Author Topic: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King  (Read 8170 times)

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Online Walter

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2013, 06:36:11 PM »
The definition doesn't say, an unexpected change in direction. Just a change in direction.
Your words: "a change in the direction or expected outcome of the plot." If the expected outcome was changed, that's unexpected.

It's beginning to get tiring having to examine the definition of words with you. What is this, the third time in the past two days?
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2013, 06:42:05 PM »
Quote
Your words: "a change in the direction or expected outcome of the plot." If the expected outcome was changed, that's unexpected.

It's beginning to get tiring having to examine the definition of words with you. What is this, the third time in the past two days?
but you forgot that there is an or :P A change in the direction. That's all I took. The definition implies both. It is getting tiring though. Sorry but I do believe I'm right here.

Online Walter

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2013, 06:43:07 PM »
but you forgot that there is an or :P A change in the direction. That's all I took. The definition implies both.
Seriously, you don't know what you're talking about. Is your first language English..?

You know what, don't bother. If you want to further debate words and definitions, let's do it via PM.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2013, 06:46:39 PM »
Just look at the first 3 or 4 points I made and they hold up quite well. You might completely disagree but its still a possibility.

They don't hold up. And going by your logic, everything is a possibility. Maybe the Skull Knight's a robot! He has a secret base on the moon! Yeah, no.

Actually there was one complication I went through when rereading my points that I'm surprised no one brought up. If SK is the FSK, then why hasn't he told Guts yet? Why would he keep such thing a secret? Why not say, "hey Guts I'm the FSK, come meet me on Elfhelm and I'll heal your friend". I know there could be reasons but still puts a big hole in the theory...but now I'm just over killing myself :P lol

Yes indeed, and there are many more. So, do you see now why I told you it just doesn't make sense?

but you forgot that there is an or :P A change in the direction. That's all I took. The definition implies both. It is getting tiring though. Sorry but I do believe I'm right here.

You definitely aren't right. In the context of storytelling, a twist is always "an unexpected event, revelation, or other development".

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2013, 06:55:28 PM »
Quote
You definitely aren't right. In the context of storytelling, a twist is always "an unexpected event, revelation, or other development".
Quote
Seriously, you don't know what you're talking about. Is your first language English..?

You know what, don't bother. If you want to further debate words and definitions, let's do it via PM.
Fine, I give up. You guys are right. I give up on every debate we've ever had. Right here right now. I go any further I think my heads gonna explode.

Offline Skeleton

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2013, 06:07:18 AM »
I know you're replying in context with what's been presented by IronBerserk, but I've never thought of Berserk as a simple story.

Simple might not have been the best choice (especially since it tends to have a negative connotation which I didn’t intend).  “Concise” might’ve been more appropriate?  The world of Berserk is definitely complex.  And both it and the characters have an incredible amount of depth.  And the amount of detail that Miura puts into the story, its characters, and its world blows me away every time I think about it.*  What I meant by simple is that he manages to do all of that while still keeping the story compact and without unnecessary excess.  Take the Sea God encounter as an example.  A lesser author could’ve just passed off the encounter as a “shit happens at sea” sidetrack and left it at that.  The encounter would’ve been completely unnecessary from the plot’s point of view.  But because Miura is such a master of his craft the encounter (besides being entertaining and interesting) lead to a major revelation (the Moonlight Boy officially being connected to Femto) and placed details for future events (mana, potentially how a powerful od affects the effectiveness of magic?).  To make a short story long, to me one of the many reasons why Miura is a master of his craft is because he’s so concise, trimming the fat without sacrificing quality so that every little inclusion ultimately adds quality to the whole. 

To give an example of the opposite of concise, I offer the previous paragraph.  :serpico:

As for you saying my examples aren't plot twists. A plot twist is: a change in the direction or expected outcome of the plot.

Wiktionary’s definition isn't correct unless they're saying the terms "direction" and "expected outcome" are the same thing.  ("You can call that a car or an automobile."  Car and automobile being the same thing.)  If that’s the case then it’s badly written.  Here’s an actual definition:

twist  16. (in a novel, play, etc) an unexpected event, revelation, or other development

For Miura to not put plot twists would make for a very long and boring story. Example: Watch Guts walk across the country and kill demons for 37 volumes. Now there is a story with no plot twist.

The story of Berserk isn’t about Guts just killing apostles.  So if Guts just went around randomly killing apostles for 37 volumes there wouldn’t be a plot to twist in the first place.

After the eclipse, we went from medieval to demon hunting.

It’s not a plot twist because the plot of the story doesn’t begin with the Golden Age.  The arc doesn’t change the overall plot of the story (or else the beginning of the Golden Age would be a plot twist too).  The story of Berserk starts with Guts killing apostles with the ultimate goal of finding and killing Femto.**  The Golden Age is meant to show us what led to that point in his life, what’s motivating him, etc.  The Golden Age ending with Guts vowing to find and kill apostles and ultimately Femto doesn’t change the plot because that was the plot to begin with.


Let me give you an example.  You’re reading a story about an Indian who runs around killing white settlers.  Half way through the book there’s a flashback.  It’s revealed that the Indian was once a peaceful man who liked to hunt and fish until the U.S. cavalry came and slaughtered his tribe while he was away hunting a bison or something, leaving him as the lone survivor.  Now, was the U.S. cavalry coming and slaughtering his people a plot twist because it turned him from a peaceful man into a bloodthirsty killer?  No.  It was just a flashback explaining why the Indian is running around killing people.  That’s how the Golden Age arc is for Berserk.**

After the conviction arc, we got astral fusing with physical world and we also got introduced to magic. After the defeat of Ganishka, the entire world changed with the complete merge of the astral and physical.

How do those events change the direction of the plot? Those aren’t plot twists.  That’s the story progressing naturally.  Keep in mind that plots can progress without the use of twists.  The story doesn’t have to be static, spinning its wheels in mud, unless there’s a twist to move it forward.

Fine, I give up. You guys are right. I give up on every debate we've ever had. Right here right now. I go any further I think my heads gonna explode.

I think this is the real problem.  You’re having a debate.  And we’re having a discussion.  You want to “win”/be right and us be wrong or else you’ll “lose.”  Whereas we’re just trying to help you understand the story for your own benefit and the benefit of anyone who might read this and had come to the same faulty conclusions.  We’re not saying you’re wrong about the Skull Knight’s true identity because we want to “win” and want you to “lose.”  We’re saying you’re most likely wrong about the Skull Knight’s true identity because the facts presented within the story suggest otherwise.  You seem to be a pretty bright person.  I hope you post more.  But if you do just keep in mind that we're all here to discuss Berserk.  It's not about being the sharpest knife in the drawer.  It's about truly understanding, appreciating, and enjoying Berserk. :) 

*Every now and then I think of Episode 237 when Schierke is telling Guts about Flora talking to her about the ocean.  When Flora is handing Schierke the seashell there’s an open book in the background.  On one page there's drawn a specific type of sea creature and beneath it there's a merrow.  Roughly five years and five months after Episode 237 was released, that very same type of sea creature actually appears.  Roughly six years and eight months after Episode 237 was released, the merrows appear in person (well, technically their voices are heard, and their presence is felt).  Now I’m not saying Miura included those specific creatures in the book because he knew he’d be using them in half a decade although it’s certainly possible.  It just blows me away that Berserk is so “airtight” (that’s not the right word, but that’s the only word I know that can describe it) that even something as completely unconnected to the plot up until that point like merrows were already established in the story/world through that one little detail.  I love that.


**I know there’s a lot more to Berserk than that.  I’m just trying to keep this as simple as possible to demonstrate plots and plot twists without added confusion.

Online ApostleBob

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Re: Skull Knight = The Flower Storm King
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2013, 04:45:00 PM »
I think this is the real problem.  You’re having a debate.  And we’re having a discussion.  You want to “win”/be right and us be wrong or else you’ll “lose.”  Whereas we’re just trying to help you understand the story for your own benefit and the benefit of anyone who might read this and had come to the same faulty conclusions.  We’re not saying you’re wrong about the Skull Knight’s true identity because we want to “win” and want you to “lose.”  We’re saying you’re most likely wrong about the Skull Knight’s true identity because the facts presented within the story suggest otherwise.  You seem to be a pretty bright person.  I hope you post more.  But if you do just keep in mind that we're all here to discuss Berserk.  It's not about being the sharpest knife in the drawer.  It's about truly understanding, appreciating, and enjoying Berserk. :) 

Well said.  This is about being a community that discusses a series we all like.  And it's okay to be wrong sometimes if it gives a deeper appreciation for the series.