created by man, or am I reaching too far?

What I'm basically looking for is an interpretation in plain English.  Thanks in advance

Offline Aazealh

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Re: In layman's terms, what is Void saying?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2012, 07:49:47 PM »
But when he says that the sacrifice is mercy from God... Does he mean this in the sense that God is allowing him to escape his human fate as a cripple?  It seems to.  Am I off in this?

It can be interpreted in more than one way. It's mercy in the sense that "everything" from his past will be buried in the ruins of his dream, so that nothing is left. Also in the sense that his men's despair will come to an end. And of course in the second chance given to him.

"If it's a principle that fate transcends human intellect and makes playthings of humans... It's causality that humans confront fate with evil."

This is the most cryptic passage, but I read it basically that "Humans can't fathom or control their destinies... So of course they do evil things to fight an inescapable fate."   Which in the case of a sacrifice, actually kind of does alter their human destiny at the expense of making them inhuman and evil.

What you're missing here is the full meaning of the word used in Japanese to say "evil" in this sentence (which is "魔"). It can also mean "magic". In short, humans cannot normally fathom or control their destinies, so as a consequence they resort to the kind of evil power the God Hand uses to do so.

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: In layman's terms, what is Void saying?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2012, 08:17:00 PM »
It can be interpreted in more than one way. It's mercy in the sense that "everything" from his past will be buried in the ruins of his dream, so that nothing is left.

As in the sense that he will be a completely new person in terms of personality?  That seems to conflict with some of his actions once reincarnated such as his dialogue at the Hill of swords.  Or do you mean that his former guilt and weaknesses will be washed away.

What you're missing here is the full meaning of the word used in Japanese to say "evil" in this sentence (which is "魔"). It can also mean "magic". In short, humans cannot normally fathom or control their destinies, so as a consequence they resort to the kind of evil power the God Hand uses to do so.

Thanks a bunch for clearing that up.  Good to know there's additional meaning to the word.  Out of curiosity, is this the same japanese word for evil in volume 3 when Conrad says something along the lines of "You must sacrifice someone dear, so that a fissure opens in your heart in which evil can surge."

Thanks again.

Offline Jaze1618

Re: In layman's terms, what is Void saying?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2012, 09:52:54 PM »
Thanks for asking these questions A.B.
Your #2 was something that I also have always wondered about.

Quote
As in the sense that he will be a completely new person in terms of personality?  That seems to conflict with some of his actions once reincarnated such as his dialogue at the Hill of swords.  Or do you mean that his former guilt and weaknesses will be washed away.

My guess would be that this applies to Femto as he appears in volume 13 before his incarnation into the Griffith vessel where some elements of Guts and Casca's child were mixed in.

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: In layman's terms, what is Void saying?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2012, 10:54:28 PM »
My guess would be that this applies to Femto as he appears in volume 13 before his incarnation into the Griffith vessel where some elements of Guts and Casca's child were mixed in.

Hmmm, it's possible.   But what about Griffith still wanting his own country above all else.  Not betraying his dream.  That sounds a lot like the old Griffith, not necessarily the child.

Online Walter

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Re: In layman's terms, what is Void saying?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2012, 11:39:14 PM »
As in the sense that he will be a completely new person in terms of personality?  That seems to conflict with some of his actions once reincarnated such as his dialogue at the Hill of swords.  Or do you mean that his former guilt and weaknesses will be washed away.
The ruins of his dream would have been his life if he had rejected the God Hand's offer. He didn't.

Quote
Out of curiosity, is this the same japanese word for evil in volume 3 when Conrad says...
Probably. I'll check when I get a chance. Consider this a placeholder until then.

But what about Griffith still wanting his own country above all else.  Not betraying his dream.  That sounds a lot like the old Griffith, not necessarily the child.
What? No one's saying the child's personality and Griffith's personality merged into some third being or something. It's not like that at all. It sounds like you're thinking yourself into circles.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: In layman's terms, what is Void saying?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2012, 08:58:47 AM »
As in the sense that he will be a completely new person in terms of personality?

Of course not.

Good to know there's additional meaning to the word.

There's additional meaning to a lot of words. Something to keep in mind.

Out of curiosity, is this the same japanese word for evil in volume 3 when Conrad says something along the lines of "You must sacrifice someone dear, so that a fissure opens in your heart in which evil can surge."

Yes.

My guess would be that this applies to Femto as he appears in volume 13 before his incarnation into the Griffith vessel where some elements of Guts and Casca's child were mixed in.

You seem confused about the coexistence of Femto and the boy. I don't see how it relates to what ApostleBob was asking. Like Walter said, Femto's incarnation did not change how he is.

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: In layman's terms, what is Void saying?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 07:59:13 PM »
What? No one's saying the child's personality and Griffith's personality merged into some third being or something. It's not like that at all. It sounds like you're thinking yourself into circles.

I was thrown off a bit by the notion that everything in his past will be buried by the ruins of his dream, so that nothing is left.  Wasn't sure of the context of that, whether Aaz meant his whole persona or what.  The child merging with his personality didn't make sense considering his consistent goals and traits.  I've always thought of Griffith as essentially the same person, just with new perspective.  Sorry for the confusion.

The ruins of his dream as his alternative to sacrifice makes a whole lot more sense.  Thanks guys.

There's additional meaning to a lot of words. Something to keep in mind.

It's a shame there's no better way to find some of these alternate meanings out, it makes the read that much richer. 

Thanks again for the insight!


Offline Aazealh

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Re: In layman's terms, what is Void saying?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2012, 09:25:26 PM »
I've always thought of Griffith as essentially the same person, just with new perspective.

The change is more profound than just having "new perspectives", though. For one thing, Femto is a very evil being.

The ruins of his dream as his alternative to sacrifice makes a whole lot more sense.

The ruins of his dream are embodied by his situation prior to the sacrifice. The sacrifice is a way to escape that.