Author Topic: School shooting in Connecticut  (Read 6425 times)

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Offline JoeZeon

Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2012, 05:53:48 PM »
Connecticut has some of the strictest gun control laws on the books and none of them stopped Lanza from committing the crime. He tried to buy weapons a few days before the shooting, but was rejected. It would've been one thing had he bought these guns and done the shooting, but the fact that he had to steal them makes it clear that no amount of gun control can stop insane people from doing insane things.

The biggest common denominator in mass shootings has been prescription drugs and anti-depressants. If you run down the list, almost all of them were on something.

Personally I'd prefer open carry to concealed.  Gives you the chance to see the weapon and get out of Dodge.

Nick Meli, who had a concealed carry, had the Oregon mall shooter in his sights and would've downed him had their not been people in the background. But the shooter did see Meil and shot himself shortly afterwards. http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html?fb_action_ids=532747386744578&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582

Criminals rely on people not fighting back for them to succeed, I'm not for teachers having a CCW in the classroom though.

In any case personally I feel the way the media frenzies over these killings is a bigger problem than the gun nuttery, as far as the effect on chances of future mass killings.  The real problem of gun nuttery isn't mass murder, it's the appalling rate of gun negligence and accidental shootings.  Evaluating risk, it's a plane crash vs road accident situation.

Lanza posted a picture of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold after they had shot themselves prior to his rampage. The media has made these people celebrities and guys like Lanza idolize them.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2012, 06:30:33 PM »
I would not be against reform that got rid of a lot of useless fees and instead started to treat guns more like vehicles.

Always seemed the most sensible option to me. Besides, honest folks have nothing to hide, right?

In any case personally I feel the way the media frenzies over these killings is a bigger problem than the gun nuttery, as far as the effect on chances of future mass killings.

Same way the mass media treats most issues nowadays: crassly.

Open carrying just lets would be killers know who to shoot at first. Or think twice, whatever.

Or make sure they target elementary schools.

the fact that he had to steal them makes it clear that no amount of gun control can stop insane people from doing insane things.

He took them from his mother who obviously hadn't taken the necessary precautions to avoid such a scenario. That's a pretty big hole in your argument. And there's certainly an amount of gun control that can stop such incidents from occurring as frequently as they do in the USA. Don't be deluded.

Nick Meli, who had a concealed carry, had the Oregon mall shooter in his sights and would've downed him had their not been people in the background. But the shooter did see Meil and shot himself shortly afterwards. http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html?fb_action_ids=532747386744578&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582

Criminals rely on people not fighting back for them to succeed, I'm not for teachers having a CCW in the classroom though.

Then what are you for? You see, let's imagine a way things could go down if everybody had a gun. Crazy guy goes in a mall, starts shooting people. Everybody's startled, panics. AverageJoe pulls his own gun, starts shooting at the madman. Madman ducks. Third guy also pulls a gun. Sees Joe shooting at people, so shoots at him. Fourth guy sees all these guys shooting at people, what does he do? And so on and on. It was like that before, once upon a time. Back in the Wild West. Is it something worth returning to? Is it ineluctable? Because that's what you seem to be advocating.

The more people will carry with them at all times the means to kill someone with the simple pressing of a trigger, the more bad things are going to happen. People aren't reliable. They get nervous, they panic, they're clumsy, they get drunk, or angry, and they're generally pretty stupid. It's quite simple really: the easier you make it for people to kill each other, the more it'll happen.

Offline MrWeatherby

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Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2012, 09:02:41 PM »
Quote
Criminals rely on people not fighting back for them to succeed

A former roommate not too long after the Dark Knight Rises shooting argued that if he were there, boy things would be different. He would have totally shot down that guy through all the tear gas, screaming and fleeing victims, and of course his tactical armor. Because what that shooting truly needed was another gun involved.

Basically,
Quote from: Aazealh
People aren't reliable. They get nervous, they panic, they're clumsy, they get drunk, or angry, and they're generally pretty stupid. It's quite simple really: the easier you make it for people to kill each other, the more it'll happen.
this.
You got a lot of guitars

but you don't play guitar.

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Offline JoeZeon

Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2012, 10:45:26 PM »
He took them from his mother who obviously hadn't taken the necessary precautions to avoid such a scenario. That's a pretty big hole in your argument. And there's certainly an amount of gun control that can stop such incidents from occurring as frequently as they do in the USA. Don't be deluded.

Most gun owners, myself included, keep their weapons under lock and key. So its a reasonable assumption that Lanza's mother had the rifle and pistols in a safe, or locker of some kind. As I said before the laws in Connecticut are very strict, most states do not make you go through that much red tape to buy a firearm. The gun control laws worked, they preventing him from buying a firearm. But it's clear that Lanza was far enough down the line, to steal these guns himself and murder his mother in doing it. That kind of crazy, will find a way to commit murder no matter what gun control laws you put in place.

Also you missed the biggest point in my argument. Look up the effects that anti-depressants and many other psychotropic drugs have on the human brain. They cause psychotic episodes and suicidal thoughts. Columbine, Virgina Tech, The Batman shootings etc. Everyone of these guys were on something. If you banned all assault rifle's and handguns, these people would still find a way to hurt or kill others.


Then what are you for? You see, let's imagine a way things could go down if everybody had a gun. Crazy guy goes in a mall, starts shooting people. Everybody's startled, panics. AverageJoe pulls his own gun, starts shooting at the madman. Madman ducks. Third guy also pulls a gun. Sees Joe shooting at people, so shoots at him. Fourth guy sees all these guys shooting at people, what does he do? And so on and on. It was like that before, once upon a time. Back in the Wild West. Is it something worth returning to? Is it ineluctable? Because that's what you seem to be advocating.

The more people will carry with them at all times the means to kill someone with the simple pressing of a trigger, the more bad things are going to happen. People aren't reliable. They get nervous, they panic, they're clumsy, they get drunk, or angry, and they're generally pretty stupid. It's quite simple really: the easier you make it for people to kill each other, the more it'll happen.

For starters there are 41 states with Right to Carry laws on the books and according to the Department of Justice; those states have a 30% lower homicide rate and a 46% lower robbery rate. Florida has issued almost 2 million CC's and has only revoked 168 because of gun related crimes. Most people who are conceal carry holders are law abiding citizens. The scenario you just described is the same scenario that anti-gun legislators argue time and time again. But the widespread usage and positive effects of conceal carry, are a testament to the effect an armed citizen has on criminals.

With regards to teachers having a conceal carry license within a school, that's something that I as a gun owner do not agree with. Just because I am pro-gun, doesn't mean I have to agree with all pro-gun arguments. 


Offline Aazealh

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Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2012, 11:22:13 PM »
Most gun owners, myself included, keep their weapons under lock and key.

Where's the data on that? Because that lady apparently did not. Doesn't matter how it happened, someone other than her had access to her weapons when they shouldn't have had. Lithrael made a very good point about gun negligence and accidental shootings that I completely agree with and is also included in what I think a reform should address.

Also you missed the biggest point in my argument. Look up the effects that anti-depressants and many other psychotropic drugs have on the human brain. They cause psychotic episodes and suicidal thoughts. Columbine, Virgina Tech, The Batman shootings etc. Everyone of these guys were on something. If you banned all assault rifle's and handguns, these people would still find a way to hurt or kill others.

This is a terribly flawed argument based on distorted information. So it's all the pills' fault? It also touches down on a different topic, which is the sad state of healthcare and drug prescription in the USA. Anyway, if you banned all guns, sure a crazy guy would still find ways to hurt people. But killing 30 people with a knife is significantly harder than it is with an AR15. Repeating myself: the easier you make it for people to kill each other, the more it'll happen.

The scenario you just described is the same scenario that anti-gun legislators argue time and time again. But the widespread usage and positive effects of conceal carry, are a testament to the effect an armed citizen has on criminals.

It's just a probable scenario that I thought up in a half-second. The death and injury by firearm rates in the USA, even in the states with lower rates, is still far higher than in many other countries who have stricter laws. And the "positive effects of CC" you mention are, as far as I can tell, completely unproven. Statistics are extremely easy to manipulate, and while I don't care enough to check the numbers, I'm also not going to take your word for it without a link to an official website showing the data.

Anyway, when it comes down to it, those shootings are a phenomenon that's more common in the USA than anywhere else. In spite of all the concealed carry you can muster. So, your proposal is to have even more people carry weapons? If so, I bet you it won't be very helpful. Just like it hasn't helped much so far. Maybe some guy/girl will manage to stop a maniac once because of it. Maybe. Once. But how many times will it not make a difference? How many times will the good guy who carries weapons to protect himself make a mistake and allow someone else to use his weapon for bad purposes? It all just leads to an escalation of violence.

Offline JoeZeon

Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2012, 07:58:21 AM »
This is a terribly flawed argument based on distorted information. So it's all the pills' fault? It also touches down on a different topic, which is the sad state of healthcare and drug prescription in the USA.

The Effects of Psychotropic Drugs and Their Link to School Shootings
http://www.cchrint.org/2012/07/20/the-aurora-colorado-tragedy-another-senseless-shooting-another-psychotropic-drug/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxJomeak4V4&feature=plcp
http://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/antidepressantsideeffects/
http://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/antipsychoticsideeffects/
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/25/9511.aspx
http://www.examiner.com/article/school-shootings-are-often-caused-by-psychiatric-drugs
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2000/may/22/drugs.uknews

The death and injury by firearm rates in the USA, even in the states with lower rates, is still far higher than in many other countries who have stricter laws. And the "positive effects of CC" you mention are, as far as I can tell, completely unproven. Statistics are extremely easy to manipulate, and while I don't care enough to check the numbers, I'm also not going to take your word for it without a link to an official website showing the data.

Conceal Carry and Gun Ownerships Effects on Crime
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/18/gun-ownership-up-crime-down/
http://www.academia.edu/1199011/The_Effectiveness_of_Firearm_Conceal_Carry_Laws_on_the_Incidence_and_Pattern_of_Violent_Crime
http://www.jrwhipple.com/guns/firearm_facts.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/02/21/disarming-the-myths-promoted-by-the-gun-control-lobby/
http://www.gunfacts.info/
http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/articles/2012/right-to-carry-2012.aspx
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo6686900.html


This is going to be my final salvo in this debate and while I disagree with your beliefs; I understand that you and I come from very different cultures that have very different views on guns. But the two will never impose on the other and both of us are free to live our lives as we see fit.  This is good, because both of us can go back to enjoying Berserk without hard feelings. :guts: 

Offline Aazealh

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Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2012, 08:03:03 AM »
I understand that you and I come from very different cultures that have very different views on guns.

That's bullshit. I like guns quite a bit, as I've said before. But I can see why giving guns to everybody is inviting trouble. I'll just tell you one last thing myself: the same day the Newtown killings happened, a man in China attacked a school with a knife. He assaulted 22 children. None died.

Offline Wyrm

Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2012, 11:58:46 AM »
Just to point out that as far as I know Canada has very lax gun control laws but a fraction of firearm killings as the US.
Correlation doesn't mean causality, of course, but one has to wonder if having a Public Health Service and a strong social safety net is conducive to a less violent society. I think it is.

On a slightly different note, when will people (and they come from every political quadrant) stop talking about "FREEEEEEDOM" (in caps as Mel Gibson on Braveheart ) everytime they can't get away with being assholes (to each other, to their employess, to their bosses, to their children, etc...) :???:

Online Walter

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Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2012, 01:03:18 PM »
Just to point out that as far as I know Canada has very lax gun control laws but a fraction of firearm killings as the US.
Correlation doesn't mean causality, of course, but one has to wonder if having a Public Health Service and a strong social safety net is conducive to a less violent society. I think it is.
Bowling for Columbine much?
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Offline Wyrm

Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2012, 04:27:36 PM »
Not sure what you mean Walter as I never seen that movie...

Online Walter

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Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2012, 05:40:33 PM »
Not sure what you mean Walter as I never seen that movie...
Well, what you said is pretty much the premise for the documentary, line for line, and it popularized that notion. That being the case, your comment struck me as, "I heard this on a movie once." But if you came to the same conclusions as Michael Moore independently, then bravo!
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Offline Wyrm

Re: School shooting in Connecticut
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2012, 10:44:26 AM »
Well, i think that is easily observable that countries that do provide for their citizens are in general much less violent than countries were a significant part of the population is in deep misery.

You don't need to see movies to know that. :)