Author Topic: Did Farnese get through to Casca?  (Read 7542 times)

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Offline Heavenly Maiden

Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« on: April 02, 2014, 06:58:37 PM »
I was just re-reading some berserk and for some reason I realized I barely skimmed over episodes 287=288 I can't remember why exactly I did not fully read these (I think I was more interested in finding something else out for some reason) and I got to say these scenes where Farnese lashes out at Casca are pretty intense. So much going on here. Farnese has been holding a candle for Guts for a while and this is (as far as I know) the first time she has lashed out at Casca over her behavior toward Guts and shown any tangible jealousy toward her.

But my real question here is, do you think Farnese's out burst got through to Casca at all? Miura is so subtle when it comes to portraying people and their reactions and it is impossible to know what gets through to Casca and what she understands in her state. But Farnese's outburst was so raw and emotion filled I was wondering if Casca understood at all why it was she was acting that way beyond maybe the fact that Casca dumped water on her Farnese.  Look at the panels Farnese looks fed up and at the end of her rope on page 5, but the scene on page 8 in particular is the most interesting because it directly deals with Casca's reaction, then Farnese's reaction on page 9.

What do you guys make of this whole exchange? Did Casca grasp what was going on here?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2014, 07:22:56 PM »
What do you guys make of this whole exchange? Did Casca grasp what was going on here?

Given the scene and what Casca does afterwards, I don't think she understood the source of Farnese' anguish, no. In her current state, Casca really understands very little.

Offline Heavenly Maiden

Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2014, 10:54:28 PM »
then what was the point of this scene? Was it really just to show the reader that Farnese is jealous and some what resentful of Guts feeling for Casca? I got the impression there was more to the scene then that and, Miura is always putting double meaning into all his interactions and just showing Farnese jealous seems too simplistic. I was hoping that this was maybe the first steps of getting Casca to stop being so difficult with Guts by being confronted by it by someone she trusts like Farnese. I mean shouldn't something happen to change Casca's attitude toward Guts before reaching elfhelm?

Offline Walter

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2014, 11:14:00 PM »
The scene does a few things, but it's all in service of Farnese's complicated feelings for Guts. She voices her frustration with Guts' devotion to someone she perceives as a lost cause, someone who can't accept or reciprocate his intense feelings. It also provides a moment for Casca to display some empathy, since she clearly didn't understand what caused Farnese to cry, mistaking it for the splashing instead of emotional turmoil. Topping all of this off, Serpico hears the whole scene--further realizing that his role at Farnese's side is growing more and more distant.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2014, 04:13:09 AM »
Topping all of this off, Serpico hears the whole scene--further realizing that his role at Farnese's side is growing more and more distant.

I know this is a bit topic deriving but do you think could happen because of that? talknig about Serpico here...

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 07:41:56 AM »
then what was the point of this scene? Was it really just to show the reader that Farnese is jealous and some what resentful of Guts feeling for Casca?

See what Walter said. Beyond that, you'll notice that this whole episode serves as somewhat of a recap of the character relationships within Guts' group.

I was hoping that this was maybe the first steps of getting Casca to stop being so difficult with Guts by being confronted by it by someone she trusts like Farnese. I mean shouldn't something happen to change Casca's attitude toward Guts before reaching elfhelm?

Are you serious? Casca's distrust of Guts goes along with her distrust of men in general. That's because she was raped by Femto, an experience that was extremely traumatic to her (that means she did not enjoy it). Her attitude will only change when she regains herself, a process that can only occur... in Elfhelm.

Farnese yelling incoherently at her because she's frustrated by her own feelings has absolutely no chance of achieving anything.

Offline Heavenly Maiden

Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2014, 04:38:36 PM »
The scene does a few things, but it's all in service of Farnese's complicated feelings for Guts. She voices her frustration with Guts' devotion to someone she perceives as a lost cause, someone who can't accept or reciprocate his intense feelings. It also provides a moment for Casca to display some empathy, since she clearly didn't understand what caused Farnese to cry, mistaking it for the splashing instead of emotional turmoil. Topping all of this off, Serpico hears the whole scene--further realizing that his role at Farnese's side is growing more and more distant.

hm, I guess I interpreted this scene as Farnese trying to shake some sense into Casca for how she has been treating Guts. Motivated by her growing affection for Guts and how much anguish he is in over Casca's treatment of him. I saw this scene motivated mostly by Farnese's concern for Guts feelings and peace of mind then her own growing feelings and jealousy. Was this this outburst more about her then it was for Guts feelings? She does call Casca a "cunning bitch" does this imply that Farnese thinks that Casca is being this way on purpose? This makes me wonder if Farnese would react the same way if she was aware the reason Casca acts so mean to Guts. Would it matter or do you think she would still have the same reaction to Casca if she knew the whole, or would she make excuses for Guts and still lash out at Casca?

Also how did Serpico hear all this? I must have missed him some how but I thought he was over with Roderick at the time and not near the two of them.

Offline Walter

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2014, 05:31:29 PM »
hm, I guess I interpreted this scene as Farnese trying to shake some sense into Casca for how she has been treating Guts. Motivated by her growing affection for Guts and how much anguish he is in over Casca's treatment of him. I saw this scene motivated mostly by Farnese's concern for Guts feelings and peace of mind then her own growing feelings and jealousy. Was this this outburst more about her then it was for Guts feelings?

I think I explained it pretty well in my previous post. She is frustrated that Guts, who she has feelings for, invests his emotions into a person who can't or won't return them. Deep down though, the root problem isn't her watching out for Guts, but rather WHY WON'T HE LOOK AT MEEEE.

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She does call Casca a "cunning bitch" does this imply that Farnese thinks that Casca is being this way on purpose?

She doesn't call Casca a bitch. She calls her cruel (ずるい). Your translation is an exaggeration of the line, like many scanlations tend to do for whatever reason... Here's our unofficial one: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=8106.0, or you can get Dark Horse's volume. Either are better than scanlations, which value speed over quality.

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This makes me wonder if Farnese would react the same way if she was aware the reason Casca acts so mean to Guts. Would it matter or do you think she would still have the same reaction to Casca if she knew the whole, or would she make excuses for Guts and still lash out at Casca?

Knowing Farnese, I'm pretty sure she would side with Guts.

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Also how did Serpico hear all this? I must have missed him some how but I thought he was over with Roderick at the time and not near the two of them.

It's subtle, but you see his cloak twice. Look at the scene closely, there's a panel earlier when she drops to her knees, and another panel at the end of the scene where you can see him leaving towels just outside the door, implying he'd been listening to the exchange.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2014, 07:57:42 PM »
She does call Casca a "cunning bitch"

Uhhh no. A "cunning bitch", really? From Farnese to Casca? Come on, that's ridiculous. Like Walter said, you should do yourself a favor and read a correct (or at least decent) translation of the story. And support the author in the process.

This kind of stuff only serves to create misconceptions about the story. And that's not even a difficult line.

Offline Patou244

Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2014, 09:41:26 PM »
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Are you serious? Casca's distrust of Guts goes along with her distrust of men in general. That's because she was raped by Femto, an experience that was extremely traumatic to her (that means she did not enjoy it). Her attitude will only change when she regains herself, a process that can only occur... in Elfhelm.

That is kind of disapointing really. I know Casca has a good reason to have an aversion to Guts but that still does not make her attitude toward him when he has done so much for him and destroyed his body for her sake any less hard to see. I kind of hoped something might happen between Guts and Casca between getting to the elf King to lessen the tension. Guts deserves a tiny bit of pay off for all he has done and if she could just at least get to the point where she does not snarl at him when he is close to her it would go along way I think to having a positive outcome with the King of the flower storm. All this time I have been hoping that something will happen to lessen the hostility between them. But I guess Miura has stuck to his guns that Casca should hate him till she gets "cured." I was hoping for a scenario where Guts could demestrate that he means her no harm, like a repeat of the cave incident during the Golden Age where she realized Guts does care for people when he took care of her, if not maybe on an instinctual level in her state. But I guess that is impossiable until she gets cured. 

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She doesn't call Casca a bitch. She calls her cruel (ずるい). Your translation is an exaggeration of the line, like many scanlations tend to do for whatever reason

I am glad this is not true, I hated how she called Casca a bitch and "cunning" and I am glad this was not what she trully said.

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Deep down though, the root problem isn't her watching out for Guts, but rather WHY WON'T HE LOOK AT MEEEE.


 But at any rate I have to say I am disturbed by the implications in this scene. I really do not want to see a rivalry develop between Casca and Farnese and it looks like that is exactly where this is going. It took me a long time to warm up to Guts new group, especially Farnese I was afraid of something like this happening as soon as a another female of similar age to Guts and Casca was introduced, but since Farnese's crush seemed harmless and served to humanize her I paid it no mind. Even though I hate Casca being regressed into a state she is in, I thought it was an interesting angle for Casca to have a relationship with another woman given her past of male camaraderie among the Hawks. Even if  in her present state it is one reminiscent of a child and mother. Also considering Farnese's past for her to take on a care taker role like she did. And I was looking foward to how the two would interact with each other after Casca became herself again and see how someone like her (who is used to having male friends/companions) would interact with a female friend on an equal footing. But now it seems like Miura is introducing a love triangle.

But in a weird way it would be something if Miura is playing up an angle where Farnese acts in a manner toward Casca (when restored) that she acted toward Guts during the Golden Age arc. This scene It sort of reminds me of the way Casca lashed out at Guts after Griffith risked his life for him during their first encounter with Zodd. I think Casca had similar feelings during the early  Golden Age days about Grifith's feelings toward Guts and her frustration over it. That would be one hell of a twist. 

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Knowing Farnese, I'm pretty sure she would side with Guts.

I would really hope not. As a woman I would hope Farnese would empathise with Casca's situation under the circumstances if she was aware of them, regardless of her feelings for Guts. It is not as though she is not aware of how Guts can lose his mind (and what he is capable of while in that state) because of his inner beast.

Casca from Berserk. May 2014 be the year Casca fans get to see a return of her true self, the kickass warrior and leader of the Hawks/Falcons.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2014, 08:22:21 AM »
That is kind of disapointing really.

I don't see how, and especially not now that they're practically there. It's pretty silly to get hung up on this now.

if she could just at least get to the point where she does not snarl at him when he is close to her it would go along way I think to having a positive outcome with the King of the flower storm.

I don't see how that'd go "a long way" towards anything, given that she's out of her mind anyway.

All this time I have been hoping that something will happen to lessen the hostility between them. But I guess Miura has stuck to his guns that Casca should hate him till she gets "cured."

Casca had no problem with Guts when they were reunited and until he assaulted her in volume 23.

I am glad this is not true, I hated how she called Casca a bitch and "cunning" and I am glad this was not what she trully said.

Allow me to remind both you and Heavenly Maiden that our forum rules stipulate that every member here is supposed to be supporting the author by actually purchasing the manga, and that those who don't are liable to have their account deleted. Furthermore, it's a waste of time for us to discuss things if you don't know what you're talking about because you're reading bad translations. It's quite annoying.

But at any rate I have to say I am disturbed by the implications in this scene. I really do not want to see a rivalry develop between Casca and Farnese and it looks like that is exactly where this is going.

This scene doesn't imply anything that wasn't already clear before that. Both Farnese and Schierke have had a crush on Guts for a while. Only Schierke knows she's too young, and she has something with Guts, their team when he uses the full power of the Berserk's armor, that is unique to her, and so she can take comfort in that. Farnese doesn't have such a thing, though, and she wants him as a woman. But those feelings are also mixed with her admiration for what he stands for, and the role he's played in her life. Not unlike what Casca once felt for Griffith. The thing is, it's been quite clear so far that Guts only has eyes for Casca, and Farnese isn't blind to that. She'll have to deal with her feelings sooner or later. As for how Farnese and Casca will get along once Casca's mind is restored, that's another question entirely.

But now it seems like Miura is introducing a love triangle.

Considering that Guts has shown absolutely no interest in Farnese so far, I really wouldn't consider that a fair assessment of the situation. Not to mention that Guts and Casca have a son together.

Offline Heavenly Maiden

Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2014, 03:25:15 PM »
All this time I have been hoping that something will happen to lessen the hostility between them. But I guess Miura has stuck to his guns that Casca should hate him till she gets "cured." I was hoping for a scenario where Guts could demonstrate that he means her no harm, like a repeat of the cave incident during the Golden Age where she realized Guts does care for people when he took care of her, if not maybe on an instinctual level in her state. But I guess that is impossible until she gets cured.

well she is crazy now and she wasn't back then during the cave/fever incident. Casca was capable of adult level evaluation and empathy at this point in the story so she was in a state where she could have changed her opinion of Guts. At this point I guess she can not.

although I would not be against a  scenario like this. I think it was good and even necessary for Farnese and the group to step in and act as a barrier but at the same time I think it gives Guts and Casca an excuse not to tackle the issue between them. Guts sexual assault in volume 23 aside I think Guts and Casca might have been able to to work things out where Casca would not have feared Guts and begun to trust him enough again. I believe this because Casca trusts and depends on Farnese the same way she did Guts at first, and Farnese actually got physical with Casca during the bath scene by grabbing her shoulders (I'm not sure if she actually pushed Casca against her against the wall or if she just grabbed her forcefully) and yelled in her face, and Casca did not act fearfully and start distrusting her. Kind of makes me wonder if things would have worked themselves out after the strangulation incident if Guts had not forced himself on her.

Which kind of makes me wonder, is it only when men act rough with her that Casca reacts fearfully and disdainfully? It seems Casca has more tolerance when it is a woman acting angrily or physically with her, if Farnese had actually gone as far as to hit Casca in that scene would she have started to act as hatefully toward Farnese as she does Guts now?



Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2014, 05:03:27 PM »
Which kind of makes me wonder, is it only when men act rough with her that Casca reacts fearfully and disdainfully? It seems Casca has more tolerance when it is a woman acting angrily or physically with her, if Farnese had actually gone as far as to hit Casca in that scene would she have started to act as hatefully toward Farnese as she does Guts now?

Casca is afraid and wary of all men by default, not just when they rough her up. That's of course due to the fact she was raped by Femto. Remember that upon waking up in volume 13 she was very fearful of Guts (and Rickert) and would only let Erica approach her. That basic fact has no changed. If anything, the fact that Guts managed to get her to trust him during the Conviction arc was an accomplishment in and of itself.

Offline Patou244

Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2014, 06:59:20 PM »
I don't see how, and especially not now that they're practically there. It's pretty silly to get hung up on this now.

It is something I have been hung up on since volume 23. I was hoping that she would eventually come to retrust Guts again over time I thought it would make her healing go smoothly if she got to a point where she at least did not hate him, but yeah since they are almost there now...

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Allow me to remind both you and Heavenly Maiden that our forum rules stipulate that every member here is supposed to be supporting the author by actually purchasing the manga, and that those who don't are liable to have their account deleted. Furthermore, it's a waste of time for us to discuss things if you don't know what you're talking about because you're reading bad translations. It's quite annoying.

I have read the rules and yes I am buying the manga, I'm not just reading fan translations and not supporting the author. If referencing the fan scanalations is not allowed I will be more mindful of that in the future and be sure to go over my volumes first before I post some reference of the dialogue.

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Considering that Guts has shown absolutely no interest in Farnese so far, I really wouldn't consider that a fair assessment of the situation. Not to mention that Guts and Casca have a son together.

A love triangle was probably a poor way to word it since they are not one any more Guts, Griffith, and Casca were. But since Farnese does have feelings of Guts I was afraid that this would create tension and jealousy between the two of them that I am not interested in seeing. But there is no clear way of knowing if that is what Miura will do...though it does seem like he might be setting things up that way.

I believe this because Casca trusts and depends on Farnese the same way she did Guts at first, and Farnese actually got physical with Casca during the bath scene by grabbing her shoulders (I'm not sure if she actually pushed Casca against her against the wall or if she just grabbed her forcefully) and yelled in her face, and Casca did not act fearfully and start distrusting her. Kind of makes me wonder if things would have worked themselves out after the strangulation incident if Guts had not forced himself on her.

Farnese did not get physical with Casca she just grabbed her shoulders, that is hardly a rough act. True if it had been a man that did that it would appear more threatening because men are stronger then women and it would be a more threatening act then if a woman does it to anotherv woman. As to how Casca would have reacted had Farnese had actually hit her? Thats a good question. If it was an isolated incident I think Casca would have cowered or even been emotionally hurt if someone she trusts like Farnese struck her. Casca reacted to Farnese's yelling at her as disaproval at her behavior like a small child would have, I think it would have played out the same way.

Also something to consider is that Casca despising Guts was not due to an isolated incident. It was a series of incidents that escalated into an assault that made Casca hate Guts. Regardless if it's a man or a woman I think if someone treats Casca poorly or roughly consistently over a short span of time she would despise them as much as she hates Guts now. So yeah, if Farnese struck her intially I think she would react like a chatised child. but if Farnese were to continue that behavior and it escalated in intensity over a short span of time I have no doubt Casca would hate Farnese and even physically attack her like Casca did with Guts in volume 23.

Casca from Berserk. May 2014 be the year Casca fans get to see a return of her true self, the kickass warrior and leader of the Hawks/Falcons.

Offline Hot Chic

Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2014, 08:55:30 PM »
whoa, there was a show down between Casca and Farnese doan the line in the manga? What you all described sounds intense. I have not gotten this far yet in the manga, what volume and chapter is this in? Is it out by dark horse yet or do I have to rely on fan scanalations to see this?

I always assumed Farnese had a thing for Guts as early as the episodes where Guts kidnaps her and she sits on top of him naked, but I am still too earlier in my reading to see to much development other then for Farnese to make starry eyes at Guts. It's cute!  :farnese: Truth be told I always wondered what a restored Casca would make of Farnese (and schierke) crush on Guts. Casca is a very jealous person, and I always assumed that she would be the one to confront one of them on this issue. I am amazed Farnese did this. Is this foreshadowing that their is going to be a cat fight/conflict down the road with these two over Guts? I did not think Miura would put something like that into his story...seems kind out of place... :magni:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2014, 09:02:41 PM »
whoa, there was a show down between Casca and Farnese doan the line in the manga?

Not at all. This is a minor event, without consequence.

I have not gotten this far yet in the manga, what volume and chapter is this in? Is it out by dark horse yet or do I have to rely on fan scanalations to see this?

It's in volume 33, chapter of Falconia, episode 288. It has been released by Dark Horse years ago. And if you've read the thread, you know not to talk of scanlations here.

Is this foreshadowing that their is going to be a cat fight/conflict down the road with these two over Guts?

Probably not.

Offline TerrorA

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2014, 09:07:48 PM »
I think it might have done something.......The Next time We see Casca, she's alone with Guts (except for the Elves) for the first time since the incident and isn't going Nuts or growling at him or the like.

It's a small moment, but......yeah.


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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2014, 09:41:02 PM »
I think it might have done something...

I don't think so. You speak of the moment when she feels Ganishka's transformation, which is rather specific. And she's not always growling at Guts or anything like that anyway. Most of the time she ignores him or just disdains him like she would another guy.

Offline Heavenly Maiden

Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2014, 03:46:04 PM »
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Truth be told I always wondered what a restored Casca would make of Farnese (and schierke) crush on Guts. Casca is a very jealous person, and I always assumed that she would be the one to confront one of them on this issue.

I do not think Casca will react well. Casca seemed annoyed with Guts carrying Charlotte down the dungeon steps before the eclipse and she had nothing what so ever to feel threatened over from Guts doing that for her. If she catches wind that Farnese or even schieka have feelings for Guts, even if Guts shows no interest, I can see Casca reacting negatively to it. Casca has always acted strangely insecure when it comes to the people that are important to her and has been shown to to act irrationally at times do to it.


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Is this foreshadowing that their is going to be a cat fight/conflict down the road with these two over Guts? I did not think Miura would put something like that into his story...seems kind out of place...

It seems out of place but I would not put it past Miura to spin some personal drama into the group in the form of girl tension when Casca is back. In fact I think we should expect it. But eventually iy will probably be resolved...

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Not at all. This is a minor event, without consequence

I would not say that. Farnese seems to come to a decision after this incident especially based on her actions episode 331. 



« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 05:07:26 PM by Heavenly Maiden »

Offline Grail

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2014, 06:21:37 PM »
I do not think Casca will react well. Casca seemed annoyed with Guts carrying Charlotte down the dungeon steps before the eclipse and she had nothing what so ever to feel threatened over from Guts doing that for her.
I think "threatened" is a pretty strong word for Casca's reaction. Also, this was a moment that followed Guts having a jealous reaction to Casca's remaining feelings for Griffith - I think that the scene was meant to reflect more on how they're both still getting used to being a couple, not to paint Casca as untrusting or aggressively jealous.

If she catches wind that Farnese or even schieka have feelings for Guts, even if Guts shows no interest, I can see Casca reacting negatively to it.
I feel like Casca might actually feel sympathy for Farnese, since there are a few parallels between Casca's former feelings for Griffith and Farnese's current ones for Guts. In fact, Farnese might bring back some painful memories for Casca, and in that way they might be able to comfort each other (at least, I'm hoping so  :casca: ) And like you mentioned yourself, Guts obviously doesn't have interest in anyone else. Considering all that he's done for her, and all that Casca will have gone through, she won't be concerned about people making googly eyes at her guy. :troll:

Casca has always acted strangely insecure when it comes to the people that are important to her and has been shown to to act irrationally at times do to it.
Can you give an example of how she's acted irrationally? I'm having a tough time figuring out what you're referring to. Casca's a very loyal person, but I can't recall her doing something stupid out of petty jealousy.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 06:42:52 PM by Grail »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did Farnese get through to Casca?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2014, 03:40:16 PM »
Casca seemed annoyed with Guts carrying Charlotte down the dungeon steps before the eclipse

Like Grail has said, I think you're blowing those two panels way out of proportion.

Casca has always acted strangely insecure when it comes to the people that are important to her and has been shown to to act irrationally at times do to it.

I don't think that comment is warranted. Acted strangely insecure? She had reason to be insecure about her relationship with Griffith when Guts entered the picture, since he took her place at his side, and since Griffith was never interested in her as a woman, having instead set his sight on a target (Charlotte) that would help him reach his dream. As for her relationship with Guts, what we saw of it was just a beginning, and I don't think she was particularly insecure about it. The same goes for acting irrationally, I don't see what you're ferring to.

I would not say that. Farnese seems to come to a decision after this incident especially based on her actions episode 331.

I don't see what in episode 331 denotes a decision being taken. On the contrary, she comments on how she's getting more and more confused.