Do you think Casca will be cured soon?

[Alucroas]

Fair enough.

[Gummyskull]

I have faith that she will be cured in Elfhelm. How this will happen and how she will be afterwards? We will know when we see it.
For Miura to make the quest to Elfhelm a wild goose chase is farfetched. It's bad story-telling and that's not what Berserk is.

I never thought about Guts going into Casca's mind to rescue her. That would be pretty cool to see if something like that does happen.

Agreed. It's an interesting idea for Guts to be involved in Casca's healing process in such an intimate way. He is the only other person who knows about her experience, so I can't imagine him not being involved somehow. It would also be like him healing along with her. ( My desire for any sort of romance between them is spilling out )

[rashikal]

Well, I don't think that what happened to Casca is exactly like when Schierke goes into a trance. But Femto is a part of the deep abyss realm and I'm just speculating that maybe besides just trauma induced psychosis that any normal human can have in real life, Casca's condition might have something to do with her spirit being damaged from her proximity to the dark abyss. Like her and Guts's previously normal human fetus was turned into a demon fetus by Femto's rape, so it may be the case that something of the dark abyss affected Casca on more than a psychological level, because the astral realms and such are very prevalent in Berserk, down to the fact that the Dragonslayer has supernatural powers from killing many enemies from the dark realm. My only speculation is that it isn't just a normal trauma, but also has astral properties. Because it seems like when Casca is threatened with sexual violence she has a "flashback" to the eclipse and she is capable of swiftly cutting down three bandits. Maybe more than just a flight or fight response it has to do with her spirit being trapped inside her by something supernatural that the Flower Storm King will be able to allude to. All I'm saying is that her condition isn't something your regular psychiatrist would be able to fix. It's just my feeling that it is supernatural.

[Aazealh]

There's no such thing as the "dark realm" or the "dark abyss realm". As for Casca's condition being supernatureral... It could be, but nothing has alluded to it so far in the series. Rather, the fact she has flashbacks when confronted to similar situations and that she did manage to kill some bandits in volume 23 is more a hint that it's psychological in nature to me.

[MrMehawk]

Well, I for one always interpreted it to be psychological but not just about the fact that she was raped but also the entire surroundings and what was going on there. I know that rape is one of the most traumatizing experiences possible but I cannot imagine Casca becoming this strongly traumatized if it had been a random human who raped her (for example the guy in her "flashback", who became her first kill). Traumatized, sure absolutely, an unspeakably horrible experience but degrading to a mute state with complete mental absence? I just find it unlikely. I'd say it was more the whole situation of being raped AND it being by Griffith AND Guts being right there AND all her friends being devoured directly before that etc. .
I still think it is psychological but the thing is psychology and spiritual things are the same or at least very strongly connected in Berserk. So I can still imagine Guts having to do something like Schierke did for Guts during first Berserker armor use (obviously not the same thing since the Berserker armor was a different beast altogether, I mean in the sense of diving into the mind to find the self of the person in there and free it / empower it).

[Aazealh]

Well, I for one always interpreted it to be psychological but not just about the fact that she was raped but also the entire surroundings and what was going on there. I know that rape is one of the most traumatizing experiences possible but I cannot imagine Casca becoming this strongly traumatized if it had been a random human who raped her (for example the guy in her "flashback", who became her first kill). Traumatized, sure absolutely, an unspeakably horrible experience but degrading to a mute state with complete mental absence? I just find it unlikely. I'd say it was more the whole situation of being raped AND it being by Griffith AND Guts being right there AND all her friends being devoured directly before that etc.

Of course, the setting added to the horror of it all. It couldn't have been worse.

I still think it is psychological but the thing is psychology and spiritual things are the same or at least very strongly connected in Berserk.

Not at all. The psychological and the spiritual are completely dissociated. The case of the Berserk's armor is specific because it influences its wearer's mind, but even then there is a clear distinction between the two. However that doesn't mean that we can't have a somewhat similar scenario with Guts going inside Casca's mind. It just wouldn't be done the same way, as the processes involved (and the causes and consequences) are different, and the resemblance would be superficial. I don't have time to go over it in detail but if you search the forum I've written many posts about the way the armor works and how it relates to Guts' psychological state.

[MrMehawk]

and the resemblance would be superficial

Oh, I meant exactly that. I in no way wanted to imply that the armor's influence on Guts is similar in nature to what happened to Casca, hence I said: "obviously not the same thing since the Berserker armor was a different beast altogether".^^ I was simply imagining the scene to superficially resemble it, since we'd be diving into the mind (and presumably the horrible memories) of Casca.

I don't have time to go over it in detail but if you search the forum I've written many posts about the way the armor works and how it relates to Guts' psychological state.

Pretty sure I've previously read those and agree. I didn't mean to make the armor the topic here, I was just reminded of the scene of Schierke in Guts' mind and memories.

It just wouldn't be done the same way

Yup.

[Patou244]

I have thought about this since the day Casca lost her mind and I have wondered how this event would play out. I have never liked how Casca lost her mind, it was engaging at first but it got old very quickly for me and I am anxious for the "insanity arc" of the story to come to a close already. I am wondering to what extent she will get her senses back. Will it be a full cure where she will be able to intelligently and objectively absorb what has transpired since the eclipse and Griffith's role in what was done to her and Guts and the hawks, or is the cure just going to return her to a lucid state and nothing more. Some how I think it would make Casca's restoration cheap if all that happens is that she pulled out of her regressed state and her pyche is bombarded with all the horrors that she endured with out also being given some kind of magical/pychological means to cope with what happened to her to heal. If she is healed I want her to be healed in a way that allows her to tackle what was done to her and over come it.

It's hard to say. I think that Casca will definitely want revenge, I mean SHE was the commander of the Band of the Hawk for a whole year after Griffith was gone. It's extremely hard to predict... because it's so complex (...) I really hate when people say "Casca will join Griffith" these are usually disgusting and insensitive people who have only seen the anime. In the manga Casca is definitely pissed off at Griffith during the eclipse while Pippin and Judeau are saving her and she expresses that she can't believe Griffith would do this. So there is no way in hell that Casca would just go and join Griffith.

I have this fear that part of the reason Casca went insane is because her godly image of Griffith she had was shattered and that she she does not want to face that. I can accept that she went insane because of the horror that happened to her and the cruelty of the rape of someone who empowered her and made her feel wroth used her like chattle. But I think I might have a problem if she just doesn't want to accept her treasured image of Griffith is false. Some how if that is the case it seems unfair to Guts as her lover. That is why I hope if Casca gets her mind back that she will want to fight Griffith instead of just avoiding the situation. I know some reluctance would be natural, but I hope she does not completely refuse to go up against him. When you think about it what Griffith did to Casca was even more depraved and disgusting then what he even did to Guts. SHe should have more reason to want revenge on Griffith/Femto than even Guts does since Griffith betrayal (and abuse)is even deeper than that of Guts in some ways.  She was the stand in commander of the Hawks. Casca in her old personality would have blamed her self for anything that happened to the hawks under her charge. I want to see some rage from her when she wakes up and avenge them and herself, and the turmoil Guts has gone through because of Griffith. Judeu and Pippin in particular protected her with their lives, they deserve to be avenged. I would almost be disapointed in her if she does not want to honor them by going after Griffith. I do not want to see Casca give Griffith a pass because of any former feelings of respect she once held for him, the only valid or excusable reason that I can see for Casca not wanting to go after Grifith should be involed with her son...and even then I would hope she would feel more outrage and vengeful that he would use her child in such a way instead of if it being a reason not to make him pay.

As for the crap about Casca possiably going to Griffith after getting her sanity back? The only way I would accpet an outcome like that is if she was restored to a mind set where she honestly did not remember the ecplise and she had no memory of what Griffith did to her. But I do not see Miura doing this.

As much as I love Schierke, despite what others may think, I believe it'd be more appropriate if Farnese was the one to aid Guts through the process. It would be a grand test for herself, display how far she's come, and lend valuable insight as to why Guts deems Casca as his true love, and finally allow her to get over all these stupid and unreciprocated feelings she has toward him

I don't think I want any of the group involved with Casca's healing. Her truama involved her and Guts and I think it should be dealt with only her and Guts. Some how think, due to their feelings for Guts that Farnese and Schierke would not be a benefit in a situation meant to restore the love of Guts's life. Schierke may have her emotions in check but Farnese is another story.


Also I really hope when Casca is restored that she will not grudge Guts in any way. One of my fears is she is going to hold the events in vol. 23 against him, and I do not want to see that. I really want to see Casca aknowldge all that Guts has done for her sake and show some consideration. The old Casca would have been devestated by the thought that she had caused Guts any harm or had been a burden on him.

[Delta Phi]

When you think about it what Griffith did to Casca was even more depraved and disgusting then what he even did to Guts. SHe should have more reason to want revenge on Griffith/Femto than even Guts does since Griffith betrayal (and abuse)is even deeper than that of Guts in some ways.

I don't think there's any doubt about that.
 

Also I really hope when Casca is restored that she will not grudge Guts in any way. One of my fears is she is going to hold the events in vol. 23 against him, and I do not want to see that.

I hear ya. I've worried about it occasionally, too, but I think once Casca is able to rationally think she'll be far more understanding.

[Alucroas]

I don't think I want any of the group involved with Casca's healing. Her truama involved her and Guts and I think it should be dealt with only her and Guts. Some how think, due to their feelings for Guts that Farnese and Schierke would not be a benefit in a situation meant to restore the love of Guts's life. Schierke may have her emotions in check but Farnese is another story.

The point isn't for whether or not they should be involved -- it's whether or not they're involvement, period -- will have a positive or negative impact of their understanding of Guts' relationship with Casca. Schierke has already received a glimpse of what happened, and if she sees it again -- this time more directly -- then it may provide us with an external lense through which to say "Hey, is going up against Griffith really worth it?" Rather than having this awkward dance of opinions between two people, whose opinions are ultimately going to be subjective, and while Schierke is still just a kid, she's far more mature and understanding of other people's feelings than she lets on.

Rickert is Falconia's objective lense. Schierke is Guts' party's objective lense. And if you want to argue against that, it needs to be realized that both of these lense-seers are still of relative age points in their lives. To deny one is to have your cake and eat it too. The Moonlight boy, Griffith, and everyone else including the Skullknight are mere variables in the equation that will lead to the decision.

[Doc]

P.S.  I really hate when people say "Casca will join Griffith" these are usually disgusting and insensitive people who have only seen the anime. In the manga Casca is definitely pissed off at Griffith during the eclipse while Pippin and Judeau are saving her and she expresses that she can't believe Griffith would do this.

I don't think Casca, or any of the Falcons for that matter, had a chance to fully process what was going on. I mean, one minute they're riding through a valley, the next they've been sacrificed to the monster mash. Doesn't Casca even ponder if the Eclipse is punishment for the sins the Falcons have committed on their journey? Like I said, I think everyone was more preoccupied with trying not to have their faces eaten off to really reflect on the gravity of Griffith's decision. Even Corkus, who arguably idolized Griffith more than anyone, just convinced himself the whole thing was a crazy dream rather than face reality and condemn his fallen idol.

[Walter]

Doesn't Casca even ponder if the Eclipse is punishment for the sins the Falcons have committed on their journey?

This notion sounds like utter nonsense. What "sins" are you talking about, exactly...?

And are you seriously postulating that had the Falcons been given a few minutes to properly chat and process events during the Eclipse, they'd come to the conclusion that, "Yes Griffith, it's totally cool to sic these monsters on us, because you're our boss afterall" ?

[Doc]

This notion sounds like utter nonsense. What "sins" are you talking about, exactly...?

"Is this Hell!? Did we sin so much..?
"Our travels were smeared with blood... Are they over at last?"

^That's the quote I'm referring to. Is that not accurate?

And are you seriously postulating that had the Falcons been given a few minutes to properly chat and process events during the Eclipse, they'd come to the conclusion that, "Yes Griffith, it's totally cool to sic these monsters on us, because you're our boss afterall" ?

Of course not, that's a bit of a reach. I was simply disagreeing with the interpretation that Casca was "pissed" at Griffith, when she didn't really have a chance to process what was going on (for good reason), and her immediate response was a philosophic one rather than 'OMG GRIFFITH HOW COULD YOU!?" None of the Falcons wanted to believe that Griffith had betrayed them.

[Delta Phi]

"Is this Hell!? Did we sin so much..?
"Our travels were smeared with blood... Are they over at last?"

^That's the quote I'm referring to. Is that not accurate?

I think you're reading too much into it that line. It's merely whoever musing over the hellish nature of the surrounding area. We all know the Eclipse Ceremony wasn't a punishment of sin against the Falcons, it was all about Griffith's choice to become the fifth God Hand member.

[Aazealh]

The point isn't for whether or not they should be involved -- it's whether or not they're involvement, period -- will have a positive or negative impact of their understanding of Guts' relationship with Casca.

I fail to see how that would be of any particular interest. Their understanding of Guts and Casca's relationship is pretty clear right now, and that relationship is bound to evolve when Casca's condition will change. How it will evolve depends on her and her alone, since Guts' desires on that matter are pretty set. The others' understanding of said relationship is completely secondary to all of that and I don't see how getting involved in the process leading to her healing would affect it.

Schierke has already received a glimpse of what happened, and if she sees it again -- this time more directly -- then it may provide us with an external lense through which to say "Hey, is going up against Griffith really worth it?"

That's a really strange (and reductive) way to look at it I think. If Schierke were to bear witness to Casca's memories of being raped, I doubt her reaction would be to question the motives of revenge against him. Furthermore, Guts himself has already forsaken his quest of revenge in order to take care of Casca, so that reflexion of the reader to which you allude has already been taking place for years. And Guts has answered it: going against Griffith isn't worth abandoning Casca. Now the thing to consider is that if the group were to go after Griffith at some point, they will likely be driven by something other than pure vengeance.

Rather than having this awkward dance of opinions between two people, whose opinions are ultimately going to be subjective

You're assuming a lot here. For one, I think Casca and Guts are definitely in a better place than anyone to decide what their own course of action should be regarding Griffith, simply because of the history they have with him. Even if everybody else wanted to go, they'd still have to hold Casca's opinion above their own desires out of sheer decency. Second, it's not like the decision to "go after Griffith" would be taken by just one or two people and everybody else would follow; I really don't believe things will go down that way. They're all free to do as they wish, and I'm convinced that by the time the group leaves Elfhelm they'll have been told about Guts & Casca's past (which will in itself be interesting even if it's narrated by the interested parties and not directly experienced in their minds).

Beyond that, I don't think "revenge" will be the sole motivation for going out there, nor do I believe that Guts or Casca's motives would be somehow less valid than Isidro's or Serpico's based on objectivity. That being said, I'm sure those questions will arise at some point in the story and I look forward to it.

Rickert is Falconia's objective lense. Schierke is Guts' party's objective lense. And if you want to argue against that, it needs to be realized that both of these lense-seers are still of relative age points in their lives. To deny one is to have your cake and eat it too. The Moonlight boy, Griffith, and everyone else including the Skullknight are mere variables in the equation that will lead to the decision.

You know, I'm not sure I'd agree to say that Rickert is necessarily completely objective about Falconia, or that Schierke is 100% objective about Guts. And it's not just a matter of age but of feelings and life experiences too. But more importantly, those are characters in the story, and there's simply no need for them to be an "objective lens" for the reader. We get to see events as told to us by the author and so our own objectivity is enough, especially since we know more about the story than all of the characters combined.

This talk of "lens-seers" sounds like hogwash to me, and I have no idea what you're getting at with your last two sentences.

"Is this Hell!? Did we sin so much..?
"Our travels were smeared with blood... Are they over at last?"

Didn't we talk before about not using scanlations? Or are your volumes just never available? Anyway, Casca does reflect along those lines, but you forget to mention that her reflexion ends with her questioning Griffith (in a way similar to Guts' own reaction). So, certainly, given all that was going on no one had time to calmly analyze the situation and its implications, but Griffith's responsability was made clear to everyone during the ceremony.

[Alucroas]

I fail to see how that would be of any particular interest. Their understanding of Guts and Casca's relationship is pretty clear right now, and that relationship is bound to evolve when Casca's condition will change. How it will evolve depends on her and her alone, since Guts' desires on that matter are pretty set. The others' understanding of said relationship is completely secondary to all of that and I don't see how getting involved in the process leading to her healing would affect it.

Saying your heart belongs to someone, and showing that your heart belongs to someone are two very different things, and the love between them cannot be shown in their present state. This is what I mean by insight. If you're diving into Casca's mind, you're diving into her experiences with Guts, what made them close and what broke her in the first place. It also lends them greater insight into why Guts may or may not make the decision to leave and go after Griffith, and the same with Casca.

That's a really strange (and reductive) way to look at it I think. If Schierke were to bear witness to Casca's memories of being raped, I doubt her reaction would be to question the motives of revenge against him. Furthermore, Guts himself has already forsaken his quest of revenge in order to take care of Casca, so that reflexion of the reader to which you allude has already been taking place for years. And Guts has answered it: going against Griffith isn't worth abandoning Casca. Now the thing to consider is that if the group were to go after Griffith at some point, they will likely be driven by something other than pure vengeance.

What reduction...where? I said it would give us an external lense through which to view the situation, not a means for Schierke to walk up to Guts and try to convince him otherwise. You can have your opinion and still keep it to yourself without saying a word, and in Schierke's case, we just happen to be able to see her opinion. That's what I meant. I think we need another perspective, and I believe Schierke may be able to offer it, even if she chooses not to voice it.

You're assuming a lot here. For one, I think Casca and Guts are definitely in a better place than anyone to decide what their own course of action should be regarding Griffith, simply because of the history they have with him. Even if everybody else wanted to go, they'd still have to hold Casca's opinion above their own desires out of sheer decency. Second, it's not like the decision to "go after Griffith" would be taken by just one or two people and everybody else would follow; I really don't believe things will go down that way. They're all free to do as they wish, and I'm convinced that by the time the group leaves Elfhelm they'll have been told about Guts & Casca's past (which will in itself be interesting even if it's narrated by the interested parties and not directly experienced in their minds).

I'm assuming here, because the last time Casca had a chance to make character progress, she admitted that she was being a stupid indecisive bitch. Regardless of what Femto did to her, Femto has her SON, which is going to lead to some massive indecision. Even in her mentally handicapped state, she is ferociously protective him, and will not let Guts anywhere near him. Do you really believe that these instincts won't remain after she's healed, that she won't be able to put two and two together, that she won't recognize his hormonal scent (yes, people do this, it's a proven fact, go look it up) and feel uneasy? Try looking at this from another perspective. There are typically two full moons a month. This means if Casca forms any sort of connection to the Moonlight Boy then what do you think will happen to her when he suddenly vanishes, and then the KoFS or whoever has the most knowledge has to say: "Sorry, Casca, he went back to being apart of Griffith, y'know, that guy who raped you and slaughtered all your comrades?" Even if he doesn't use those words, that's what the situation is going to be, whether she or anyone else likes it or not.

When Guts first watched the kid inside the cabin at the beach, he considered killing the fucker, and I don't doubt that his brand won't still be tickling him the next time he shows up. When Casca is healed and sane again, he may be more tolerant, because as far as he knew she was too dumb to think and make decisions for herself.

Now here's the major factor. Farnese has been taking care of Casca, she has literally acted as her mother, who she trusts instinctively and runs to when she's afraid. Do you think those trusting feelings won't carry over when she's brought back? That all that trust will simply vanish. Casca isn't the type to make a decision on her own without talking about it with a third person. She went to Judeau for this constantly, because Judeau was trustworthy, Judeau knew how to say the right thing at the right time. Farnese may not be a wisdom-speaker like Judeau, but she has matured, she has grown up, she has the ability to think objectively when she has to, and if someone who she's been taking care of like a daughter for several months decides that she needs her opinion, especially after possibly receiving some sort of direct insight into her past, or being directly informed of it by the KoFS then I'd be inclined to believe that she'd provide some sort of answer.

Remember, Farnese made the decision to follow Guts on her own. If she's bright enough to make a life-changing decision for herself and stick to it, then she's smart enough to give Casca advice. And yes, I am aware of the lvls of difference in trauma they experienced, and what the results were, but the fact of the matter is they've both gone through horrifying experiences.

Farnese may not be a fucking therapist with a Ph.D, she's no Dr. Phil either, but she's far from being an inexperienced twat when it comes to overcoming mental trauma and learning how to deal with it.

Beyond that, I don't think "revenge" will be the sole motivation for going out there, nor do I believe that Guts or Casca's motives would be somehow less valid than Isidro's or Serpico's based on objectivity. That being said, I'm sure those questions will arise at some point in the story and I look forward to it.

I don't think revenge will be either, I'm just debating the popular topic. I frankly believe that somewhere, deep down, Guts and Griffith want to sit down and talk. Griffith didn't take the time to watch Guts sail away into the ocean after his battle with Ganishka for no reason, and it didn't feature him grabbing his heart, or acting in any way suggestive of him thinking about how to handle the Moonlight Child.

You know, I'm not sure I'd agree to say that Rickert is necessarily completely objective about Falconia, or that Schierke is 100% objective about Guts. And it's not just a matter of age but of feelings and life experiences too. But more importantly, those are characters in the story, and there's simply no need for them to be an "objective lens" for the reader. We get to see events as told to us by the author and so our own objectivity is enough, especially since we know more about the story than all of the characters combined.

Nice dodge, and try not to bridge two methods of observation again and then try to detonate that same bridge before other people have a chance to walk across it. Characters determine the outcome of the story, and that's more important than my, yours, or everyone else's opinion on this board and elsewhere's combined as the author chooses to portray the story.

And this is not a story told to us, it's a story shown to us, all the narrative that gets inserted into the plot is typically to provide us with a more worldly view of things.

This talk of "lens-seers" sounds like hogwash to me, and I have no idea what you're getting at with your last two sentences.

Rickert's perspective isn't more important than Schierke's, and Schierke's isn't more important than Rickert's, because both of their perspectives are rooted in what other people have told them. Rickert saw the Eclipse from the outside but had no idea what the fuck was going on inside. Schierke caught a glimpse of the Eclipse, albeit more directly, but never quite got a front-row seat to it.

Having your cake and eating it too means you want to be able to have both of their opinions, but still raise one as being more important than the other. I'm not saying you did this, I am speaking of it as a general bit of advice for how I think the value of character perspectives should be measured, and there perspectives are important because Guts' has a family now and he has to do what's right for that family which he clearly sees himself as being responsible for.

--

Furthermore, everything Guts and Casca decide to do from that point on will effect the entire party. Yes, Serpico, Schierke, Farnese can choose to stay, but the fact of the matter of these people have all bonded with each other on some level. Saying "Fuck you, this is my decision, I will make it" sounds ridiculously selfish and just straight-up bitchlike without them knowing the full-depth of their decision and why they chose to make it. You can't gain full insight, and you can't gain full, true perspective without actually witnessing what has happened to a person on some visceral level, no matter what everyone else says or tells you to believe.

[Gummyskull]

Saying your heart belongs to someone, and showing that your heart belongs to someone are two very different things, and the love between them cannot be shown in their present state. This is what I mean by insight. If you're diving into Casca's mind, you're diving into her experiences with Guts, what made them close and what broke her in the first place. It also lends them greater insight into why Guts may or may not make the decision to leave and go after Griffith, and the same with Casca.

His love for her has certainly been shown, and he has said that he will never abandon Casca again. As Aaz said, when Casca recovers it is up to her and her alone how their relationship will evolve.

I'm assuming here, because the last time Casca had a chance to make character progress, she admitted that she was being a stupid indecisive bitch.

May you please not resort to using sexist insults to describe female characters? She wasn't being indecisive anyway, her overwhelming feelings of guilt and duty led her to make the painful, self-sacrificing decision to stay with Griffith and the Hawks.

When Guts first watched the kid inside the cabin at the beach, he considered killing the fucker

Where did you get this idea?

Do you think those trusting feelings won't carry over when she's brought back? That all that trust will simply vanish. Casca isn't the type to make a decision on her own without talking about it with a third person.

We don't know anything about how those feelings will carry over. Casca might trust Farnese afterwards, but that doesn't mean she will feel comfortable asking for advice. Casca becoming sane is going to change the dynamics of their relationship completely.

Plus, Judo knew far more about Griffith, Guts, and Casca than Farnese ever will.

Farnese may not be a fucking therapist with a Ph.D, she's no Dr. Phil either, but she's far from being an inexperienced twat when it comes to overcoming mental trauma and learning how to deal with it.

Again, may you please refrain from using sexist slurs? It's unnecessary.
Farnese as she is now doesn't come off as someone who can offer useful advice. She has not been one to react objectively, her behavior when she yelled at Casca while giving her a bath in in episode 331 are two examples.  She has been motivated entirely by her feelings.

[Aazealh]

Saying your heart belongs to someone, and showing that your heart belongs to someone are two very different things

This is really going nowhere, you should realize that. First off, nothing has to be proven to anyone, and really, Guts & Casca's relationship isn't anyone's business but theirs. Second, showing? Showing what? You're thinking of some voyeuristic experience where snapshots of Casca's past experiences with Guts would somehow indubitably prove something that mere words wouldn't? Not only is that impractical (Schierke certainly didn't gain much understanding from what she saw in Guts' mind), but it's also completely inconclusive. The past is the past. Lastly, you're still assuming that somehow diving into Casca's mind would need assistance from someone like Farnese, which is hard to conceive and would show off her entire life and experiences with Guts, which isn't sure at all.

and the love between them cannot be shown in their present state.

Guts loves her in spite of her state, he's shown it, and it's been recognized by all interested parties. Anyway, like I said, their relationship will change when she regains herself, that's obvious.

If you're diving into Casca's mind, you're diving into her experiences with Guts, what made them close and what broke her in the first place.

Are you sure? We have no idea how things will happen, and just diving into her mind to bring her back won't necessarily involve going over her experiences with Guts. That's certainly not what drove her insane.

It also lends them greater insight into why Guts may or may not make the decision to leave and go after Griffith, and the same with Casca.

Do they need a greater insight than simply being told? As for going after Griffith, it's not like it's a big mystery: we know they'll eventually come to it. And like I said in my previous post, I don't think revenge for Casca will be the main drive for it.

What reduction...where? I said it would give us an external lense through which to view the situation

Because as readers, we definitely don't need Schierke to see Casca's traumatic memories in order to have "an external lens" (that doesn't mean anything, by the way) on whether or not going up against Griffith is "worth it".

You can have your opinion and still keep it to yourself without saying a word, and in Schierke's case, we just happen to be able to see her opinion. That's what I meant.

We're able to see any character's opinion so long as Miura sees it fit. That's not particular to Schierke, and her opinion on whether going against Griffith is worth it or not is not especially more valuable than anyone else's to me.

I think we need another perspective, and I believe Schierke may be able to offer it, even if she chooses not to voice it.

But the problem here man is that we can get many perspectives on the situation without resorting to the scenario you've concocted. For one thing, like I've been saying, I doubt revenge will be the main drive for the group to go after Griffith. Why would they all follow if it were the case? Besides, Guts has forsaken his revenge for Casca's sake so far, and while we know he'd like to face him it's not like he'll be desperate to get off Elfhelm right after arriving there, dragging everyone with him against their will. That's a pretty big assumption on your part that warps all of what you're saying.

I'm assuming here, because the last time Casca had a chance to make character progress, she admitted that she was being a stupid indecisive bitch.

Could you please not gratuitously insult the characters? Because not only is what you're saying completely untrue, it's puerile and annihilates any attempt you may make at being taken seriously.

Regardless of what Femto did to her, Femto has her SON, which is going to lead to some massive indecision. Even in her mentally handicapped state, she is ferociously protective him, and will not let Guts anywhere near him. Do you really believe that these instincts won't remain after she's healed, that she won't be able to put two and two together, that she won't recognize his hormonal scent (yes, people do this, it's a proven fact, go look it up) and feel uneasy? Try looking at this from another perspective.

How about you try looking at it from another perspective yourself: do you not think Guts will be unwilling to kill his own son? Because if so, you're sorely mistaken. Which ties to what I've been trying to tell you: it's not going to just be about revenge.

There are typically two full moons a month.

Uh, what? The lunar cycle is a little over 29 days. That's once a month.

then the KoFS or whoever has the most knowledge has to say: "Sorry, Casca, he went back to being apart of Griffith

We don't know how or when that information will be given to them. It might not happen in Elfhelm, but later on.

When Guts first watched the kid inside the cabin at the beach, he considered killing the fucker, and I don't doubt that his brand won't still be tickling him the next time he shows up.

What the fuck are you talking about? Are you sure you've read the series? Guts definitely did not consider killing the boy at any point, and the Brand doesn't react to him either. You have a serious comprehension problem if that's what you took away from the scene.

Farnese has been taking care of Casca, she has literally acted as her mother, who she trusts instinctively and runs to when she's afraid. Do you think those trusting feelings won't carry over when she's brought back?

Indeed, they might not.

Casca isn't the type to make a decision on her own without talking about it with a third person.

That isn't true. Casca was a leader, and she acted as such on numerous occasions, taking initiative when needed. Asking for people's counsel doesn't mean you can't take decision on your own, and I feel that's a deliberately disingenuous comment on your part here.

She went to Judeau for this constantly, because Judeau was trustworthy, Judeau knew how to say the right thing at the right time.

Don't bring your fan fiction into this, it's embarrassing.

Remember, Farnese made the decision to follow Guts on her own. If she's bright enough to make a life-changing decision for herself and stick to it, then she's smart enough to give Casca advice. And yes, I am aware of the lvls of difference in trauma they experienced, and what the results were, but the fact of the matter is they've both gone through horrifying experiences.

That's a lot of talk that amounts to nothing much. So Farnese could be a good friend to a restored Casca, breaking news. That doesn't make her especially well-suited to intervene in order to help bring back the Casca that's been absent ever since before they met. I've told you so before, a few days ago. It's not unlike when Guts' consciousness is swept up by the Od of the Berserk's armor: it's not the thought of his companion that bring him back, it's that of the woman he loves. Would a "stranger" that doesn't know what trauma Casca endured be the best fit to help her out of it?

I don't think revenge will be either, I'm just debating the popular topic.

That's not the topic at hand, so you don't have to debate it. But you're not really doing that anyway, like I said above you're using it as the basic assumption on which you build most of your theory about how things will go down.

I frankly believe that somewhere, deep down, Guts and Griffith want to sit down and talk.

Nice dodge, and try not to bridge two methods of observation again and then try to detonate that same bridge before other people have a chance to walk across it. Characters determine the outcome of the story, and that's more important than my, yours, or everyone else's opinion on this board and elsewhere's combined as the author chooses to portray the story.

I'm not dodging anything here, you're the one beating around the bush when I've directly addressed your preposterous assertions about two characters being central to the storytelling through a supposed objectivity you've bestowed upon them out of the blue. Rickert and Schierke both have their own perspectives, and like I said I don't believe they're necessarily more objective about events than other characters. Nor do I believe they need to occupy such an illusory role.

And this is not a story told to us, it's a story shown to us

It's both shown through drawings and told through text, as a matter of fact.

Rickert's perspective isn't more important than Schierke's, and Schierke's isn't more important than Rickert's, because both of their perspectives are rooted in what other people have told them. Rickert saw the Eclipse from the outside but had no idea what the fuck was going on inside. Schierke caught a glimpse of the Eclipse, albeit more directly, but never quite got a front-row seat to it.

Having your cake and eating it too means you want to be able to have both of their opinions, but still raise one as being more important than the other. I'm not saying you did this, I am speaking of it as a general bit of advice for how I think the value of character perspectives should be measured, and there perspectives are important because Guts' has a family now and he has to do what's right for that family which he clearly sees himself as being responsible for.

What the hell are you talking about? Like I've said, all characters in the story have their own perspectives, but they're just that: the perspectives of characters in a story. The reader does not need one or two of those perspectives to be somehow "more objective" than that of every other character, because the reader has the ability to enjoy the story from outside, by virtue of being a reader. I'm not sure why you started talking about lenses and "lens-seers" and nonsensical stuff like that, but I can assure you it's not going anywhere.

Furthermore, everything Guts and Casca decide to do from that point on will effect the entire party.

Affect. Affect the entire party.

Yes, Serpico, Schierke, Farnese can choose to stay, but the fact of the matter of these people have all bonded with each other on some level. Saying "Fuck you, this is my decision, I will make it" sounds ridiculously selfish and just straight-up bitchlike without them knowing the full-depth of their decision and why they chose to make it.

There's no ground at all for that line of reasoning, that someone would take a decision without caring about the others, and I actually argued against that possibility in my previous post. It's also pretty funny that you seem to forget that Farnese and Serpico had both decided to leave the group without giving any proper reason to the others in Vritannis.

You can't gain full insight, and you can't gain full, true perspective without actually witnessing what has happened to a person on some visceral level, no matter what everyone else says or tells you to believe.

That's not a valid point at all. You don't need to witness something in order to believe what someone tells you. Saying otherwise is rather ridiculous, and doesn't even need to be disproved. Guts' group started following him despite his reluctance and without even knowing where he was going. I don't think they'll demand to probe his mind for truth the next time around.

[rashikal]

Please don't take the Band of the Hawks translation as canon. They added things that the characters never actually said.

[Alucroas]

This is my last post for this particular debate. If you don't like what I had to say, well get over it, because it's just an opinion. I did not like having to get aggressive and if I sounded like an asshole, well, I'm only 10% sorry.

His love for her has certainly been shown, and he has said that he will never abandon Casca again. As Aaz said, when Casca recovers it is up to her and her alone how their relationship will evolve.

No, it hasn't been shown, not at it's full capacity. They have never seen Guts and Casca, hug, kiss, or do anything even remotely affectionate that displays just how much they truly love each other. Clearly, we have different views on one's capacity for showing love and speaking of love.

May you please not resort to using sexist insults to describe female characters? She wasn't being indecisive anyway, her overwhelming feelings of guilt and duty led her to make the painful, self-sacrificing decision to stay with Griffith and the Hawks.

She called herself a bitch outright, thought of herself as one, and admitted to acting like one. This isn't a social ethics class, and I'm not here to entertain your feminist sensibilities, so cut it out.

Are you sure? We have no idea how things will happen, and just diving into her mind to bring her back won't necessarily involve going over her experiences with Guts. That's certainly not what drove her insane.

I'm absolutely, damn, 100% sure. She ELOPED WITH GUTS after revealing her true feelings with them, struggled between the ones she had for him, and the one she held for Griffith, decided she wanted to stick with Griffith to protect and nurse him back to health. What happened after that?! In a cruel twist of irony, that same person RAPES her, violates and tramples her love for Guts in the worst possible way, WHILE MAKING HIM LOOK AT HER AND FOR HER TO VIEW THE FUCKING ENRAGED LOOK ON HIS FACE.

I should not have to explain something so extremely obvious.

Where did you get this idea?

What the fuck are you talking about? Are you sure you've read the series? Guts definitely did not consider killing the boy at any point, and the Brand doesn't react to him either. You have a serious comprehension problem if that's what you took away from the scene.

No, you have a serious accusation and dismissal problem.

You also have an IMAGE COMPERHENSION problem. I suggest you fix them.



He looks at the boy, then looks at the knife in his hand. Put two and two together. Holy shit, he's thinking about throwing the knife at the boy so he can practice his circus tricks.

We don't know anything about how those feelings will carry over. Casca might trust Farnese afterwards, but that doesn't mean she will feel comfortable asking for advice. Casca becoming sane is going to change the dynamics of their relationship completely.

This is why we're in a speculation thread, not a black and white thread, called "This will happen because I say so compounded with the fact that I disagree with you." That said, don't shift your connotation of consideration to one of absolution in the following sentence. It contradicts what you're saying and encompasses more than what you're trying to argue against as it pertains to my opinion.

Again, may you please refrain from using sexist slurs? It's unnecessary.
Farnese as she is now doesn't come off as someone who can offer useful advice. She has not been one to react objectively, her behavior when she yelled at Casca while giving her a bath in in episode 331 are two examples.  She has been motivated entirely by her feelings.

She called herself a bitch, and she has yet to redeem her bitchy quality, and no it's not a sexist slur. And again, I'm not here to entertain your misguided feminist sensibilities, so cut it out, or I'll just stop replying to anything you have to say from here on out.

Second, showing? Showing what? You're thinking of some voyeuristic experience where snapshots of Casca's past experiences with Guts would somehow indubitably prove something that mere words wouldn't?

It proves the sheer depth of why he's protecting her as well as his violent reaction to Apostles that never fails to enrage him beyond any reason. It's about more than him just loving her and protecting her, it's about what he wants to protect her from, ontop of shedding insight as to what in the fuck caused the Beast of Darkness to be borne inside him. All this shit has to be addressed, all of it, it is all interconnected and none of it is even remotely separate. Farnese, Isidro, Serpico, and with the borderline exception of Schierke all know JACK SHIT about the true nature of his past with her.

Guts loves her in spite of her state, he's shown it, and it's been recognized by all interested parties. Anyway, like I said, their relationship will change when she regains herself, that's obvious.

What is this "in spite of her state" thing all about. There's no spite, he hasn't openly shown rage against Casca, the beast of Darkness which is a mental creation from his mind doesn't hate her or spite her either, save for the specific context that it views her as an obstacle to getting to Griffith.

Yes, their relationship will change, now stop telling me things that I'm not disagreeing with you about. It's a cheap attempt to give yourself some delusional high ground and it's pretty annoying.

Are you sure? We have no idea how things will happen, and just diving into her mind to bring her back won't necessarily involve going over her experiences with Guts. That's certainly not what drove her insane.

I explained it to the other girl but I guess I have to explain it twice. Falls in love with Guts, elopes with Guts, has mixed feelings. Griffith witnesses Casca's love for Guts, Griffith becomes jealous, Griffith rapes Guts to spite him and forces Casca to feel like she betrayed Guts by making him look at her as she's being raped.

I say again, it's all connected. How is it connected? Because Griffith -- okay Femto (don't want to trigger the cynical part of you again) -- DESTROYED THE RELATIONSHIP THEY HAD DAYS AFTER IT HAD FORMED. DUH.

We're able to see any character's opinion so long as Miura sees it fit. That's not particular to Schierke, and her opinion on whether going against Griffith is worth it or not is not especially more valuable than anyone else's to me.

This is what I mean by "Nice dodge." only this time it's like an ant trying to dodge an asteroid. It won't work. Stop hiding behind the author to make you points, because we all know the author, Mr. Miura isn't here to back you up and he's not interested in doing it either. The author provides points for us to look at in the story, he also provides us with future points to speculate on, and that's exactly what point we're at right now as it pertains to this debate.

A speculation point, not one where things are written in stone, and have been pre-determined. If you truly don't understand this point, which I'm not interested in explaining multiple times, simply don't respond to it because I'm not going to waste time here having an intellectual shit-flinging contest.

Could you please not gratuitously insult the characters? Because not only is what you're saying completely untrue, it's puerile and annihilates any attempt you may make at being taken seriously.

Well, since you said please, I'm going to assume it's not a rule. NO. Do that thing you do again, where you quote the wrong panels to prove your point against me and I might just reconsider.  Other people's moral opinion of me isn't my concern, not when it pertains to arguing a real point about Casca's mixed feelings. Furthermore, we're reading Berserk. If you can handle rape, pedophilia, and other horrible things, then you can handle me referencing it as a point of contention.

tl;dr Grow up.

Because as readers, we definitely don't need Schierke to see Casca's traumatic memories in order to have "an external lens" (that doesn't mean anything, by the way) on whether or not going up against Griffith is "worth it".

Who is we? You're the admin of a discussion board, not Miura's spokesperson and while I appreciate you doing your best to help me and provide a place to discuss Berserk, I am in no way obligated to count myself among the collective opinions that you seem to think are orbiting around your brain.

And while you're at it, stop with the statements of absolution, so I can actually have a two-way discussion with you and not constantly resist the urge to say things that might get me into serious trouble. And at least have the decency to say it to me directly, not in parenthesis.

But the problem here man is that we can get many perspectives on the situation without resorting to the scenario you've concocted. For one thing, like I've been saying, I doubt revenge will be the main drive for the group to go after Griffith. Why would they all follow if it were the case? Besides, Guts has forsaken his revenge for Casca's sake so far, and while we know he'd like to face him it's not like he'll be desperate to get off Elfhelm right after arriving there, dragging everyone with him against their will. That's a pretty big assumption on your part that warps all of what you're saying.

None of what you just said is anything I am arguing aside from the "concocted scenario". If you're going to accuse me of being assumptive try to do it while not being presumptuous at the same time. It makes you look like you're arguing with a ghost of a person who never lived.

How about you try looking at it from another perspective yourself: do you not think Guts will be unwilling to kill his own son? Because if so, you're sorely mistaken. Which ties to what I've been trying to tell you: it's not going to just be about revenge.

Don't ask me to look at something from another perspective then dismiss it in the same breath. That's basically putting a gun in my hand and then trying to arrest me for "possession of a lethal weapon".

Enough of these attempts at using dead-end methods of arguing your points. I don't fall for them, I don't listen to them, and I don't acknowledge them as valid, but I will acknowledge their invalidity.

Uh, what? The lunar cycle is a little over 29 days. That's once a month.

Oops.  Guess that means Casca will be even more pissed off when she finds out she only gets to see him once a month instead of twice. This is starting to feel like a custody battle.

That isn't true. Casca was a leader, and she acted as such on numerous occasions, taking initiative when needed. Asking for people's counsel doesn't mean you can't take decision on your own, and I feel that's a deliberately disingenuous comment on your part here.

Last we saw her, she couldn't make the decision as to whether she loved Guts or Griffith, but then Femto raped her into saying: "Well, if I can't have both, I can't have either." Don't tell me you feel I'm being disingenuous, because I will throw it back in your face as far as this debate is concerned. And no, I won't flame, or insult you in the process either. That's not my style, so don't take it the wrong way or I'll have more annoying crap to clear up.

What the hell are you talking about? Like I've said, all characters in the story have their own perspectives, but they're just that: the perspectives of characters in a story. The reader does not need one or two of those perspectives to be somehow "more objective" than that of every other character, because the reader has the ability to enjoy the story from outside, by virtue of being a reader. I'm not sure why you started talking about lenses and "lens-seers" and nonsensical stuff like that, but I can assure you it's not going anywhere.

Because the characters help to tell the story. If you can't grasp what I meant by "lens-seers" and other sensical stuff like that, then I can assure you, you'll be the only one not going anywhere.

*Slap*

Don't troll me if you want me to take you seriously. That's why my responses are becoming less professional and more geared toward poking fun at their absurdities, while using them to aid my own arguments.

Affect. Affect the entire party.

Relevancy, your honor? Don't point that out. I don't care, but I'll sure not to make that mistake again, so I don't have to mock you for using misspellings as stacking tools to make a point. In other words, don't get uppity about tomato tomato or potato potato.

It's not that not all that crushial to your point.

There's no ground at all for that line of reasoning, that someone would take a decision without caring about the others, and I actually argued against that possibility in my previous post. It's also pretty funny that you seem to forget that Farnese and Serpico had both decided to leave the group without giving any proper reason to the others in Vritannis.

Well since you agree with so much, why don't you stop pretending to be the teacher, and I the student in your imaginary classroom.

That's not a valid point at all. You don't need to witness something in order to believe what someone tells you. Saying otherwise is rather ridiculous,

Saying otherwise means other people take different levels of convincing to believe what a person says. Go read a book on individuality and come back to me after you've enlightened yourself on the nature of discussing points with other people.

Please don't take the Band of the Hawks translation as canon.

Fortunately I'm using images to argue my points and not words. Words can be misleading at times, especially when they come from the wrong lips.

[Rupert Sinclair]

This is my last post for this particular debate.

Thank god.

I'm not here to entertain your misguided feminist sensibilities, so cut it out, or I'll just stop replying to anything you have to say from here on out.

Maybe you should just stop replying to anything anyone has to say from here on out, buddy. 

tl;dr Grow up.

Ha.  I don't think it's Aazealh who needs to do some growing up here.

It's not that not all that crushial to your point.

 

[Gummyskull]

She called herself a bitch outright, thought of herself as one, and admitted to acting like one. This isn't a social ethics class, and I'm not here to entertain your feminist sensibilities, so cut it out.

She called herself that in an inaccurate scanslation.

He looks at the boy, then looks at the knife in his hand. Put two and two together. Holy shit, he's thinking about throwing the knife at the boy so he can practice his circus tricks.

He wanted to kill him so much he prevented the child from falling on the throwing knives shortly after..

She called herself a bitch, and she has yet to redeem her bitchy quality, and no it's not a sexist slur. And again, I'm not here to entertain your misguided feminist sensibilities, so cut it out, or I'll just stop replying to anything you have to say from here on out.

It's a pejorative word used towards women, and you are using it to insult the female characters.  I'm fine with you not replying to me since my "feminist sensibilities" and polite requests have been enough to annoy you. But I'll reiterate that this interpretation of her character is based off a shoddy translation.

This thread is going way off topic. So how about we go back to the event of Casca being cured. Do you think that The King of the Flower Storm has some very powerful dust that can treat the mind or might more than elf dust be involved? Like maybe some of the wizards that populate are will come together to help. Just throwing out some points to discuss.

[jackson_hurley]

She called herself that in an inaccurate scanslation.

What she said.

He wanted to kill him so much he prevented the child from falling on the throwing knives shortly after..

What she said x2

This thread is going way off topic. So how about we go back to the event of Casca being cured. Do you think that The King of the Flower Storm has some very powerful dust that can treat the mind or might more than elf dust be involved? Like maybe some of the wizards that populate are will come together to help. Just throwing out some points to discuss.

I'm more with the others that it's gonna be some diving into the head of Casca to cure her instead of powerfull elf dust. Well that's what I'd like to see.

[Delta Phi]

Relevancy, your honor? Don't point that out. I don't care, but I'll sure not to make that mistake again, so I don't have to mock you for using misspellings as stacking tools to make a point. In other words, don't get uppity about tomato tomato or potato potato.

This goes far beyond just a spelling error. Affect and effect have two different uses, and it has nothing to do with spelling, but everything to do with using the correct word.

I'm more with the others that it's gonna be some diving into the head of Casca to cure her instead of powerfull elf dust. Well that's what I'd like to see.

Agreed. I'm really hoping for something a little more involved that some fairy dust. I hadn't even considered Guts possibly having to dive into her psyche to bring her back, but that would be pretty incredible if it ends up going that direction.

[Aazealh]

This is my last post for this particular debate. If you don't like what I had to say, well get over it, because it's just an opinion. I did not like having to get aggressive and if I sounded like an asshole, well, I'm only 10% sorry.

I can't fault you for wanting to put an end to this embarrassing display of yours, but I wish you'd had the class to do it properly instead of catering to your wounded pride.

No, it hasn't been shown, not at it's full capacity. They have never seen Guts and Casca, hug, kiss, or do anything even remotely affectionate that displays just how much they truly love each other.

They have seen Guts care about and risk his life for Casca. You're seriously deluding yourself if you think anyone among Guts' group has doubts about his love for her. And it's really just all in the manga, too. You only have to read it.

She called herself a bitch outright, thought of herself as one, and admitted to acting like one.

That's not true. Casca's never used that word to describe herself. Given all your mistaken beliefs you should re-read the manga.

I'm absolutely, damn, 100% sure. She ELOPED WITH GUTS after revealing her true feelings with them, struggled between the ones she had for him, and the one she held for Griffith, decided she wanted to stick with Griffith to protect and nurse him back to health. What happened after that?! In a cruel twist of irony, that same person RAPES her, violates and tramples her love for Guts in the worst possible way, WHILE MAKING HIM LOOK AT HER AND FOR HER TO VIEW THE FUCKING ENRAGED LOOK ON HIS FACE.

What you don't understand is that the hypothetical "going into her mind" isn't necessarily going to be a film reel showing all of her life in detail or anything of the sort. Your certainty about how things will go down is only a testament to your misguided arrogance about topics you don't know anything about.

No, you have a serious accusation and dismissal problem.

You also have an IMAGE COMPERHENSION problem. I suggest you fix them.

He looks at the boy, then looks at the knife in his hand. Put two and two together. Holy shit, he's thinking about throwing the knife at the boy so he can practice his circus tricks.

Hahahaha, ahhh, my poor boy, what are we going to do with you? I would rather laugh at this, but in truth it's pretty sad. No, Guts doesn't think about throwing the knife at the boy. You clearly have a reading comprehension problem here, and as you can see it's not just me telling you so. Practice circus tricks? How old are you, really? And have you not considered the other interactions Guts has had with the boy? With his son? How he was reminded of the Demon Child when he watched Casca feed the boy, without knowing they are one and the same? What about when the boy saved his life? How could anyone be so mistaken?! It's telling that you're so sure of how things should be that you're blatantly ignoring what's in the manga, or reinterpreting it so that it fits your distorted notions.

This is why we're in a speculation thread, not a black and white thread, called "This will happen because I say so compounded with the fact that I disagree with you."

You fail to understand that what is being refutted is the basis on which you ground your argument. And saying "you can't prove it's not possible" as you're doing here isn't a proper response.

She called herself a bitch

No, she didn't. Please don't make statements like that unless you can back them up.

It proves the sheer depth of why he's protecting her as well as his violent reaction to Apostles that never fails to enrage him beyond any reason. It's about more than him just loving her and protecting her, it's about what he wants to protect her from, ontop of shedding insight as to what in the fuck caused the Beast of Darkness to be borne inside him. All this shit has to be addressed, all of it, it is all interconnected and none of it is even remotely separate. Farnese, Isidro, Serpico, and with the borderline exception of Schierke all know JACK SHIT about the true nature of his past with her.

So let me repeat it again to you: why wouldn't telling it be enough? It's downright psychotic of you to insist that Guts & Casca's past has to be experienced by the others directly from their minds in order for them to understand events that are really not so complicated to explain. And like I've told you, it's not like the bubbles of light Schierke saw in Guts' mind furnished her with a crystal-clear understanding of his life, far from it. Did Rickert need to see the truth directly from Guts' brain in order to believe what had happened during the Occultation ceremony? No. Then why would Isidro need to?

Oh and just for info, I know you like to add an 'e' to the word "lens" and that's your prerogative, but "borne" is the past particle of the verb "to bear", not an alternate spelling of "born".

What is this "in spite of her state" thing all about. There's no spite, he hasn't openly shown rage against Casca, the beast of Darkness which is a mental creation from his mind doesn't hate her or spite her either, save for the specific context that it views her as an obstacle to getting to Griffith.

The expression "in spite of" and the noun "spite" have very different meanings, you know. "In spite of", or "despite", means that something is the case without regard for something else. Literally in spite of it. Examples: I went out without a coat in spite of the rain. I am hungry despite having just eaten.

Regardless, yes, the Beast of Darkness is a "mental creation of the mind", as you so elegantly put it. And yes, it views Casca as an obstacle (the obstacle, in fact) to Guts' quest of revenge against Griffith. Rightly so, too, as Guts has chosen to protect her over going for said revenge. Because, you know, he loves her. In spite of her current state (i.e. the fact she doesn't reciprocate his love).

Yes, their relationship will change, now stop telling me things that I'm not disagreeing with you about. It's a cheap attempt to give yourself some delusional high ground and it's pretty annoying.

You make me laugh. You're the one who replied to me by saying that her current state prevented their love as a couple to be shown (you know, smooching and all that) when I had written in my previous post that their relationship was obviously bound to evolve after she woke up. Don't turn things around when everyone can scroll up and check, it's useless.

I explained it to the other girl but I guess I have to explain it twice. [...] I say again, it's all connected. How is it connected? Because Griffith -- okay Femto (don't want to trigger the cynical part of you again) -- DESTROYED THE RELATIONSHIP THEY HAD DAYS AFTER IT HAD FORMED. DUH.

See what I told you above, genius. Or what I'd told you in my previous post. Everyone here understands the tragic implication of the fact the rape happened when it did, the way it did, and involved the people it did. What you fail to understand (well, one of the things) is that the method used to help Casca recover is unknown to us and that even if it involves entering her consciousness, it won't necessarily feature a detailed, step by step exhibition of every single event that occurred leading up to the rape. We don't know how the King of the Flower Storm will do it, nor whether others will be involved or not, nor what will be found in there or how it will be experienced. Even if whoever is involved (which, regarding your earlier comment, is unlikely to be everyone in the group) gets to experience "bubbles of light" like those Schierke saw in Guts' mind, let me remind you again that Schierke did not gain much insight from it. Not much at all.

This is what I mean by "Nice dodge." only this time it's like an ant trying to dodge an asteroid. It won't work. Stop hiding behind the author to make you points, because we all know the author, Mr. Miura isn't here to back you up and he's not interested in doing it either. The author provides points for us to look at in the story, he also provides us with future points to speculate on, and that's exactly what point we're at right now as it pertains to this debate.

I'm not sure whether you're dishonest or just have a serious mental problem. You were babbling on about lenses and objective lens-seers and so on, and so I stated the obvious to try to reason with you: that those are just characters in a story, and that anything we see in said story in general is by the author's will. Do you understand? Miura doesn't provide us with "points to look at" (what points?) in the story, he provides us with the story, period. It honestly feels like you're the one "dodging" what I'm telling you here, and as you must know, it is indeed not working.

If you truly don't understand this point, which I'm not interested in explaining multiple times, simply don't respond to it because I'm not going to waste time here having an intellectual shit-flinging contest.

My poor man, I'm afraid you've been wasting everyone's time already.

Well, since you said please, I'm going to assume it's not a rule. NO. Do that thing you do again, where you quote the wrong panels to prove your point against me and I might just reconsider.  Other people's moral opinion of me isn't my concern, not when it pertains to arguing a real point about Casca's mixed feelings. Furthermore, we're reading Berserk. If you can handle rape, pedophilia, and other horrible things, then you can handle me referencing it as a point of contention.

tl;dr Grow up.

There's no point of contention. You were gratuitously insulting the characters, that's all it was. Don't do that. I'd say that I don't care if it's because you've been reading shit translations and it gave you misconceptions, but that'd be a lie. I do care, and it makes it worse, because then you're the kind of "fan" that's got the gall to argue about Berserk on the Internet like he knows what he's talking about while he's too much of a cheapskate to actually buy the manga and remunerate the author. I can't stand these people, who call themselves fans but don't pay for the work. And as it turns out, it's a bannable offense on this forum.

Oh and really, just continuously repeating to me what I'd just told you isn't a particularly brilliant line of argumentation. I tell you it's puerile to insult characters in a story, you tell me to grow up? Really?

Who is we? You're the admin of a discussion board, not Miura's spokesperson and while I appreciate you doing your best to help me and provide a place to discuss Berserk, I am in no way obligated to count myself among the collective opinions that you seem to think are orbiting around your brain.

"The readers", as plainly stated in the text you're quoting. I don't understand you: do you as a reader not already know about Guts & Casca's past? Will you not be able to judge for yourself whether going after Griffith is worthy whenever it comes to it? Your sentence was poorly constructed, to the point of making little sense. My statement wasn't meant to negate anyone's individuality, far from it, but of course with you things are never that simple. I think those strange accusations you're leveling against me are distracting you from what I'm actually trying to tell you.

And while you're at it, stop with the statements of absolution, so I can actually have a two-way discussion with you and not constantly resist the urge to say things that might get me into serious trouble. And at least have the decency to say it to me directly, not in parenthesis.

So you can't read or respond to something if it's in parentheses? That's just a matter of sentence construction dude, what the hell is wrong with you seriously? And I hate to break it to you but you're already in serious trouble.

None of what you just said is anything I am arguing aside from the "concocted scenario".

You did argue against it, including by virtue of pushing your little scenario as the only way Guts & Casca's relationship and/or past could be communicated and understood by the others.

Enough of these attempts at using dead-end methods of arguing your points. I don't fall for them, I don't listen to them, and I don't acknowledge them as valid, but I will acknowledge their invalidity.

Yeah, don't worry I think anybody reading this has come to the conclusion that you're clearly not listening to anything anyone else is telling you. To the question: "Won't Guts be unwilling to kill his son?", your reply is: "I can't hear you, I'm plugging my ears!" Fine.

Oops.  Guess that means Casca will be even more pissed off when she finds out she only gets to see him once a month instead of twice. This is starting to feel like a custody battle.

Hilarious joke there! A real knee-slapper. Seriously though, not knowing basic stuff like the moon cycle? You could have at least checked it on the Internet or something.

Last we saw her, she couldn't make the decision as to whether she loved Guts or Griffith

Jesus, your levels of incomprehension are really off the charts. Like Gummyskull told you, Casca loved Guts, not Griffith. But she was willing to sacrifice her life and happiness in order to alleviate Griffith's own broken life. That's really basic reading comprehension, basic plot points that require little to no thought. It shows the kind of woman Casca was, devoted and self-sacrificing. I am frankly astonished that you don't understand this.

Don't tell me you feel I'm being disingenuous, because I will throw it back in your face as far as this debate is concerned.

Oh no, I'm beyond that, now I know you're suffering from a form of mental debilitation. I'm afraid I'm not competent to determine its exact type, but you might want to consult a professional about it.

Because the characters help to tell the story. If you can't grasp what I meant by "lens-seers" and other sensical stuff like that, then I can assure you, you'll be the only one not going anywhere.

The characters help to tell the story, yes. But not in the mad way you are inferring. Again, you can say whatever you want, this discussion is out there for all to see, and all can tell your notions are a bunch of pseudo-intellectual nonsense.

Relevancy, your honor?

Maybe learning to better express yourself would help you better understand what you read. And aside from that, the affect/effect mistake gets on my nerves with how widespread it is.

Well since you agree with so much, why don't you stop pretending to be the teacher, and I the student in your imaginary classroom.

I think you're confusing the words "argued" and "agreed" here. Also, your inferiority complex is not my problem and I wish you didn't lay it all on me.

Saying otherwise means other people take different levels of convincing to believe what a person says.

So you've never believed what anyone told you unless you probed their mind to see for yourself? Great life you must be living. Regardless, as I've already mentioned, even simply looking at the case of Rickert in volume 22 is enough to disprove this claim of yours.

*Slap*

Don't troll me if you want me to take you seriously. That's why my responses are becoming less professional and more geared toward poking fun at their absurdities, while using them to aid my own arguments.

*caress*



Shhhh, no more tears, it's Ok now.