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Author Topic: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]  (Read 86282 times)

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Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #150 on: June 30, 2013, 02:30:36 AM »
Yes, and I completely agree with you guys. Actually I stated in my first post that the failing of the second movie was that they didn't include the Bonfire of Dreams sequence...a very dumb move on their part. :mozgus: But I also suggested that the sex scene could have helped the past movies if they had added to the sex scene by putting in flashback scenes of childhood Guts in order to explain the killing of his father and the rape. It would have explained why he took risks on the battlefield before he met Griffith and how he didn't care too much about dying. Also would have explained why he was mad at Casca in the first movie when she said he was "you're just like you were before and you never changed" (something like that). It would have added layers to his character. After all, the sex scene does have Guts in dialogue explain to Casca his inner childhood turmoils. The only difference they could have done and added in the movie was put a bit more visual representation. That would have made the movie and trilogy much better. Not as masterful as the manga (that's for sure) but it definitely would have been a great addition that adds to the characters and Eclipse.......but the point here is that they didn't. They took a masterpiece and turned it into average movies. Very annoying and I could definitely see why people would be insulted.

One of the problems with the flashback scenes is that they do a really poor job of showing the audience what really happened. The effect they use is kind of a disjointed dream like visual but unless you know what happens from the manga you are going to be hard pressed to have a clear picture. They could have used a few minutes and showed Guts when he was with Gambino. Then you have the scene when Guts is being paid for his part in storming the castle that the Band of the Hawk was helping to defend, and the guy paying him puts his hand on Guts' shoulder and Guts recoils and threatens the guy, saying not to touch him. Guts traumatic experiences as a child plays a huge part in his personal transformation. I mean his being able to be intimate and ultimately have sex with Casca just goes to show how much he has changed. Given what happened to him as a kid it's obvious why he would want to be a loner and see real friendship as something strange.

Then you have the dream sequence after Griffith is rescued where he's married to Casca. He's shown as some pathetic character that needs to be taken care of, reduced to almost nothing as a person and of course that is why he tries to kill himself by slicing his neck open on that sharp piece of wood when he's at the stream. These events give you more insight into why Griffith chose to become Femto; he went from this great military leader that was beloved by all his troops to a feeble person who had to be taken care of like a child. This definitely added to his despair as his dream would be lost forever if he didn't choose to become part of the god hand, there was no alternative. 

When it comes to adaptations the biggest thing fans are going to gripe about is what was changed or what was left out. In the case of LOTR there was no choice but to alter the story as it was impossible to tell it all without putting out more movies which would have been overkill and probably wouldn't have worked. However Berserk is basically set up like a storyboard in a sense with all the dialog, nothing is narrated over like it would be in a novel. You have the playbook so just follow the damn thing. I would have given the studio credit if they actually changed something that improved the story, but that is not the case here. That isn't to say there isn't something that could be changed to improve on things, I'm sure Miura looks back on what he was writing when he started Berserk and wished he'd have changed something here or there, or approached something a little differently, that's completely normal.
Now I ride with the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night wind
And play by day in the catacombs
I know that light is not for me, save that of the moon
Yet in my new wildness and freedom I welcome the bitterness of alienage
For I know always that I am an outsider...an outsider...stranger in this century...for a time
A stranger among those who are still...men

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #151 on: June 30, 2013, 03:42:00 PM »
Quote
One of the problems with the flashback scenes is that they do a really poor job of showing the audience what really happened. The effect they use is kind of a disjointed dream like visual but unless you know what happens from the manga you are going to be hard pressed to have a clear picture. They could have used a few minutes and showed Guts when he was with Gambino.
Definitely agree, some clarity would have helped this movie a lot. Actually some clarity put anywhere in any of the movies to explain the foggy flashback of the first movie would have helped the trilogy so much. Removing some details is understandable since they have budget constraints and can not add everything. It really in my opinion all comes down to three scenes. The childhood scenes, the campfire of dreams, and the sex scene. Adding in all those three would have been enough to make these movies amazing.
Quote
That isn't to say there isn't something that could be changed to improve on things, I'm sure Miura looks back on what he was writing when he started Berserk and wished he'd have changed something here or there, or approached something a little differently, that's completely normal.
We'd have to ask the admins here but I do think in one of the interviews or questionnaires Kentaro was asked if he ever regretted writing something in his past writings of Berserk. He replied that he didn't regret anything he ever wrote...he must be a really confident writer :P Understandable considering the quality. Makes you wonder if he's aware of the idea that he might be the writer of the greatest manga ever? Well for me it is. Haven't read anything that has surpassed its quality. :guts:

Offline Delta Phi

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #152 on: June 30, 2013, 03:54:38 PM »
We'd have to ask the admins here but I do think in one of the interviews or questionnaires Kentaro was asked if he ever regretted writing something in his past writings of Berserk. He replied that he didn't regret anything he ever wrote...

Here you are, from Puella's translations of the Miura letter in this thread:
http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=9513.50

Q5: What portion of the story was the most difficult in terms of making hard decisions about where to take the direction of the series? Any regrets?

No specific part was especially difficult or regrettable to me.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #153 on: June 30, 2013, 05:19:16 PM »
But I also suggested that the sex scene could have helped the past movies if they had added to the sex scene by putting in flashback scenes of childhood Guts in order to explain the killing of his father and the rape. It would have explained why he took risks on the battlefield before he met Griffith and how he didn't care too much about dying.

Would have been too little too late, and would have not affected the failures of the previous movies, which would have remained bad in and of themselves. That scene is meant to be enhanced by our previous knowledge of each character's past/personalities, not to make up for their absence

Removing some details is understandable since they have budget constraints and can not add everything.

Time constraints could be a reason for the removal of certains segments of the story, but not budgetary ones.

It really in my opinion all comes down to three scenes. The childhood scenes, the campfire of dreams, and the sex scene. Adding in all those three would have been enough to make these movies amazing.

You're really far from the truth here. There's no easy fix for those movies (for many reasons, including the fact that the movie format itself is not appropriate for that part of the story).

Offline TheBranded1

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #154 on: June 30, 2013, 05:55:44 PM »
Finally was able to see it. If the guys who made this movies said they were faithful to the manga ,then I guess the only  faithful things were character names and title. In my opinion I think they thought , since fans already know what happens, why show it in that manner. We'll do it our way and it will still be awesome . Most major scenes were butchered horrible. Especially, guts and casca's intimate moment. There was no emotion from either one of them. It was just sex for the hell of it and to make use of the rating if the movie. Skullknight's appearance to guts was exaggerated to me as well, and since it was daytime , I guess This SK only comes at night  or has his own dark field when the sun is up. The rape scene also doesn't show casca as an unwilling victim as she could be. You don't see much desperation and agony in her, most if the time you just see her breast bouncing( hentai anyone). Of corse, Guts attempt at Femto was even more ridiculous . Noticed even Ubik was like "uh?" As if Guts could really do something to " the demon king" .

2/5


Offline Hanma_Baki

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #155 on: July 01, 2013, 07:44:14 PM »
Spoke to some guys that watched it, without having read the manga naturally. They liked it, and they wanted them to continue adapting it. But of course, it was a very shallow kinda "enthusiasm" so to speak. Here I been fan boying over Berserk all these years and beyond their facades of forced reactions - like, say, the same as you´d react to the Spartacus TV-show - I can totally see they´re truly like, "thats it?" and think Im into it just for gore/blood and sex/nudity. Really, I felt like a 3 year old showing my fake smiling parents a half assed drawing. SO FRUSTRATING. :mozgus: :mozgus: :mozgus:

Offline Bender

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #156 on: July 02, 2013, 04:31:18 AM »
I got around to watching it the other day.  I am in the worst of the trilogy camp.  At this point I am just repeating a lot of what others have said but I will just add them to the pile. 

The beginning was a hacked up rush job that barley gave any information.  One thing that bothered me was that I don't think the anger Guts felt in the manga about Griffiths condition really came across well in the movie, and the escape was so short and lame.  No character development between Guts and Casca, Charlotte was just kinda there for no reason except to tell the story about Gaiseric, and what was the deal with the arrows raining down on them as they fled from the army?  They were attacked from the front but never cut off?  Where did those guys go?  I don't get it.  Also the whole "OH NO! They almost kinda shot a horse with an arrow!", but it's ok because the horse will still keep doing what is was doing regardless, is just terrible writing.  These people suck.

Like others have said, the strongest part of the movie was the pre-eclipse/pre-sacrifice section(which isn't saying much).  It seemed to work fairly well but once the sacrifice was made it just went to complete shit again.  The fade to blacks killed any tension or momentum the film had going.  They failed with Voids entrance.  They whole Guts attacking Femto and crap...  :mozgus:  Fuck you Studio 4c.  I paused the movie for a moment and thought about just turning it off at this point.  What a betrayal to the source material.   :judo:  Skull Knights entrance was pretty cool.  It would have been better if we hadn't seen it an hour and twenty minutes earlier, and in the previous two films.  Rickert was just there for no reason, and why did Guts have a I can't believe hes gone moment about him?  I also think Skull Knight finished off Zodd. :badbone:  What is wrong with these guys, they cut all these great scenes with great lines and add their own weird bullshit like that scene with Puck and a bunch of apostles flying in the air with a tentacle monster in the clouds.

1/5 Stars.  Worst of the three.  Too much is wrong with it to list.  If we are lucky these people will give up and maybe a few years down the road others will give Berserk another shot and do it justice. 

I am about to listen to the podcast.  I am looking forward to major ripping on this film, it will make me feel better.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 06:19:45 AM by Bender »

Offline Deci

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #157 on: July 02, 2013, 04:34:07 AM »
Spoke to some guys that watched it, without having read the manga naturally. They liked it, and they wanted them to continue adapting it. But of course, it was a very shallow kinda "enthusiasm" so to speak. Here I been fan boying over Berserk all these years and beyond their facades of forced reactions - like, say, the same as you´d react to the Spartacus TV-show - I can totally see they´re truly like, "thats it?" and think Im into it just for gore/blood and sex/nudity. Really, I felt like a 3 year old showing my fake smiling parents a half assed drawing. SO FRUSTRATING. :mozgus: :mozgus: :mozgus:

Man why'd you do it? Just why?! =P Like I said earlier, I would never under any circumstances let someone use this project as their introduction to the series. It's abhorring.

Offline Hanma_Baki

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #158 on: July 02, 2013, 07:46:30 AM »
^Sure, but even if I had known I dont think I could´ve stopped them. I mean, reading a long blackNwhite boring manga, or save time and watch an amazingly animated film trilogy with a lot of eye candy like sex and violence and blood spraying. Isnt the answere just a matter of course? :schierke:

...Yeah thats probably what most people that even knows its based off a manga think.

The sad thing is that some people actually ask those youtube kids wether its faithful to the manga, and you may guess what answere they get.

Offline Doc

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #159 on: July 13, 2013, 01:56:04 PM »
I didn't really have a problem with Guts' almost-stab against Femto. If they're skipping The Black Swordsman Arc it makes some sense and at least shows some foresight on the writers part. Granted, Guts should've been in excruciating pain getting that close to a God Hand. It was probably one of the few 'additions' from the movies that I approved of. Overall I agree with the consensus here that it was another disjointed and rushed adaptation.

My main gripe was Guts doing absolutely nothing while Griffth was fondling Casca. What was he waiting for? An invitation? And then Guts finally puts 2+2 together and is all 'OH NO U DI'INT!' Yeaaah, the guy just sacrificed you and your pals to the forces of hell, mate, and now looks like a satanic Batman. I don't think he's above a little surprise sex.

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #160 on: July 15, 2013, 07:43:54 PM »
I didn't really have a problem with Guts' almost-stab against Femto. If they're skipping The Black Swordsman Arc it makes some sense and at least shows some foresight on the writers part.

It makes no sense at all. In the Black Swordsman arc, Guts didn't even come close to hurting Femto, and Femto didn't look one bit worried, even when the Dragon Slayer was about to come crashing down upon him. He blew Guts away from him without lifting a finger, and nearly killed him (fortunately, Puck was there to heal the poor guy).

Offline Doc

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #161 on: July 17, 2013, 05:52:46 PM »
It makes no sense at all. In the Black Swordsman arc, Guts didn't even come close to hurting Femto, and Femto didn't look one bit worried, even when the Dragon Slayer was about to come crashing down upon him. He blew Guts away from him without lifting a finger, and nearly killed him (fortunately, Puck was there to heal the poor guy).

As a replacement scene to illustrate both Guts' tenacity and his hopelessness, it more or less gets the job done. Perhaps Femto's expression could have been clearer and not as ambiguous, but that feels nitpicky to me. My immediate reaction was one of Femto toying with Guts. I don't believe he honestly felt threatened at any point. Believe me, these movies have a lot of legitimate faults, but I can live with this deviation.

Offline Maxwell

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #162 on: July 17, 2013, 06:24:21 PM »
As a replacement scene to illustrate both Guts' tenacity and his hopelessness, it more or less gets the job done. Perhaps Femto's expression could have been clearer and not as ambiguous, but that feels nitpicky to me. My immediate reaction was one of Femto toying with Guts. I don't believe he honestly felt threatened at any point. Believe me, these movies have a lot of legitimate faults, but I can live with this deviation.
I honestly think it illustrated the complete opposite, it actually showed hope for Guts. It would've been better if Femto was smirking to Guts but nope, it was just an ugly frown that Femto will probably never show in the entire series. It made it look like Femto was straining to use his powers against Guts and I just think that's retarded. To make it even worse, wasn't one of the God Hand like Slan shocked by it?

Like most people have said, they probably added that scene to kind of replace the scene where Guts tries to attack Femto in volume 3, because if they do continue they probably wont do the Black Swordsman Arc, but they even got that completely wrong.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #163 on: July 24, 2013, 10:32:26 PM »
The thing that annoyed me the most with this movie, is Griffiths last look at Guts, they gave him a simple evil expression, completely changing the depth of the expression that he gives in the Manga. 

It makes Griffith appear more one dimensional, like he was evil all along, where the way I interpret it, is that he wasn't evil until after he became  :femto:. its quite an important scene to change.

Also the whole bit in the Eclipse with guts not being helpless for the whole time  Casa was being raped takes away from the impact of the scene, and removing the build up with the apostles and Casca to. 

Also they didin't include the image of Broken Griffith laughing manically before he tries to off himself, one the most disturbing images from the Manga and original Anime.

Casca bench pressing broken Griffith was funny though.

Offline JoeZeon

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #164 on: July 25, 2013, 03:42:15 AM »
Casca was being raped takes away from the impact of the scene, and removing the build up with the apostles and Casca to. 

I know people like to comment that Casca being or not being raped by the Apostles ratcheted up the suspense and build up, but personally I've never really prescribed to that notion. Casca being raped by Femto was one thing, but having the Apostles gang up on her was a little much for me. I can understand why, but for me it was just over the top. It was actually the only part that I was glad they cut in the whole series.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #165 on: July 25, 2013, 09:42:46 AM »
I know people like to comment that Casca being or not being raped by the Apostles ratcheted up the suspense and build up, but personally I've never really prescribed to that notion. Casca being raped by Femto was one thing, but having the Apostles gang up on her was a little much for me. I can understand why, but for me it was just over the top. It was actually the only part that I was glad they cut in the whole series.

But there's no indication that Casca was raped by the apostles who captured her. However in the manga, after Guts sees all of his comrades dead, the last straw is Casca, unconscious, being toted around like a trophy by one of them (much like the others' remains were by other apostles). Then Guts made a mad dash to save her, only to finally be stopped in his track when Volkov bit his arm. Now this is a pretty desperate scene as Guts is rushing to her, trying to avoid her being impaled (and most likely killed) ignominiously. Then, as he watches powerlessly, the apostle stops. The scene freezes as Femto is born. Guts has to watch it all, him descending, and then actually raping her.

Now the way this series of event is conceived is what builds up the tension and suspense, and dare I say the ultimate horror of it (Guts not being able to save her). And it interlocks with the rest of the event (from Casca and Judo's escape to each of the others' deaths). I don't think it's something one can really disagree with, nor that altering the way it plays out lessens the sequence as a whole.

Offline Walter

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #166 on: July 26, 2013, 12:42:22 AM »
I decided to split the conversation about Casca's rape into a new topic, since it was no longer about the anime.

Enjoy it over here:

http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14024.0
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Doc

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #167 on: July 27, 2013, 10:12:13 AM »
It makes Griffith appear more one dimensional, like he was evil all along, where the way I interpret it, is that he wasn't evil until after he became  :femto:. its quite an important scene to change.

Arguable (about Griffith being evil, not the botched facial expression). Griffith always gave the vibe of a wolf in sheep's clothing, to me. Obviously not "pure evil" (that's literally what he is now) but this was a man who sold his body to the night, buried child soldiers, and committed acts of treason all for his own single-minded ambition. It was only really Guts (and to an extent, Judeau) who knew the real Griffith. Of course, even then, Guts never thought him capable of what transpired at the Eclipse.

Casca most likely wasn't raped by the apostles only brutally molested. The final panel of her (before Femto's birth) is her being groped by claws and tentacles, one of them forcing itself down her throat. But since it all happens off-screen there's no way of saying with absolute certainty. 

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #168 on: July 27, 2013, 07:02:26 PM »
Yeah I know he had those evil tendancies and could be very ruthless, I actually kinda liked that about him up to the eclipse, I was cheering for him when he killed of the nobility who were trying to wipe him out, it was the whole common man opposing the corrupt powers that be, he was a revolutionary who rose up against the corrupt power structures of the time, and he believed in talent and ability over divine rule and class structures.

I felt like the Godhand cleverly manipulated him into making the sacrifice, although he didn't really any other option as he was pretty much completely broken by that point.  It's amazing that he retained some level of sanity after all the torture, and assisted in his escape and tried to save guts from falling from the alter as well.

What he becomes as Femto is truly tragic.

Of course he always had that part of him that was Femto, he had to have an element like that to achieve what he did. It was a necessary part of his character.

But yeah pure Femto is not good.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #169 on: July 27, 2013, 07:06:00 PM »
Yeah I know he had those evil tendancies and could be very ruthless, I actually kinda liked that about him up to the eclipse, I was cheering for him when he killed of the nobility who were trying to wipe him out, it was the whole common man opposing the corrupt powers that be, he was a revolutionary who rose up against the corrupt power structures of the time

They tried to get rid of him because they had recognized that he was trying to overtake them. A pretty natural response and one you'd expect from anybody. And I don't see how the power structures of the time were corrupt either. As for him, he was everything but a revolutionary. He wanted the power for himself, not to give it to the people.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #170 on: July 27, 2013, 07:11:17 PM »
They tried to get rid of him because they had recognized that he was trying to overtake them. A pretty natural response and one you'd expect from anybody. As for him, he was everything but a revolutionary. He wanted the power for himself, not to give it to the people.

Yes but they despised him because he was a commoner above all else, I think he would have made the kingdom a better more just place if he had achieved his goal, I don't think it was totally selfish. From how he treated the band of the hawk with respect for the most part is indication of what kind of ruler he would have been. But we will never know for sure if he would have been a good king anyway.

I don't think he would have been a tyrannical leader, he probably would have made a better place for the common people because he would have had compassion for where they are, because that's were he came from.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #171 on: July 27, 2013, 10:02:41 PM »
Yes but they despised him because he was a commoner above all else

That's an overly simple way to look at things.

I think he would have made the kingdom a better more just place if he had achieved his goal

There's no way to know.

I don't think it was totally selfish.

I'd say it was actually pretty selfish, and in the end he sacrificed everything and everyone for it.

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #172 on: July 27, 2013, 10:24:16 PM »
They tried to get rid of him because they had recognized that he was trying to overtake them. A pretty natural response and one you'd expect from anybody. And I don't see how the power structures of the time were corrupt either. As for him, he was everything but a revolutionary. He wanted the power for himself, not to give it to the people.

I mean corrupt in the sense that the nobles for the most part looked down on the common people, and so I didn't have any sympathy for the ones who got killed by Griffith actions, apart from Adonis of course.

The King himself was a coward who was unfit to rule and fancied his own Daughter, so yeah I think Griffith would have been a better king than him.

That's an overly simple way to look at things.

There's no way to know.

I'd say it was actually pretty selfish, and in the end he sacrificed everything and everyone for it.

A lot of great leaders could be seen as being selfish people, Griffiths intentions were probably mostly selfish, but he still would have created a better world I think. The hawks benefited from following him and were about to becoming nobility until it all went wrong, so although being selfish it would have inadvertently benefited his followers in the process. 

Anyway I was wondering if you guys going to do a podcast review of the second and third films?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #173 on: July 27, 2013, 11:02:02 PM »
I mean corrupt in the sense that the nobles for the most part looked down on the common people, and so I didn't have any sympathy for the ones who got killed by Griffith actions, apart from Adonis of course.

Not having sympathy for them is fine, but they weren't corrupt, nor were the "power structures" as you call them, since those structures were built on nobles being superior to common people.

The hawks benefited from following him and were about to becoming nobility until it all went wrong, so although being selfish it would have inadvertently benefited his followers in the process.

That those of his men who survived benefited from his personal rise to glory can hardly be compared to citizens being ruled upon.

Anyway I was wondering if you guys going to do a podcast review of the second and third films?

We did them already: Movie II | Movie III

Offline Zoddiscute

Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc III: Descent [Review]
« Reply #174 on: July 28, 2013, 05:06:49 PM »
Not having sympathy for them is fine, but they weren't corrupt, nor were the "power structures" as you call them, since those structures were built on nobles being superior to common people.

That those of his men who survived benefited from his personal rise to glory can hardly be compared to citizens being ruled upon.

We did them already: Movie II | Movie III

Yes I think I was probably over romanticising Griffiths intentions and nature earlier, His dream at the end of the day was all about him rising to the top. And what he says about what a friend is to him, yeah pretty grandiose and selfish really. Guts picks up on that when they first battle, when he says something like ' you act so high and mighty, like your above everything, you make me sick!' Having reread the Manga I think I have a better understanding of Griffith now. It's guess its easy to fall under his charms and not see his true nature pre eclipse.

I was surprised in the review no one mentioned how they missed out Griffith's maniacal laugh before he tries to off himself, and when Casca pushes him up and he flails around like a zombie. I guess more minor changes to some of the major ones. Its good you mentioned the Casca Femto kiss as that was so wrong in the film.