Author Topic: The God Hand and Falconia  (Read 2761 times)

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Offline kapsi

The God Hand and Falconia
« on: April 20, 2014, 07:19:40 AM »
Now that we see Falconia is a happy place, do you guys think the other Godhands may have issue with that and maybe fight Griffith? After all they seem to be evil, and an "age of darkness" is supposed to be coming.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 09:04:27 AM »
Now that we see Falconia is a happy place, do you guys think the other Godhands may have issue with that and maybe fight Griffith? After all they seem to be evil, and an "age of darkness" is supposed to be coming.

No, no the members of the God Hand are not going to fight among themselves. As you ought to know, Griffith, who is really Femto, is himself a member of the God Hand, and his intentions are not good. What we saw of how Falconia works on the surface hardly means much regarding his actual goals.

Beyond that, seems to me the age's been pretty dark in Midland ever since Femto was born, between the great plague and famine, Ganishka's invasion, and now the world being filled with hostile creatures.

Offline Vodnak

Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 05:33:15 AM »
No, no the members of the God Hand are not going to fight among themselves. As you ought to know, Griffith, who is really Femto, is himself a member of the God Hand, and his intentions are not good. What we saw of how Falconia works on the surface hardly means much regarding his actual goals.

Beyond that, seems to me the age's been pretty dark in Midland ever since Femto was born, between the great plague and famine, Ganishka's invasion, and now the world being filled with hostile creatures.
This really is a little off topic, so I apologize in advance.

This is an argument I heard that I found to be kind of interesting; I don't necessarily agree with it myself, but it got me thinking. Briefly speaking, the basis of the argument is that Griffith is serving the subconscious desires of human beings as the God Hand Femto, because his destiny intertwines with what people wanted, which was a savior so to speak. And thus you have the prophecy about the Hawk of Light, and then Schierke's little counter prophecy about how he's really the guy to usher in the true age of darkness.

I find it interesting but, it seems to really cheapen the story a bit, at least in my own mind, if sacrificing the hawks is downplayed into an event necessary for the greater good, and the chaos that has ensued as a result of the merging of the worlds is just a bad side effect of what was destined to take place. This doesn't seem to be the case at all to me, but I thought that it was worth mentioning at least. I believe I saw this argument in a different forum, it's been quite a while ago so I'm not 100% sure.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 08:49:06 AM »
This really is a little off topic, so I apologize in advance.

It's completely off-topic.

Briefly speaking, the basis of the argument is that Griffith is serving the subconscious desires of human beings as the God Hand Femto, because his destiny intertwines with what people wanted, which was a savior so to speak.

That basis is erroneous is several respects, not the least of which being that mankind's collective consciousness hardly seemed to desire a "savior" before Griffith came along. It's another example of how people misinterpret what's said in episode 83, starting with the Idea of Evil's purpose and how it came to be.

Anyway, it's the other way around: Griffith's life was engineering to go a very specific way, and the world's woes were as well, from the great plague (Conrad's doing) to Ganishka's invasion. The fact Griffith came back and played the role of a savior then was also the result of careful planning, and captivating Midland's people was only part of the goals it achieved (i.e. the advent of Fantasia, bringing the rest of the God Hand into the world). But what matters here in regard to your post is that Griffith didn't become a "savior" because it was a global desire of mankind's collective consciousness (that's in fact quite unlikely), rather the people of Midland were made desperate on purpose so that they would eagerly accept Griffith as their savior.

And thus you have the prophecy about the Hawk of Light, and then Schierke's little counter prophecy about how he's really the guy to usher in the true age of darkness.

There is only one prophecy, that of the Falcon of Darkness. Here it is:

"When the sun will have died five times, a red lake will appear at the west of the city with a name both new and ancient, and it will be the sign that the fifth angel is born. The angel shall be a Falcon of Darkness. Both master of the sinful black sheep and king of the blind white sheep. The one who shall bring an age of darkness upon the world."

The "Falcon of Light" is not referenced in any prophecy, it's a representation of Griffith that appears to people in premonitory dreams. He mostly uses these dreams to influence people and get them to do what he wants.

Offline Doc

Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 09:48:59 AM »
No, no the members of the God Hand are not going to fight among themselves.

Not directly, maybe, but outside of enforcing the IoE's will, the God Hand's only proviso is "do as you will". They're no longer "floating around in their favourite sephira" as Slan put it. This could turn out to be more of a game-changer than meets the eye, since this is the first time they've all inhabited the physical plane together. I wouldn't go as far to predict how this would unfold, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if their individual whims ended up clashing with one another.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2014, 10:16:27 AM »
Not directly, maybe, but outside of enforcing the IoE's will, the God Hand's only proviso is "do as you will". They're no longer "floating around in their favourite sephira" as Slan put it. This could turn out to be more of a game-changer than meets the eye, since this is the first time they've all inhabited the physical plane together. I wouldn't go as far to predict how this would unfold, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if their individual whims ended up clashing with one another.

First off, since we haven't seen them yet I'd say it's a bit early to decide what they're doing or not. Second, I don't see what you're getting at here. Kapsi's question was whether Femto and the rest of the God Hand were going to fight because Falconia's not evil enough. It's really not a good assessment of the situation or of the relationship between members of the God Hand, so the answer to that question is pretty clearly no.

But here you're saying their whims might clash, even though they're not going to directly fight amongst themselves? I have a hard time seeing how that'd work outside of some petty (and inconsequential) disagreements. Besides, so far the God Hand's mostly acted as a team (serving the same master), even though they've all got their own agenda. I don't see why that would change just because they'd all have corporeal forms.

Offline Doc

Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 11:15:54 AM »
I think it would be a waste to have this world-shattering event bringing the God Hand into the physical plane only for them to carry on the status quo. Fact is, none of us know how what bearing this new existence will have on their relationship. Like I said, I'm not going to try and second-guess what Miura has in mind. It doesn't have to be some Illiad-esque Olympian infighting to constitute a conflict between their individual agendas. 

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 11:23:05 AM »
Like I said, I'm not going to try and second-guess what Miura has in mind.

And indeed, you're not bringing anything to the table except "maybe there'll be a conflict but not really, I'm not sure." Well, thank you for that, it was a very useful point to make here.

Offline Doc

Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 11:27:34 AM »
I'm sorry you feel that way.

Offline Delta Phi

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Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2014, 12:23:59 PM »
Not directly, maybe, but outside of enforcing the IoE's will, the God Hand's only proviso is "do as you will". They're no longer "floating around in their favourite sephira" as Slan put it. This could turn out to be more of a game-changer than meets the eye, since this is the first time they've all inhabited the physical plane together. I wouldn't go as far to predict how this would unfold, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if their individual whims ended up clashing with one another.
The biggest problem with your speculation is, so far, it's groundless. We've not seen any interaction between the God Hand to suggest that they aren't of the same mind, that is to say, that they aren't in complete agreement with each other.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2014, 01:54:48 PM »
The biggest problem with your speculation is, so far, it's groundless. We've not seen any interaction between the God Hand to suggest that they aren't of the same mind, that is to say, that they aren't in complete agreement with each other.

And aside from that, I don't see what the logic is behind the idea that having been brought into the corporeal world would create discord between them that wasn't already there before. It's not like they existed completely separately from each other in the astral world. Doc speaks of carrying on the status quo as if whimsical infighting would be a "game-changer", whereas being brought into the corporeal world is by itself much more of a big deal because of what they can now do. Because their former limits are (assumedly) no longer.

Online Walter

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Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2014, 04:03:03 PM »
I think it would be a waste to have this world-shattering event bringing the God Hand into the physical plane only for them to carry on the status quo.

Sorry to dogpile on at this point, but this particular line of thought strikes me as being extremely short sighted. There is no status quo. This is a world event without precedent. The God Hand can (presumably) directly affect the corporeal world now. Even if they are "just" being themselves, it's going to be huge. They don't have to have a wrestling match for it to be significant.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline kapsi

Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2014, 04:17:44 PM »
BTW - "floating in sephira" means they can live in mythological worlds they choose? Or maybe create their own? Is Ubik really having tea in a Bosh painting?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2014, 06:35:47 PM »
BTW - "floating in sephira" means they can live in mythological worlds they choose? Or maybe create their own? Is Ubik really having tea in a Bosh painting?

Not really mythological worlds, no. Here's an old post of mine about the meaning of the word:

It's originally a term from the Kabbalah. Its meaning in Hebrew is "enumeration". It traditionally refers to 10 attributes that God can manifest himself through. I'm not going to post lists here, but note that those attributes are metaphysical in nature and can be rather vague (stuff like "knowledge", "compassion", "determination", etc.).

The precise meaning of the word within the Berserk universe is unconfirmed as of today. Don't believe anyone that tells you otherwise. However, based on the word's meaning in our world, I believe it is safe to assume that it refers to equally vague notions and concepts in Berserk (e.g. Conrad: death, disease, misery; Slan: lechery, pain, punishment; Femto: ambition, ruthlessness; Void: knowledge, etc.).

It is also important to note that the real Sephirot are purely positive notions. God in the Kabbalah is known as a "Limitless Light". And the negative equivalent of the Sephirot (not accepted by all schools as really existing), considered to be shells around them, are called the Qliphoth. Now you must be wondering: "what's the relation with the Qliphoth in Berserk?" Well there isn't really any coherent relation. So let this be a warning against the temptation to equate what the terms mean in the real world with what they might mean in the Berserk world too confidently. Miura often borrows real-world terms without sticking to the meaning associated with them.

So, from that and from the kanji (局) associated with the furigana, we can say that the word relates to parts of the world the God Hand oversee. Although on what level they are, it's hard to say. What we see in episode 306, when they come into the corporeal world, gives you a good idea of how abstract it can be. It's something deeper, more primal than a place like the Qliphoth.

Offline kapsi

Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2014, 08:22:31 PM »
Ok, so it's something, somewhere.

Anyway, I doubt the author would show the Godhands squabbling, it would take away from the mystery of GH he preserved for so long. Making them argue would make them look less like gods and more like managers at a board meeting. But then again, if they are to be defeated, eventually they will have to start punching.

The captcha for every post is ridiculous.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The God Hand and Falconia
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2014, 09:27:04 PM »
Ok, so it's something, somewhere.

I think there's a little more than that to take away from my post.