Author Topic: Guts' impossible task  (Read 3009 times)

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Offline andrewdsz

Guts' impossible task
« on: October 31, 2012, 03:47:23 PM »
The more you read, the more  you deep inside the story, the more you realize how impossible it is for a human with some kind of normal giant sword (yes,guts do have a huge sword but can that piece of metal, yes human made metal) to be able to deal with the space twisting-ability demon overlord femto. Not mention femto's neo band of hawk.

I dont even think guts w berserk armor is able to deal with more than 5 of griffith's apostles at the same time, zodd,grunberd etc.

Guts is still a normal human, after all. That armor wont do much.. ...as far as im reading.

Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Guts' impossible task
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2012, 04:08:07 PM »
Space twisting-ability demon overlord femto and normal giant sword - made me chuckle.

The first time he wore the armor, he was able to crack Grunbelds armor in his apostle form - that actually speaks a lot about the potential power of the Berserker armor and the sword as a combination. With more control over the armor and Schierke's guidance, he's a lot better in battle in that sense. Fighting Zodd, Grunbeld and more apostles at the same time is unlikely to happen if Zodd's in a fight because of Zodd's pride, he'd like to battle a worthy opponent alone. With Guts' current capability, I feel it'll be very good and close fights with higher ranked apostles.

Guts doesn't have to fight/ defeat Femto and the new Band of The Hawk by himself, he has a group who can help.

There is a limitation to his ability even with the armor on and we saw that with his fight against the Sea God. His opponents are very dangerous. Possible upgrade(s) are speculated to happen, if any, when the group reaches Elfhelm.
At the end of time, a moment will come when just one man remains. Then the moment will pass. Man will be gone. There will be nothing to show that we were ever here... but stardust.

Offline Gaahl

Re: Guts' impossible task
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2012, 04:12:08 PM »
That is the whole point. From the beginning, Guts was always fighting against increasingly "impossible to beat" enemies. And yet somehow he wins.

Dragonslayer and berserker armor might very well not be enough but just imagine what could be introduced that closes the gap in power eventually. Before Guts got this armor I certainly wouldn't have guessed he would some day plunge himself into the jaws of an island-sized Monster and kill it by slashing it's heart from the inside after cutting through it's stomach.
If I look at all the things that where introduced to the story that made it possible to pull that feat of, I can hardly wait to see what else will be introduced before the end of the series.

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Guts' impossible task
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2012, 04:34:27 PM »
Also Guts is not a normal human. Ever since he was branded he exists in the interstice, but to what extent the exact impacts of this have had on him are not known for certain.

Offline Walter

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Re: Guts' impossible task
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2012, 06:43:16 PM »
Yeah, it seems overwhelming, but he's the hero of the story. He'll triumph in the end, we just don't know how yet. Of course, things have been improving for him since Femto was incarnated. As Guts said, "now he's within reach of my sword." The variables are still expanding, but soon they'll contract. We're at a crux in the story, so it's likely that we'll learn the outline of things to come soon enough—either in Elfhelm or Falconia.

Also Guts is not a normal human. Ever since he was branded he exists in the interstice, but to what extent the exact impacts of this have had on him are not known for certain.
That's hardly relevant now that the worlds have merged...
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Guts' impossible task
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2012, 07:57:42 PM »
Ever since he was branded he exists in the interstice, but to what extent the exact impacts of this have had on him are not known for certain.

It doesn't seem to have done anything except maybe give him an edge in experience.  Unlike the rest of the world, he's seen and fought astral creatures for a good year or two already so the rest of the world's just catching up to him.

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Guts' impossible task
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2012, 08:18:18 PM »
That's hardly relevant now that the worlds have merged...

What about looking at it from the perspective of a jumping fish in the water? My understanding was that Guts' existence in the interstice is the very thing which allowed him to make waves. Do you disagree?

Now that the worlds have merged is it necessarily true that this is no longer a factor for Guts? I was inclined to think that we lack the information to take a definitive stance.

I concede that the phrase "worlds have merged" seems to imply that there simply no longer is an interstice (a place between the worlds of living and the dead) because there is no longer any space between the worlds at all.

What do we think this could mean for the flow of causality and the ability of common folk to make a splash now? Is Guts on the same playing field as everyone else now? Would that be because everyone else's abilities were heightened with the merger, or Guts own advantage from the interstice was lessened? Thank you for allowing me my curiosity.  :guts:
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 08:28:29 PM by Jaze1618 »

Offline Walter

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Re: Guts' impossible task
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2012, 02:21:33 AM »
there simply no longer is an interstice (a place between the worlds of living and the dead) because there is no longer any space between the worlds at all.
This is all I meant. The entire world is now living in a version of the hell Guts has endured over the past 2 years. The only difference is that he's branded, and they're not.

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What do we think this could mean for the flow of causality and the ability of common folk to make a splash now?
The worlds merging was clearly a result of causality. And the people following Griffith aren't working against causality, so I don't see what you're getting at there.

It sounds to me like you're expanding the jumping fish analogy beyond its means. Guts' advantage was always in being a determined force that could sometimes work against the God Hand's plans. That had less to do with his existence in the world, and more with his resolve against Femto and the God Hand, but of course both of these factors are significant. You should also keep in mind that even after being sacrificed, Guts and Casca still undeniably played key roles in the plans of the God Hand/causality—namely in initiating the birth ceremony in volume 19, and giving birth to the body Griffith would later inherit.

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Is Guts on the same playing field as everyone else now?
Existentially speaking, yeah, it seems that way. But as someone said above—Guts has honed years of experienced with living this way because of his brand.

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Would that be because everyone else's abilities were heightened with the merger, or Guts own advantage from the interstice was lessened? Thank you for allowing me my curiosity.
The answer is no, but what abilities did you have in mind exactly?
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts' impossible task
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2012, 11:52:41 AM »
some kind of normal giant sword (yes,guts do have a huge sword but can that piece of metal, yes human made metal)

You seem to forget that it has already been established in volume 26 that the Dragon Slayer had become more than a simple chunk of metal. After having slain so many evil creatures, it has gained the ability to "hurt" the God Hand. That is how Guts could dispel Slan's apparition in the Qliphoth.

I dont even think guts w berserk armor is able to deal with more than 5 of griffith's apostles at the same time, zodd,grunberd etc.

They're not in the habit of tagging along together at all times.

Guts is still a normal human, after all.

I can't agree with that. He certainly is human, but I wouldn't call him "normal". He was always exceptional, even long before the Eclipse.

Furthermore, like Gaahl said Guts has defeated enemies that were technically much stronger than him before. And right now the average apostle is no match for him anymore.

What do we think this could mean for the flow of causality and the ability of common folk to make a splash now?

The prudent stance would be that we don't know for sure yet. We understand what happened through our knowledge of the principles involved, and said knowledge is not as complete as it could be. My first thought with the merging of the worlds would be that everyone can now make a difference, but this is subject to unknown variables and could not be the case at all. My take on it so far has been that the Idea of Evil and the God Hand are taking a calculated risk with this bid for power. While they now have the potential to gain an immense power over the world, they've also become more vulnerable than they used to be. But given their power, they're likely not too worried (if only they knew how big of a mistake this is :carcus:), as that risk if well worth the reward they're coveting.

Is Guts on the same playing field as everyone else now? Would that be because everyone else's abilities were heightened with the merger, or Guts own advantage from the interstice was lessened?

See above: it's too early to tell. It's a clear possibility, and it could go either way too, but I'm personally disinclined to believe Guts can no longer affect things.

It sounds to me like you're expanding the jumping fish analogy beyond its means. Guts' advantage was always in being a determined force that could sometimes work against the God Hand's plans. That had less to do with his existence in the world, and more with his resolve against Femto and the God Hand, but of course both of these factors are significant.

I disagree with that. Being in the Insterstice is what allowed Guts to make a difference, as the Skull Knight explained to him. That's what the analogy is about. Guts' will and strength certainly matter too, but what the Skull Knight's analogy is about is one's ability to make a difference based on what world they exist in. To quote him: "as long as we are in this world, we are nothing more than shadows on the water". That was the case for normal people before. Guts existed beyond the physical world and so he had the potential to make a difference, however small it was. Had he not been branded at the time, no amount of determination could have made a difference.

You should also keep in mind that even after being sacrificed, Guts and Casca still undeniably played key roles in the plans of the God Hand/causality—namely in initiating the birth ceremony in volume 19, and giving birth to the body Griffith would later inherit.

The plans of the Idea of Evil. Causality is just a principle of the world, like gravity. The Idea of Evil is the will that manipulates it to achieve its own ends.

Offline Walter

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Re: Guts' impossible task
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2012, 03:37:53 PM »
Being in the Insterstice is what allowed Guts to make a difference, as the Skull Knight explained to him. That's what the analogy is about. Guts' will and strength certainly matter too, but what the Skull Knight's analogy is about is one's ability to make a difference based on what world they exist in. To quote him: "as long as we are in this world, we are nothing more than shadows on the water". That was the case for normal people before. Guts existed beyond the physical world and so he had the potential to make a difference, however small it was. Had he not been branded at the time, no amount of determination could have made a difference.
You're right. I shouldn't have worded it the way I did. I missed that point while trying to underscore that Guts doesn't have super powers because of the Interstice, which seems to be a common misconception. His will, strength and determination made him exceptional long before he was branded. Just look at how he handled Wyald. However, living in the Interstice allows him to act around events those in the corporeal world cannot.

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The plans of the Idea of Evil. Causality is just a principle of the world, like gravity. The Idea of Evil is the will that manipulates it to achieve its own ends.
The plans of the IoE are executed by the God Hand—that's all I meant. And there's certainly an end in mind to causality, which is why I worded it that way.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Tenfarther

Re: Guts' impossible task
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2012, 09:27:38 PM »
You seem to forget that it has already been established in volume 26 that the Dragon Slayer had become more than a simple chunk of metal. After having slain so many evil creatures, it has gained the ability to "hurt" the God Hand. That is how Guts could dispel Slan's apparition in the Qliphoth.

 :ganishka:  I'm surprised nobody has said this sooner.  You can add too when Guts hurts Ganishka's apostle form after every attack, other than griffith/femto's power himself, proved fruitless.  They are pretty specific that it is no ordinary sword.