Author Topic: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?  (Read 4243 times)

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Offline Leovath

Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« on: April 01, 2014, 09:02:21 PM »
Hello Everyone ! First of all, I have to tell you that I'm from France. Our community forum is dead, so I decided to register on SK.net. I very apologies about the mistakes I'll make in every single posts. Oh and, in France, we still are at volume 36 :o) Obviously, I haven't the english volumes... I'm going to do my best for the quotations.


I recapitulate what we know : The legend of Gaiseric : about 1000 years ago.
                                                 Occultation ceremonies : every 216 years. Mr. Miura said in the artbook that " God Hand " is full of members. Femto is the last.
                                                Idea of Evil created the five members of " God Hand " to act in the Astral world and nearly the physical world ( He can act with the apostles ).
                                                Especially Griffith that everyone in the physical world was waiting for.

For Finish, and that's the most important in what i'm trying to explain : Humans was here before Idea. Idea was created by the humans deseperate beliefs.Idea creates every beliefs food by a lot of humans. ( Elves, troll, dragon, The White Falcon - Griffith - .... ).We all know that.

Now, imagine that Gaiseric was here BEFORE Idea. 1080 years ago. He conquered the whole continent of the futur Midland. Many years after, the city he created fell in debauchery and pleasures. And in my theory, it's the critical point. People began to search reasons for pain, sadness, life, death... Everything is explain in chapter 83. Idea was born of these beliefs, and began to created the " God Hand " to interact with the physcial and astral world. First occultation was made by Void, like Miura said in the Artbook.

It's very difficult to speak about Berserk in english... It's not like indicate the way to tourists haha.

Gaiseric is the responsible of the birth of Idea. It's just I want to say in fact.... For The 4 or 5 angels who came for punishing Gaiseric, I don't really have explanations, but I don't think that it was " God Hand ". I'm not sure, but, I opt for the Gods of Daiba's religion. Vayu, Durga; etc... They maybe are a link with Durga and Skull Knight after all, don't forget that the Berseker Armor belonged to him. If it's not, maybe the 4 angels are the 4 Gods Kings that Schierke summons for his magic.

Thanks you a lot for your patience. I'm sure that I did a lot of english mistakes. Apologies. If you don't understand a part, I'll try to explain you with an other post :) Thanks you a lot and long life to Berserk !
                                                 


Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2014, 09:43:53 PM »
Hi Leovath, and welcome to our community!

Here is my response to your theory. The short version is that no, the Skull Knight did not create the five members of the God Hand.

Mr. Miura said in the artbook that " God Hand " is full of members. Femto is the last.

You don't need the artbook to know that... It's right there in the manga.

Idea of Evil created the five members of " God Hand " to act in the Astral world and nearly the physical world ( He can act with the apostles ).

The Idea of Evil's reach extends beyond just the members of the God Hand or the apostles. Remember that its primary tool is the manipulation of events through the principle of causality.

Especially Griffith that everyone in the physical world was waiting for.

I take it you're referring to the fact the dream of the Falcon of Light, that a lot of people had, foretold his return.

Humans was here before Idea. Idea was created by the humans deseperate beliefs.Idea creates every beliefs food by a lot of humans. ( Elves, troll, dragon, The White Falcon - Griffith - .... ).We all know that.

I'm sorry, but "Idea creates every beliefs food by a lot of humans." makes absolutely no sense. I have no idea what you're trying to say. The Idea of Evil was created by Man, that we do know. Keep in mind our knowledge about it is limited though, and most of the more precise parts come from episode 83, which was removed from the story and therefore cannot be said to be completely canon. However, to claim that the Idea of Evil created elves (or trolls or dragons) is utterly groundless. It does not fit with what we know of the world.

For the sake of clarity, here is what the Idea of Evil has to say about itself in the aforementioned episode:

An ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls. A common consciousness that transcends individuality. Their collective consciousness. Its dark side is this swelling ocean. I was born from these swells as the ego of this world. This world itself is I. The darkness that dwells in every human heart. The Idea of Evil. This is God.

Hell, some call it that. This is just the surface of multiple layers of a whole consciousness. But you know, you know that this place is terribly human. Violence and loneliness, this place is filled with all kinds of blurred negative feelings. It is truly the will that defines human nature.

Humans desired reasons. Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death, reason why their lives were filled with suffering, reasons why their deaths were absurd. They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge.

And I produce those, as it is what I've been brought into existence for. I control fate, obeying the essence of humankind. I weave every man's destiny.


Now, imagine that Gaiseric was here BEFORE Idea. 1080 years ago.

You're making a very basic mistake here: assuming that the Idea of Evil was born at the same time as the first member of the God Hand. That is really unlikely to be the case, especially considering the means it has of interacting with the world (causality, as mentioned above). In order to set the pieces for the first member of the God Hand to come to be, it must have plotted and toiled for years and years. It could have easily been thousands of years. Either way, there's no indication of it whatsoever so you just can't base yourself on that assumption.

He conquered the whole continent of the futur Midland.

Midland is not a continent, it's a kingdom. Gaiseric conquered a huge empire, and after his demise it was divided, like it had been before. The kingdom of Midland is a mere remnant of it.

Many years after, the city he created fell in debauchery and pleasures. And in my theory, it's the critical point. People began to search reasons for pain, sadness, life, death... Everything is explain in chapter 83. Idea was born of these beliefs, and began to created the " God Hand " to interact with the physcial and astral world.

You're taking a shortcut that doesn't make sense. See what I said above. Rather, you should ask yourself this: don't you find it odd that a man could unite an entire continent under one banner, rising so fast to power, and then have it all crumble under his feet in a single night? First off, that tale is just that: a tale. We don't know how reliable it is. Second, if that story is reminiscent of anything, it's of Griffith's own life story. And that brings me to this: these kinds of events don't happen by chance. The events that led to the birth of the first member of the God Hand were likely planned a long time in advance by none other than the Idea of Evil, that had become sentient long before that.

Gaiseric is the responsible of the birth of Idea.

I'm afraid I must answer by the negative. I really don't think Gaiseric was by himself responsible for the birth of the Idea of Evil.

For The 4 or 5 angels who came for punishing Gaiseric, I don't really have explanations, but I don't think that it was " God Hand ". I'm not sure, but, I opt for the Gods of Daiba's religion. Vayu, Durga; etc... They maybe are a link with Durga and Skull Knight after all, don't forget that the Berseker Armor belonged to him. If it's not, maybe the 4 angels are the 4 Gods Kings that Schierke summons for his magic.

Like I said above, that tale is not reliable. There are problems with it and so we can't really use it as solid ground to establish a theory. Anyway, you seem to be mistaken about the references Daiba invokes. Those are just different names for things we already know of (Daiba equates the Od of the Berserk's armor to that of Durga, and Vāyu is the god of the winds, so a natural fit for the wind elementals Serpico uses). As for the 4 kings of the elemental world, so far they've only ever been invoked to protect against astral creatures. It's a protective spell, not an attack, and it doesn't affect physical beings (like humans), much less inanimate objects like a city. Furthermore, I really don't see how or why they'd work in favor of the Idea of Evil. That again seems to go directly about what we know of the world of Berserk so far.

Offline Leovath

Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2014, 10:07:31 PM »
Haha, so the answer is : we don't know yet :p

Offline Walter

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Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2014, 10:25:54 PM »
Haha, so the answer is : we don't know yet :p

 It's one of, if not THE greatest mystery of the series. But right now, there are simply too many variables. People here have hypothesized on this issue for almost 15 years and reached no true conclusion. If you're interested in different ideas, you can do a simple search. I'm sure there are dozens if you use the search string "Gaiseric 1000 years."

More recently, we did talk about the more popular ideas as part of our three-part Skull Knight podcasts (that ran from Episode 4-6).
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Leovath

Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2014, 10:38:48 PM »
Okay ! Thanks you to edit and correct my mistakes. I swear to progress in english. I'm going to read that right now !

Offline RanShi

Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2014, 12:50:03 PM »
I can't help to wonder whether this is an elaborate april fools joke  :ganishka:

But, speaking of Skull Knight and Void:
Volume 18, Conviction Arc, Birth Ceremony Chapter, Fierce Believer
Quoting Mozgus:
"It's said that a sage once imprisoned in this tower by Supreme King Gaiseric...continued to proclaim the sins of the king to God, in the midst of every possible torture, until in time an angel was made to descend. Surely this holy ground has miraculous virtue. It must also fill worship with power."

You could make the conclusion that, if Skull Knight  :SK: is Gaiseric (which is probable) then the sage may have been Void..  :void: who summoned an angel.. so there was only one angel back then.. and if Void was the first member of the Godhand.. who was that angel?

Maybe it was Void who was summoned, and the sage was Ubik or Conrad (hard to imagine tho... and Slan is disqualified instantly as being called a sage wouldn't fit someone the Skull Knight calls the Whore Princess of the Uterine Sea). Speculations, of course..

Offline Deci

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Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 10:47:19 PM »
I can't help to wonder whether this is an elaborate april fools joke  :ganishka:

But, speaking of Skull Knight and Void:
Volume 18, Conviction Arc, Birth Ceremony Chapter, Fierce Believer
Quoting Mozgus:
"It's said that a sage once imprisoned in this tower by Supreme King Gaiseric...continued to proclaim the sins of the king to God, in the midst of every possible torture, until in time an angel was made to descend. Surely this holy ground has miraculous virtue. It must also fill worship with power."

You could make the conclusion that, if Skull Knight  :SK: is Gaiseric (which is probable) then the sage may have been Void..  :void: who summoned an angel.. so there was only one angel back then.. and if Void was the first member of the Godhand.. who was that angel?

Maybe it was Void who was summoned, and the sage was Ubik or Conrad (hard to imagine tho... and Slan is disqualified instantly as being called a sage wouldn't fit someone the Skull Knight calls the Whore Princess of the Uterine Sea). Speculations, of course..

You're assuming that history was preserved perfectly in that little tale Mozgus spoke of. Perhaps the "angel that descended" was the sage. Or perhaps it was the Idea of Evil itself? Surely there's at least some grains of truth there, but I don't think we should assume it's completely accurate.

Offline Walter

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Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2014, 12:53:56 AM »
You could make the conclusion that, if Skull Knight  :SK: is Gaiseric (which is probable) then the sage may have been Void..  :void: who summoned an angel.. so there was only one angel back then.. and if Void was the first member of the Godhand.. who was that angel?

Yes, Void as the Sage is another popular theory. As for the angel, the God Hand are referred to as Guardian Angels in volume 3. And as Deci said, the scripture can't be relied on with much accuracy. I've always felt the Holy See added in the part about this being in retribution for perceived sins. It was likely an occultation. The bare bones takeaway is that something supernatural happened to the king/kingdom, likely coinciding with its destruction.

Perhaps the "angel that descended" was the sage. Or perhaps it was the Idea of Evil itself?

The Idea of Evil, manifestation of the dark side of human subconscious desires, descending into the physical world? That doesn't make any sense at all.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Vodnak

Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2014, 02:54:55 AM »
The Idea of Evil, manifestation of the dark side of human subconscious desires, descending into the physical world? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Not to change the subject, but IoE came about because humanity desired a reason for their suffering. Right?

Offline RanShi

Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2014, 06:12:00 AM »
Yeah, it would be hard to believe that the Idea of Evil itself would descend... but then again, think about it. If Void was the first member of the godhand (at least in this cycle), then what did his ceremony look like? Just an empty godhand and "the talk" with the Idea of Evil? No apostles either I guess, hmm.. this is interesting, but off-topic so I'll just leave it there I guess.

Offline Walter

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Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2014, 09:47:40 AM »
Not to change the subject, but IoE came about because humanity desired a reason for their suffering. Right?

Yes. What of it? That's not what's in question. My point was describing the conditions for its birth, and thus the nature of the Idea of Evil's existence. It isn't tied to the physical world in any way.

"An ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls
A common consciousness that transcends individuality
Their collective consciousness
Its dark side is this swelling ocean
I was born from these swells
As the ego of this world"

Or just read Aaz' post a few lines up where he quotes the whole thing. (Guess you skipped this?)
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Vodnak

Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2014, 08:01:12 AM »
Yes. What of it? That's not what's in question. My point was describing the conditions for its birth, and thus the nature of the Idea of Evil's existence. It isn't tied to the physical world in any way.

"An ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls
A common consciousness that transcends individuality
Their collective consciousness
Its dark side is this swelling ocean
I was born from these swells
As the ego of this world"

Or just read Aaz' post a few lines up where he quotes the whole thing. (Guess you skipped this?)

I suppose I did overlook Aaz' comment. But I was never questioning your point. I am getting ready to follow up the previous post I made with another question, also irrelevant to the thread.

If the collective consciousness of humanity changed to a brighter way of thinking, would it not undo IoE, for lack of a better way to put it?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2014, 08:19:20 AM »
If the collective consciousness of humanity changed to a brighter way of thinking, would it not undo IoE, for lack of a better way to put it?

That's not how it works. The human heart will always have a dark side, comprised of various negative emotions. That's just how people are. Besides, since the Idea of Evil is itself a conscious being with an agenda (and a vast amount of power over humanity), "undoing" it just doesn't seem very feasible, at least in that way. That being said, it should again be noted that episode 83 was removed from the story and is therefore not written in stone.

Offline krzykoopa

Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2014, 08:49:29 AM »
I suppose I did overlook Aaz' comment. But I was never questioning your point. I am getting ready to follow up the previous post I made with another question, also irrelevant to the thread.

If the collective consciousness of humanity changed to a brighter way of thinking, would it not undo IoE, for lack of a better way to put it?

Lets say the answer is simply yes, how would that happen? All at once every person in the world purges all evil from their heart? or is it majority? Either way how would you propose that happening? I am curious  :ubik:
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Offline Vodnak

Re: Did Skull knight create the five members of the God Hand?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2014, 10:45:39 AM »
Lets say the answer is simply yes, how would that happen? All at once every person in the world purges all evil from their heart? or is it majority? Either way how would you propose that happening? I am curious  :ubik:

I am more curious to know where you got the idea that I was proposing anything? That question I asked, was geared towards achieving a better understanding of how the IoE worked.