Author Topic: Episode 334  (Read 50356 times)

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Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #125 on: April 16, 2014, 11:31:49 AM »
Haha, you all are expecting for Skullknight to spill the beans? Have you all forgotten that when he made his getaway that he had a stowaway?  :rakshas:

For the uninitiated, here's Griff's original thread on that possibility: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=12073.0

But I'm hoping the certainty in your wording is part of your jest, because it's far from a sure thing.. As an apostle, how would SK not detect him? Aaz postulated maybe Rakshas jumps through the dimensional rift after SK, not needing to cling to him. Sounds more plausible. But I personally maintain he was there, as a Kushan himself, to witness firsthand the end of Ganishka, who he may have had dealings with in the past, given his scene with Silat in volume 27. Something we may learn more about later.

Quote
If anything he will try to spill the beans and then get whacked by Rahkshas!  :casca:

Skull Knight killed by Rakshas...? "I lived for 1,000 years but this blow dart did me in? ARGH!!"
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 12:16:10 PM by Walter »
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Tripas

Re: Episode 334
« Reply #126 on: April 16, 2014, 11:37:20 AM »
And I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but what I'm hoping for once we make it to where Griffith is, is to see the god-hand members in human form with him. I'm not sure if that's likely, but that doesn't change the fact that I'd love to see it  :guts:

Well, the World Transformation caused the physical manifestation of almost all astral creatures, including the God Hand. So I think they don't need human form to walk the earth at this point. Anyways, what would be the point in them to be with Griffith, in Falconia? This would lead us to another big question: what's in God Hand's agenda? Each of them have their own plans, like Griffith? Or Griffith's dream was since the beginning the main focus?

Jokes aside, it's going to be undoubtedly elegant and marvelous, but I do believe we're going to see something very sinister there. Falconia's just too perfect on the outside I feel. We're going to learn a lot in that place, that's for sure.

I see a tendency (including myself) in trying to scratch Falconia's shit. But, what if there isn't anything bad or evil? What if Griffith is actually searching for the greater good? I think the problem with his new world won't be with the 'what' but with the 'how'.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #127 on: April 16, 2014, 11:45:15 AM »

Skull Knight killed by Rakshas...? "I lived for 1,000 years but this blow dart did me in? ARGH!!"

haha if that happens, Theresia will come back and kill Guts.  :serpico:

But to take a guess on the dome thingy, maybe it have an access to a weird part of the astral world... the abyss maybe? Griffith :"hold that thought I'm gonna go check my ocean of souls..."

The throne room there could be really nice too.

Offline Thesaurus_Rex

Re: Episode 334
« Reply #128 on: April 16, 2014, 06:55:56 PM »
It might be a reach, but...

...The dome could be housing our friend The Idea of Evil. Or at least contain some sort of entry into the abyss, as mentioned by someone else. Whatever it is, IT'S IMPORTANT.

I think the symbol at the gate of the 5 wings surrounding the orb also gives credence to this theory.

I didn't even notice the dome until this thread pointed it out. Hopefully it actually IS a structure, and not just the sun/moon with a trick of background imagery.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #129 on: April 16, 2014, 07:12:23 PM »
What are your expectations for that giant, mysterious dome that's in the palace region?

I think few things could be more awesome than the sphere housing a gate to the God Hand's place in the depths of the Astral world. That being said, I don't think Charlotte would enjoy staying there very much, so the palace itself would have to be separate for that to work at all. Besides, as awesome as this idea is, I don't doubt that Miura could top it.

Since it's presumably in the palace area, where Griffith likely makes his throne room, I think it'd be exciting if the dome actually IS the shell of his throne room. Consider, it's the highest and most visible point in the city, and to look up at any time and know that Griffith is in there, watching over everything LIKE A FALCON, would be quite cool and eerie. Plus, imagine the view he'd (and potentially we'd) have of the great city from that perspective.

It would be both awesome and fitting, but the sphere is way too big to just contain the throne room, so I wonder how it'd be arranged.

I also believe this motif, seen around the whole city, is related to the dome/orb.

Yep, I'm certain of it too.

This would lead us to another big question: what's in God Hand's agenda? Each of them have their own plans, like Griffith? Or Griffith's dream was since the beginning the main focus?

They all have their own agenda, but because the Idea of Evil is good at what it does, it turns out their personal agendas all fit together nicely to form a global, common one. Hence why in the process of obtaining his "kingdom", Femto happened to bring his brethren into the world.

I see a tendency (including myself) in trying to scratch Falconia's shit. But, what if there isn't anything bad or evil? What if Griffith is actually searching for the greater good?

We know better. Femto, the Wings of Darkness, fifth member of the God Hand, is not searching for the greater good.

I didn't even notice the dome until this thread pointed it out. Hopefully it actually IS a structure, and not just the sun/moon with a trick of background imagery.

It definitely is a special structure and not the sun or anything like that, you can be sure of it.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #130 on: April 16, 2014, 08:36:21 PM »
Well, the World Transformation caused the physical manifestation of almost all astral creatures, including the God Hand. So I think they don't need human form to walk the earth at this point. Anyways, what would be the point in them to be with Griffith, in Falconia?

I agree. I think they're probably in their own domains at this point, stirring up their own brand of chaos in the world. But given the placement of the world-spiral tree, I imagine there's some special significance to Falconia in the grand scheme.

Quote
I see a tendency (including myself) in trying to scratch Falconia's shit. But, what if there isn't anything bad or evil? What if Griffith is actually searching for the greater good? I think the problem with his new world won't be with the 'what' but with the 'how'.

The demon king that brought hell onto earth is actually trying to do good, huh? Could you unpack that idea?

From Walter's post:Well when I saw this motif, I immediately counted the pairs of wings, 5, like the god hands, or "angels from the legend" (they look more like angel wings than... say Slan's, or Dragons, etc... ), so yay for that theory?
I'm probably reaching...

No, it makes some sense, and I love the possibility of it.  Great observation  :ubik:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline IcePuck

Re: Episode 334
« Reply #131 on: April 16, 2014, 09:34:34 PM »
You mean the archs in the distance on the stairs that go up to the inner wall, also counting the outer wall gate and the one we see in the middle? I think it's a stretch, since that picture is just an overhead shot, and there's most likely at least one other "gate" beyond that inner wall anyway (since there's a second inner wall). Plus you like said it doesn't fit the description of the gates of New Jerusalem anyway.
Fair enough. I still think it works on a symbolic level, but this numerology stuff is secondary, in any case; something I went looking for after noticing that Falconia is similar to what happens in the Book of Revelation.

Quote
Yeah only that's not really how it works. The old city was destroyed, then a new one was built. Then the new one, having become old, was destroyed and the original one was restored, but changed. That's quite a bit more complicated than just "Old city > New city". Furthermore, given that the city's architecture is very clearly of Greco-Roman influence, I'm not sure a comparison to Jerusalem is appropriate.
That's pretty much like Jerusalem- it's trashed and rebuilt multiple times during the timeline of the bible. I initially didn't consider that the connection to Jerusalem would go beyond the fact of Falconia being a great otherworldly city that suddenly appears, but actually, it not might be too far-fetched. Jerusalem would have been under Roman control during Jesus' time, and later again under Christians during the middle ages. This also happens to be the most important religious site in the city:



Also, quotes from Wikipedia:
Quote from: Wikipedia
The Foundation Stone (Hebrew: אבן השתייה, translit. Even haShetiya) or Rock (Arabic: صخرة translit. Sakhrah, Hebrew: סלע translit.: Sela) is the name of the rock at the heart of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. It is also known as the Pierced Stone because it has a small hole on the southeastern corner that enters a cavern beneath the rock, known as the Well of Souls.
Quote
The Well of Souls (Arabic: Bir el- Arweh, Bir el- Arwah or Bir al- Arwah‎) — sometimes translated Pit of Souls, Cave of Spirits, or Well of Spirits — is a partly natural/partly man-made cave located inside the Foundation Stone under the Dome of the Rock shrine in Jerusalem. The name derives from a medieval Islamic legend that at this place the spirits of the dead can be heard awaiting Judgment Day at which time the Ka'aba in Mecca will come here and God's throne will be established on the Stone.
:ubik:

Hardly anything that exactly matches, but c'mon. Can you say the huge sphere in Berserk might very well not be inspired by the Dome of the Rock? It's the same deal with the other things I mentioned- tantalizing similarities, but it's also easy to see that they're not 1-on-1 matches. Still, in my opinion, it goes way beyond only being stuff that's vaguely similar to Berserk.

I'd recommend anyone to just read the Book of Revelation. It's short, only taking 20 or so minutes to read, and it's interesting. This is about the coming of New Jerusalem, for example:

Quote
A New Heaven and a New Earth

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #132 on: April 17, 2014, 08:12:07 AM »
That's pretty much like Jerusalem- it's trashed and rebuilt multiple times during the timeline of the bible.

Cities have been destroyed and rebuilt all over the world and in a ton of stories, but that's not enough. Here you're telling us there's a definite inspiration, so "pretty much like" doesn't cut it. That's why I asked you for precise details and not vague assertions. I'm not trying to pick on you here, but I'm pretty skeptical of the parallels you're drawing, both in nature and in scale.

Jerusalem would have been under Roman control during Jesus' time

Its architecture is what I was talking about, and it doesn't fit.

Hardly anything that exactly matches, but c'mon. Can you say the huge sphere in Berserk might very well not be inspired by the Dome of the Rock?

Can I say that? Sure. I don't think the spherical structure (which, as far as we know, is probably not a dome atop a building) in Falconia is inspired by that particular building. And I don't see any element that could hint at the contrary. Domed buildings are all over the place, and this doesn't look like what's in the manga to me.

It's the same deal with the other things I mentioned- tantalizing similarities, but it's also easy to see that they're not 1-on-1 matches. Still, in my opinion, it goes way beyond only being stuff that's vaguely similar to Berserk.

That's the problem though, so far "being vaguely similar" is all it's been.

Offline Tripas

Re: Episode 334
« Reply #133 on: April 17, 2014, 01:01:52 PM »
The demon king that brought hell onto earth is actually trying to do good, huh? Could you unpack that idea?

If I had to say it in one phrase: Griffith/Femto is trying to do good, but he's doing it in the bad way. I mean, if you want paradise there has to be hell, so paradise can be paradise. I think that's Griffith's philosophy at this point. He is acting like a dictator: he thinks he's doing good when he doesn't.

In general, this can be applied to the IoE and the God Hand. If Miura hasn't changed too much his mind about this concept, IoE's purpose is to fulfil humanity's desires, no matter what. And that's the problem. It would be funny if the IoE reachs to the conclusion that humanity is definitely a danger to itself and takes a "Skynet like" mind. :carcus:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #134 on: April 17, 2014, 01:11:23 PM »
If I had to say it in one phrase: Griffith/Femto is trying to do good

What makes you believe he's trying to do good?

In general, this can be applied to the IoE and the God Hand.

The Idea of Evil's goal is not to achieve goodness in the world.

If Miura hasn't changed too much his mind about this concept, IoE's purpose is to fulfil humanity's desires, no matter what.

That's never been the case.

Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #135 on: April 17, 2014, 01:39:10 PM »


I also believe this motif, seen around the whole city, is related to the dome/orb.

All will be answered soon, so no need to go too hardcore. What do you guys think is inside that huge thing?

Speaking of the motif, when we see Falconia for the first time in episode 307, the design of the motif has 6 pair of wings consistently through various pages of the episode. Yet, now we see 5 pair of wings. May impact Mammon's suggestion of it being tied to the 5 members of the God Hand?
At the end of time, a moment will come when just one man remains. Then the moment will pass. Man will be gone. There will be nothing to show that we were ever here... but stardust.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #136 on: April 17, 2014, 01:47:17 PM »
Speaking of the motif, when we see Falconia for the first time in episode 307, the design of the motif has 6 pair of wings consistently through various pages of the episode. Yet, now we see 5 pair of wings. May impact Mammon's suggestion of it being tied to the 5 members of the God Hand?

Yep, it was mentioned by IcePuck on Page 5. Just another fix Miura's made since its initial depiction in 2009.
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Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #137 on: April 17, 2014, 01:56:15 PM »
Thanks for clarifying and sorry about that, reading back I missed it in Ice Puck's post.
At the end of time, a moment will come when just one man remains. Then the moment will pass. Man will be gone. There will be nothing to show that we were ever here... but stardust.

Offline Tripas

Re: Episode 334
« Reply #138 on: April 17, 2014, 02:03:54 PM »
What makes you believe he's trying to do good?

Well, he never said that his dream was to conquer the world and make people suffer. His dream (at least when he was human, and he said that hadn't changed) was to trascend the rules and the social status imposed by men, to leave that circle. And for that, he wanted to become a king. Of course, he never stated if he was going to be a tyrannic king or not, but I don't think so. The problem is that Griffith is a "end justify the means" person.

That's never been the case.

Maybe I interpreted its conversation with Griffith wrong. The Idea of Evil was born from all negative human feelings, and it is fueled by them, am I right? And its "objective" is to give humans the power they yearn for so deeply (the God Hand and the apostles). This is, in summary, what I understood from their conversation. Anyway, I haven't reread that episode since too long and, given the possibility that Miura finally will decide to leave it out from the canon, I try to not support myself too much in it. So, where am I lost?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #139 on: April 17, 2014, 02:13:26 PM »
Well, he never said that his dream was to conquer the world and make people suffer. His dream (at least when he was human, and he said that hadn't changed) was to trascend the rules and the social status imposed by men, to leave that circle. And for that, he wanted to become a king.

The problem is that you stick to what Griffith wanted as a human while he's not human anymore. Since he is a member of the God Hand, it's very naive to assume that his intentions are good.

Maybe I interpreted its conversation with Griffith wrong. The Idea of Evil was born from all negative human feelings, and it is fueled by them, am I right? And its "objective" is to give humans the power they yearn for so deeply (the God Hand and the apostles). This is, in summary, what I understood from their conversation. Anyway, I haven't reread that episode since too long and, given the possibility that Miura finally will decide to leave it out from the canon, I try to not support myself too much in it. So, where am I lost?

When it says it was born to give humans what they desire, it refers to "reasons for their suffering". It produces those. Gives them reasons for their misery, where before it was a matter of chance. So to say that its purpose is to "fulfil humanity's desires, no matter what" is misleading. It is called the "Idea of Evil" for a reason. But anyway, like you say, that's not part of the canon.

Online Rupert Sinclair

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #140 on: April 17, 2014, 04:39:30 PM »
If I had to say it in one phrase: Griffith/Femto is trying to do good, but he's doing it in the bad way. I mean, if you want paradise there has to be hell, so paradise can be paradise. I think that's Griffith's philosophy at this point. He is acting like a dictator: he thinks he's doing good when he doesn't.

There's a reason the prophesy calls the normal humans following Griffith blind white sheep, I guess it can apply to the readers as well.  Reread the Black Swordsman arc and try and tell me Femto or the God Hand give a shit about doing good.  But hey, Mozgus thought he was doing the lord's work so maybe that guy wasn't so bad after all either!  :troll:  And if you want to see the God Hand/Apostle's version of what paradise is just reread the Lost Children chapter. 

Well, he never said that his dream was to conquer the world and make people suffer. His dream (at least when he was human, and he said that hadn't changed) was to trascend the rules and the social status imposed by men, to leave that circle. And for that, he wanted to become a king. Of course, he never stated if he was going to be a tyrannic king or not, but I don't think so. The problem is that Griffith is a "end justify the means" person.

But we haven't heard him talk about his dream now that he's a member of the God Hand.  As far as him saying that nothing has changed; he is saying that while being carried off by Zodd, so I think that statement should be taken with a grain of salt.  Just like it should be for all of the bad guys warped philosophies that only serve as glorified excuses for the evil they're doing.  Even though Miura plays around with these ideas throughout the series, he keeps it pretty clear who the bad guys and the good guys really are in the long run.  Griffith is the antagonist.  Enough said.  Plus we've only been inside of Falconia for one episode!  Miura has the rest of the series to show us what's really going on, and it's clear if you're reading the series that it's not good.

Offline Tripas

Re: Episode 334
« Reply #141 on: April 17, 2014, 06:54:29 PM »
When it says it was born to give humans what they desire, it refers to "reasons for their suffering". It produces those. Gives them reasons for their misery, where before it was a matter of chance. So to say that its purpose is to "fulfil humanity's desires, no matter what" is misleading. It is called the "Idea of Evil" for a reason. But anyway, like you say, that's not part of the canon.

Ah, right! Yes, I completely lost that. It's funny, because I actually understood everything at the time. Thanks!

There's a reason the prophesy calls the normal humans following Griffith blind white sheep, I guess it can apply to the readers as well.  Reread the Black Swordsman arc and try and tell me Femto or the God Hand give a shit about doing good.  But hey, Mozgus thought he was doing the lord's work so maybe that guy wasn't so bad after all either!  :troll:

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. I don't think Griffith is a good guy. Hell, no! In every arc of the series he makes too much shit (shit that makes you want see him impaled by the Dragonslayer). But, for example I don't see Griffith agreeing with Mozgus in any way.

But we haven't heard him talk about his dream now that he's a member of the God Hand.  As far as him saying that nothing has changed; he is saying that while being carried off by Zodd, so I think that statement should be taken with a grain of salt.  Just like it should be for all of the bad guys warped philosophies that only serve as glorified excuses for the evil they're doing.  Even though Miura plays around with these ideas throughout the series, he keeps it pretty clear who the bad guys and the good guys really are in the long run.  Griffith is the antagonist.  Enough said.  Plus we've only been inside of Falconia for one episode!  Miura has the rest of the series to show us what's really going on, and it's clear if you're reading the series that it's not good.

"Just like it should be for all of the bad guys warped philosophies that only serve as glorified excuses for the evil they're doing" That's it! That's the whole point! Like I said in my previous post, right now Griffith is acting like a dictator. He is capable of anything if something puts in danger his dream. He already did that when he was human, and that's actually what led him becoming a God Hand member. Sure he's the antagonist. But being an antagonist doesn't make you a villain. And I see Miura playing too much with the concept that Griffith is both the Falcon of Light and Darkness. Of course we just have began to see Griffith's rulership, but I don't see too hurried trying to see his role in the series.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #142 on: April 17, 2014, 07:12:09 PM »
But, for example I don't see Griffith agreeing with Mozgus in any way.

Agreeing about what? Mozgus could probably be considered a nice guy compared to Femto, the Wing of Darkness.

Like I said in my previous post, right now Griffith is acting like a dictator. He is capable of anything if something puts in danger his dream. He already did that when he was human, and that's actually what led him becoming a God Hand member. Sure he's the antagonist. But being an antagonist doesn't make you a villain. And I see Miura playing too much with the concept that Griffith is both the Falcon of Light and Darkness. Of course we just have began to see Griffith's rulership, but I don't see too hurried trying to see his role in the series.

Dude, don't you see? The "Falcon of Light" is a sham. Griffith/Femto is a villain. He's just been playing a good guy act so far. The whole thing is a foregone conclusion.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #143 on: April 18, 2014, 12:29:12 AM »

 






if you look on page 18 the panel where they enter the bath house. you see the shape again with the orb, only this time the orb his kinda shaped like an oval. reminds me of some of the broderie Charlotte was doing while imprisoned... "falcon of light" style...

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #144 on: April 18, 2014, 12:41:06 AM »
if you look on page 18 the panel where they enter the bath house. you see the shape again with the orb, only this time the orb his kinda shaped like an oval.

Yep. Doesn't lend any additional info to us though, and its symbolism remains the same.

Quote
reminds me of some of the broderie Charlotte was doing while imprisoned

The fact that it's an oval or the fact that it's covered in feathers?
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Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #145 on: April 18, 2014, 12:48:01 AM »
Yep. Doesn't lend any additional info to us though, and its symbolism remains the same.

The fact that it's an oval or the fact that it's covered in feathers?

a little bit of both. As if it was unconsciously saying to me : "it's griffiiith" in a whisper.  :griffnotevil:

But yes sadly it doesn't add any thing. I felt like pointing it out.

Online Rupert Sinclair

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #146 on: April 18, 2014, 01:29:24 AM »
But being an antagonist doesn't make you a villain.

It usually does...

Anyway, between what Aazealh and I have already said I don't know how else to argue that what Femto and the God Hand are doing isn't for the good of the people.  Good isn't even in their vocabulary.  They ultimately serve the Idea of Evil, who is... evil.  Pretty much the embodiment of evil itself.  Evil = bad.  Not good.  People are no more than squirming little bugs to them, or at best pawns to play a part until they aren't necessary anymore.  We've already seen the kind of pseudo-paradise we get from apostles and the God Hand when Rochine takes Jill into the Misty Valley.  That part of the story alone should raise some red flags for readers when we see how idyllic it is in Falconia, we know better.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #147 on: April 18, 2014, 01:46:52 AM »
People are no more than squirming little bugs to them, or at best pawns to play a part until they aren't necessary anymore.

It certainly doesn't detract from your point, but the God Hand actually use a specific term when referring to humans: lambs (小羊). As in, the kind of thoughtless creature easily led to slaughter  :void: Also implying they're being shepherded. The usage also coincides with the Prophecy of the Falcon of Light/Darkness, which includes blind sheep (people), and sinful sheep (apostles).
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Online Rupert Sinclair

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Re: Episode 334
« Reply #148 on: April 18, 2014, 02:01:30 AM »
It certainly doesn't detract from your point, but the God Hand actually use a specific term when referring to humans: lambs (小羊). As in, the kind of thoughtless creature easily led to slaughter  :void: Also implying they're being shepherded. The usage also coincides with the Prophecy of the Falcon of Light/Darkness, which includes blind sheep (people), and sinful sheep (apostles).

Cool, thanks!  I actually made a reference to the prophecy and blind white sheep in one of my posts earlier and made a joke that it seemed to apply to some readers as well.   :ganishka:

On another note this made me think of something I thought I had noticed before: we don't see any livestock outside of Falconia nor inside (as of yet), and from what little we see of the market there doesn't seem to be any meat.  Of course it could just be that it isn't shown in those particular shots.  Otherwise, Falconia is either a vegan society or there's something sinister afoot indeed.
Edit: Having thought about it, of course it's like that.  Hearding livestock around and into Falconia is probably difficult while being constantly attacked by astral creatures.  I feel dumb now for pointing it out...  :farnese:
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 01:08:16 PM by Rupert Sinclair »

Offline Doc

Re: Episode 334
« Reply #149 on: April 18, 2014, 02:14:25 PM »
Well, it's arguable that Griffith has already enacted his diabolical plan, since the entire world is now subservient to him, or inevitably so. I don't imagine there are very many other safe havens from the astral creatures roaming the land. And even if there were, they wouldn't last when the rest of civilization has gone to hell in a handcart, possessing neither infinite resources or the 'Wing Stones' to survive long-term. Griffith's essentially robbed the people of their freedoms when the worlds were merged, herding them like sheep into his false utopia. Over time, the denizens of Falconia will become completely brainwashed and lose all ability to think for themselves. There's definitely a totalitarian/NWO subtext to the whole concept of Falconia, intended or otherwise. That said, I'm not ruling out anything a little more 'on the nose'.