Author Topic: What exactly was SK's "plan"?  (Read 6945 times)

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Offline Doc

What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« on: July 20, 2013, 12:56:33 PM »
You would think after waiting centuries to gatecrash the Eclipse, he would've made the most of his big moment. Instead, he makes one attack on Void, which quite literally backfires on him, and makes a beeline straight for Guts & Casca. Why did he give up the ghost so easily? Always struck me as a little off that he never had a Plan B. To answer my own question, perhaps being surrounded by Apostles, as well as the rest of the God Hand, gave him only a small window of opportunity. However, Void is seemingly his arch-nemesis and there was no knowing when or if SK would ever receive that chance again. 

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2013, 01:39:55 PM »
You would think after waiting centuries to gatecrash the Eclipse, he would've made the most of his big moment. Instead, he makes one attack on Void, which quite literally backfires on him, and makes a beeline straight for Guts & Casca. Why did he give up the ghost so easily? Always struck me as a little off that he never had a Plan B.

What makes you think that saving Guts and Casca wasn't actually his main objective?

Void is seemingly his arch-nemesis

That's an assumption.

Offline Doc

Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2013, 03:02:48 PM »
What makes you think that saving Guts and Casca wasn't actually his main objective?

It's possible, but I find it hard to fathom that SK gatecrashed the Eclipse on the off-chance of saving two mortals. 

That's an assumption.

Notice I did say 'seemingly', as SK makes a distinction between Void & the rest of the God Hand in his little exchange with Zodd before the Eclipse, which is further supported by SK taking a stab at him (and him only) when he arrives. There's more than enough to suggest there's some history between these two. Whether it's the fabled Gaiseric/wise-man connection or not.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2013, 10:11:46 PM »
It's possible, but I find it hard to fathom that SK gatecrashed the Eclipse on the off-chance of saving two mortals.

Why? Saving Guts mattered enough to him that he went out of his way to show himself at night a year before to warn him about what was to come. Why do that if it wasn't followed by an earnest attempt to save him? Since it's not like Guts could have survived without his intervention. And since then SK has come to help him numerous times, showing he has a clear interest in him.

Notice I did say 'seemingly', as SK makes a distinction between Void & the rest of the God Hand in his little exchange with Zodd before the Eclipse, which is further supported by SK taking a stab at him (and him only) when he arrives. There's more than enough to suggest there's some history between these two. Whether it's the fabled Gaiseric/wise-man connection or not.

Well that "seemingly being his arch-nemesis" is what I took exception to. He just mentions Void by name while talking to Zodd. I don't think that's indicative of a particular disposition. And he strikes at him on the way to Guts, so what? He's some sort of leader for the God Hand, so it makes sense to go for him, and who's to say it wasn't just the easiest route anyway? He did go for Femto later on when the occasion arose, and he's said more than once that he "opposes the God Hand", with no hint of a special treatment.

I do strongly believe there's a history between the two, but I don't think Void being his "arch-nemesis" is particularly apparent in the story. That notion really all just comes down to the fact he attacks him during the Eclipse, and it's not much of a proof.

Offline Doc

Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2013, 10:50:03 AM »
Why? Saving Guts mattered enough to him that he went out of his way to show himself at night a year before to warn him about what was to come. Why do that if it wasn't followed by an earnest attempt to save him? Since it's not like Guts could have survived without his intervention. And since then SK has come to help him numerous times, showing he has a clear interest in him.

I took it that SK's interest with Guts was incidental to his gatecrashing of the Eclipse. He was on his way to confront the God Hand and Guts happened to be caught up in the tide. Obviously after the events of the Eclipse, and SK realizing he'd blown his chance, he decided to regroup and take Guts under his wing (of sorts) to forge him into an ally against the God Hand. I'm still finding it difficult to grasp that SK had all this planned ahead of time. It's far too convenient for SK to appear exactly when Guts needed him, and Guts for not to have been physically or mentally broken by those events. More plausible if the whole thing happened organically.

Well that "seemingly being his arch-nemesis" is what I took exception to. He just mentions Void by name while talking to Zodd. I don't think that's indicative of a particular disposition. And he strikes at him on the way to Guts, so what?


He singles out Void outside of the Eclipse, he attacks Void during the Eclipse, that lingering shot between the two, but "so what?" That's a rather glib way of studying the artform. As an establishing scene for SK and his grudge with the GH, it suggests a lot. Miura could have easily swapped that line with"I have sworn to strike down the God Hand... etc." SK can still hold Void as an archenemy without compromising his war on the God Hand, they aren't mutually exclusive, especially as one is inherently connected to the other.   

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2013, 11:56:18 AM »
I took it that SK's interest with Guts was incidental to his gatecrashing of the Eclipse.

That's not supported by the fact he went out of his way to warn Guts about what would happen, like I already pointed out to you.

Obviously after the events of the Eclipse, and SK realizing he'd blown his chance, he decided to regroup and take Guts under his wing (of sorts) to forge him into an ally against the God Hand.

See above. SK had started "taking Guts under his wing" a year before. Also, the very fact that he just slashed at Void once on his way to saving Guts and didn't persist leans toward the notion that it wasn't his sole objective. Having lived for a thousand years, you can bet he knew his chances were slim. Not to mention that it was likely not the first time he had attempted such a thing. And finally, for all his prowess he couldn't very well have fought all members of the God Hand at once.

I'm still finding it difficult to grasp that SK had all this planned ahead of time. It's far too convenient for SK to appear exactly when Guts needed him, and Guts for not to have been physically or mentally broken by those events. More plausible if the whole thing happened organically.

It's convenient because that's how you produce effective story-telling. The truth of the matter is that SK had arrived earlier but was delayed by Zodd. And it was a chance he took, presumably like many others. It could have been a failure, Guts could have died already. It's really not that hard to get.

He singles out Void outside of the Eclipse

He quotes one line from him, that's hardly "singling out" as you're making it out to be.

he attacks Void during the Eclipse, that lingering shot between the two, but "so what?" That's a rather glib way of studying the artform.

Is it now? Those are a few panels out of the entire series. They're significant for sure, and suggestive of a history between the two, but they don't establish that Void is his "arch-nemesis". That's all. As a comparison, Guts' encounter with Femto in volume 3 does establish that he's his sworn enemy.

As an establishing scene for SK and his grudge with the GH, it suggests a lot. Miura could have easily swapped that line with"I have sworn to strike down the God Hand... etc."

Swapped what line? His dialogue with Zodd? Do you even remember what he says? "I suppose that this encounter too is, as Void would say, in the flow of the Causality... In that case, I entrust my life to this sword." How is that swappable exactly?

SK can still hold Void as an archenemy without compromising his war on the God Hand, they aren't mutually exclusive, especially as one is inherently connected to the other.

Sure he can. It just so happens that while the Skull Knight has repeatedly stated that he opposes the God Hand, there has never been any clear indication of him feeling that Void is his "arch-nemesis". You know, even if they have the relationship we think they do (Gaiseric/Wiseman), it doesn't mean the Skull Knight necessarily harbors stronger feelings towards Void than he does for the rest of them. It doesn't have to be like it is for Guts. He could very well, after a thousand years, focus more on the danger they pose as a whole. Or maybe he does hate him specifically and consider him his arch-nemesis, it's very possible. It just hasn't been established so far. Simple.

Offline Doc

Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2013, 01:16:11 PM »
I have to apologize, Aaz. I remembered that SK mentioned Void to Zodd in their showdown but as I don't have that volume to hand, in my folly I consulted a (now obviously wanky) scanlation that reads: "I have sworn to strike down Void. This is still foretold by fate... Shall it be here?" So you can see how I got the impression that SK had a particular score to settle at the Eclipse.  :farnese:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2013, 03:27:47 PM »
I have to apologize, Aaz. I remembered that SK mentioned Void to Zodd in their showdown but as I don't have that volume to hand, in my folly I consulted a (now obviously wanky) scanlation that reads: "I have sworn to strike down Void. This is still foretold by fate... Shall it be here?" So you can see how I got the impression that SK had a particular score to settle at the Eclipse.  :farnese:

Ahhh, Ok, well that explains the confusion. Yeah I remember that old mistranslation from way back, one of the many examples of how a bad translation can completely mislead people.

krzykoopa

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2014, 12:15:02 PM »
I actually think his plan was to stop the god hand from making a fifth by crashing the eclipse. That would be a huge blow to the god hand overall its clear that SK knows an idea of the timeline etc. however Zodd being the guardian and them fighting delayed him so upon entering he swipes at void who was closest to him upon entry then is like shit I'm to late but sees that Guts and Casca are still alive so grabs them and leaves because he knows his chance has past but they might increase his chances of striking the god hand again.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2014, 03:49:49 PM »
however Zodd being the guardian

Zodd wasn't "the guardian". Zodd waited there specifically to fight against the Skull Knight, as the ceremony itself didn't interest him. It was a personal choice.

krzykoopa

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2014, 04:09:42 PM »
Zodd wasn't "the guardian". Zodd waited there specifically to fight against the Skull Knight, as the ceremony itself didn't interest him. It was a personal choice.

Not the guardian SK things he was the guardian, Reguardles the fight is what delayed SK and thats what I think about it

Offline Deci

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2014, 01:28:41 AM »
Not the guardian SK things he was the guardian, Reguardles the fight is what delayed SK and thats what I think about it

Zodd was not the guardian and we're never shown what SK thinks, but I'm sure it's not "Zodd's the guardian!". Zodd wanted to fight SK and knew that he would show up for the ceremony so he waited outside for him. SK's intention was to disrupt the ceremony, whether it be saving a single person or killing them all and he succeeded. I don't think there's enough information to think he was attempting anything else.

krzykoopa

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2014, 07:05:09 AM »
Zodd was not the guardian and we're never shown what SK thinks, but I'm sure it's not "Zodd's the guardian!". Zodd wanted to fight SK and knew that he would show up for the ceremony so he waited outside for him. SK's intention was to disrupt the ceremony, whether it be saving a single person or killing them all and he succeeded. I don't think there's enough information to think he was attempting anything else.

SK says when he see's Zodd so your are the gate watcher and Zodd denies it saying he is only there to fight the strong then SK says this too falls into the flow of casualty . Honestly that was not the point of my post related to the original post.

Offline asic

Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 03:58:56 PM »
Bit offtopic and I am sure it has been discussed here countless of times before. Hence why I just throw it here as a quicky, sorry  :serpico:.

Anyways why did Skullknight not slay Zodd? Now they are both brilliant warriors but I feel there is no doubt that Skullknight could make doggy chow out of Zodd if that was his intention. Did SK have that much insight that he knew Zodd would be important to Guts later on and further in the future? Or am I reading into it too much, did Miura simply think they were somewhat equal?

I haven't read the Manga in a while so there are probably something in their discussions that explain this a bit better but I do not have the option to reread it right now.

Offline Walter

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2014, 04:05:27 PM »
Anyways why did Skullknight not slay Zodd? Now they are both brilliant warriors but I feel there is no doubt that Skullknight could make doggy chow out of Zodd if that was his intention.
I think you're underestimating Zodd's abilities. If SK could kill him so easily, then why did Zodd prove such an obstacle for him when he was trying to defend Flora from the apostles? As Zodd said, he was the only one there who could hold him off.
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Offline asic

Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2014, 10:37:05 AM »
Yeah that is true Walter, I guess I am not being fair towards Zodd. Although I'd still give the upper hand to SK but I will reread the fights between them again and see if I am completely delusional  :ganishka:

krzykoopa

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2014, 10:45:17 AM »
Bit offtopic and I am sure it has been discussed here countless of times before. Hence why I just throw it here as a quicky, sorry  :serpico:.

Anyways why did Skullknight not slay Zodd? Now they are both brilliant warriors but I feel there is no doubt that Skullknight could make doggy chow out of Zodd if that was his intention. Did SK have that much insight that he knew Zodd would be important to Guts later on and further in the future? Or am I reading into it too much, did Miura simply think they were somewhat equal?

I haven't read the Manga in a while so there are probably something in their discussions that explain this a bit better but I do not have the option to reread it right now.


This is another reason that makes me think SK was on the clock, He defeats Zodd but doesn't finish him to crash the eclipse party.

Offline CrimsonBehelit216

Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2014, 10:20:31 AM »
Why? Saving Guts mattered enough to him that he went out of his way to show himself at night a year before to warn him about what was to come. Why do that if it wasn't followed by an earnest attempt to save him? Since it's not like Guts could have survived without his intervention. And since then SK has come to help him numerous times, showing he has a clear interest in him.

It seems SK had suspicions Griffith would become the next member of the Godhand, or perhaps knew without a doubt. I wonder why then he didn't try to preemptively kill Griffith before the eclipse, or do you think that he figured he couldn't prevent it from happening no matter how hard he tried?

Offline Delta Phi

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2014, 01:11:58 PM »
I wonder why then he didn't try to preemptively kill Griffith before the eclipse, or do you think that he figured he couldn't prevent it from happening no matter how hard he tried?

SK is very aware of the role of Causality in their world. I think he probably knew that with a large event like this it would be near impossible to assassinate Griffith before or during the Eclipse ceremony Granted, it's not the same thing, but we see how well his later assassination attempt on Femto ends up, plus his attack on Void wasn't particularly successful either. He probably knew the odds were stacked in the God Hand's favor.

Furthermore, he may have been waiting for Griffith to make a choice before he acted, assuming he would be privy to that information outside of the tornado. Or perhaps he showed up hoping to kill Griffith BEFORE he could sacrifice the Falcons but was impeded by none other than Zodd.

And then there's this:

What makes you think that saving Guts and Casca wasn't actually his main objective?

Offline Walter

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Re: What exactly was SK's "plan"?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2014, 12:08:35 AM »
I wonder why then he didn't try to preemptively kill Griffith before the eclipse, or do you think that he figured he couldn't prevent it from happening no matter how hard he tried?

Here's a very recent thread dedicated to this exact topic: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14263.msg227751#msg227751

Please mosey on over there if you'd like to continue the discussion.
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