Farnese and Casca

Why do you think Farnese takes care of Casca so well?
There are many reasons.

1) Once Farnese tried to burn Casca. She takes her devotion to Casca as some kind of atonement.

2)As we all know, Farnese follows Guts like Young Casca did for Griffith. As Guts' love, Casca is the one both who is very important for Guts and who he wants to protect.
So I see it could be the way Farnese shows her loyalty to Guts. It's so pure action,not on purpose.

3) Farnese was very weak and shut-down minded. She never thinks herself something worthy.
But now she is realizing what she really is, importance of her existence which she could never found before, taking care of Casca.

4) Farnese was so selfish noble girl. But now she should be strong to protect Casca who is even weaker than her.
I see it's kinda like a mom gets so strong to protect her children. If she didn't become a mom, she coulnd't get strong that much.
This applies to every woman, I think.
In a word, helpless and weak Casca has made Farnese stronger and stronger.

Relating to this, Casca has changed Guts, too. We've seen Guts protecting his poor girl in recent chapters. It's so different from Guts's former self just weilding his sword much only to take revenge.
and I think present Guts is much better than before.
Flora said in vol. 24 when Guts said he wanted to place Casca within his sword.
" It'll save you from that Karma Fire"

So meaningful line, isn't it?

I am often annoyed at Casca's childish action but always think there are many reasons why Miura has kept her still insane. :)

What's also interesting if you take a look at the picture of Chapter 216, page 11 (or 13 if you count YA pages), where Farnese is holding Caska and looks at her sword in her hand and thinks to herself:

"kono watashi ga..... dareka o mamoru tameni ken o furutteiru...."

Which means something like this: (excuse my bad translation)
"This me..... I'm wielding a sword in order to protect someone..."

"...just like him.." I would add. I guess she's thinking here about how Guts always had to protect her like this and how it must have felt for him, and she also seems to be reflecting upon her newly found identity as someone who's actually really fighting for something, for someone. I find it a pretty meaningful and interesting picture in relation to her new self and the bond between her and Guts.

Mizar said:

"kono watashi ga..... dareka o mamoru tameni ken o furutteiru...."

Which means something like this: (excuse my bad translation)
"This me..... I'm wielding a sword in order to protect someone..."

"...just like him.." I would add. I guess she's thinking here about how Guts always had to protect her like this and how it must have felt for him, and she also seems to be reflecting upon her newly found identity as someone who's actually really fighting for something, for someone

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Well, why did you add "..just like him"? There is neither line nor implication like that.
Farnese is just surprised at her action to protect Casca.
"just like him" is just your thought, Mizar.

True, I didn't want to state that as a fact, though. But I disagree that there isn't any implication for that. She finds herself now in the same position as Guts was before. I find it quite plausible that she's reflecting upon that very fact.

EDIT: I just added it to extend Farnese's thoughts at that time, that's all. It's not a literal translation, I just took the liberty to extrapolate her thoughts a little. Is that wrong?

puella said:

Relating to this, Casca has changed Guts, too. We've seen Guts protecting his poor girl in recent chapters. It's so different from Guts's former self just weilding his sword much only to take revenge.
and I think present Guts is much better than before.

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For this i agree, if u compare Gutz in the 1st 3 vol and the present one in vol 24, u will find a significane change in him. For example, i m surprise that he actually teach Isidro how to fight, and also there a part in chapter 200 (or is it 199?) where he amusingly broke Isidro nose test tube and the glass that stuck Puck head. Amazing that this the same cold-blooded person is the first arc

i dont know puella

all of the reasons you present seem viable, and one of them may infact be the correct answer to your question

but for me, i see something else there
i think the reason she protects caska is because she herself is weak.
i dont know if its because she desires to become strong, or if its to show her loyalty.
but i think its a way for her to attach herself to something strong, without becoming strong herself, because she is too afraid to actually do what it takes to become strong

basically her position is one of false re-assurance for guts. shes there so guts thinks that someone is looking after caska and shell be alright, but lets face it, shes practically as weak as caska, and argueably gets her into more trouble than caska would alone

i feel that farneze is probably using this as a means to skim past her demons and fears by leeching off of the righteous strength of another so that she wont hate herself and resent her past when its all over.
of course this isnt what she tells herself, she feels that shes doing this to face those fears and 'see the light', but who are we kidding, she has yet to make an attempt to face those fears

Mizar said:

True, I didn't want to state that as a fact, though. But I disagree that there isn't any implication for that. She finds herself now in the same position as Guts was before. I find it quite plausible that she's reflecting upon that very fact.

EDIT: I just added it to extend Farnese's thoughts at that time, that's all. It's not a literal translation, I just took the liberty to extrapolate her thoughts a little. Is that wrong?

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OK. I said just your thought, not you are wrong. :)
But could I take some scene in 217 for example?
Farnese keeps saying to herself weilding her silver dagger.
rough translation:
"the one who knows and can do nothing.... the one who is even weaker than me... the eyes which know nothing...
it doesn't permit my helplessness.."

If Farnese relates her action with Guts's protection, don't you think there should be any kind of implication or comment?

**I love extrapolation.

Krebs, you don't think that Miura is attempting to portray Farnese's motives through her actions as heroic and selfless? The paneling seems obvious to me. That's just my interpretation of course.

puella said:

Farnese keeps saying to herself weilding her silver dagger.
rough translation:
"the one who knows and can do nothing.... the one who is even weaker than me... the eyes which know nothing...
it doesn't permit my helplessness.."

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I guess she's talking about Caska, and that she's the reason why she doesn't feel completely helpless anymore? Makes sense to me, but it doesn't contradict what I said, though. Of course her duty to protect someone even weaker than herself gives her for the first time in her life a purpose, an identity, and I agree it's one of the reasons why she takes care for Caska like this.

If Farnese relates her action with Guts's protection, don't you think there should be any kind of implication or comment?

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Implications (the name says it already) are often implicit, something you can't directly see or read, but something that you just feel. I felt that Farnese thought about her situation in relation to Guts' when she looked at her dagger and thought to herself. Why would she otherwise explicitly think about weilding/swinging her sword for someone? She could have just thought: "gosh... did I just do that?"

But I'm probably seeing too many things in these pictures, but that's what you get if you keep thinking about 20 pages for over four weeks. You start to get the weirdest ideas, I tell you. ;)

But back to the initial question why Farnese takes care of Caska so well. I think it's a mixture of the things you mentioned in your initial post, but with the exception of the first one:

1) Once Farnese tried to burn Casca. She takes her devotion to Casca as some kind of atonement.

She never showed any remorse for what she has done nor did she ever think back about it. Or in your words: there is simply no kind of implication for this. But seriously, I don't think atonement plays any kind of role in her mind when protecting Caska.
And don't forget that she's still a complete mental wreck. She clings to everything that might give her some hope of re-establishing her shattered self. Her taking care of Caska is a sign of clinging to that hope, there's nothing else she can do right now, really. She will do everything that Guts will tell her to do, not necessarily out of loyalty, but out of sheer desperation; she can't do anything else.

Mizar said:

She never showed any remorse for what she has done nor did she ever think back about it. Or in your words: there is simply no kind of implication for this. But seriously, I don't think atonement plays any kind of role in her mind when protecting Caska.

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In my words, there are so clear lines and scenes in the manga.

Read vol.23 again, please.
the scene which has Farnese and Casca in woods.
What do you see in there? can't still find her remorse and thinking back?

As for "atonement"
Considering the title of 217, mukui, could be translated into "retribution" or "atonement"
- something for what one did- atonement is good to describe Farnese' mind.

Confer these from 217.

Walter said:

Krebs, you don't think that Miura is attempting to portray Farnese's motives through her actions as heroic and selfless? The paneling seems obvious to me. That's just my interpretation of course.

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i dont know wally
im still thinking about the whole situation

but i still dont think that her actions are heroic and selfless, i feel that she might tell herself that what shes doing is heroic and selfless, but can you honestly say that they are?

she joined guts without knowing what she would be doing, what she would be fighting. guts stuck her in charge of protecting caska she accepted it without fight. and to me, her position is the one of least responsibility, keep caska safe. of course youre incharge of someone elses life, but how hard is it to get the fuck away from danger.

her actions arent heroic because she has not shown nearly enough courage, or done a good enough job to be considered to be.
and selfless?!? she had her own damn reasons for joining guts, she didnt care about his fight, she knew nothing about it past what happend at the tower of rebirth, she wanted to leech off of guts cause his path seemed more righteous than the vaticans

her original motives were only so that she could feel better about herself, and possibly fight for something more right. but since she joined she has done nothing of the sort, shes neglected caska, and like i said before, argueably got her into more trouble

to be heroic and selfless, you have to succeed at the job you set out to do. and to even strive near heroic and selfless, you have to at least make some sort of effort to fulfill those motives.

i have honestly seen nothing of the sort.

@Puella
You're right, I forgot about that part in Volume 23. I take back what I said about her not feeling any remorse. Next time I will check my things better before I say something stupid again.

But about that picture you show us, what does it say?
"This is the retribution, or....." <-- or what? or not? or something else?

Farnese is a human being like us all . She has her strenghts and her weaknesses: Up today it was the weaknesses that were more apparent ( but not always: When she gave the torch to Serpico when they were burning her mother she was strong and compasionate like few.I am not kidding)

puella said:

.

Relating to this, Casca has changed Guts, too. We've seen Guts protecting his poor girl in recent chapters. It's so different from Guts's former self just weilding his sword much only to take revenge.

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Yeah. BLEAH. I know that you are right and it is so but do you have to turn the knife in the wound ?

Mizar said:

But about that picture you show us, what does it say?
"This is the retribution, or....." <-- or what? or not? or something else?

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Yeah.
This is my translation of Farnese's important lines in 217.

page 6

....I'm feeliing faint
I just want to crouch down to hide myself but...

page 7

This girl's warmth which I feel on my back doesn't make me so.
The one who has been entrusted to me first who can do nothing....
The eyes which don't know anything won't permit my helplessness.

page 8

This is....retribution ...or...

roberto999 said:

but do you have to turn the knife in the wound ?

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???

What I really wanted to say is 'weak' Farnese desperately tries to protect 'weaker' one. She's not strong but tries to be stronger at least than before. She is scared by trolls so much and afraid of her weakness more than anything else.
I want to compare her protection and Guts'. Guts is much stronger than Casca. His protection is ,in a way, much easier than Farnese'.

and Mizar, this is not the reason why I don't agree with you about Farnese' feeling for protection. I just think she doesn't realte her protection with Guts'.

Right... Caska needs protecting? Remember what happened last time some one tried to rape her? Just leave her alone with the trolls and a sword for half an hour and things will take care of themselves.

Hey, in her "battle frenzy", Caska's personality might actualy come back.

puella said:

2)As we all know, Farnese follows Guts like Young Casca did for Griffith. As Guts' love, Casca is the one both who is very important for Guts and who he wants to protect.
So I see it could be the way Farnese shows her loyalty to Guts. It's so pure action,not on purpose.

I am often annoyed at Casca's childish action but always think there are many reasons why Miura has kept her still insane. :)

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Good, when she joined Gatts I think the reason was this same one, but now I think she is feeling if stronger and capable of protecting somebody more defenseless, like Caska it is important for Gatts, and women always feel very well, Farnese wants to show that is useful taking a risk your life for somebody and in that way to show that can repair the mistakes that it made in the past! but....can it be that she is wanting to impress gatts to win your love, it will be?

I also hope Miura knows is doing!

Nadiaska said:

...can it be that she is wanting to impress gatts to win your love, it will be?

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I don't think so. Like I said, it's her pure action, not on purpose.
I mean it's not that Farnese takes good care of Casca in order to win love by impressing Guts. But then again, her action is enough to impress Guts. Guts says to Farnese in 217 "I owe you much. Thank you".
It's so natural she impresses Guts and she is very happy at Guts' few words. But winning love? I doubt it.

But who knows? Miura always slaps our back of the head ;D

puella said:

Nadiaska said:

...can it be that she is wanting to impress gatts to win your love, it will be?

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I don't think so. Like I said, it's her pure action, not on purpose.
I mean it's not that Farnese takes good care of Casca in order to win love by impressing Guts. But then again, her action is enough to impress Guts. Guts says to Farnese in 217 "I owe you much. Thank you".
It's so natural she impresses Guts and she is very happy at Guts' few words. But winning love? I doubt it.

But who knows? Miura always slaps our back of the head ;D

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It is perhaps you are right, it would be a lot of selfishness of her part to act like this! only wanted to understand why many they think it will have some thing between her and Gatts, why don't I still believe in that! :-\

A thing is certain Miura it should be the 6th member of the Hand of God to be so sadistic ! ;D

I don't think that Farnese is attempting to impress Guts in that particular istance: She doesnt even know that he is about to arrive.What she is attempting to do is defend herself and Caska in a hopeless situation. "Desperation make heroes of us all" like wrote Roy Thomas in a Conan comic (for those of you interested: Conan was trottling a giant hound of Baskerville sized pitbull like dog in that particular istance with his bare hands ;D ). Now Farnese is not Conan, of course ;D but there are istances that reveal the best or the worse that everyone of us has really within himself or herself: There are guys that exteriorly would seem to be all rage that would have fled leaving Caska alone and others that you don't give you two cents like Farnese that would stand and fight. Farnese is of the later type.

P.s. for Puella in my previous post I was underlining my liking for the old "bad" Guts and my disliking for the new "good" one