Author Topic: Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?  (Read 9556 times)

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Offline Master Finn

Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?
« on: June 03, 2013, 05:25:30 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Guts say that he didn't want to live in Griffith's dream?  This would indicate that he doesn't want to be apart of Griffith's dream of having his own kingdom, basically not living in the kingdom where Griffith would be in charge ruling over him. If that's the case, then Guts could have waited until after Griffith married Charlotte and then left the morning of the ceremony.  It's likely that nobody would really give too much mind to it and just assumed Guts went out to train or something as Guts has shown to have always been that kind of guy.  Nobody would have suspected Guts actually left until after the marriage and Griffith being crowned king.  That way even if Griffith was sad and depressed about it he would have been able to lay with Charlotte without any fear of punishment as he would be the rightful king and Charlotte would be his queen.  I'm sorry but when you look at the story in a more "realistic" point of view, it makes it seem silly that Guts never at least talked to Griffith about it.  I mean, it didn't even come to his mind that maybe Griffith thought of him differently considering the fact that he saved Guts more than on one occasion in ways that Casca said was out of character?  Or the fact that Griffith and him seem to hang out with each other a lot more than the other members of the hawks?  I feel that the lack of communication is what caused the unfortunate events leading up to the downfall of Griffith which in turn caused the dramatic event of the Eclipse.  *sigh* It really saddens me, because I feel like this all could have easily been avoided.  Well, at least the tragedy provides a masterpiece story!  What do you guys think?  You think this all could have been avoided if Guts left later or maybe things would have just been more or less the same or maybe even worse?

Offline Maxwell

Re: Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 07:53:55 AM »
Sure Guts could've left later or talked to him about it, but Griffith's downfall would've happened no matter what. He was designed and destined to be reborn as a God Hand from the very beginning of his existence. If Guts never left then there would've been another reason for Griffith to get into a situation where he activates the beherit and chooses to sacrifice.

Also, I feel like this topic has probably been discussed a lot on this site ever since it's creation and you could've probably of found the answers you were looking for and the member's opinions on the subject via the search engine instead of making a new thread.  :guts:

Welcome to the forums by the way.  :griffnotevil:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 11:46:16 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Guts say that he didn't want to live in Griffith's dream?  This would indicate that he doesn't want to be apart of Griffith's dream of having his own kingdom, basically not living in the kingdom where Griffith would be in charge ruling over him.

You're completely overthinking this. Guts just didn't want to be a mere underling, which is how Griffith affected to consider everybody. He wanted to be his own man and do his own thing. You have to remember what sparked this: when he overheard Griffith's speech to Charlotte in volume 6. Griffith spoke in no uncertain terms and that cut through to Guts.

If that's the case, then Guts could have waited until after Griffith married Charlotte and then left the morning of the ceremony.  It's likely that nobody would really give too much mind to it and just assumed Guts went out to train or something as Guts has shown to have always been that kind of guy.  Nobody would have suspected Guts actually left until after the marriage and Griffith being crowned king.

That's a really flawed reasoning. Guts already waited quite a long time before leaving. He stayed till the end of the war, till Griffith and his Band of the Falcon had all become war heroes. Till not only Julius and Adonis, but the Queen and all of Griffith's opponents at the court were dead. Then, a month after all of that, he left. At that point in time, Griffith was nowhere close to being crowed king. The king would have never allowed him to take his succession right away, so it would have take years for it to happen, if not until the king's death. And what was there for Guts to do in the meantime? The war was over. There was no need to fight anymore. There was no need for him. Except maybe to conduct assassinations, and we know that's not something he enjoyed. The death of Adonis probably played a role in Guts' decision to leave as well. So really it can hardly be said that he left early. He rather waited until he had fulfilled all of what he perceived were his obligations.

And what you ought to consider is that, despiste not really having a need for him anymore, Griffith did not want him to leave. Would have rather killed him that let it happen. What makes you think that would have been any different if he'd been crowned king? I don't think it would have. Griffith used Guts as a mental crutch for his insecurities as well as a trump card on the battlefield. He would have wanted him to stay forever.

I'm sorry but when you look at the story in a more "realistic" point of view, it makes it seem silly that Guts never at least talked to Griffith about it.

Maybe he already knew how it'd go and preferred to avoid the confrontation? Maybe it would have been hard for him to say goodbye, not just to Griffith but to everyone else as well? I don't see what's so unrealistic about it.

I feel that the lack of communication is what caused the unfortunate events leading up to the downfall of Griffith which in turn caused the dramatic event of the Eclipse.  *sigh* It really saddens me, because I feel like this all could have easily been avoided.

Many things contributed to the events that resulted in the birth of Femto. Like Maxwell said, it was meant to be. All had been planned, not only Griffith's spectacular downfall but his spectacular rise as well. All had been planned that goal in mind. The Idea of Evil saw to it. So really, it doesn't matter how it happened, because the result would have eventually been the same.

Offline Giovanna

Re: Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 12:33:17 PM »
Griffith used Guts as a mental crutch for his insecurities as well as a trump card on the battlefield.

Thank you so much for this part. I always tried to summarized my thoughts regarding Griffith's necessity for Guts, but couldn't. You just did that for me.

Offline Salibu

Re: Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2013, 08:08:33 PM »
Quote
Many things contributed to the events that resulted in the birth of Femto. Like Maxwell said, it was meant to be. All had been planned, not only Griffith's spectacular downfall but his spectacular rise as well. All had been planned that goal in mind. The Idea of Evil saw to it. So really, it doesn't matter how it happened, because the result would have eventually been the same.

That cannot be completely true. If the plans the IoE has cannot be stopped than there is no point to a journey by Guts and his band to stop Griffith.
You have to assume the IoE can be defeated which means there has to be a life plan that would have resulted in Griffith not turning.

Maybe I am missing something, but if its 100% true, that Griffith was going to become Godhand and that everything would happen according to IoE's plan, than whats the point?
But Guts lived meaning the IoE can indeed be defeated/beaten.

So, isnt it possible something could have happened forcing Griffith to not turn?
Most RPGs:
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2013, 09:30:34 PM »
That cannot be completely true.

Yes it can, and it is.

If the plans the IoE has cannot be stopped than there is no point to a journey by Guts and his band to stop Griffith.

First off, Guts' chances to vanquish Griffith currently do not look very high. Secondly, he is not on such a journey at the moment. Thirdly, if you pay attention to what I actually wrote, I did not say that it was impossible to ever thwart the Idea of Evil in any way whatsoever. I said the entire life of Griffith (when he was human) had been planned out in order to lead to a particular result (him becoming Femto), and that no amount of goodwill on these simple humans' part could have changed their fate. They were all doomed from the onset, and their glorious times only ever happened so that the fall would be harder. They were engineered to "fail".

You have to assume the IoE can be defeated

Do I have to, actually? What does it even mean for the Idea of Evil to be defeated? Guts is surely not going to stab it with a sword.

which means there has to be a life plan that would have resulted in Griffith not turning.

Actually no, not really. Because things are not the same now as they were then. The world is very different and the people are as well. Guts, for example, and most notably because of the Brand.

Guts lived meaning the IoE can indeed be defeated/beaten.

And how do you come to that conclusion? What tells you that his survival wasn't planned? After all, if Guts and Casca hadn't survived, Femto could have not been incarnated the way he was in the story. So maybe it was planned, afterall? Void remained curiously silent when Slan mentioned after the fact that even they could have not seen SK's intervention coming. And in volume 34 Femto managed to trick SK into serving the God Hand's purpose.

So, isnt it possible something could have happened forcing Griffith to not turn?

What's sure is that it wasn't in Guts, Casca or anyone from the Band of the Falcon's power to prevent it, which is what my original point was. Now, maybe the Skull Knight could have had a chance, on some level. But he didn't try it, and what he pulled off, which was relatively minor in comparison, was already quite a feat. The only other possibility is that Griffith would have refused to sacrifice. But again, his entire life and himself had been created specifically so that he would eventually become Femto.

Offline Salibu

Re: Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2013, 05:13:31 PM »

What's sure is that it wasn't in Guts, Casca or anyone from the Band of the Falcon's power to prevent it, which is what my original point was. Now, maybe the Skull Knight could have had a chance, on some level. But he didn't try it, and what he pulled off, which was relatively minor in comparison, was already quite a feat. The only other possibility is that Griffith would have refused to sacrifice. But again, his entire life and himself had been created specifically so that he would eventually become Femto.

Thats kind of what I am getting at. There has to be a chance that Griffith would have denied the sacrifice if he had not been so beat down. The apostles and Godhands all arose from time of anger/hatred. Whose to say a different path might not have led Griffith to pick the insanity route?
Most RPGs:
"YOU ARE THE DESTINED WARRIORS THAT WILL SAVE OUR COUNTRY! HERE, FIGHT WITH THESE WOODEN STICKS UNTIL YOU FIND SOME MONEY."

Offline Walter

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Re: Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2013, 06:01:31 PM »
Whose to say a different path might not have led Griffith to pick the insanity route?
It didn't, because it wasn't meant to go down that way. That's all.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2013, 08:27:39 PM »
There has to be a chance that Griffith would have denied the sacrifice if he had not been so beat down.

But that's not saying much. He was meant to be "beat down". That was all planned so that he'd sacrifice.

Offline Lunchbox5000

Re: Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 09:46:27 PM »
Sure Guts could've left later or talked to him about it, but Griffith's downfall would've happened no matter what. He was designed and destined to be reborn as a God Hand from the very beginning of his existence. If Guts never left then there would've been another reason for Griffith to get into a situation where he activates the beherit and chooses to sacrifice.

Just my two cents here: I always considered Guts' leaving to be the ever-intended Catalyst of Griffith's downfall, and absolutely necessary for events to pan out as they did. I think I mentioned this in another thread or forum while talking about the 'why' of Zodd lending Guts his assistance in the Battle for Doldrey. Consider that everything that's happened up to this point has been planned and preordained by the IoE. In order for Griffith to NEED to give up his comrades to become Femto, he must have certain things: He must have an unquenchable ambition for power, he must have the love of his comrades, and above all, he must be absolutely irrevocably broken. He must go from tasting the life he's fought so hard for to being completely destroyed, without even the shadow of hope left in him. Maybe these aren't requirements which were set in stone, but they certainly provided the formula for Femto. Griffith had to say 'yes'. Only someone who was as broken, spiteful, and blindly determined as he was would have done such a thing. So the way I see it, the IoE plans it this way. Griffith develops love for Guts, but Guts is designed to be just a little too independent and proud to be Griffith's tool. So Guts will inevitably bail right at the peak of their success, causing Griffith to plummet into madness, bed the princess, and be stripped of everything but his bones and a few pounds of flesh. That's what's needed for 'a Femto'. The reason I mentioned this while talking about Zodd and Doldrey is that it's fair to assume that without Zodd's help, Guts would have died fighting Boscogne. The battle may still have been won, but Guts would not have later abandoned Griffith, he would have been a casualty of war. A few tears at the funeral and a month of depression are all that were likely to follow for Griffith. Maybe a giant Guts statue out in Griffith's front yard someday too. Losing a companion to war would have hurt, but a companion CHOOSING to leave him hurts way worse. Without Guts being around to forsake Griffith, he never would have taken the emotional blows that drove him mad. The IoE required that Guts - Griffith's friend and closest companion - leave him out of personal interest. Now, did Zodd think that's why he lent Guts his sword? Probably not. But I'd bet my left nut that the IoE did.

It makes sense to me this way. Everything, especially the events which occur earlier in the series, I consider part of the IoE's grand design. Not just Griffith's birth and life but everyone's. They all meet conditions which ordain that Griffith would one day fall from grace following Guts' forsaking him, and eventually have nothing left but a single chance to sign a deal with the devil for everything he's ever desired. The word 'chance' in Berserk, to me, just means the IoE at some point had two options on the table and decided which one would become a reality.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Why did Guts leave the Band of the Falcon so soon?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2013, 12:02:45 PM »
Griffith develops love for Guts, but Guts is designed to be just a little too independent and proud to be Griffith's tool. So Guts will inevitably bail right at the peak of their success, causing Griffith to plummet into madness, bed the princess, and be stripped of everything but his bones and a few pounds of flesh.

That's overstated, from Griffith loving Guts to "plummeting into madness" because of his departure. Griffith sure cared more than he should have and was seriously upset, but he would have gotten over it quickly enough. It's the imprisonment and torture that dealt serious blows to his sanity.