Author Topic: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King  (Read 7868 times)

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Offline IronBerserk

Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« on: April 03, 2013, 01:40:13 AM »
Now that I got your attention through the title, let me explain my points before you start finding contradictions in order to destroy me :P lol!
PS: I apologize in advance if this theory has already been discussed. I'm new on the site.

Ever since the revelation in chapter 331 about the Flower Storm King (FSK) having an avatar, this piece of evidence is in my opinion the missing link that explains just who exactly the Skullknight (SK) is. I will go through the evidence piece by piece in order paint a picture of what exactly the story behind the famous SK could be like if this theory ends up being true.

1)   The first piece of evidence that caught my attention and pointed to SK being the FSK’s avatar was in volume 18 when Puck meets SK for the first time. After the usual awesome SK speech, Puck makes a very peculiar remark saying that, “Maybe I imagined it but that guy he kind of felt like an elf”. Why would Puck say that if it wasn’t a sort of hint towards anything? Or is it just a translation error done by Dark Horse Manga? Definitely something to consider.

2)   SK’s friendship with the Forest Witch was interesting and a bit questionable. How exactly are they connected to each other and how did they meet? In the last few pages of volume 27, Schierke states that Elfhelm is home to not only elves but to magicians as well. Is it possible that the Forest Witch met and was friends with the FSK during a time when both of them were on the island? Another thing worth noting is that after the group finish talking about magicians and magic users on the island, it shifts to a panel of SK just standing on top of a rock. Is this a foreshadowing of some kind? A lot of “what ifs” but still a possibility to consider.

3)   Another possible piece of evidence to consider is in the beginning of volume 28 when SK tells Guts and Schierke about the FSK. He tells them about how the FSK has the power to bring back Casca’s lost memories. SK not only tells them about this but he promises them that the FSK has this power. Why would he promise such a huge thing if he isn’t talking about himself? The only other possible explanation for this is that he must be very VERY close to the FSK. A possibility but still very flimsy in terms of promises that don’t involve his doing especially when he said the exact phrase, “You have my word”. Very decisive promise if you ask me.

4)   Another piece of information that must be discussed is the fact that SK used to be a man. This fact was stated during the conversation between SK and the Forest Witch (volume 24). Her precise words were, “I want to believe the heart of a man still remains within you”. This could be easily countered by the fact that we know that magicians live in Elfhelm. So is it possible that the FSK is actually a very powerful magician who once donned the famous Berserker armor? After all, it was SK in volume 28 that told Guts that the armor could consume his humanity if he is not able to tame the OD that dwells within the armor. The FSK once owning the armor and losing his humanity would also explain why Puck never knew about the FSK in the first place (end of volume 27). The FSK is probably disfigured in a way that he now has to hide himself from the public and uses his magic to control his SK avatar. Oh and before you point out the contradiction of, “but IronBerserk, you stated in your first point that SK could be an elf due to Pucks statement, so how could he be a disfigured magician?” Well I’m sure the FSK’s power is very fairy like in quality, he’s probably surrounded by helper fairies every day, and just maybe it was the fairies with their magic that saved him from being consumed completely by the Berserker armor?

5)   The final obvious piece of evidence is the fact that Slan in volume 26 calls the SK “majesty”. There are only really two kings we know about that she could possibly be referring to. That is either King Gaiseric or FSK. I’m going to go with FSK because King Gaiseric just seems like too much of an easy option. Yeah I know that there isn’t much proof on this one, but hey, I’m sticking with it. LOL!

I know there is a lot of “maybe’s” in this theory but hey give me a break here, I’m working only with what I have :P But there is one more contradiction that must be dealt with before I put this crazy theory to rest, and that is the contradiction of if SK is the FSK then who the heck is King Gaiseric and how does he fit in with all of this? Well my very awesome friends, let me tell you all a made up little story that should put all that to rest.

The History of the Flower Storm King: In the distant past during the period when people lived within “the reason of time” (SK: volume 28), there lived a King called Gaiseric who reunited all the warring kingdoms into one empire. This was an empire united by many factions including astral world beings such as elves (Schierke: volume 24, “Long ago it was quite natural to believe in the existence of elves. But with the spread of the doctrine of the Holy See, of one universal world view, those who can see them have dwindled. So many of the elves who can no longer interact with humans have faded away to some place in the astral world.”). King Gaiseric was a powerful and inspiring leader. Many followed him and befriended him including the FSK and the Forest Witch. However, something went horribly wrong and in order for King Gaiseric to survive his own demise, he sacrificed his entire kingdom (the most important thing in his life) in order to escape death. He became the first Godhand known as Void (notice the skull similarities between Void and Gaiseric) and thus the age within “the reason of time” had ended. FSK and the Forest Witch vowed vengeance upon him. FSK donned the Berserker armor which he and the Forest Witch created in order to defeat and fight on equal grounds with the person he once considered a friend. Unfortunately the armor fueled by his need for revenge consumed him and FSK was saved at the last second thanks to the help of his fairies and the Forest Witch. FSK was now unrecognizable due to the armors consuming powers and he was forced to not only hide his own body from view, but he had to use his magic to control an avatar known as the SK. He decided to keep the appearance of a Skullknight as a reminder of his old friend Gaiseric and became the man who Gaiseric should have been. However, this appearance was a huge draw back since he was now unable to use magic up close against his enemies. SK with his horse and sword would have to do the trick. He has ever since then been unable to defeat or make an impact against his enemies forces.

There you go, the possible (and most likely wrong) story of the FSK summarized in one big paragraph. The reason I chose to create a story like this specifically is because throughout Berserk, Guts and SK are continuously compared to each other. I had to create a story that mirrored that of Guts’ and his fight against his old friend Griffith. As you guys may have most likely noticed, Guts is slowly becoming the man that Griffith was supposed to be. He inspires people around him, he is a role model to all his friends, and he also knows in the importance of having friends and people you can trust. Something that Griffith failed in doing. I created a story similar to this one because FSK becomes the ruler that Gaiseric was supposed to be. He fights on the side of good and he is a caring king (or at least I hope he is, lol). That is why he wears and is the SK. It is a reminder and symbolism to what should have been.

So, do you guys agree with this theory of the Flower Storm King and Skull Knight being one, or is it all a bit too complicated? Or do you think this is all just insane and I need to shut up? LOL, I’m willing to take any criticism :P Please find contradictions. I’m sure I must have missed something?

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2013, 03:30:05 AM »
Whew, this one's a real stretch, I've gotta say. But I do always enjoy the subject, so thanks for getting me thinking about such things again.

Ever since the revelation in chapter 331 about the Flower Storm King (FSK) having an avatar
There wasn't a "revelation," it was just Schierke's theory, which astute readers know is probably erroneous given what we already know about the child. The bigger question is: Why is Miura giving us conflicting hints?

In regards to your points:

1) The truth behind Puck's infamous line about sensing something elfin about SK isn't yet known, but could easily be a number of more plausible things: His travel to and from Elfhelm; the armor he inhabits (The Berserk Armor was created by dwarves, afterall); and there's also the popular notion that the nature of SK's existence is somehow tied to elves. A resurrection/possession of sorts.

2) We already know the connection between SK and Flora: They were friends, like Guts and Schierke are now. That's straight from SK himself. And sure, it's possible and I'd say even likely that the Elf King and Flora were once acquainted. The number of magic users can't be that big of a social circle. But your point about the panel transition to SK in vol 27 is super weak, I'm sorry to say.

3) What makes SK so sure about the powers of the Elf King? Dunno, but he seems to know the guy pretty well. There are of course a number of possibilities, but I find it unlikely that the answer is that he's secretly referring to himself, and thus his powers. No other counter evidence exists to support such a notion. Anyway, he could have seen the king do a similar feat before, or again it could have something to do with the nature of SK's existence. Many other options are on the table.

4) You really lost me here. We know SK was once a man. Magic users are also people, sure. But how do you go from that to talking about the Elf King donning Berserk's Armor? A powerful magic user that also just happens to be handy with a sword (as we saw in the panel depicting the former user)? A hybrid class?! Anyway, the wording of the Elf King is always that he was a great, powerful Elf King, King of the Elves. It's not impossible that he was once a human, but I'd call it unlikely, given the specifics of his dominion.

5) Just admit the truth, man  :badbone: I've gotta say though... all this talk, and not one reference to the King of Flower Storm's name, and SK's emblem involving a flower? -----<<@. That one's for free.

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I know there is a lot of “maybe’s” in this theory but hey give me a break here, I’m working only with what I have :P
Well, you're going a little further than that, I'd say. You're stretching the meaning of certain scenes to mold things to your version of things.

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But there is one more contradiction that must be dealt with before I put this crazy theory to rest, and that is the contradiction of if SK is the FSK then who the heck is King Gaiseric and how does he fit in with all of this?
There's already a pretty simple, if rough narrative to follow: Emperor Gaiseric's capital was destroyed by powers unknown (vol 10), seeks revenge, ends up on similar path as Guts (vol 26-27), ends up dead due to Berserk's Armor (vol 27), somehow comes back as the Skull Knight ("your majesty", in Vol 26, and many others), and now has a connection to the elves (vol 18, et al). *Shrug* Makes sense to me.

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(notice the skull similarities between Void and Gaiseric)
What?

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and thus the age within “the reason of time” had ended.
That's not how the term is used in the series. Flora talks about extending her life beyond its natural means, something forbidden.

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FSK donned the Berserker armor which he and the Forest Witch created
It was created by dwarves.

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As you guys may have most likely noticed, Guts is slowly becoming the man that Griffith was supposed to be. He inspires people around him, he is a role model to all his friends, and he also knows in the importance of having friends and people you can trust. Something that Griffith failed in doing.
I see what you're attempting to say here, but I think it's erroneous to use the term "supposed to be" in this context. Griffith was who he was: A great leader, but one that couldn't maintain a true friendship while also steadfastly pursuing his impossible dream. Guts' situation is quite different. Though in terms of how they treat their friends, sure, Guts is obviously the better man.

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So, do you guys agree with this theory of the Flower Storm King and Skull Knight being one
Nope.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2013, 04:30:12 AM »
Thanks for the reply Walter and thanks also for pointing out my error on the Berserker armor actually being made by dwarves. I knew there was something flimsy about my line, I just couldn't put my finger on it. And thanks also for the flower on SK's shield. An obvious little sign I should have pointed out :)

As for your thoughts on me stretching the truth a bit, well yes of course I did. I'm trying to tell the story of the Skull Knight with the little information we have. I try my best for it to make sense. I never liked the idea of King Gaiseric being the Skull Knight because:

1) It's too obvious and simple. Miura would have something much more interesting planned for the reveal. Sorry but your explanation of King Gaiseric being Skull Knight is lame :P No offense intended of course.
2) I believe Flora would not be good friends with SK if he was King Gaiseric who sacrificed an entire nation. Its a possibility but a very unlikely. I mean she still calls him my good friend :P Also, Skull Knight is not an apostle, that much is certain because Guts' brand never bleeds when around him. You also say that King Gaiseric dies in the Berserker armor and somehow comes back as the Skull Knight? How? Why? If an apostle dies, doesn't he get sucked into hell for all eternity in the vortex?

As for some other fun rebuttals to your points:
1) "The reason of time" is a term used by the SK to describe a moment in history. In the beginning of volume 28: "Indeed, that armor is something I once wore. In the distant past when we lived within the reason of time". Now what exactly does that mean, I don't know? But if I were to guess it would be a time when the Godhand did not exist, or a moment in time a bit after the first Godhand was born, or maybe like you said a long time ago when he was still human. Either way my theory still fits, you just need to change a few little details.
2) About your complaint about number 4, that was a bit my fault and I should have been more specific. I went from him being possibly human to him wearing the Berserker armor because the last person that wore the armor was definitely human shaped. It was the only way that it would fit my theory of SK being FSK. When you see the armor in volume 26, it has the shape of a man with a skull like helmet, implying that SK was the last person that wore it. FSK being an elf while at the same time being SK would make no sense because the man shaped armor contradicts that. So I simply concluded that the FSK is a magician that lives in Elfhelm.

All your other points about my theory is just you saying the same info that we already know from the books. But that was not my goal. My goal was to present a very good theory and story that fills in the gaps of information that could lead to the Skull Knights reveal while at the same time respecting the information we already have.

Also, if "Schierke's theory" on the avatar of the FSK ends up being false, I will curse Miura for putting misleading and pointless information. That's just terrible story telling!

Thanks a lot for your input. It was appreciated :)

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2013, 11:02:05 AM »
1) It's too obvious and simple. Miura would have something much more interesting planned for the reveal. Sorry but your explanation of King Gaiseric being Skull Knight is lame :P No offense intended of course.
I'll keep this in mind for the big reveal, then. Anyway, we don't have the detail of how it went down 1,000 years ago, and the specifics of how he truly became the Skull Knight. It's going to be pretty awesome, and it'd be a shame if you couldn't enjoy it because you're hung up on this speculation of yours.

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2) I believe Flora would not be good friends with SK if he was King Gaiseric who sacrificed an entire nation.
That's your theory though, and there's not anything to back it up.

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Also, Skull Knight is not an apostle, that much is certain because Guts' brand never bleeds when around him. You also say that King Gaiseric dies in the Berserker armor and somehow comes back as the Skull Knight? How? Why? If an apostle dies, doesn't he get sucked into hell for all eternity in the vortex?
What? No, he's not an apostle. So why would he get sucked into the vortex upon death? Your first sentence doesn't agree with your third.

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1) "The reason of time" is a term used by the SK to describe a moment in history. In the beginning of volume 28: "Indeed, that armor is something I once wore. In the distant past when we lived within the reason of time". Now what exactly does that mean, I don't know?
He's referring to when he was a human, a non-supernatural entity still subject to the laws of time. But, as the Skull Knight, he was able to live for 1,000 years. Flora's pretty old too, ya know.

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FSK being an elf while at the same time being SK would make no sense
Yeah, I agree  :ganishka:

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All your other points about my theory is just you saying the same info that we already know from the books. But that was not my goal. My goal was to present a very good theory and story that fills in the gaps of information that could lead to the Skull Knights reveal while at the same time respecting the information we already have.
What about that stuff regarding Void and SK being the same being? THat seems like a pretty big leap that you don't quite explain other than their "skulls looking similar."

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Also, if "Schierke's theory" on the avatar of the FSK ends up being false, I will curse Miura for putting misleading and pointless information. That's just terrible story telling!
There could be more than meets the eye here. We don't have all the facts.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2013, 05:31:05 PM »
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What? No, he's not an apostle. So why would he get sucked into the vortex upon death? Your first sentence doesn't agree with your third.
Sorry my mistake, I thought you implied in your little story before that King Gaiseric sacrificed his kingdom...which by the way is what I believe happened. It's the only plausible explanation we can give. Remember in the tower where Griffith was locked up how all the skulls at the bottom had the brand of sacrifice? Implying that the old kingdom was sacrificed (the princess gave us a huge history lesson that talked about the old kingdom owned by King Gaiseric). King Gaiseric sacrificed what was most important to him which was him kingdom (makes sense if you think about it, who other than a king would logically care about such things?), and he became the Godhand known as Void...or at least I think he did. I doubt he just became a simple apostle :P If Skull Knight is King Gaiseric, then he would be a Godhand or apostle (which he is not), and Flora would probably not be good friends with him because he killed an entire nation. There you go, that's how I backed up my argument :)

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What about that stuff regarding Void and SK being the same being? THat seems like a pretty big leap that you don't quite explain other than their "skulls looking similar."
Wait I said that? No I meant Void and Gaiseric being the same being. Not Void and SK. Read correctly dude :P And I just backed up why I think that to be so. So I don't need to explain myself again.

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I'll keep this in mind for the big reveal, then. Anyway, we don't have the detail of how it went down 1,000 years ago, and the specifics of how he truly became the Skull Knight. It's going to be pretty awesome, and it'd be a shame if you couldn't enjoy it because you're hung up on this speculation of yours.
Hope you didn't take that wrong  :sad: But you got to admit that my crazy theory is much more awesome and poetic than the simple one you gave me. I put a lot of thought into it. Give me some credit :P LMAO

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2013, 05:47:53 PM »
Sorry my mistake, I thought you implied in your little story before that King Gaiseric sacrificed his kingdom...which by the way is what I believe happened. It's the only plausible explanation we can give.
No, it's not. How about Void and Gaiseric are two different people? That seems much more straightforward and supported by the story to me. Void has the air of a zealous magician, not a conqueror; where Gaiseric is a warrior like the Skull Knight. I'm sorry if that's "too easy" for you, but it's more grounded than your convoluted explanation, which involves a cosplaying elf king.

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Remember in the tower where Griffith was locked up how all the skulls at the bottom had the brand of sacrifice? Implying that the old kingdom was sacrificed (the princess gave us a huge history lesson that talked about the old kingdom owned by King Gaiseric).
No, it must have slipped my mind.   :ganishka: ...  :femto:

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King Gaiseric sacrificed what was most important to him which was him kingdom (makes sense if you think about it, who other than a king would logically care about such things?),
It could have been a zealot like the wiseman mentioned in volume 18 as having been tortured—someone who believed the people were suffering under Gaiseric's reign. The man who may have become Void.

I don't like to play this card very often, but you've sort of dragged it to this state. There's over a decade's worth of speculations on this site. You should peruse them one day. What we're discussing is pretty much the most popular subject. I've been over and over this topic at least twice a year since I was about 18 years old. I'm 31 now. So yeah, I'm pretty familiar with all of the ins and outs of it.

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Wait I said that? No I meant Void and Gaiseric being the same being. Not Void and SK. Read correctly dude :P
Sorry, I have this crazy thing where when I read Gaiseric, I also think of the Skull Knight.

Your exact words were "notice the skull similarities between Void and Gaiseric."  You haven't addressed what you meant here. Void has a big exposed brain. Gaiseric was known to wear a skull-shaped mask. What's similar there? If you were going to say that Void has part of his mouth exposed, that's far less similar than Gaiseric's helmet is to Skull Knight's. But you're saying those two aren't the same, so why bother?

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Give me some credit :P LMAO
Anybody can write a fanfic. But it's pretty gross to explicitly ask for credit for such a thing.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2013, 06:16:43 PM »
Interesting read thanks to both of you. I will just quickly throw my 2 cents in and say that like Walter, I suspect void may have been the tortured wiseman from the story we hear in volume 18.

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2013, 06:27:59 PM »
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Anybody can write a fanfic. But it's pretty gross to explicitly ask for credit for such a thing.
Kind of disappointed you think it's simple fanfic. i gave metaphorical and symbolical reasoning at to why SK could be the FSK. The similarities that would have when compared to Guts and when he wore the berserker armor. Much more thoughtout and deep than simple fanfic...but I tried I guess.

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Sorry, I have this crazy thing where when I read Gaiseric, I also think of the Skull Knight. Your exact words were "notice the skull similarities between Void and Gaiseric."  You haven't addressed what you meant here. Void has a big exposed brain. Gaiseric was known to wear a skull as a mask. What's similar?
Must I really start pulling out pictures to show you the similarities between the them? Which I'll admit I don't know how to do :P Same shaped nose and mouth where the skin is pulled back in order to see his skull. Just look at volume 10 and 13.

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It could have been a zealot like the wiseman mentioned in volume 18 as having been tortured—someone who believed the people were suffering under Gaiseric's reign. The man who may have become Void.

I don't like to play this card very often, but you've sort of dragged it to this state. There's about a decade's worth of speculations on this site. You should peruse them one day. What we're discussing is pretty much the most popular subject. I've been over and over this topic at least twice a year since I was about 18 years old. I'm 31 now. So yeah, I'm pretty familiar with all of the ins and outs of it.
Oh I'm sure you are quite knowledgeable. Heck, I didn't even remember anything about the wiseman mentioned in volume 18. They are all fair points. My goal here was to not exactly mention other theories (I'm new to the site, I can't possibly know or go through every theory), but to create a new one knowing the new information we have regarding the avatar. It also solves Pucks statement in volume 18 that even you couldn't find an answer for. As for Void being Gaiseric, it is still a possibility whether you like it or not. Gaiseric is just a king we know about that wore a Skull like helmet when he went into battle. We know nothing about his past, characteristics, personality, etc... So you saying Void is most likely not Gaiseric because he looks like a zealous magician is a bit pointless because we know nothing about Gaiseric and who he is.

"who other than a king would logically care about such things?" your right that there could be other explanations for such things, so I apologize for being a little over confident here.

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Interesting read thanks to both of you. I will just quickly throw my 2 cents in and say that like Walter, I suspect void may have been the tortured wiseman from the story we hear in volume 18.
huh, interesting. Where exactly in volume 18 is this wiseman thing spoken about? I seriously need to reread it again :P

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2013, 09:57:04 PM »
Where exactly in volume 18 is this wiseman thing spoken about? I seriously need to reread it again :P

It's where Mozgus is slamming his face into the ground as he prays in the top of the Tower of Conviction.  He tells Farnese and Serpico the story of the wiseman and it references the story told by Charlotte in the Tower of Rebirth.  A very interesting clue indeed, but who knows how biased the source (Mozgus) is.

BTW welcome to the forum.  Lots of interesting discussion to find if you use the search feature.

Offline Skeleton

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 04:06:47 AM »
1) It's too obvious and simple. Miura would have something much more interesting planned for the reveal. Sorry but your explanation of King Gaiseric being Skull Knight is lame :P No offense intended of course.

It’s simple and obvious because it’s true.  While I understand the desire to find twists and “gotcha moments” in any work, I think the problem isn’t with Berserk.  It’s the fact that we’re inundated in shitty storytelling.  So much of what we see and read contains overly complicated stories, twists, and gotcha moments because the authors are shitty storytellers and try to make up for his lack of skill.  Being constantly surrounded by it I think we tend to try to find the twist/”gotcha moment” in any work.  I know I’m guilty of that.  When the gang reached the Sea God’s island and saw the statue of him I subconsciously refused to believe the actual god would look like that.  After all, there’s no way the villagers could know what the god looked like.  I figured it was just a statue of what they thought it might look like.  As it turns out the actual god looked exactly like the statue.

The truth is that a truly great storyteller, like Miura, doesn’t need to throw in cheap twists and complications.  A great author can make a simple story great.  Let’s take Hemingway as an example.  Hemingway is one of the greatest American writers in history and arguably one of his greatest works is The Old Man and the Sea.  The novel is about an old man who goes fishing and then returns home.  There’s no twist or turns.  He doesn’t think he has a fish on the line only to reel it in and find out it’s a scuba diver.  He doesn’t return home only to find out he was the fish all along.  It’s a simple story.  But what makes it great is that there’s incredible depth behind the simplicity.

Berserk is just like that.  The Sea God doesn’t end up being whacky and different.  It looks exactly like the statue we’re shown because Miura doesn’t need to throw in twists and turns.  The greatness of Berserk is in the depth and simplicity of the story.  

Also, if "Schierke's theory" on the avatar of the FSK ends up being false, I will curse Miura for putting misleading and pointless information. That's just terrible story telling!

To be fair, wouldn’t the opposite be terrible storytelling?  Schierke has no way of knowing the true identity of the boy.  She’s just wondering out loud.  If she ends up being wrong then that’s perfectly natural because her character didn’t have enough information to know one way or the other.  However, if Miura used the character as a mouthpiece to reveal actual information to the audience that the character couldn’t possibly know then it’d be unnatural and, therefore, bad storytelling.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2013, 04:00:06 PM »
So, do you guys agree with this theory of the Flower Storm King and Skull Knight being one, or is it all a bit too complicated? Or do you think this is all just insane and I need to shut up? LOL, I’m willing to take any criticism :P

I think this thread is downright terrible. The idea that the Skull Knight could be the King of the Flower Storm in disguise is completely stupid (no offense intended of course).

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2013, 04:43:22 PM »

3)   Another possible piece of evidence to consider is in the beginning of volume 28 when SK tells Guts and Schierke about the FSK. He tells them about how the FSK has the power to bring back Casca’s lost memories. SK not only tells them about this but he promises them that the FSK has this power. Why would he promise such a huge thing if he isn’t talking about himself? The only other possible explanation for this is that he must be very VERY close to the FSK. A possibility but still very flimsy in terms of promises that don’t involve his doing especially when he said the exact phrase, “You have my word”. Very decisive promise if you ask me.


The biggest hole I find in this theory is why SK would wait to cure Casca at all?  If he is FSK, why would he send Guts & company across a dangerous sea journey when he's right there to begin with.  Is he a prankster?  It's not as if he's having them fulfill some quest before he gives them a reward.  He just says 'Hey I know a guy who might be able to help her.  He's over there.' 

Just imagine Guts reaction if he found out that SK had the power to heal Casca the entire time.  It does not make sense.

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2013, 06:42:27 PM »
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I think this thread is downright terrible. The idea that the Skull Knight could be the King of the Flower Storm in disguise is completely stupid (no offense intended of course).
HAHA, it's ok, like I said I'll take any criticism. I think what really bugged me was my first clue which was the puck thinking that SK felt like an elf. It still bugs the hell out of me. Why say that...why would Miura write that? Then we find out the FSK has an avatar, and it just seems to fit. I only tried to make a story about why or how it can fit.

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To be fair, wouldn’t the opposite be terrible storytelling?  Schierke has no way of knowing the true identity of the boy.  She’s just wondering out loud.  If she ends up being wrong then that’s perfectly natural because her character didn’t have enough information to know one way or the other.  However, if Miura used the character as a mouthpiece to reveal actual information to the audience that the character couldn’t possibly know then it’d be unnatural and, therefore, bad storytelling.
But I wasn't talking about the child (which I believe to be Griffith) I was talking about the simple fact that we now know that FSK has an avatar or could have an avatar. I think that piece of information is crucial. Yes, Schierke just guessed the child might be the avatar. But like you said, that was just a guess on her part. Miura mentioning the idea of an avatar and then not using it...well then that's bad story telling.

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The biggest hole I find in this theory is why SK would wait to cure Casca at all?  If he is FSK, why would he send Guts & company across a dangerous sea journey when he's right there to begin with.  Is he a prankster?  It's not as if he's having them fulfill some quest before he gives them a reward.  He just says 'Hey I know a guy who might be able to help her.  He's over there.'

Just imagine Guts reaction if he found out that SK had the power to heal Casca the entire time.  It does not make sense.
It does make sense because SK is only an avatar. SK does not have the power because he is only a shell. The FSK can only use his real power in person...makes sense to me. SK swallowing a bunch of behilits is more reason to believe he is just a shell. We have never really seen SK use magic. Only a sword and shield.

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It’s simple and obvious because it’s true.  While I understand the desire to find twists and “gotcha moments” in any work, I think the problem isn’t with Berserk.  It’s the fact that we’re inundated in shitty storytelling.  So much of what we see and read contains overly complicated stories, twists, and gotcha moments because the authors are shitty storytellers and try to make up for his lack of skill.  Being constantly surrounded by it I think we tend to try to find the twist/”gotcha moment” in any work.  I know I’m guilty of that.  When the gang reached the Sea God’s island and saw the statue of him I subconsciously refused to believe the actual god would look like that.  After all, there’s no way the villagers could know what the god looked like.  I figured it was just a statue of what they thought it might look like.  As it turns out the actual god looked exactly like the statue.

The truth is that a truly great storyteller, like Miura, doesn’t need to throw in cheap twists and complications.  A great author can make a simple story great.  Let’s take Hemingway as an example.  Hemingway is one of the greatest American writers in history and arguably one of his greatest works is The Old Man and the Sea.  The novel is about an old man who goes fishing and then returns home.  There’s no twist or turns.  He doesn’t think he has a fish on the line only to reel it in and find out it’s a scuba diver.  He doesn’t return home only to find out he was the fish all along.  It’s a simple story.  But what makes it great is that there’s incredible depth behind the simplicity.

Berserk is just like that.  The Sea God doesn’t end up being whacky and different.  It looks exactly like the statue we’re shown because Miura doesn’t need to throw in twists and turns.  The greatness of Berserk is in the depth and simplicity of the story.
Miura likes to put not just twists but foreshadowing. The conviction arc, Miura put little leads that hinted to the fact that Griffith would comeback and resurrect. However, when it happened, I was shocked as anyone else because I didn't see it coming. Yeah there were little hints here and there, but nothing substantial so prove that it would happen or how it would happen. If that isn't a twist, then I don't know what is? The shocking moment of the eclipse could be considered a twist. We knew Griffith was going betray Guts, but we never expected it to be that bad. How about when emperor Ganishka became the bringer of the apocalypse and Griffith getting attacked by SK which was the result that lead to Ganishka's destruction. The rising of the Falconia capital. These are all twists with meaning and substance behind them. Even the imagery represents themes at times. I could keep going, but I won't :P

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2013, 07:39:03 PM »
I think you do make another interesting point here about the important takeaway being that FSK having an avatar period. When I first read that monologue of Schierke's I must have completely disregarded that since I refuse to believe that the moonlight child could be it.

I won't say that your argument is certainly now plausible, but I do think it sounds a lot more like genius story telling of the Miura we know and love to circle back at some point to have the notion of the FSK's avatar be a real and significant thing.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2013, 08:24:18 PM »
I think what really bugged me was my first clue which was the puck thinking that SK felt like an elf. It still bugs the hell out of me. Why say that...why would Miura write that?

Walter already answered that for you. It's simply a hint that the Skull Knight is related to elves. In what way? We don't know. But the armor he...inhabits is most likely from them, and/or see what Walter told you.

Then we find out the FSK has an avatar, and it just seems to fit.

No, we didn't "find out" anything. Schierke suspects that the Moonlight Boy might be an envoy from Elfhelm... When Serpico is skeptical, saying that it'd mean people in Elfhelm would already know they are coming, she responds that there are many beings there who have great and mysterious powers. Then she mentions that she thinks he could be an avatar of the King of the Flower Storm himself. But that's not a fact. It's a guess and it's not based on much except the fact the boy is exceptionally powerful. Note that it's not related to the Skull Knight at all.

I only tried to make a story about why or how it can fit.

That's why it's just fan fiction. You came up with a little story. It's cool, but that doesn't make it plausible.

But I wasn't talking about the child (which I believe to be Griffith) I was talking about the simple fact that we now know that FSK has an avatar or could have an avatar.

I'll repeat: Schierke just came up with that possibility to explain the boy's powers. At no point is it ever related to the Skull Knight, who Schierke has met before without for one second thinking they could be one and the same.

Yes, Schierke just guessed the child might be the avatar.

An avatar. A manifestation. An embodiment. You're not thinking of this correctly. It's not like it's common knowledge the Elf King specifically has this mysterious avatar under the guise of which he roams the world, and that it could be anyone. It's just that Schierke can't explain the Moonlight Boy's enormous power and mysterious interventions other than by relating him to other powerful and benevolent beings she knows of.

But like you said, that was just a guess on her part. Miura mentioning the idea of an avatar and then not using it...well then that's bad story telling.

Seriously man, stop talking about good or bad storytelling because you're clearly out of your depth here. Miura is a masterful storyteller. Because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's bad.

And you're taking the meaning of the word "avatar" out of proportion. It's a relatively common word and concept in Asia, not some super special thing on which he put an emphasis. And we've seen Schierke herself do things somewhat similar to what is suggested here, for example possessing a bird to reconnoiter an area. Flora herself also appeared as a spirit after her death, stopping Grunbeld in his tracks. Ganishka projected his astral self into clouds, etc. And if the Moonlight Boy is indeed a manifestation of Guts & Casca's son, that same term might still be appropriate to describe the phenomenon.

Lastly, Miura often introduces elements in the story long before having them take up a central place. A recent example that comes to mind is the concept of Mana that he introduced us to through Isma and that has yet to be used in a relevant manner. Obviously, learning Isma's true name was never that big of a deal. But learning that such things exist in Berserk's world, that is a big deal. And it'll be important soon enough. The same thing could apply here, although the concept of projecting oneself elsewhere is, again, not all that new.

It does make sense because SK is only an avatar. SK does not have the power because he is only a shell.

This is ridiculous. We've seen the Skull Knight perform all sort of incredible deeds throughout the series, including fighting the God Hand head-on. But he's just a shell, without true power? That makes no sense at all. And really, how can you ever reconcile the fact the king of ELVES would be (have been) human? It's a direct contradiction, and a huge one at that. One of MANY in your crazy, puzzling theory.

SK swallowing a bunch of behilits is more reason to believe he is just a shell. We have never really seen SK use magic. Only a sword and shield.

You can't be serious. So because a character has never shown any hint of being the character you think he is, and because he does things that clearly show that he isn't the character you think he is, he probably is the character you think he is! It's embarrassing.

Miura likes to put not just twists but foreshadowing. The conviction arc, Miura put little leads that hinted to the fact that Griffith would comeback and resurrect.

And there has been foreshadowing about the Skull Knight being Gaiseric for a long time now. Foreshadowing so strong that no one doubts it anymore. Foreshadowing that started with the very first mention of Gaiseric.

By the way, Griffith didn't "resurrect". Femto was incarnated into a body of flesh. And no, it's not the same thing.

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2013, 09:02:18 PM »
@Aazealh
Why are you so angry with me? You keep saying I'm ridiculous and everything I say is ridiculous, but really in the end you are just as blind as I am in terms of information. I'm only trying to bring up a new possibility. I could respect Jaze1618, apostlebob and Walter. At least they bring up their arguments in a respectful manner. Instead of crapping all over me, why don't you just give me new information I could have missed like the one with the tortured wiseman. That was great and it made me think. Is this how you treat every new comer to the forum?

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2013, 03:23:23 AM »
@Aazealh
Why are you so angry with me? You keep saying I'm ridiculous and everything I say is ridiculous, but really in the end you are just as blind as I am in terms of information. I'm only trying to bring up a new possibility. I could respect Jaze1618, apostlebob and Walter. At least they bring up their arguments in a respectful manner. Instead of crapping all over me, why don't you just give me new information I could have missed like the one with the tortured wiseman. That was great and it made me think. Is this how you treat every new comer to the forum?

I wouldn't take it too personally.  You're bringing up topics that have been discussed to death in other threads.  Often times the mods have taken a lot of time to discuss the details of these theories at length and debunking bogus ones so as not to confuse new members as to what's actually happening in the story.  Imagine laying out the same explanation and debunking the same misconception for the last decade.  It might get a little tiring when new members don't use the search feature to see if a topics already been discussed, especially when the general tone is  'I can't believe you guys forgot about this' or 'I can't believe you didn't consider this.'  It's kind of off putting.

Don't get me wrong.  New speculation based on solid precedent in the story is welcome at the forum.  So is adding on to old discussions if there's something new to contribute.  As wild as some of your posts are, I do enjoy seeing some new discussion here.  And it's cool that you're passionate about the story.  But if you read the previous posts on the site, you'll see that you're not being singled out.  The mods always  discuss subjects with members in depth and enjoy good back and forth.  But they're not afraid to call you on bullshit either or get impatient if you insist on talking in circles.  There's no need to make this a personal argument.

I'm just speaking from the experience of seeing these thing spiral out of control.   

 

Offline Skeleton

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2013, 09:36:13 AM »
Miura likes to put not just twists but foreshadowing. The conviction arc, Miura put little leads that hinted to the fact that Griffith would comeback and resurrect. However, when it happened, I was shocked as anyone else because I didn't see it coming. Yeah there were little hints here and there, but nothing substantial so prove that it would happen or how it would happen. If that isn't a twist, then I don't know what is? The shocking moment of the eclipse could be considered a twist. We knew Griffith was going betray Guts, but we never expected it to be that bad. How about when emperor Ganishka became the bringer of the apocalypse and Griffith getting attacked by SK which was the result that lead to Ganishka's destruction. The rising of the Falconia capital. These are all twists with meaning and substance behind them. Even the imagery represents themes at times. I could keep going, but I won't :P

Yeah, those aren't plot twists.  But that's beside the point.  I was saying that Miura simply doesn't need cheap tricks and a needlessly complicated story to keep the reader interested.  It stands on its own merits.  The truth is that throwing around all these red herrings (showing SK is Gaiseric when he’s not) and plot devices (SK is really a pretender to the skull-shaped helmet throne, SK was the king of Elfhelm all along, the call was coming from inside the house, the cook was an alien from Venus, etc) just complicates a story that is truly beautiful in its simplicity.

Although, if it does turn out to be true that the Skull Knight and the king of Elfhelm are one and the same, I'm afraid you can't take credit for figuring it out. Someone already beat you to the punch.  :carcus:

Offline Staralfur

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2013, 02:50:45 PM »
I think what really bugged me was my first clue which was the puck thinking that SK felt like an elf. It still bugs the hell out of me. Why say that...why would Miura write that?

It might be that SK feels like an elf because he was cured by the King of Elfhelm. Something along the line of the story of Pircaf: he was so heavily wounded by the berserker's armor that in order to save his life the King of the Flower Storm had to make him less human and more "elvish"?

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2013, 03:33:25 PM »
It might be that SK feels like an elf because he was cured by the King of Elfhelm. Something along the line of the story of Pircaf: he was so heavily wounded by the berserker's armor that in order to save his life the King of the Flower Storm had to make him less human and more "elvish"?

That speculation makes more sense to me.  It would explain how SK knew about him and his power, explains the elvish aura, and would close the gap between the story of his  "death" from the berserker armor and his current state as a centuries old walking shell of armor.  It's still baseless speculation, but at least it's simple and doesn't require a lot of assumptions and rationalization.  It'll be interesting to see if there's any connection between the two at all.

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2013, 03:38:52 PM »
I was saying that Miura simply doesn't need cheap tricks and a needlessly complicated story to keep the reader interested.  It stands on its own merits. ... The truth is that throwing around all these red herrings and plot devices just complicates a story that is truly beautiful in its simplicity.
I know you're replying in context with what's been presented by IronBerserk, but I've never thought of Berserk as a simple story.

It might be that SK feels like an elf because he was cured by the King of Elfhelm. Something along the line of the story of Pircaf: he was so heavily wounded by the berserker's armor that in order to save his life the King of the Flower Storm had to make him less human and more "elvish"?

Mentioned by me in the first reply of the thread:

...and there's also the popular notion that the nature of SK's existence is somehow tied to elves. A resurrection/possession of sorts.
But yes, it's a long-standing theory. Not taking credit, just saying it's been around.


Often times the mods have taken a lot of time to discuss the details of these theories at length and debunking bogus ones so as not to confuse new members as to what's actually happening in the story.
...
Imagine laying out the same explanation and debunking the same misconception for the last decade.
Aaz and I are pretty patient people. Personally, I do enjoy speculating up to a certain point. But, yeah it can be a little frustrating when someone new comes along saying I'VE FIGURED IT OUT GUYS, IT'S BEEN THE ELF KING ALL ALONG AND HERE'S WHY.

 I'm honestly glad that we can't decipher the biggest secrets of the series yet. It's a fun exercise to make an attempt, but futile to try and pinpoint exactly how it went down 1,000 years ago. Speculations should never be delivered with a tone of certainty, which is often the fatal flaw in these threads.  Miura's packaged things so as to incite curiosity, but hasn't revealed all the cards yet, and the true story of the Skull Knight is a secret that's been around for nearly 20 years. That's really a huge achievement. The story will be told in its proper time, and I'm happy to keep waiting for that right moment. Of course, I'll still always scour pages for clues :SK:

If all the pieces fit logically, speculations are often rallied behind (a good example is  Aaz's mind-bending speculation on the Moonlight Boy. It's not proven, but is continually supported with each new piece of evidence we get). But those that take logical leaps for the sake of solving everything aren't really supported here, particularly when delivered with such certainty.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2013, 05:41:07 PM »
Why are you so angry with me? You keep saying I'm ridiculous and everything I say is ridiculous, but really in the end you are just as blind as I am in terms of information. I'm only trying to bring up a new possibility. I could respect Jaze1618, apostlebob and Walter. At least they bring up their arguments in a respectful manner. Instead of crapping all over me, why don't you just give me new information I could have missed like the one with the tortured wiseman. That was great and it made me think. Is this how you treat every new comer to the forum?

I'm not angry at all. And actually I do believe that I'm not quite as "blind" as you are in this particular context. Anyway, I have given you new information, whether you realize it or not. But the thing is, while you say you respect the other members who've taken the time to humor you and respond seriously to your little theory here, it doesn't seem to me that you considered any of what they told you very seriously. Especially when you're calling what's pretty much certain to be the truth (Gaiseric = Skull Knight) "lame".

Had you considered the responses you received more carefully, I probably wouldn't have posted in this thread in the first place. But since you didn't, well I was a bit more straightforward. But still I explained these things to you, and when I told you that I found your reasoning to be ridiculous, it wasn't to make you feel bad, but because I truly did think so.

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2013, 05:58:06 PM »
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Although, if it does turn out to be true that the Skull Knight and the king of Elfhelm are one and the same, I'm afraid you can't take credit for figuring it out. Someone already beat you to the punch.
LOL, I take credit over nothing. It's all only speculation anyways :P And you guys have been arguing with each other for so long that I was sure someone else had thought of it. But hey, I put a little "PS" note above apologizing if you guys talked about it before. If we end up being right, I give you every gloating right  :guts: LMAO!

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It might be that SK feels like an elf because he was cured by the King of Elfhelm. Something along the line of the story of Pircaf: he was so heavily wounded by the berserker's armor that in order to save his life the King of the Flower Storm had to make him less human and more "elvish"?
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That speculation makes more sense to me.  It would explain how SK knew about him and his power, explains the elvish aura, and would close the gap between the story of his  "death" from the berserker armor and his current state as a centuries old walking shell of armor.  It's still baseless speculation, but at least it's simple and doesn't require a lot of assumptions and rationalization.  It'll be interesting to see if there's any connection between the two at all.
That's really good stuff. But I would still be a bit skeptic because Picaf was a fairytale meant to represent the struggle of Jill and....that elf like demon friend of hers (forgot her name). To use a fairytale as a plot point...Mr. Miura you cruel SOB :P LOL! Nah, just kidding, love the guy!  :guts:

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I know you're replying in context with what's been presented by IronBerserk, but I've never thought of Berserk as a simple story.
I'd have to agree there again. We were just talking about the different morals yesterday and how they are interconnected with each other, etc... Not to mention the fantasy world and their very complex ways of working. I always slap myself silly in volume 24 when Schierke goes through her long discussion of the realm of ideas, astral and physical world. Complex stuff, it actually reminds me a bit of Plato.

As for you saying my examples aren't plot twists. A plot twist is: a change in the direction or expected outcome of the plot. It's nothing complicated and it doesn't even have to be unexpected. For Miura to not put plot twists would make for a very long and boring story. Example: Watch Guts walk across the country and kill demons for 37 volumes. Now there is a story with no plot twist. Actually now that I think about it, there have been 2 major plot twists in Berserk. One after the eclipse and the second after the defeat of Ganishka. Two very different shifts in tone and plot. Oh and maybe we could add after Griffith's resurrection...maybe?

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I'm not angry at all. And actually I do believe that I'm not quite as "blind" as you are in this particular context. Anyway, I have given you new information, whether you realize it or not. But the thing is, while you say you respect the other members who've taken the time to humor you and respond seriously to your little theory here, it doesn't seem to me that you considered any of what they told you very seriously. Especially when you're calling what's pretty much certain to be the truth (Gaiseric = Skull Knight) "lame".
Had you considered the responses you received more carefully, I probably wouldn't have posted in this thread in the first place. But since you didn't, well I was a bit more straightforward. But still I explained these things to you, and when I told you that I found your reasoning to be ridiculous, it wasn't to make you feel bad, but because I truly did think so.
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I wouldn't take it too personally.  You're bringing up topics that have been discussed to death in other threads.  Often times the mods have taken a lot of time to discuss the details of these theories at length and debunking bogus ones so as not to confuse new members as to what's actually happening in the story.  Imagine laying out the same explanation and debunking the same misconception for the last decade.  It might get a little tiring when new members don't use the search feature to see if a topics already been discussed, especially when the general tone is  'I can't believe you guys forgot about this' or 'I can't believe you didn't consider this.'  It's kind of off putting.
Yeah, your right, I took it a bit too personal. Sorry about that Aazeahl. But I did never say for anything to be truth. Sorry again if it came out that way. And i did take appreciation in the other bits of info the other members gave me. Checked up quite a lot of stuff and little quotes I forgot existed. However, I do still believe this thread to be a possibility. Forget the little silly story I made up and forget the little back and forth we did. Just look at the first 3 or 4 points I made and they hold up quite well. You might completely disagree but its still a possibility.

Actually there was one complication I went through when rereading my points that I'm surprised no one brought up. If SK is the FSK, then why hasn't he told Guts yet? Why would he keep such thing a secret? Why not say, "hey Guts I'm the FSK, come meet me on Elfhelm and I'll heal your friend". I know there could be reasons but still puts a big hole in the theory...but now I'm just over killing myself :P lol

Offline Walter

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2013, 06:09:30 PM »
A plot twist is: a change in the direction or expected outcome of the plot.
...
there have been 2 major plot twists in Berserk. One after the eclipse
That wasn't unexpected at all. Did you forget? The series begins after the Eclipse, in a world where Griffith has already sacrificed his friends including Guts, the protagonist of the series.

We also knew about the change in the world that was coming, as early as volume 25. We just didn't know it would happen all at once, like it did with Ganishka's explosion.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2013, 06:30:29 PM »
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That wasn't unexpected at all. Did you forget? The series begins after the Eclipse, in a world where Griffith has already sacrificed his friends including Guts, the protagonist of the series.

We also knew about the change in the world that was coming, as early as volume 25. We just didn't know it would happen all at once, like it did with Ganishka's explosion.
The definition doesn't say, an unexpected change in direction. Just a change in direction. Whether you saw it coming or not is irrelevant. After the eclipse, we went from medieval to demon hunting. After the conviction arc, we got astral fusing with physical world and we also got introduced to magic. After the defeat of Ganishka, the entire world changed with the complete merge of the astral and physical.

This is just again speculation but I do believe Miura started the Fantasia arc with the Sea God in order to introduce the reader to this new world and how it works. Ancient gods reawakening, monsters roaming the land, etc... This is how the world functions now and he's trying to get us used to it. Oh and Guts killing a Sea God is always bad-ass! lol