Author Topic: Are the God Hand now physical?  (Read 5356 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Are the God Hand now physical?
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2013, 07:29:48 PM »
What is it that we see happening to Griffith's body during his transformation to Femto?  A diffusion of a physical body, replaced by an incorporeal one?

Sure, something of the sort. It's a supernatural process where he is transformed at his very core, and we actually see it happen in two times (Griffith's body as seen through the closed fist, and his ego falling down towards the bottom of the abyss).

And presumably he's able to interfere with Casca et al cause the Eclipse is an example of an exception to the rule, where the generally incorporeal GH both appear and act as though their forms were physical.  Hence SK making his bid for an attack inside the Eclipse.

Well the occultation ceremony takes place in a special location, somewhere deep enough in the astral world that the God Hand can appear there. That's how it's all possible. And so in a way, as Guts, Casca and the others were brought in the astral world, it could be said that interactions occurred as much with their astral bodies as their physical ones. The same goes for when an apostle ceremony takes place: the apostle-to-be and the future sacrifice are taken to the God Hand's lair, at the bottom of the astral world. The God Hand's limitations aren't about not being able to interact with corporeal beings, since said beings will always have an astral body anyway. It's to manifest themselves under a physical form that is (was?) beyond their capacity.

So though it looks like Griff is only changing physical forms, that's a misunderstanding of the exceptional nature of physical reality inside the Eclipse.

Yup. Although I never thought the change happening there looked purely physical.

I do not believe for a moment that he feels any warmth towards, for example, the people he comforts by showing them phantoms of their departed loved ones.

Actually, when you know the meaning behind what he tells Mule about the afterlife during that scene (and as readers, we do), it's both quite factual and sinister. "A place where they all become one."

Offline Red Dingo

Re: Are the God Hand now physical?
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2013, 07:35:32 PM »
Given what we've seen of them, it might be presumptuous to directly compare it to Falconia, since the imagery is more evocative of the astral world.

The difference between the physical and the astral world has largely been dispersed since they are both now corporeal. Consider this: what sort of physical city with an impossibly large and heavenly castle appears in a flash of light? I'd say that Falconia is just as much an astral domain as those of the other God Hand. It's a fantastic city and a haven for humanity delivered by a Savior. It magically rose from the ground. It is the Kingdom that Griffith dreamed of ruling magnified ten fold. Each image of the God Hand during the world transformation reflects both their aspect and the role they play in the coming Age of Darkness. The role Femto has played thus far has been the Savior. As was stated time and again.

As for the rest of the post, I'll have to concede save on most of your points save the last one:

Quote
And sure, the Beherit Apostle found the Demon Child by chance, but it's quite obvious (if only from the episode's very title) that it was preordained by the one pulling the strings of all these events: The Idea of Evil. Not to mention that the boy is clearly shown being transformed into Femto's new vessel within the "egg", so that he was used (and had quite the role) in the Incarnation ceremony is undeniable. Now, maybe it could have happened in another way, with someone else serving as the vessel. But it didn't, so I don't see why it matters here.

You're probably right but my point is what if the Child is another fish that swims against the currents of causality like his father? What if he is a spanner in the works?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Are the God Hand now physical?
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2013, 07:56:53 PM »
The difference between the physical and the astral world has largely been dispersed since they are both now corporeal.

I don't know about that. The astral world has many layers, and we have not seen enough of Fantasia to know exactly how much of it has been merged with the corporeal world. I mean, have we seen the Vortex of Souls yet? Is it just embodied and frozen in the Ganishka-Tree? What about the Four Kings of the Elemental World? Or powerful spirits like those Schierke calls to her aid in times of need? We've seen that they can still be summoned, and so that they are likely not freely roaming the world like unicorns do.

Each image of the God Hand during the world transformation reflects both their aspect and the role they play in the coming Age of Darkness.

I'd say it simply represents them. Slan at the far end of a tunnel of carnal love. Conrad in a sea of plagued rats. Ubik in a realm of madness. And Void... as a huge brain. That makes it a bit early to assert any form of certitude as far as I'm concerned.

You're probably right but my point is what if the Child is another fish that swims against the currents of causality like his father? What if he is a spanner in the works?

Oh but I am absolutely convinced, and have always been since I read volume 22, that he would be one. In fact it is quite clear to me that he will prove to be Griffith's downfall.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Are the God Hand now physical?
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2013, 09:04:24 PM »
I don't know about that. The astral world has many layers, and we have not seen enough of Fantasia to know exactly how much of it has been merged with the corporeal world. I mean, have we seen the Vortex of Souls yet? Is it just embodied and frozen in the Ganishka-Tree? What about the Four Kings of the Elemental World? Or powerful spirits like those Schierke calls to her aid in times of need? We've seen that they can still be summoned, and so that they are likely not freely roaming the world like unicorns do.

I agree with you here. The way I see it, is that only or mostly, manifestations from the minds of humans are able to be in the physical world. If I'm not wrong, it's explained in the story what is happening at some point : everything coming from legend and dreams of mankind starts to be visible in the real world. So I think it'd make sense if stuff or entity or whatever you want to call it, would not appear in the physical world since well, nobody dreamt it, compared to magic users who know about them since they themselves traveled in different layers of the astral world. All that to say, I think only a portion of the astral world merged. I think Schierke was talking about that when they are in Qliphoth. I don't know if what I said makes sense but well I tried my best.  :slan:

Online Walter

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Re: Are the God Hand now physical?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2013, 11:40:38 PM »
The way I see it, is that only or mostly, manifestations from the minds of humans are able to be in the physical world.
We don't know nearly enough about the world right now to say that for sure, and the God Hand certainly don't fit into that.

If I'm not wrong, it's explained in the story what is happening at some point : everything coming from legend and dreams of mankind starts to be visible in the real world.
The line you're referring to is in Ep 306: Fantasia, I'll quote it along with Puella's changes:

Quote from: Episode 306 translated by Yota/Puella
In the villages, in the cities, in the countries and within civilizations,

Across the centuries and across millennia,

Those things that people thought might exist have been transmitted by word, and developped and refined over generations.

That which people feared and longed for, unable to capture yet unable to fully escape from,

Another half of the world that only existed in people's imaginations is now before their eyes.

But it's not necessarily an all-inclusive description of the change to the world. It's true that legendary creatures did suddenly appear that day. But what else..? We just don't know yet.

There are so many things that could change as a result of the merging that we still have no clue about. Who thought up Falcon wings growing  from the ground? It's still open season for the possibilities, as far as I'm concerned.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Are the God Hand now physical?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2013, 11:56:34 PM »
yes of course, I was mostly trying to work with what we have for the moment since like you said we don't know for sure how everything work out since the merging.