Author Topic: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...  (Read 9975 times)

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Offline OvTheWoods

Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« on: October 12, 2013, 09:19:52 PM »
...had his sword?
Now don't get me wrong i know he would never haven been able to "save" Griffith or even remotely harm the God hand, but if his sword was not broken during the fight with Wyald do you think he would have been able to avoid loosing his arm and eye? or prevent Casca being "broken" so to speak? maybe stave off the apostles long enough for  :SK: to save the day? i would love to hear what you guys think!
Personally i'm a bit on the fence to be honest.

Offline Slime_Beherit

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2013, 09:44:40 PM »
I think things turned out like they were suppose to. Things would have been slightly different if they were written different. If I'm out of line in speculation nation, I is sorry :T

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2013, 10:34:30 PM »
I don't think it would have changed the outcome much. That sword was big for the human world, but it wasn't an apostle killer. Wylad caught it in his teeth and parried it with a log. This isn't to say that Guts couldn't kill an apostle with it, after all I think that he proved against Wylad that he could, but the way he was then, having a slightly more efficient weapon than the one he was able to get his hands on during the Eclipse wouldn't have made up for his lack of experience fighting monsters, his injuries, and the fact that he was completely outnumbered. And even if he did have the sword, it would have broken eventually anyway, either during the eclipse or soon afterward. Just like the short lived one-hander Godot made for him, it wasn't meant to stand up to apostles.

Online Walter

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2013, 11:37:19 PM »
For an answer, see Guts' first few strikes against the pig apostle after the Eclipse, when he was using Godot's custom-made longsword.

Miura made it pretty clear: He needed a weapon that could take down something legendary.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Slime_Beherit

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2013, 01:41:52 AM »
Also it he didn't lose his arm and eye in a battle. Guts having his sword wouldn't have prevented the to severing of his arm.

Offline puppet12ca

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2013, 02:06:01 AM »
For an answer, see Guts' first few strikes against the pig apostle after the Eclipse, when he was using Godot's custom-made longsword.

Miura made it pretty clear: He needed a weapon that could take down something legendary.

maybee slightly different but I really could not see it affecting much also that apostle always looked more like a bulldog to me rather than a pig

Online Walter

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2013, 02:18:50 AM »
maybee slightly different but I really could not see it affecting much
That's what I was saying... The sword wasn't effective against the apostle.

Quote
also that apostle always looked more like a bulldog to me rather than a pig
It's an amalgamation, like most apostles. But because of its tusks and ears, I think it more closely resembles a boar or pig.

Of course it doesn't have a real name, but in the Character and World Guide it's called the "けもの" apostle, meaning beast/animal. Keep in mind, the guide also gives the first apostle we see the splendidly detailed name: Woman Apostle.  :schierke:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2013, 08:33:59 AM »
...had his sword?
Now don't get me wrong i know he would never haven been able to "save" Griffith or even remotely harm the God hand, but if his sword was not broken during the fight with Wyald do you think he would have been able to avoid loosing his arm and eye? or prevent Casca being "broken" so to speak? maybe stave off the apostles long enough for  :SK: to save the day?

He would have inflicted more damage on them, although it would have likely broken eventually, like it did against Wyald. Nevertheless it would have changed how things went down, but it's hard to say how. Guts mostly rolled with the punches on the top of the hand, he struggled until he just fell down. And then after that he didn't fight until he rushed to Casca.

Now, he would certainly have fared better up top had he had his sword, but would have that changed much in the end? The apostles came again and again. Had he been able to stand his ground though, what would it have achieved? Maybe he would still have been there when Femto was born. And what would have happened then? Femto toying with him more directly, while the apostles down below killed off Casca, unhindered by their master's intervention? Not actually a better outcome.

Offline Gray Hawk

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2013, 04:04:30 PM »
That sword wouldn't have made a big difference

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 07:01:24 PM »
He would have inflicted more damage on them, although it would have likely broken eventually, like it did against Wyald. Nevertheless it would have changed how things went down, but it's hard to say how. Guts mostly rolled with the punches on the top of the hand, he struggled until he just fell down. And then after that he didn't fight until he rushed to Casca.

Now, he would certainly have fared better up top had he had his sword, but would have that changed much in the end? The apostles came again and again. Had he been able to stand his ground though, what would it have achieved? Maybe he would still have been there when Femto was born. And what would have happened then? Femto toying with him more directly, while the apostles down below killed off Casca, unhindered by their master's intervention? Not actually a better outcome.

Well put Aaz.  I agree that it probably would've effected something, just not in any way that would have led to a happier outcome.  I don't think it's insignificant that the one thing that guts identified with the most in life (his sword), was absent during what was arguably the most defining moment for it.  It seems like causality was at play to put the one wildcard at the Eclipse at a disadvantage and keep him on the defensive.  It probably would have still ended with SK showing up to intervene, but Aaz may be right on the money with it keeping him in the hand to fight, perhaps even confronting Femto directly.  Interesting idea though, and obviously a deliberate choice by Miura.  We don't see Guts without his sword very often. 

Offline OvTheWoods

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 01:38:05 PM »
We don't see Guts without his sword very often.

Isn't that just blatantly stating the obvious? Guts himself states very clearly that he doesn't feel right without his word by his side.

Offline Rendarg

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 03:45:19 PM »
almost all of the apostles were present at the eclipse, and we know how hard it was even with the Dragonslayer to kill some of them later. Ok he didn't have to fight guys like the Count there, but maybe with his longsword they would have perceived him more as a threat and would have been much more aggressive and not like "oh that guy has a broken horn, what can he possibly.. aahh my eyes!" I think they might have really killed him, if they had thought of him as a real threat and not just their next snack

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 04:17:01 PM »
Isn't that just blatantly stating the obvious? Guts himself states very clearly that he doesn't feel right without his word by his side.

I imagine you meant 'sword.'  And it should be obvious, but you'd be surprised the stuff that's overlooked when you've gotten overly familiar with it. 

almost all of the apostles were present at the eclipse, and we know how hard it was even with the Dragonslayer to kill some of them later. Ok he didn't have to fight guys like the Count there, but maybe with his longsword they would have perceived him more as a threat and would have been much more aggressive and not like "oh that guy has a broken horn, what can he possibly.. aahh my eyes!" I think they might have really killed him, if they had thought of him as a real threat and not just their next snack


Good point. But it didn't really feel like they were playing with their food on top of the Hand.  They were chomping and clawing away like they did with the rest of the Hawks.


Offline Heisenberg

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 11:18:27 PM »
Had he actually managed to kill one, they would have taken on a very different tone. Look how the early apostles, like the Count, Snake Baron, Rosine, etc, reacted when they realized that they were actually in danger of being killed by a human.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2013, 07:47:51 AM »
Had he actually managed to kill one, they would have taken on a very different tone.

I don't think that's a valid point. More than one apostle was severely wounded and probably killed during the Eclipse. Like ApostleBob said, they were doing their best to kill Guts right from the start. His survival was not because they were going easy on him.

Offline Master Finn

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2013, 01:13:08 PM »
almost all of the apostles were present at the eclipse, and we know how hard it was even with the Dragonslayer to kill some of them later. Ok he didn't have to fight guys like the Count there, but maybe with his longsword they would have perceived him more as a threat and would have been much more aggressive and not like "oh that guy has a broken horn, what can he possibly.. aahh my eyes!" I think they might have really killed him, if they had thought of him as a real threat and not just their next snack

What makes you think that they didn't perceive Guts as a threat at all?  The guy was killing multiple apostles with just a broken horn, he avoided death numerous times and was evading many deathly blows.  It's clear they saw him as a big threat since Guts was the only one being attacked by a gang of them whereas most of the Hawks were killed or eaten by only one apostle.  Hell, even Slan a God Hand, noticed that he was different from the other soldiers.  Also, why would just having his sword with him make him seen by apostles as a huge threat?  Even with the dragon slayer many apostles would have still been attempting to kill him as many have been trying to do ever since he became the black swordsman.  Just having the sword is only part of what makes Guts such a dangerous adversary, the main part of it is his skills, relentlessness, and his will to survive.

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2013, 01:39:43 PM »
I think the whole discussion is a little weird.

Guts didn't have his sword with him because this was an event where for thematic and practical story purposes, he was supposed to be disempowered and vulnerable.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2013, 03:37:50 PM »
I don't think that's a valid point. More than one apostle was severely wounded and probably killed during the Eclipse. Like ApostleBob said, they were doing their best to kill Guts right from the start. His survival was not because they were going easy on him.
I find that somewhat hard to believe. Yes they were being stabbed left and right by the horn and the sword that he managed to get his hands on, but I don't think that constitutes much of a serious injury. Apostles get sliced up worse than that without panicking. Remember Guts sliced one outside Flora's mansion from shoulder to waist, and it's reaction was just kind of "hey, that hurt a little!" (not an exact quote). The worst I recall Guts doing was impaling one through the chest with the horn. On the other hand, look at how Rosine, The Count, and the Snake Baron reacted when it became clear that a human was about to kill them. In almost every case it was a mixture of incredulous shock, outrage, and panic. Clearly a human killing them is not something that they ever even considered possible. "Dragons are dragons because humans can't kill them" (quoting Darkhorse, so my apologies of it's inaccurate).

I'm not counting something like the Yin-Yang monster that Casca cut in half, which really isn't comparable to any other apostle that Guts has come across.

I could be mistaken of course, I'm not trying to present my opinion here as a fact, rather just my interpretation of the story at the time, which was that Guts was not yet on the level to be taken seriously by that many apostles. Especially without his weapon and being so badly injured. My impression was that they were trying to kill him, but in a sort of toying way, like a cat with a mouse. They didn't yet consider him an actual opponent to be fought, just some prey to be screwed around with.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2013, 06:32:56 PM »
I don't think that constitutes much of a serious injury.

Well we sure don't see these guys getting up.



Apostles get sliced up worse than that without panicking. Remember Guts sliced one outside Flora's mansion from shoulder to waist, and it's reaction was just kind of "hey, that hurt a little!" (not an exact quote).

No, the apostle's reaction was this:



Then, because Guts was quite weakened, he comments on how Guts must be hurting as he transforms into his apostle form (so obviously not feeling as reassured as you're making it out to be).

I'm not counting something like the Yin-Yang monster that Casca cut in half, which really isn't comparable to any other apostle that Guts has come across.

It's comparable to plenty of apostles he's met at the Occultation ceremony, like the one he kills in the opening scene of volume 1 as far as strength or resilience goes. Apostles are like normal people, they widely differ. Some are strong, some are weak, some are big, some are small, etc. The Slug Count or Rochine were not run-of-the-mill apostles, which is why they were presented in the way that they were. So it really isn't very pertinent to compare different apostles in different situations like that. The story has mostly focused on Guts' encounters with extraordinary foes, but at the Eclipse almost all apostles were gathered, and they are not all equal.

My impression was that they were trying to kill him, but in a sort of toying way, like a cat with a mouse.

But that's not what's shown in the story. You don't see them toying with him at all, rather they're just all clearly trying to eat him. I understand what you mean, it's just not supported by what we see in the manga.

Offline Rendarg

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2013, 06:58:15 PM »
hm yeah but wasn't it like only 3-4 guys hunting him at the same time, from all the, i don't know, maybe a hundred apostles that are gathered there.
At the end they all gang up on him, and it's decided in a matter of seconds.
Maybe if he would have been running around with a sword, cutting down more of them, they would have ganged up on him sooner. Maybe too soon, and then he would have been killed before Femto shows up

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2013, 07:20:18 PM »
Maybe if he would have been running around with a sword, cutting down more of them, they would have ganged up on him sooner. Maybe too soon, and then he would have been killed before Femto shows up

They actually are ganging up on him from the very beginning in the manga...

Offline Rendarg

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 07:28:01 PM »
but you know what i mean, right after Gaston dies, all of the apostle show up for Guts, and it's game over

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2013, 07:35:57 PM »
but you know what i mean, right after Gaston dies, all of the apostle show up for Guts, and it's game over

Many apostles are there, but that's not the point. Guts was eventually caught while trying to save Casca.

Offline Draculoid

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2013, 07:48:00 PM »
This thread is pretty dumb...why are people splitting so many hairs?! He may have been able to injure or kill a few more than if you didn't have his sword, BUT THAT IS IT! We can't really speculate if the events would would have unfolded that much more differently because they were done that way on purpose. What are people looking for here, he would have killed all of the apostles, save Casca and escape? NO.  Not get knocked off the hand and be killed earlier? Well that would be shitty. Who cares really. This deserved like one response if that....

I mean I appreciate that the OP specified "slightly different", but that's just it....it's so slight it isn't worth this much discussion.
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Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2013, 09:50:17 PM »
What are people looking for here

A time killer while we wait for the next episodes? As for me it's fun reading to see you guys talk about it. As for my opinion, I don't think it would have change anything to the outcome other than being here instead of there... he would still be in the eclipse and be about to be killed...