Author Topic: Does Zodd eat humans?  (Read 2611 times)

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Offline Doc

Does Zodd eat humans?
« on: August 18, 2013, 02:23:35 PM »
To my recollection, Zodd has never been shown to have an appetite for human flesh. He'll leave behind bloodbaths and piles of corpses in his wake but there's no sign that he actually devours his prey. Quite ironic given his full name. Obviously, Miura is deliberately distinguishing Zodd from the more ravenous and hedonistic apostles such as the Eclipse participants, by showing that he predominantly cares about the thrill of battle, and now the ambitions of Griffith.  It's also interesting that Zodd appeared to be (self?)nominated as the gatekeeper of the Vortex. Was that partly because he had no interest in the mindless om nom nom of the Eclipse?

Of course, Zodd is by no means an exception to the rule, as so far the Neo Hawks (Grunbeld, Locus, Irvine) appear to follow suit. However, that is largely circumstantial, and furthermore they are fairly new to the party. There's every chance we'll see their darker sides once we explore Falconia, lest we forget these are the bad-guys.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Does Zodd eat humans?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2013, 03:01:46 PM »
It's also interesting that Zodd appeared to be (self?)nominated as the gatekeeper of the Vortex. Was that partly because he had no interest in the mindless om nom nom of the Eclipse?

Zodd was not "nominated" as the gatekeeper of the Eclipse. When the Skull Knight asks him if he's acting as such, he replies that he's been waiting for him specifically, as he knew he'd show up, and is not interested in the ceremony, caring only about fighting strong opponents.

Of course, Zodd is by no means an exception to the rule, as so far the Neo Hawks (Grunbeld, Locus, Irvine) appear to follow suit. However, that is largely circumstantial, and furthermore they are fairly new to the party.

I'd say it's as circumstantial in Zodd's case as it is in the others'. In fact, he's actually shown killing humans by biting them in his apostle form, whereas they aren't.

Anyhow, yeah Griffith's lieutenants seem more civilized overall than the average apostle. But then again, we've seen them eating vegetables.

Offline Master Finn

Re: Does Zodd eat humans?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 02:52:52 AM »
Maybe Apostles don't necessarily need humans to sustain themselves.  I figured it is probably a choice thing, similar to how people choose not to eat meat in real life sort of.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Does Zodd eat humans?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 06:30:17 AM »
Maybe Apostles don't necessarily need humans to sustain themselves.  I figured it is probably a choice thing, similar to how people choose not to eat meat in real life sort of.

That seems pretty obvious.

Offline Nymoath

Re: Does Zodd eat humans?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2013, 03:08:26 PM »
Of course, Zodd is by no means an exception to the rule, as so far the Neo Hawks (Grunbeld, Locus, Irvine) appear to follow suit.

In addition, Rosine and the Egg Apostle. I think it's not that Apostles have to eat human flesh to maintain themselves, but that they have a desire for human flesh. Those apostles who don't eat human are the ones who could conquer the desire for human flesh.

Sorry for my bad English.

Offline Doc

Re: Does Zodd eat humans?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2013, 06:07:18 PM »
For the record, I wasn't insinuating that humans are some kind of dietary requirement for Apostles. It does seem something that's mainly hedonistic and ritualistic for most of them, though.

@Aaz - Thanks for the clarification (re: the gatekeeper).
I beg to differ on the circumstances surrounding Zodd & the Neo Hawks. Zodd was introduced in no uncertain terms, massacring the Hawks without mercy. He was Guts's first taste of the inhuman kind, and I'm sure if Miura had wanted to, he could've included a scene of Zodd chowing down part of his prey, but he deliberately overlooked that, and has continued to in his later appearances. So all evidence so far points to Zodd not being a anthropophagus.  The Neo Hawks, on the other hand, are a deliberate red herring from the start.  The people of Midland are suckered into believing these strange beings are here to save them from Ganishka, completely oblivious to their true nature. Portraying them as man-eaters would run counter to that, and they haven't had anywhere near the same sort of attention as Zodd so far to establish their darker traits.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Does Zodd eat humans?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2013, 10:03:27 PM »
I beg to differ on the circumstances surrounding Zodd & the Neo Hawks. Zodd was introduced in no uncertain terms, massacring the Hawks without mercy. He was Guts's first taste of the inhuman kind, and I'm sure if Miura had wanted to, he could've included a scene of Zodd chowing down part of his prey, but he deliberately overlooked that, and has continued to in his later appearances. So all evidence so far points to Zodd not being a anthropophagus.  The Neo Hawks, on the other hand, are a deliberate red herring from the start.  The people of Midland are suckered into believing these strange beings are here to save them from Ganishka, completely oblivious to their true nature. Portraying them as man-eaters would run counter to that, and they haven't had anywhere near the same sort of attention as Zodd so far to establish their darker traits.

I can't agree with you here. They're pretty obviously more "civilized" than the average apostle, and that's been shown many times since they were introduced. That includes Mule and Sonia's trip through the forest to see Griffith, when they encountered some apostles who tried to eat them before being saved by Grunbeld (with Irvine's assistance). Yes, they're monsters in disguise, but on the topic of eating human meat I just don't see Locus or Irvine being more prone to it than Zodd.

Offline Metal_Bear_Rex

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Re: Does Zodd eat humans?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2013, 11:15:48 PM »
Hey, the apostles probably have some degree of regenerative ability, so maybe when they get hungry they take a chomp out of their forearm and move on. 

Offline Red Dingo

Re: Does Zodd eat humans?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2013, 05:19:19 PM »
I think the human flesh appetite is more of a psychological aspect of the Apostle transformation rather than physiological. Remember the remarks made by Dhaiva when he witnessed to the twistedly touching scene of human's working side-by-side with Apostles to fight Ganishka's Shiva horde. He was surprised because Apostles are normally the outcasts of humanity, the people who went through the sort of the anguish that activates a Beherit. They would be the deformed, the decrepit, and the displaced. People of great moral standing brought low by betrayal, people who are shunned and tormented by their contemporaries, even people who experience darkness and despair. An anguish so terrible that they would sacrifice that which makes them human in order to overcome it (Guts and Casca have demonstrated that the Sacrificed do not need to die to complete the process suggesting the transformation is fueled by the act of choosing to Sacrifice rather than the consumption of the Branded). So for most Apostles, consuming human flesh is their means to reaffirming their identity as something inhuman or beyond by placing themselves a link about humans in the food chain.

Griffith's Neo Hawks are different. They do not seem to need that kind of affirmation. Some might even see themselves as the inhuman protectors of humanity (possibly as super heroes). Why that is probably depends on who they were as humans and the circumstances of their becoming Apostles. Wyald was revealed to be a decrepit old man when his body reverted at death, suggesting that his transformation was motivated by the powerlessness that people would feel, becoming an unfettered Apostle would be the ultimate power trip and goes a long was to explain his sadistic and rapacious hedonism. Meanwhile the Beherit Apostle didn't even sacrifice any humans but something more abstract and his form seems to be affected by that circumstance.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Does Zodd eat humans?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2013, 07:16:49 PM »
Dhaiva

"Dhaiva"? Where does that spelling come from?

I think the human flesh appetite is more of a psychological aspect of the Apostle transformation rather than physiological.

While nothing in the series clearly details what it is like, I have a hard time believing that it could purely be a psychological mean for them to affirm themselves as superior to humans, as opposed to say, a drive brought about by the evil with which they were infused. They don't need it to survive, but seeing how the vast majority of them seems to partake in it and relish it, I'd say it comes bundled with the rest.

An anguish so terrible that they would sacrifice that which makes them human in order to overcome it

Apostles don't sacrifice "that which makes them human". They sacrifice what's most precious to them. That's quite a difference. Like I told you in that other thread, apostles are terribly human in nature, despite and even because of their transformation.

(Guts and Casca have demonstrated that the Sacrificed do not need to die to complete the process suggesting the transformation is fueled by the act of choosing to Sacrifice rather than the consumption of the Branded).

The branding is what is required.

Griffith's Neo Hawks are different. They do not seem to need that kind of affirmation. Some might even see themselves as the inhuman protectors of humanity (possibly as super heroes).

From their dialogue and the story in general I think it's pretty clear that their agenda is not an overly virtuous one. They know who they are serving and why.

Meanwhile the Beherit Apostle didn't even sacrifice any humans but something more abstract and his form seems to be affected by that circumstance.

The Beherit Apostle bore the brand on his own tongue, suggesting that he sacrificed himself as well as the world around him. As for his form, it simply reflects what he aspired to be/do.

Offline Red Dingo

Re: Does Zodd eat humans?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2013, 08:26:52 PM »
While nothing in the series clearly details what is is like, I have a hard time believing that it could purely be a psychological mean for them to affirm themselves as superior to humans, as opposed to say, a drive brought about by the evil with which they were infused. They don't need it to survive, but seeing how the vast majority of them seems to partake in it and relish it, I'd say it comes bundled with the rest.

I consider this essentially one and the same. People can adapt so well to terrible things that they take pleasure in it them even without becoming Apostles. I think Miura would make their taste for human flesh a bit more complicated than Evulz.

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Apostles don't sacrifice "that which makes them human". They sacrifice what's most precious to them. That's quite a difference. Like I told you in that other thread, apostles are terribly human in nature, despite and even because of their transformation.

I meant that what is most precious to them is usually what makes them makes them most connected others, what makes them feel welcome and that is what makes them "human" to others and themselves. Something very meaningful. Either way, Apostles usually see themselves as above normal humans after the process. So they become the predator of herd.

But they are terribly human in nature, which is why I think they have more complicated motives behind their actions rather than just being monstrous.

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The branding is what is required.

That's what I said essentially. The branding is the act of sacrificing made visible in the Interstice.

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From their dialogue and the story in general I think it's pretty clear that their agenda is not an overly virtuous one. They know who they are serving and why.

I never said it was virtuous. I said they do not desire human flesh because they do not see themselves as just predators. I think self perception goes a long way what sort of Apostle you become.

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The Beherit Apostle bore the brand on his own tongue, suggesting that he sacrificed himself as well as the world around him. As for his form, it simply reflects what he aspired to be/do.

Again, that's very different from the normal Apostle deals.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Does Zodd eat humans?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2013, 09:01:13 PM »
I consider this essentially one and the same. People can adapt so well to terrible things that they take pleasure in it them even without becoming Apostles. I think Miura would make their taste for human flesh a bit more complicated than Evulz.

Well it's not the same. And like it or not, apostles are clearly and repeatedly defined as being evil in the story, whereas what you suggest is not really substantiated.

I meant that what is most precious to them is usually what makes them makes them most connected others, what makes them feel welcome and that is what makes them "human" to others and themselves.

I think what you said was simplifying things a bit too much, and I'm always wary of taking shortcuts like that. As for the rest, it comes back to how you define "humanity". "Evil" in Berserk is closely related to the ugly side of the human nature.

But they are terribly human in nature, which is why I think they have more complicated motives behind their actions rather than just being monstrous.

They are monstrous because it is (also) their nature, what they have become. Not an end in and of itself.

The branding is the act of sacrificing made visible in the Interstice.

Hm? The branding is the mark of the sacrifice, what makes it effective. But I don't get you mean by "made visible in the Interstice". The Interstice is where the corporeal and astral worlds meet. It is where branded people exist, a place where astral beings (most notably evil ones) can reach them. They're not the only ones in there though. Apostles also exist in the Interstice for example.

I never said it was virtuous. I said they do not desire human flesh because they do not see themselves as just predators. I think self perception goes a long way what sort of Apostle you become.

We don't know what they desire or not, or how they see themselves (although they certainly see themselves as superior). As for what can influence what sort of an apostle someone becomes... Very simply, I have always thought that different invididuals became different apostles based on their life and personality. On who they are.

Again, that's very different from the normal Apostle deals.

I was just clarifying the facts. But sure, he was a special case. That being said, apostles come in many shapes and forms.