Author Topic: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...  (Read 9712 times)

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Offline Rendarg

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2013, 11:26:47 PM »
Well said i guess. Since i don't watch Breaking Bad like the rest of the community, this discussions here are the only ones left for me to take part in, hehe
And it just made me read volume 13 again, so in some way there is a good reason behind everything

Offline KnightZel

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2013, 04:57:29 AM »
The answer to the OP's question from me would be a most definite no. Guts is amazingly resilient and incredibly motivated when he wants to get something done but at the moment taking into consideration his distress and lack of comprehension of what was happening is what's really important. I highly doubt he'd be after Griffith if he knew all his friends were being slaughtered below, and even when he found out what happened he still couldn't really do anything. The apostles were new beings he'd never encountered, and many of them wouldn't die with the conventional means he fought with during the golden age arc. So unless the sword was Dragon Slayer, hell even if it were, he probably still couldn't do anything about it. So that end, the sword would change nothing, maybe lose both his arms to them if they knew he could wield that monstrosity of a sword actually if you think about it.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2013, 06:24:53 AM »
The apostles were new beings he'd never encountered

Uhh... He'd just fought and defeated Wyald moments before.

So unless the sword was Dragon Slayer, hell even if it were, he probably still couldn't do anything about it. So that end, the sword would change nothing, maybe lose both his arms to them if they knew he could wield that monstrosity of a sword actually if you think about it.

I don't think you're doing Guts justice here considering how the events played out in the manga, where he started out with a broken dagger.

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2013, 04:25:37 PM »
Well we sure don't see these guys getting up.



No, the apostle's reaction was this:



Then, because Guts was quite weakened, he comments on how Guts must be hurting as he transforms into his apostle form (so obviously not feeling as reassured as you're making it out to be).

It's comparable to plenty of apostles he's met at the Occultation ceremony, like the one he kills in the opening scene of volume 1 as far as strength or resilience goes. Apostles are like normal people, they widely differ. Some are strong, some are weak, some are big, some are small, etc. The Slug Count or Rochine were not run-of-the-mill apostles, which is why they were presented in the way that they were. So it really isn't very pertinent to compare different apostles in different situations like that. The story has mostly focused on Guts' encounters with extraordinary foes, but at the Eclipse almost all apostles were gathered, and they are not all equal.

But that's not what's shown in the story. You don't see them toying with him at all, rather they're just all clearly trying to eat him. I understand what you mean, it's just not supported by what we see in the manga.

I should clarify two things. When I said "they," I was specifically talking about the apostles that Guts wasn't able to dispatch with the horn, since they are the one most relevant to the context of this particular topic. Like I said in my last post, I wasn't including things like the Yin-Yang apostle, or the ones that Guts was able to take out like they were nothing with the horn.

The other thing I want to clear up is what I meant by toying with him. I didn't mean to imply that they weren't trying to kill him, but rather, that's all they were trying to do. Their goal was to eat him, and they were only "trying" hard enough to do that. Now what I meant in my original post, was that had Guts started killing higher end apostles, like the Count or Rosine, then the rest would have likely taken him more seriously, and started fighting for their lives, rather than just for a meal. Maybe they would make more of an effort to protect themselves, rather than just rushing in blindly to snag a meal, or more of them might have swarmed him together and tried to overwhelm him, rather than coming a few at a time.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2013, 05:07:05 PM »
I should clarify two things. When I said "they," I was specifically talking about the apostles that Guts wasn't able to dispatch with the horn, since they are the one most relevant to the context of this particular topic. Like I said in my last post, I wasn't including things like the Yin-Yang apostle, or the ones that Guts was able to take out like they were nothing with the horn.

Oh, so you were saying apostles can sustain whatever injuries without a problem except for the ones who can't? Give me a break. You weren't talking specifically about anything, you're just coming back on what you said because I proved you wrong. It's no big deal really, but please don't bullshit me.

The other thing I want to clear up is what I meant by toying with him. I didn't mean to imply that they weren't trying to kill him, but rather, that's all they were trying to do. Their goal was to eat him, and they were only "trying" hard enough to do that.

Are you serious here? They were trying to kill him, period. Not "toying" with him. Ok so moving past that, now you're essentially saying they weren't fighting with the intensity of desperation to protect their lives, but really that's beside the point. Supernatural monsters outnumbering a scared man hundreds to one, yeah sure they're not going to be desperate. Even if he'd had a sword and armor they wouldn't have been. Even after a few died (see how it actually went down in the manga). The bottom line is that when I read the manga, it doesn't look like the apostles are holding back or only giving it a half-assed shot. Not at all.

Now what I meant in my original post, was that had Guts started killing higher end apostles, like the Count or Rosine, then the rest would have likely taken him more seriously, and started fighting for their lives, rather than just for a meal. Maybe they would make more of an effort to protect themselves, rather than just rushing in blindly to snag a meal, or more of them might have swarmed him together and tried to overwhelm him, rather than coming a few at a time.

First off, I wouldn't start classifying apostles as being high end or not as it's a pretty delicate distinction to make, and one that apostles themselves might very well not be able to do in the context of the story. Had Rochine been killed/severely wounded instead of another one, would the horde of guys waiting in line had been particularly bothered? I wouldn't bet on it. Again, in a case where they're dozens, hundreds of monsters against one man, why feel threatened? Do you think they would have actually gone into a defensive strategy? Protecting themselves and attacking warily? It's just preposterous. If anything, his resistance would have probably angered them and driven them to be even more agressive. Not unlike what happened in the story. Not all apostles are warriors or skilled in battle, and few are prone to strategy.

And really, if you check the panels, they're swarming him as best as they can right from the start. They're all so big and yet you see them crammed on top of each other as they try to get him, so I don't see how they could have done much better than that.

Offline Heisenberg

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2013, 06:20:10 PM »
Oh, so you were saying apostles can sustain whatever injuries without a problem except for the ones who can't? Give me a break. You weren't talking specifically about anything, you're just coming back on what you said because I proved you wrong. It's no big deal really, but please don't bullshit me.
You didn't prove anything, and that's not what I was doing. Before you even responded to me about the specifics of the eclipse, I said I wasn't including the lower tier monsters like the Yin-Yang thing. Scroll back up, how can you say that I'm backtracking based on your "proof" when I'm simply reiterating something I already said before you responded to me?

Quote
The bottom line is that when I read the manga, it doesn't look like the apostles are holding back or only giving it a half-assed shot. Not at all.
Except you're gliding over the fact that they are clearly giving a less impressive display against Guts than they do later on when he fights them one on one. Again, you can point out that the apostles he fought during the Black Swordsman arc were stronger and more impressive than the fodder he was blitzing through during the eclipse, but again, I already acknowledged that. I'd also like to point out the bemused little smiles half of them have when going after Guts or other random Hawks, that only go away after getting a Horn to the face.

You're acting like there are only two modes that they can have in battle, playing around, or kill mode, which simply isn't true. They can be trying in all honesty to kill Guts, and still not be taking him as seriously as they would (and do when they encounter him again later) if they considered him to be capable of hurting/evading them from the beginning.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 06:49:32 PM by Heisenberg »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2013, 08:33:13 PM »
You didn't prove anything, and that's not what I was doing. Before you even responded to me about the specifics of the eclipse, I said I wasn't including the lower tier monsters like the Yin-Yang thing. Scroll back up, how can you say that I'm backtracking based on your "proof" when I'm simply reiterating something I already said before you responded to me?

This started when you said "Had he actually managed to kill one, they would have taken on a very different tone." I replied "More than one apostle was severely wounded and probably killed during the Eclipse." You then responded with "I find that somewhat hard to believe. Yes they were being stabbed left and right by the horn and the sword that he managed to get his hands on, but I don't think that constitutes much of a serious injury." Then after your tirade and an erroneous exemple (the apostle at Flora's mansion) you said "I'm not counting something like the Yin-Yang monster that Casca cut in half, which really isn't comparable to any other apostle that Guts has come across." And so I posted pictures of other apostles, which you promptly dismissed.

So in short you're just inventing categories of apostles based on nothing but your desire for your ideas to be somehow valid as a means to back up said ideas. It's not working, sorry. There's no ground to support what you say. Could you point out to me on the panels the apostles that are "serious" compared to those that aren't? Come on, this is completely arbitrary.

Except you're gliding over the fact that they are clearly giving a less impressive display against Guts than they do later on when he fights them one on one.

Which ones did he fight one on one? Which ones showed a less impressive display, and compared to what other display exactly? You're missing the point, as always. I've already gone through the trouble of explaining you that you can't just compare all apostles as if they were equal in all things. Some are stronger than others, and then there's the context of the fight to take into consideration.

Again, you can point out that the apostles he fought during the Black Swordsman arc were stronger and more impressive than the fodder he was blitzing through during the eclipse, but again, I already acknowledged that.

Then why do you reiterate your point as if you hadn't acknowledged it?

I'd also like to point out the bemused little smiles half of them have when going after Guts or other random Hawks, that only go away after getting a Horn to the face.

You don't see any of them wearing a "bemused little smile" in the scenes where they rush to get Guts. And mostly after the branding they just gang up on the humans and tear them to pieces.

You're acting like there are only two modes that they can have in battle, playing around, or kill mode, which simply isn't true. They can be trying in all honesty to kill Guts, and still not be taking him as seriously as they would (and do when they encounter him again later) if they considered him to be capable of hurting/evading them from the beginning.

They don't have "modes" as they're not robots, and you don't have a point. You're playing on words because you don't want to drop the idea that they were "toying" with Guts (or whatever watered down version of this you're now advocating) when nothing in the manga hints at it in any way. And actually, even as the Black Swordsman the first reaction apostles have to Guts is not usually one of dread and tenseness, so it's not like just having his sword would fundamentally change their original approach. Nor would killing/hurting one of them (which was what you first said), as we can see in the manga.

The one pertinent thing to point out about the fight and that you haven't mentioned is that they were intent on eating him and not just killing him. But that still doesn't mean they were going easy on him or taking him less seriously than if he had had his sword.

Offline Walter

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2013, 01:45:18 AM »
I call for summary arguments...
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Offline Heisenberg

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2013, 07:21:58 AM »
This started when you said "Had he actually managed to kill one, they would have taken on a very different tone." I replied "More than one apostle was severely wounded and probably killed during the Eclipse." You then responded with "I find that somewhat hard to believe. Yes they were being stabbed left and right by the horn and the sword that he managed to get his hands on, but I don't think that constitutes much of a serious injury." Then after your tirade and an erroneous exemple (the apostle at Flora's mansion) you said "I'm not counting something like the Yin-Yang monster that Casca cut in half, which really isn't comparable to any other apostle that Guts has come across." And so I posted pictures of other apostles, which you promptly dismissed.

So in short you're just inventing categories of apostles based on nothing but your desire for your ideas to be somehow valid as a means to back up said ideas. It's not working, sorry. There's no ground to support what you say. Could you point out to me on the panels the apostles that are "serious" compared to those that aren't? Come on, this is completely arbitrary.

Which ones did he fight one on one? Which ones showed a less impressive display, and compared to what other display exactly? You're missing the point, as always. I've already gone through the trouble of explaining you that you can't just compare all apostles as if they were equal in all things. Some are stronger than others, and then there's the context of the fight to take into consideration.

Then why do you reiterate your point as if you hadn't acknowledged it?

You don't see any of them wearing a "bemused little smile" in the scenes where they rush to get Guts. And mostly after the branding they just gang up on the humans and tear them to pieces.

They don't have "modes" as they're not robots, and you don't have a point. You're playing on words because you don't want to drop the idea that they were "toying" with Guts (or whatever watered down version of this you're now advocating) when nothing in the manga hints at it in any way. And actually, even as the Black Swordsman the first reaction apostles have to Guts is not usually one of dread and tenseness, so it's not like just having his sword would fundamentally change their original approach. Nor would killing/hurting one of them (which was what you first said), as we can see in the manga.

The one pertinent thing to point out about the fight and that you haven't mentioned is that they were intent on eating him and not just killing him. But that still doesn't mean they were going easy on him or taking him less seriously than if he had had his sword.

Forget it, I'm not going to argue in circles. You're either missing my point or I'm explaining it poorly, and I feel as though your responses are somewhat insulting. This clearly isn't going anywhere. Just suffice it to say that I continue to disagree with a few of your points, but not so much that it's worth bickering over.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 09:29:04 AM by Heisenberg »

Offline krzykoopa

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2014, 10:20:48 PM »
I have found this entire thread very entertaining. Any post that references apostles getting stabbed/pictures made me laugh out loud
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Offline Doc

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2014, 10:30:46 AM »
It would have only prolonged the inevitable. Don't really need to expound on why, as it's already been covered.

My biggest 'What If?' pertaining to the Eclipse is what would've happened if SK had turned up a little earlier? We have the potential for a sane Casca, no demonspawn, Guts in one piece, and heck maybe even the possibility of Judeau surviving. Now that would've been a very different story indeed (understatement). Yes I know, 'everything is bound within the flow of causality' etc. etc., but what might have been, eh?

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2014, 11:48:43 AM »
My biggest 'What If?' pertaining to the Eclipse is what would've happened if SK had turned up a little earlier? We have the potential for a sane Casca, no demonspawn, Guts in one piece, and heck maybe even the possibility of Judeau surviving. Now that would've been a very different story indeed (understatement). Yes I know, 'everything is bound within the flow of causality' etc. etc., but what might have been, eh?

I believe that what led to SK being able to save both Guts and Casca was because of where they were situated during Femto's birth. Being In the middle of the apostle swarm probably made them easier to distinguish. If SK had arrived earlier during the ceremony I don't think he'd be able to spot Guts amidst the chaos, therefore perhaps none would have been saved.

Offline DragonSlayerGilver

Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2014, 07:52:43 PM »
Sword would've probably broke during his battles.

Offline Gurifisu

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Re: Would the eclipse have turned out slightly different if Guts...
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2014, 05:05:38 PM »
I don't think even current Guts could have saved Casca.  If he was successful enough at fighting the apostle horde then I think the God Hand would have intervened.
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