Author Topic: Guts is the Idea of Evil's Magnum Opus?  (Read 2796 times)

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Offline Doghand

Guts is the Idea of Evil's Magnum Opus?
« on: July 24, 2013, 01:15:59 AM »
Hey Everyone!  :ubik:
I'm new here and this is my first post. I'm completely up to date with the manga and have watched the anime and Golden Age movies, though I appreciate that many of you have been fans of Berserk for way longer than I have. If you can see any holes in this theory or if it has been discussed elsewhere (I did an extensive search before registering to SK and couldn't find anything) then don't hesitate to correct me or send me in the right direction  :)

Guts and the Idea of Evil

Miura's removal of Chapter 83 for reasons of "Too much plot, too quickly," is something that interests me. It implies that all the information is there to deduce Miura's intention for future Berserk storyline, so much so that it was omitted from future reprints. Whether it is or not, I don't know.. but Its always fun to speculate and I hope you enjoy this theory :)

The IoE describes himself as humanities ideal god, that he has responded to human beings need for a reason to suffer. IoE explains that by following this need he controls causality and subtly affects destiny. You could say that humanities ego and suffering is the IoE's life force and that with it he has grown in influence, eventually leading to the birth of the Godhand and apostles. We could possibly say that IoE would want there to be as much ego and suffering in the world as possible. That maybe, not having any specific end game in mind, his only goal is to survive and further reinforce his own life by creating more need for reasons to suffer, which could be why he affects causality. With all of the events in Berserk, ask yourself which character has suffered the most, been emotionally and physically tortured, constantly struggles and has the strongest reason for his suffering.

I believe Guts is IoE's Magnum Opus. His suffering, pain and reason behind them, his determination to push forward is so overwhelming it has created a separate entity within him. Guts hell-hound tells him to do things that would only create more pain, strengthen his ego and desire to do evil. I don't think it is coincidence that Griffith and Guts were so close, A sexually abused, corpse-born orphan given new meaning in life and finding his place, and love, only to have it torn away by his best friend in the most horrific manner possibly imaginable, all for Griffiths own desires. This theory assumes that the Godhand and apostles were created to bring about suffering and evil (They leave a bloody trail of it where-ever they go) that sustains the IoE and therefore the conflict between Guts and Femto / The Godhand, was purposely brought about (maybe with Skull Knight too) for this reason.

So What Does this Mean?

From looking at the timeline, It is possible that IoE has been increasing human pain and suffering (Jut before the eclipse was a 100 year war.. 100 years haha) and is looking to up his game. The corporeal realm is now merged with the world of fantasy which could possibly strengthen IoE's influence on causality allowing him to give his existence more meaning. IoE would be looking to further intensify the feud between Guts and the Godhand, maybe Griffith (Femto) actually has noble intentions with his kingdom of Falconia, maybe he is the savior everyone expects? After all, IoE told him to do as he pleases and maybe Guts conflict will turn the whole world against him? The hell-hound has no regard for innocents or even people Guts cares about, its easy to picture a scenario where IoE possesses Guts as a vessel to intensify the need humans have of him. Guts and the Skull Knight are trapped in their reason, their revenge, which is causality. The SK has been so driven that he has transcended death and still fights which could all be part of a moral message from Miura. That if Guts continues down the path into hell (as Zodd said to SK) he will never achieve his goal and end up like the SK.. But if he somehow defeats his own need for a reason, drops his pain and revenge and "kills" the Hell-hound (Maybe the entity becomes so powerful it separates from Guts and He'l fight it, who knows?) separating himself from the essence of causality, He may be able to defeat the Godhand.

An enlightened Guts? Share your thoughts please :)





Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts is the Idea of Evil's Magnum Opus?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2013, 10:25:06 AM »
Hey Everyone!  :ubik:

Hi and welcome to SK.net!

Miura's removal of Chapter 83 for reasons of "Too much plot, too quickly," is something that interests me.  It implies that all the information is there to deduce Miura's intention for future Berserk storyline

It's episode 83. Also, the reason given was that it revealed too much about the world of Berserk. "Too much plot" is a simplification that is inaccurate and possibly misleading given how you've interpreted it. Anyway, you should keep in mind that it has been removed and therefore anything in it should be taken with a grain of salt.

The IoE describes himself as humanities ideal god, that he has responded to human beings need for a reason to suffer. IoE explains that by following this need he controls causality and subtly affects destiny.

For the sake of clarity, here is exactly what it says (Griffith's dialogue not included):

An ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls. A common consciousness that transcends individuality. Their collective consciousness. Its dark side is this swelling ocean. I was born from these swells as the ego of this world. This world itself is I. The darkness that dwells in every human heart. The Idea of Evil. This is God.

Hell, some call it that. This is just the surface of multiple layers of a whole consciousness. But you know, you know that this place is terribly human. Violence and loneliness, this place is filled with all kinds of blurred negative feelings. It is truly the will that defines human nature.

Humans desired reasons. Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death, reason why their lives were filled with suffering, reasons why their deaths were absurd. They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge.

And I produce those, as it is what I've been brought into existence for. I control fate, obeying the essence of humankind. I weave every man's destiny.


You could say that humanities ego and suffering is the IoE's life force and that with it he has grown in influence, eventually leading to the birth of the Godhand and apostles. We could possibly say that IoE would want there to be as much ego and suffering in the world as possible.

I don't think you're using the word "ego" correctly here. The Idea of Evil says it is the "ego" of the world Griffith sees down there (the exact scope of what that "world" is can be subject to discussion). In this context the word means "self" or "consciousness". It isn't related to "ego" as in "self-importance", nor is that ever mentioned in regard to humanity.

That maybe, not having any specific end game in mind, his only goal is to survive and further reinforce his own life by creating more need for reasons to suffer, which could be why he affects causality.

That's kind of contradictory. Either it has a goal or not. What's certain is that its minions (the God Hand) certainly seem to have a specific plan. Also, I'm not sure it's proper to say that Idea of Evil "affects causality". Causality is just a means for it to influence the world, therefore I would rather say that it affects the world through causality.

With all of the events in Berserk, ask yourself which character has suffered the most, been emotionally and physically tortured, constantly struggles and has the strongest reason for his suffering.

Aren't you being partial here though? Guts is Berserk's main character, so we've seen pretty much all of his life. Sure, it's not been easy. But is it really worse than that of the people we saw at the Tower of Albion for example? Who were sick, starving to death, living in constant fear both of the Holy See and of the heretics? Those nameless people's lives were filled with exactly the kind of dark feelings the Idea of Evil mentioned to Griffith. Who's to evaluate whether they've had an easier time than him? And beyond that, struggling through dire situations isn't the point itself.

Guts is filled with hatred and rage when it comes to the apostles and is haunted by the terrible things he's experienced, but he still goes forward. He has friends, and hope, and doesn't live in constant despair, far from it in fact. His state of mind is rather optimistic and pragmatic. In that regard, he's much better off that the aforementioned nameless suffering people. But that's also because he's an exceptional man of course.

Anyways, even putting that aside, it's not like a single man is likely to make much difference when it comes to mankind's collective consciousness, and that's what the Idea of Evil is about. Humanity as a whole.

I believe Guts is IoE's Magnum Opus. His suffering, pain and reason behind them, his determination to push forward is so overwhelming it has created a separate entity within him. Guts hell-hound tells him to do things that would only create more pain, strengthen his ego and desire to do evil.

The Beast of Darkness is its name. I don't know where "hell-hound" comes from, as it's not a hound nor is from hell. Anyway, there's a big misconception in what you say here. The Beast of Darkness is just a personification of Guts' own dark side, born from the trauma of what he's experienced (the Occultation ceremony and his life as the Black Swordsman after that). Casca was seriously traumatized by those events and we know the result. Guts was traumatized as well, and it manifested in that way.

So let me say that again: the Beast of Darkness isn't a separate entity. It's a psychological manifestation of Guts' trauma. When it talks to him, it's essentially Guts talking to himself (and it shows in Japanese). The darkest part of himself pushing forward. And the Beast of Darkness' goals are rather straightforward as well: it just wants Guts to go kill Griffith. To revel in his revenge, not caring for anything. To fight to the death. The reason it pushes for his friends and especially for Casca's death is because they prevent him from doing that. Guts has put his vengeance aside in order to care for Casca. The Beast of Darkness just can't endure it. And what this shows is something we already know: that while Guts chose Casca over his revenge, deep down he hasn't let go.

Then there's the matter of the Berserk's armor, which certainly hasn't helped things when it comes to Guts keeping his cool, but that's another discussion (and I have extensively and repeatedly posted on the matter).

I don't think it is coincidence that Griffith and Guts were so close, A sexually abused, corpse-born orphan given new meaning in life and finding his place, and love, only to have it torn away by his best friend in the most horrific manner possibly imaginable, all for Griffiths own desires. This theory assumes that the Godhand and apostles were created to bring about suffering and evil (They leave a bloody trail of it where-ever they go) that sustains the IoE and therefore the conflict between Guts and Femto / The Godhand, was purposely brought about (maybe with Skull Knight too) for this reason.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. Guts has had an exceptional life for sure, but the Eclipse was all about Griffith. Griffith's own harsh life, his prodigious rise to glory followed by his quick downfall. It was all orchastrated of course, and Guts played an important part in it, but the goal of that scheme clearly wasn't for Guts to be traumatized, it was for Griffith to become Femto. For the God Hand to be complete.

It could be debated that Guts' survival might have been planned, but at first glance it certainly doesn't seem to have been the case. He and Casca were doomed like their comrades and their eternal suffering should have taken place in the Vortex of Souls had it not been for the Skull Knight's daring intervention. Speaking of which, I imagine Guts would have generated more "dark feelings" had he died as a branded man and been absorbed by the Vortex of Souls than by surviving.

(Jut before the eclipse was a 100 year war.. 100 years haha)

Just for info, since it seems to amuse you: there has actually been a series of conflicts called the Hundred Years' War in the real world, between France and England.

The corporeal realm is now merged with the world of fantasy which could possibly strengthen IoE's influence on causality allowing him to give his existence more meaning.

The merging of the corporeal and astral worlds was brought about by the God Hand, so it's definitely reasonable to assume they have something to gain from it. We already saw a sign that the four of them that were confined to the astral world have been "unleashed" on the world, but we've yet to see how that'll manifest itself. That the Idea of Evil might have a more direct influence on the world is pure speculation at the moment, as is the idea that its existence needs to have more "meaning".

IoE would be looking to further intensify the feud between Guts and the Godhand, maybe Griffith (Femto) actually has noble intentions with his kingdom of Falconia, maybe he is the savior everyone expects?

You're giving Guts way more importance than he has in the eyes of the God Hand. As for Femto, I think it's pretty clear that his intentions are anything but noble, despite the appearances.

maybe Guts conflict will turn the whole world against him?

He could certainly end up in a position where the common folk will not view him as a savior but as a scourge. It's happened before.

its easy to picture a scenario where IoE possesses Guts as a vessel to intensify the need humans have of him.

Lol. No, no I don't think it's easy to picture such a scenario. With all due respect I think it's actually ludicrous.

Guts and the Skull Knight are trapped in their reason, their revenge, which is causality.

You're most likely misinterpreting a line here, regarding your use of the word "reason". Also, given that Guts has put his revenge aside in order to travel to Elfhelm with Casca, it can hardly be said that he's "trapped" in it. And what's that about causality? That line didn't make much sense.

The SK has been so driven that he has transcended death and still fights which could all be part of a moral message from Miura. That if Guts continues down the path into hell (as Zodd said to SK) he will never achieve his goal and end up like the SK.

We don't know much about the Skull Knight. You're getting ahead of yourself here. And Zodd and SK's talk was about Guts wearing the Berserk's armor. It has absolutely nothing to do with achieving one's goal. Nor can you say that the Skull Knight will never achieve his goal, which you haven't even defined (his stated goal is to kill the God Hand, for info).

But if he somehow defeats his own need for a reason, drops his pain and revenge

What? Defeat his need for a reason? Drop his pain? That doesn't mean anything man.

(Maybe the entity becomes so powerful it separates from Guts and He'l fight it, who knows?)

See what I said above about the Beast of Darkness. It's just a personification of Guts' dark side. It's not a separate entity and it has no "power" to speak of outside of Guts' psyche. Beyond that, Guts has relied on those feelings to get through grueling moments before. So getting rid of them completely, assuming that could even be possible, might not be a good idea. It's part of who he is.

separating himself from the essence of causality

Causality is the relation between causes and effects. It's a principle. Not sure what you believe its essence to be, but I'm pretty sure it's not correct. Anyway, I know what you mean: you want Guts to be outside of the reach of the Idea of Evil. Well, Guts has been able to affect events beyond what a normal man could ever since he was branded. He existed in the Interstice between the physical and the astral world. He had a few talks with the Skull Knight regarding that matter. The culmination of this state of being was that he could save Casca during the Incarnation ceremony. But things might be different now that the worlds have merged. We'll see.

Anyway, I think your theory is flawed because of a certain number of misconceptions you have, and I invite you to re-read all those key scenes carefully.