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Author Topic: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]  (Read 84332 times)

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Offline SuperVegetto

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2013, 09:00:33 PM »
Quality itself is subjective though, one person's opinion can't be stated as a universal standard.

Nothing is really subjective, only people lacking the intelligence or methods to objectively judge one thing.

One person's opinion can't be stated as a universal standard, but when he gives arguments and it makes sense it isn't wrongful of him to rage at others claiming the opposite (especially when it's really stupid for them to do, not saying it to you, but many supporters of this trilogy are extremely annoying, check youtube comments in the most viewed Aria video for example).
Also even a billion people's shared opinion can't be stated as a truth just because they are many people believing it, if such a thing is used as an argument that would be an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2013, 09:07:08 PM »
Nothing is really subjective, only people lacking the intelligence or methods to objectively judge one thing.

One person's opinion can't be stated as a universal standard, but when he gives arguments and it makes sense it isn't wrongful of him to rage at others claiming the opposite (especially when it's really stupid for them to do, not saying it to you, but many supporters of this trilogy are extremely annoying, check youtube comments in the most viewed Aria video for example).
Also even a billion people's shared opinion can't be stated as a truth just because they are many people believing it, if such a thing is used as an argument that would be an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

That's true that majority rule doesn't make something good. After all, Twilight became a best seller. But different people judge quality on different things. Take this movie series for example.

Now this is from a neutral perspective, of somebody who has never read the manga or seen the 90s anime. If a person likes character driven plots, and personal relationships and deep romances, they wouldn't think much of this series at all. But if another person likes action and fight scenes and pretty animation, then they'll enjoy it a lot. One of these people is no more right or wrong than the other. That's where subjective quality comes in.

Offline SuperVegetto

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2013, 09:10:35 PM »
It's still very objective in my opinion to judge it as an adaptation, which this trilogy is obviously terrible at.
It doesn't matter if they showed the favorite scenes of someone who loves action more than the other aspects, because it's quite possible that one who likes action more than story and character development has a far inferior taste to the others who are the opposite of that (also what the series's spirit is more about), even if this might not be able to be objectively proved to others so far, there is an absolute truth to every particular thing.

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2013, 09:16:47 PM »
It's still very objective in my opinion to judge it as an adaptation, which this trilogy is obviously terrible at.
It doesn't matter if they showed the favorite scenes of someone who loves action more than the other aspects, because it's quite possible that one who likes action more than story and character development has a far inferior taste to the others who are the opposite of that (also what the series's spirit is more about), even if this might not be able to be objectively proved to others so far, there is an absolute truth to every particular thing.
Judging it in comparison with the manga is unfair though, otherwise almost every anime ever made would be inferior to their source material.

Look, I don't think this series was a masterpiece, but I enjoyed them. I judge the series in comparison with other anime, not with the manga. I'm not trying to say my opinion is more or less valid than yours or anybody else's. But what I'm not going to stand for is my intelligence or my credibility as a Berserk fan brought into question for saying that I liked the movies.

Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2013, 09:19:44 PM »
Quality itself is subjective though, one person's opinion can't be stated as a universal standard.

It can get close if those discussing can agree on some ground rules and definitions. 
Now I ride with the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night wind
And play by day in the catacombs
I know that light is not for me, save that of the moon
Yet in my new wildness and freedom I welcome the bitterness of alienage
For I know always that I am an outsider...an outsider...stranger in this century...for a time
A stranger among those who are still...men

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2013, 09:21:45 PM »
It can get close if those discussing can agree on some ground rules and definitions.
The original comment here was in response to one person saying their opinion is more valid than a million hypothetical people agreeing on something.

Although I will reiterate, majority rule doesn't make something good. Look how much more popular Naruto is than Berserk. Plus, as I said, Twilight became a best seller.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2013, 09:46:46 PM »
They may not receive rave reviews, but they are still ranked more favorably damn near everywhere else on the net. MAL has it ranked around 8/10, they both have 4-5 stars on Amazon, ANN generally gives them good reviews.

I don't know whether I'm supposed to laugh or cry. Everybody here knows what the fact of the matter is when it comes to those movies. Some are just lying to themselves about it.

Well that's a little uncalled for don't you think? I could just as easily call you a snob. And why should I respect your opinion on that? I've been following the series long enough that I have the first volume of the 90s anime on VHS. I still remember when it was a bitch to find manga chapters online. I'm not going to accept any random person on the internet talking down to me, because they think they're a better fan because I liked these movies.

I don't think you understand. I don't care whether you respect my opinion or not. Your respect is worth nothing to me. And I also don't care that you had trouble finding episodes online at some point; back when you did, we were buying Young Animal here. Anyway, I said what I thought and your lack of argumentation isn't going to change my mind. You've chosen to feel yourself targeted by my comment, that in itself is telling enough to me.

Anyone's free to enjoy the shittiest things if they so desire, but that doesn't make said things any less shitty.

The original comment here was in response to one person saying their opinion is more valid than a million hypothetical people agreeing on something.

Although I will reiterate, majority rule doesn't make something good. Look how much more popular Naruto is than Berserk. Plus, as I said, Twilight became a best seller.

So you did get the point afterall. A million person could say so, it still wouldn't make it true. But that's moot anyway, as it's not the case and never will be.

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #82 on: June 21, 2013, 10:52:17 PM »
I don't know whether I'm supposed to laugh or cry. Everybody here knows what the fact of the matter is when it comes to those movies. Some are just lying to themselves about it.

You're claim was that they weren't positively reviewed anywhere. The fact that there is an opinion myopia around here regarding them is a moot point. And again, everybody here is comparing it against the manga. Other anime reviewing sites rate it as a work in and of itself, as it should be viewed. And I've already spoken to like three people who said they were basically brow beaten into keeping their mouths shut about liking the movies.

Quote
I don't care whether you respect my opinion or not. Your respect is worth nothing to me.
Right back at you. I don't care whether you think I'm a good Berserk fan or not. But when you try to make a claim of fact, saying "you are a bad Berserk an" rather than "I think you're a bad Berserk fan" you place yourself in a position of authority, claiming your opinion is worthy of respect since you set yourself up in a position to judge a truth about others.

Quote
And I also don't care that you had trouble finding episodes online at some point; back when you did, we were buying Young Animal here.
Not sure what you're trying to imply with this?

Quote
So you did get the point afterall. A million person could say so, it still wouldn't make it true.
Neither does you saying it's true.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 11:53:22 PM by Heisenberg »

Offline Hanma_Baki

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2013, 12:20:14 AM »
I dont get why theres even a discussion at all here. I mean the fact stands as clear as it has ever since we saw the first part of this project: THEY'VE ALTERED THE SOURCE MATERIAL. PERIOD. Its really just as simple as that. And in case one wants to get picky, the amount of material they've "just" cut would pretty much count as an alteration imo.

This is Berserk, I assume  we're all here because we LOVE the manga - "this beautiful masterpiece"  if it really needs to be spelled out. Liking these movies kinda implies that one dosen't really care all that much about the importance/profound impact of the source material, the beauty is that its created just the way it is and any other way wouldn't do, think about that for a sec...

No matter how sincerely great the trilogy would've been, in the end it still wouldn't have been _Berserk_ due to the alterations. See where I'm going with this?

(But what's most pathetic is that the trilogy isn't even good on its own merit. Things are so badly misinterpreted that it ultimately conveys a completely different message. You could kinda compare it to the creation of a construction building - make one tiny little miscalculation in the measurement process at the foundation stage and the final product goes WRONG, its kinda the same with the fragile story of Berserk, mishandle it even just a tad, and you end up with something else)

EDIT:
Now - not that it really matters [read above] but - I'll mention a few notes, since it is a review thread after all.

*Guts face expression when seeing/trying to grasp the fact that Cascas mind has regressed was very well done and really heartbreaking. The sprint worked I guess, though that 20 feet fall was a bit too exaggerating for my taste, he should still be at least a little sour from the eclipse. Liked the last noises he made there - finally something done almost perfect. Overall though - and needless to say - the manga-way clearly would've been the right way to go, one of my favorite episodes actually. And the sad thing is that Miuras work is so detailed that the manga itself would've been a superb storyboard here, just like pretty much the rest of the manga as well.

*SK totally steals the show (in this catastrophy, I might add) and especially the eclipse entrance, but that might as well have been out of relief that the awkward rape scene had ended. He wasn't that much of a presence in the last scene though.

*The creativity liberty with the arm cutting was actually a nice touch, still prefer the manga way of course...

*Ubics entrance was hilarious, the right kind of hilarious for once.

*Griffiths suicide attempt scene nicely done. Would've worked in the ideal Berserk adaptation, I guess.

As much as I would like to mention all the bad and the REALLY bad stuff its frankly just too much and I know most of its been said already more or less so I'll spare you.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 09:46:18 PM by Hanma_Baki »

Offline Sammoniac

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2013, 02:40:22 AM »
I forgot to mention Guts almost stabbing Femto. I wasn't sure if they were trying to show Guts almost overpowering him, or Femto just screwing around with him. based on the laughs from the apostles afterwards I got the feeling it was the latter.

I'm afraid that its an attempt at imagery from the creators. They wanted to imply that Femto is out of Guts' reach,  as if he was untouchable. To me, it doesn't look like Guts is "almost overpowering him" at all. That's the problem with these movies. The creators wanted to put their own 'creative ideas' everywhere, over-dramatizing almost every scene and making changes that serve no purpose other than to puzzle and frustrate fans. For example, by making the beginning of the eclipse in blue, they wanted it to contrast even more with the horrors that happen when Griffith surrenders. Was it really necessary?

They probably think that Miura isn't creative enough.....

Online Walter

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #85 on: June 22, 2013, 03:22:58 AM »
And again, everybody here is comparing it against the manga. Other anime reviewing sites rate it as a work in and of itself, as it should be viewed.
How could that be the standard for those of us who are intimately knowledgeable of the series? We can only honestly judge it based on the experiences we have. To purport to do otherwise strikes me as being disingenuous, if not deluded. As someone purportedly familiar with the series, exactly what kind of mental gymnastics did you undertake in order to review this movie "as a work in and of itself"?

Now, even if your conclusion was a little baffling to me, at least you've explained your feelings in a review format, unlike the 5 other four-star voters in this thread.

Not sure what you're trying to imply with this?
Hunting down episodes online is hardly a  badge of honor for a fan... Surely you're aware of the inherent flaw in that statement.

Liking these movies kinda implies that one dosen't really care all that much about the importance/profound impact of the source material, the beauty is that its created just the way it is and any other way wouldn't do, think about that for a sec...
Playing devil's advocate here... While I understand your sentiment, I think there's a case to be made by people who are somehow able to rationalize the changes and swallow the whole thing, I just haven't read a convincing review yet.

I would normally be the last person to argue in favor of adaptations of any sort, but there are cases where adaptations have been a success. Dozens of movies have translated written material to the screen successfully (as have hundreds of failures), however these successes are generally the ones that treat the source material with the utmost respect, which clearly wasn't the case here. I believe that has always been the germ of the problem with this adaptation. Too often, I got the impression Studio 4C thought they could handle certain things better than Miura, hence many of the over-exaggerated scenes.

We've been arguing over this point since the project was first shown off. Some can look at these movies and still see the spirit of Berserk somewhere inside. Others look at it and see a failed attempt to cash in on a long-running series. At worst, it's insulting. At best, it's a novelty: "Oh boy, more Berserk!" But unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone has called these movies a triumph of any kind.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #86 on: June 22, 2013, 03:25:46 AM »
I'm afraid that its an attempt at imagery from the creators. They wanted to imply that Femto is out of Guts' reach,  as if he was untouchable. To me, it doesn't look like Guts is "almost overpowering him" at all. That's the problem with these movies. The creators wanted to put their own 'creative ideas' everywhere, over-dramatizing almost every scene and making changes that serve no purpose other than to puzzle and frustrate fans. For example, by making the beginning of the eclipse in blue, they wanted it to contrast even more with the horrors that happen when Griffith surrenders. Was it really necessary?

They probably think that Miura isn't creative enough.....

They were basically given a playbook to follow for a successful trilogy. All the characters, their mannerisms, their emotions, everything you could ever want to know about them is in print in pictures, not just words like a standard novel where you have to interpret the story based on the details and your imagination. They purposely stripped the story down to some of the basic ideas and scenes but took away anything that made them have a deeper meaning. It was like a cliff's notes version of Berserk. Everything the creators did with the movies to try to enhance something was an utter failure. They should have gone by the manga as much as possible and only cut out parts (or shortened them) that would be forgivable based on the time limitations. On the other hand they just should have tacked on 30 minutes to each film and given themselves even more time to fill in the story, but then again they probably would have wasted that as well.

I can't imagine Miura was pleased by these pathetic attempts to capture the world he has taken so many years to create. I don't think any writer/mangaka or what have you that had their work butchered in such a way would be anything but livid. Especially given it's the world of manga and not a traditional novel that was adapted into a movie with a budget of a couple hundred million that would at least offer the consolation of a big paycheck. Miura still has to go back and work his ass off with the thought in the back of his mind that they are going to keep making shitty adaptations for as long as they can make money off of it.

You're claim was that they weren't positively reviewed anywhere. The fact that there is an opinion myopia around here regarding them is a moot point. And again, everybody here is comparing it against the manga. Other anime reviewing sites rate it as a work in and of itself, as it should be viewed.

Even as a work in and of itself it is pretty bad. The pacing is horrible and you get these small segments where they are trying to pack in as much emotional content as possible, usually two characters talking alone (with the music trying its hardest to "deepen" the scene), and then it goes back to bad pacing and horrible animation. And that's another thing. The animation in this film was terrible. The only time you got any decent conveying of emotions was during close ups of the characters, as if they couldn't render anything but bland faces the rest of the time. The 3D added nothing, it actually made the images look dull and took you out of the scene. They should have stuck with 2D for the entire series. If you compare the anime series and this film there really isn't a huge leap in quality, even though they were made 13-14 years apart.
Now I ride with the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night wind
And play by day in the catacombs
I know that light is not for me, save that of the moon
Yet in my new wildness and freedom I welcome the bitterness of alienage
For I know always that I am an outsider...an outsider...stranger in this century...for a time
A stranger among those who are still...men

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #87 on: June 22, 2013, 03:58:36 AM »
Hunting down episodes online is hardly a  badge of honor for a fan... Surely you're aware of the inherent flaw in that statement.
That's not what I said though. I said that i still remembered when it was impossible to find manga chapters online cause nobody was really scanning it back then. You changed the word to episodes and bolded it, which was what I didn't understand. I even said in the same post that I had the series on VHS/DVD so idk why you assumed I was looking for episodes online.

Quote
How could that be the standard for those of us who are intimately knowledgeable of the series? We can only honestly judge it based on the experiences we have. To purport to do otherwise strikes me as being disingenuous, if not deluded. As someone purportedly familiar with the series, exactly what kind of mental gymnastics did you undertake in order to review this movie "as a work in and of itself"?
Really I don't know. Now that I think of it, I understand what you're saying. I keep trying to explain to everybody I know why the Walking Dead TV show is complete shit since I've already read the comics. But something about this series just didn't offend me as much.

I love Berserk, I really do. It's easily my favorite series, as well as the one that's consistently been with me the longest. Of course I think it's a masterpiece just as it is, but to me, the films, while inferior, don't diminish the name of the series as much. Maybe it's actually because I'm so familiar with the manga already. I didn't mind not seeing the backstory with Guts and Casca falling in love, because I've already read it and I know it's there, so I just enjoy the beautiful animation.

When I judge the series I try and do so, not as an adaptation of Berserk, but just as an anime in and of itself. 1 star is something I would give to a complete shit anime like the typical shounen refuse that gets pumped out every day. If nothing else we have three great action movies. Maybe I'm just more forgiving and love it just because I'll love anything Berserk related, idk.

I do feel though, personal bias aside, that people are harder on these movies than they deserve. I've heard people say that the cheesy 3D are grounds for saying the animation of the entire project is bad, and nit pick little things like the foresters seeing the female apostle instead of the snake baron.. Then these same people who complain about the CGI completely ignore the awkward lip flaps and stills in the 90s anime.

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2013, 05:20:09 AM »
I don't get why theres even a discussion at all here. I mean the fact stands as clear as it has ever since we saw the first part of this project: THEY'VE ALTERED THE SOURCE MATERIAL. PERIOD.

[....]

No matter how sincerely great the trilogy would've been, in the end it still wouldn't have been _Berserk_ due to the alterations. See where I'm going with this?

Not trying to attack you here Hama, but there are some pretty serious flaws in your argument or at least in your standards for adaptations in general.  By your logic as I understand it, as soon as you deviate in any way from the source material in an adaptation, you have utterly corrupted it.  By this standard, every film or TV adaptation of a work from another media (comic, novel, biography, etc) is a complete failure.  If that's your stance, then why on earth would you ever watch an adaptation of anything?  :azan:

By the very nature of different mediums, adaptation will require some changes, be it from length limitations or from aspects that just don't translate well from page to the moving image.  For example, a characters inner thoughts are very hard to accurately translate without resorting to long winded voice over, which can get boring on screen and is often better portrayed by simple good acting.  Same goes for intricate backstories and world building that can kill the momentum of a plot if done in a way that doesn't naturally add to the story.  This is something that Game of Thrones does well, by giving little bits of history when it's needed.

All this being said, this is not a very good adaptation.  The pace is way off, even if judged on it's own as a movie.  Each film climaxes two thirds in and then goes on and on only to end on fairly transitional scenes.  For example, the ghost scene is a terrible ending.  It should have ended either near the cave or better yet with the pig apostle.  Also the characters backstory are clunky or too vague.  Guts' childhood is confusing in the film, Casca's isn't much better, and the stuff between Gennon and Griffith is delivered in a long winded scene after it would've had any impact.     

I would normally be the last person to argue in favor of adaptations of any sort, but there are cases where adaptations have been a success. Dozens of movies have translated written material to the screen successfully (as have hundreds of failures), however these successes are generally the ones that treat the source material with the utmost respect, which clearly wasn't the case here.

I think these films could have been good, even with cuts and changes as long as they preserved the spirit of the plot and accurate characterizations. There was no way they were going to get a 1:1 of the manga without doing another series (which might have been a better idea) but they could have created something that made us care about these characters and presented a compelling plot to springboard the rest of the series. As KazigluBey said, this was the cliffs notes version. A soulless representation of berserk that only managed to get the basic events in order (most of the time). I REALLY wish these films were good, I don't like to be disappointed with them, but they put way more emphasis on titillation and violence porn than they did on characterization. They're like the a bad Michael Bay film.

They purposely stripped the story down to some of the basic ideas and scenes but took away anything that made them have a deeper meaning. It was like a cliff's notes version of Berserk. Everything the creators did with the movies to try to enhance something was an utter failure. They should have gone by the manga as much as possible and only cut out parts (or shortened them) that would be forgivable based on the time limitations. On the other hand they just should have tacked on 30 minutes to each film and given themselves even more time to fill in the story.

I completely agree with this.

I still remember when it was a bitch to find manga chapters on-line.

The problem everyone has about this is the fact that you weren't supporting the series you purport to love.  Relying solely on on-line scans does not help the series become a success and a very recent thread discusses how this is actually tanking the Dark Horse Volumes.  They aren't making the back issues anymore because too few people are buying. Yet the recent torrents of the series have MILLIONS of downloads.

Also the individual issues are called episodes, not chapters.  Chapters are something else entirely in the series and it just gets confusing.  :slan:

You can roll your eyes, that won't ward off my utter contempt.

[...]

Well you should be ashamed of yourself.

C'mon Aaz. That tones not helping foster any sense of community. I don't think Heisenberg's wrong to take some of your comments as ad hominem attacks and it's stopping debate in it's tracks. If the guy liked it I don't think a crucifixion is in order. I think multiple viewpoints is good, and enjoyment is fairly subjective. Personally I'm looking forward to your own review.  :serpico:

I do agree with you that the films do give off a bad perception of what Berserk is to the uninitiated, so in that way it may diminish the series overall reputation. But I don't think the films are the absolute worst shit I've ever seen, that's just hyperbole.  They're an overall disappointment, but they had some decent parts throughout. Some sequences I even enjoyed. But they had every opportunity to get it right and came far short.   

Alright those are my two cents for now.

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #89 on: June 22, 2013, 05:43:30 AM »

The problem everyone has about this is the fact that you weren't supporting the series you purport to love.  Relying solely on on-line scans does not help the series become a success and a very recent thread discusses how this is actually tanking the Dark Horse Volumes.  They aren't making the back issues anymore because too few people are buying. Yet the recent torrents of the series have MILLIONS of downloads.

I was 15 years old when I first got into Berserk, maybe 14. I didn't have access to a credit card and had no way of actually purchasing the manga. Plus this was before piracy became a really big thing

Now 13 years later I own every Dark Horse manga volume, the Box of War set of the original anime series as well as the remastered version they released in 2009 and I still have the VHS tape of the first six episodes. I have the Blu Rays for all three movies as well. I also have little plastic statues of Guts, Griffith, Casca, Zodd, and the Skull Knight, plush dolls of Guts and Griffith, two posters, and a keychain. I still read the manga when it's first posted online, but then I go out and buy the volumes when they're released.

I do my part in supporting Berserk.

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #90 on: June 22, 2013, 05:51:05 AM »
I was 15 years old when I first got into Berserk, maybe 14. I didn't have access to a credit card and had no way of actually purchasing the manga.

Now 13 years later I own every Dark Horse manga volume, the Box of War set of the original anime series as well as the remastered version they released in 2009 and I still have the VHS tape of the first six episodes. I have the Blu Rays for all three movies as well. I also have little plastic statues of Guts, Griffith, Casca, Zodd, and the Skull Knight, plush dolls of Guts and Griffith, two posters, and a keychain. I still read the manga when it's first posted online, but then I go out and buy the volumes when they're released.

I do my part in supporting Berserk.

Good for you.  You're a rare breed to transition from scanlations to the volumes.  I was just trying to inform you as to why championing your previous online scan efforts would seem hypocritical.  If you buy the volumes, I doubt anyone takes issue.   

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #91 on: June 22, 2013, 05:57:14 AM »
Good for you.  You're a rare breed to transition from scanlations to the volumes.  I was just trying to inform you as to why championing your previous online scan efforts would seem hypocritical.  If you buy the volumes, I doubt anyone takes issue.
No, I gotcha. I didn't mean for it to come off like that, I was just trying to say that I'd been with the series for a long time. I always try to support the anime that I watch buy buying the official releases.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #92 on: June 22, 2013, 06:37:10 AM »
You're claim was that they weren't positively reviewed anywhere.

No, that's not what I said.

And again, everybody here is comparing it against the manga. Other anime reviewing sites rate it as a work in and of itself, as it should be viewed.

Ah, so you get to decide how things should be viewed now? Regardless, these movies are pretty bad even when not compared to the manga. They hardly stand on their own.

And I've already spoken to like three people who said they were basically brow beaten into keeping their mouths shut about liking the movies.

Oh, Heisenberg, champion of the oppressed! If the poor people can't stand to have their views challenged on a discussion forum, there's not much one can do for them.

Right back at you. I don't care whether you think I'm a good Berserk fan or not. But when you try to make a claim of fact, saying "you are a bad Berserk an" rather than "I think you're a bad Berserk fan" you place yourself in a position of authority, claiming your opinion is worthy of respect since you set yourself up in a position to judge a truth about others.

Unfortunately for you I actually am in a position of authority, and not just because I'm an administrator of this forum.

This is Berserk, I assume  we're all here because we LOVE the manga - "this beautiful masterpiece"  if it really needs to be spelled out. Liking these movies kinda implies that one dosen't really care all that much about the importance/profound impact of the source material, the beauty is that its created just the way it is and any other way wouldn't do, think about that for a sec.

No matter how sincerely great the trilogy would've been, in the end it still wouldn't have been _Berserk_ due to the alterations. See where I'm going with this?

You're definitely right, but that last sentence just isn't true. It's actually been the default, specious line of those who would defend this adaptation, as they would have defended anything really. But there could have been a lot of alterations made while still doing justice to the original material. No one was ever expecting a 1:1 adaptation with black and white still slides showing on screen. However there's a middle ground between that and what we got.

I love Berserk, I really do. It's easily my favorite series, as well as the one that's consistently been with me the longest. Of course I think it's a masterpiece just as it is, but to me, the films, while inferior, don't diminish the name of the series as much. Maybe it's actually because I'm so familiar with the manga already. I didn't mind not seeing the backstory with Guts and Casca falling in love, because I've already read it and I know it's there, so I just enjoy the beautiful animation.

Now we get to the truth of the matter. It being that you're the one actually not being able to consider these movies as they would be to someone not familar with the manga. Look at what you're saying here: you don't care about the omissions because you already know how everything "is" in the manga. So you can enjoy the moving pictures for what they are, like you'd enjoy a fan drawing. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should realize that it's not a proper criterion for judging the quality of something, nor is it how you just described those movies "should" be viewed.

What I've actually been doing when viewing those movies myself is first consider them as an adaptation of the manga and compare it against the source material, and second to consider them as a standalone product, the goal of which would be to introduce people to the manga by showcasing the kind of quality what can expect from it. I've found them severely lacking in both instances.

When I judge the series I try and do so, not as an adaptation of Berserk, but just as an anime in and of itself. 1 star is something I would give to a complete shit anime like the typical shounen refuse that gets pumped out every day. If nothing else we have three great action movies. Maybe I'm just more forgiving and love it just because I'll love anything Berserk related, idk.

Honestly I think you're very partial here, even in the wording your use. "Shounen refuse" vs "anything Berserk related". It's pretty clear to me that your love for the series makes you overly forgiving.

I do feel though, personal bias aside, that people are harder on these movies than they deserve. I've heard people say that the cheesy 3D are grounds for saying the animation of the entire project is bad, and nit pick little things like the foresters seeing the female apostle instead of the snake baron.. Then these same people who complain about the CGI completely ignore the awkward lip flaps and stills in the 90s anime.

Eh, well the old TV series was far, faaaaar from being perfect. But, and that's also due to its format (but again, it's Studio 4C's fault for insanely trying to adapt the Golden Age arc into what was originally a single movie), it was still a lot more faithful, and so, almost mechanically (as the original material is so good that staying close to it ensures your adaptation a certain level of quality), necessarily better.

C'mon Aaz. That tones not helping foster any sense of community. I don't think Heisenberg's wrong to take some of your comments as ad hominem attacks and it's stopping debate in it's tracks. If the guy liked it I don't think a crucifixion is in order. I think multiple viewpoints is good, and enjoyment is fairly subjective.

But fostering a sense of community isn't my goal here. I do not believe there exists such a sense in the people most concerned with my remark anyway. That aside, my comment wasn't meant for Heisenberg, but I'm not sorry that it prompted him to justify his fandom either. And this is hardly a crucifixion: I just spoke my mind, no one had to answer. Lastly, you'll notice I did state the obvious fact that people can enjoy whatever they want, I'm just dissociating it from labeling things "good". And I don't think debate has stopped at all, on the contrary.

But I don't think the films are the absolute worst shit I've ever seen, that's just hyperbole.

No one's said that though. You know, I always carefully consider what I say. More carefully than most people realize I guess.

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #93 on: June 22, 2013, 07:20:03 AM »
No, that's not what I said.
That was the implication that I got. Your claim was that you hadn't seen any animated movie critics or periodicals praising the movies, which infers that they don't have any positive reviews.

Quote
Unfortunately for you I actually am in a position of authority, and not just because I'm an administrator of this forum.
Obviously on this site. But what I meant was that by making a judgment about somebody else in the form of an absolute statement, you are claiming a position of authority over what does and does not constitute good taste. This is fine, but then when I asked you why I should take your opinion on quality over my own, you refused to back it up, saying you didn't care what I thought about your opinion.

Quote
Honestly I think you're very partial here, even in the wording your use. "Shounen refuse" vs "anything Berserk related". It's pretty clear to me that your love for the series makes you overly forgiving.
I'll freely admit that's a possibility, but I also think it's possible your love of the series is making you overly critical.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #94 on: June 22, 2013, 07:46:01 AM »
That was the implication that I got. Your claim was that you hadn't seen any animated movie critics or periodicals praising the movies, which infers that they don't have any positive reviews.

No, what I said is: "I haven't read any rave reviews from acclaimed movie critics". What that means is a more than positive, glowing review from someone appropriately qualified beyond the vague subgenre of "anime".

Obviously on this site. But what I meant was that by making a judgment about somebody else in the form of an absolute statement, you are claiming a position of authority over what does and does not constitute good taste. This is fine, but then when I asked you why I should take your opinion on quality over my own, you refused to back it up, saying you didn't care what I thought about your opinion.

Oh, I'm just claiming a position of authority over what constitutes or not a good adaptation of Berserk, based on my extensive knowledge of anything and everything Berserk related, to which everyone can attest. Why should you take my opinion of quality over your own? That is a false question. It should rather be: why should you seriously reconsider your thought process in deciding that these movies are good in spite of their flaws? To which I would answer that I cordially invite you to go carefully read all of my numerous posts on the topic, to see if they can convince you of my point.

I'll freely admit that's a possibility, but I also think it's possible your love of the series is making you overly critical.

But the difference between us is that I have lengthily demonstrated why those movies are bad, even when one does not factor in their love for the series. Furthermore, you have yourself stated that you didn't mind the omissions because you were already so familiar with the omitted material, which is admittedly a breach of the proper process of watching these movies as you initially described it.

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #95 on: June 22, 2013, 07:53:27 AM »
Furthermore, you have yourself stated that you didn't mind the omissions because you were already so familiar with the omitted material, which is admittedly a breach of the proper process of watching these movies as you initially described it.
That was me on a personal level. If you omit all knowledge of the series then a lot of the biggest flaws in the films go away.

I don't want to argue about it anymore though. I don't think we're going to come to any common ground on this.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #96 on: June 22, 2013, 08:06:53 AM »
That was me on a personal level.

But that doesn't change anything. You're making exceptions to your own "rules" as you go to justify your position.

If you omit all knowledge of the series then a lot of the biggest flaws in the films go away.

First off, I definitely disagree with that statement, and second, I think there would still be a serious problem with this adaptation if attempting to mentally block all knowledge of the series was a requirement in order to enjoy it. Third, if people who actually discovered Berserk by watching these movies want to give their opinions on them, they're welcome to. It's not my case though, so I'm not going to hypothetically speak for those people. And neither should you, as one could easily question on what authority you would be doing so.

I don't want to argue about it anymore though. I don't think we're going to come to any common ground on this.

That's fine by me. I've told you what I thought. If you want to talk about it again in the future, feel free to send me a PM, I'm always open to discussion.

Offline IcePuck

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #97 on: June 22, 2013, 09:49:56 AM »
Several people seem to think this is the best one of the three movies. I found this one the worst. Almost everything felt awkward and off. Conveying emotions really isn't Studio 4C's strong suit, and they left out half the cool action sequences with which they might actually have been able to do a good job. Casca sex? Didn't work. Corkus breaking down? Didn't work. (Plus Guts' raiders pissed me off by mewling) Casca rape?

I literally burst out laughing, I wish I had seen this in the movie theaters... Is that a common reaction, or did most people actually take this seriously? That has to be the most utterly inappropriate choice of music I've ever heard... The most memorable scene in the entire trilogy, but not quite for the right reason. =)

There's also a lot of abrupt fade downs that seem like break spots for commercials. Apostles are the god hand's cheer squad. An agent from the Matrix takes over the beherit. Silat is a run-of-the-mill sadistic villain with a pervert voice. Guts can stand up to the godhand. Lots of other small problems.

The only part that I truly enjoyed was the ending, post eclipse. The sense of despair and the mood was great, it made me a lot more impatient for the next episode of the manga, somehow.

And that's that. I do hope more Berserk animation gets done, but kind of a shame if it has to be Studio 4C. I don't think they have much potential for greatness. At best, stuff they do will be passable.

**

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #98 on: June 22, 2013, 10:47:35 AM »
Femto kind of made me laugh when I remembered that this is the same studio that did the Batman anime  :iva:

Offline puppet12ca

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #99 on: June 22, 2013, 11:53:29 AM »
I'm afraid that its an attempt at imagery from the creators. They wanted to imply that Femto is out of Guts' reach,  as if he was untouchable. To me, it doesn't look like Guts is "almost overpowering him" at all. That's the problem with these movies. The creators wanted to put their own 'creative ideas' everywhere, over-dramatizing almost every scene and making changes that serve no purpose other than to puzzle and frustrate fans. For example, by making the beginning of the eclipse in blue, they wanted it to contrast even more with the horrors that happen when Griffith surrenders. Was it really necessary?

They probably think that Miura isn't creative enough.....

well I thought about that scene and I figured that its purpose was to display one element present in the black swordsman arc namely establishing how far apart Guts and Femto were in terms of sheer power. Including it at this point in the story is a bit off balance I suppose but if they are moving on to the lost children chapter next I can kinda understand why it was included