Author Topic: How willpower, causality, and evil power affect the transformation  (Read 1075 times)

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Offline Bruth

I've searched through the forums and didn't find a specific topic about this.
We've only seen Griffith's metamorphosis from human to God Hand, and we know what Rosine and the Count were like before their transformation too. Because of this, the topic is purely speculative given that we don't know enough about what apostles were like when they were human.

That said, I think that there is a clear correlation between willpower and the eventual strength of an apostle. "Evil Power" obviously has a large degree of influence on this as well, and it might be related. Regardless of that, we see that the most powerful apostles (Ganishka, Zodd, Locus, Grunbeld, and Irvine) are all willful and somewhat a-typical apostles (with Ganishka being a-typical because of his refusal of Griffith rather than his specific behavior). I don't believe that any of them are "good" in a traditional sense, but they are all able to resist the more base urges which dictate the actions of the lesser apostles. They aren't bloodthirsty beasts who feast on flesh. They may very well desire such things but they either suppress those urges or don't let them dictate their behavior (We don't know if Ganishka, Locus, Grunbeld, or Irvine were present during the eclipse, but I find it unlikely). This is because they all have clear goals, beyond simply living in a way in which they couldn't while they were human. So were these men exceptional specimen before they became apostles (most likely) and if so, does that mean that they are like Guts? As in, were they men driven by inhuman willpower to reach their physical limits and achieve their goals, and then driven by the flows of causality to make the sacrifice in order to reach these goals.
Ultimately, I find them to be uniquely compelling characters given what we have seen of apostles to this point. Could the shift from Apostles simply being bloodthirsty monsters be a narrative tool to give more character to the villains, or will it lead to some greater plot significance involving the beherit in Guts' possession? Will a certain willful character in Guts' party use the beherit to become another upper tier apostle, to further complicate the line between good an evil?
-Sincerely,
Snail Apostle
Vestigial Finger of the God Hand

Online Walter

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Re: How willpower, causality, and evil power affect the transformation
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2016, 07:00:44 PM »
There are no hard and fast rules for the physical distinctions between apostles. I know what you're trying to convey, but I think "willpower" is a little too nebulous. I think the easiest way to understand it is that their apostle forms reflect who they were as human beings, infused with evil power. Proud warrior before? Their apostle form is a reflection of it. Slothful loser without much direction in life? Their apostle form is a reflection of it. Then there's of course the practical factor: Miura's desire to create interesting, varied character designs for his big-name apostles, and have them be distinct from the lower-tier ones.

As for their behaviors, like human beings, their appetites for depravity are varied. But they are all fundamentally evil beings, due to the infusion of evil power in their souls, and of course, the sacrifice they made.

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and we know what Rosine and the Count were like before their transformation too.

We have some indication of Locus and Grunbeld's lives before becoming apostles too, as briefly addressed in Vol 23. And it's not hard to read into Skull Knight's comments about Zodd and determine the kind of man he probably was, too.

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Will a certain willful character in Guts' party use the beherit to become another upper tier apostle, to further complicate the line between good an evil?

I don't think that line is very unclear in Berserk. And I'm  not sure who you mean, but a single apostle wouldn't be much trouble for Guts, at this point.
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Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: How willpower, causality, and evil power affect the transformation
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2016, 07:08:34 PM »
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So were these men exceptional specimen before they became apostles (most likely) and if so, does that mean that they are like Guts? As in, were they men driven by inhuman willpower to reach their physical limits and achieve their goals, and then driven by the flows of causality to make the sacrifice in order to reach these goals.

We dont know what transpired in their lives to turn them into apostles but we can guess they were all, as you say, exceptionally strong characters. A determining factor for all would-be-apostles is the strong desire to live. That, alongside the moment IOE choses is one of the triggers for the beherit.

As for whether they're exceptional for apostles, well yes. Their martial prowess is far above your average apostle. Did that make them stronger mentally and more determined back when they were humans? Maybe, maybe not. Afterall, they gave in and became apostles. You could argue its not humans who are weak but apostles because they choose the easy way out. In that aspect, Guts is superior to them.

 

Offline Bruth

Re: How willpower, causality, and evil power affect the transformation
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2016, 07:14:13 PM »
I think the easiest way to understand it is that their apostle forms reflect who they were as human beings, infused with evil power. Proud warrior before? Their apostle form is a reflection of it. Slothful loser without much direction in life? Their apostle form is a reflection of it.
In the case of Wyald, he was a frail old man who became a warrior-like apostle which reflected his inner demon with his primitive beast form to achieve his goal of "excitement and enjoyment." So perhaps it works as either a reflection of your human form, or in spite of that depending on your goal.

I agree that willpower is nebulous to describe what I'm talking about, and is kinda pointless with the information given, but speculation nonetheless
And yeah I don't mean the line of good/evil being blurry in the sense that you aren't clear who is ultimately working towards evil ends, but simply that we are now presented with characters as villains who are more sympathetic, if nothing else.

Side note, thanks for replying to my first post

Guts is superior to them.
Definitely this
-Sincerely,
Snail Apostle
Vestigial Finger of the God Hand

Offline DANGERDOOOOM

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Re: How willpower, causality, and evil power affect the transformation
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2016, 01:29:14 PM »
You could argue its not humans who are weak but apostles because they choose the easy way out. In that aspect, Guts is superior to them.
The humans are the weak ones for the majority of the time, because of how fragile they can be and easily manipulated. They chose a sacrifice to achieve instant results and become something that can make all their problems as a weak individual, disappear. The reason for the human would choose someone for a sacrifice is because they were either desperate, full of anger, seeking revenge, terrified of death, or power driven. The humans took the easy way out, not the other way around.

The apostle that is born is a direct result of their inconsideration of another's life, a sort of morality and an egoistical issue. The person who made the sacrifice in the first place is focused particularly on their own single desires and being self-centered. So at the moment in time when it comes to choose a sacrifice, for them the most moral and reasonable action to them will benefit them and only them. They sacrifice to avoid being punished (death) and their action holds little to no consequences because they are now the ones in complete control of another life. Though sometimes this isn't 100% true as we've seen with the Count having to sacrifice his daughter in order to stay alive, but ended up choosing death.

The majority of humans are weak and self-centered, but their are ones who aren't as fragile as others, and will bring consequences to the humans who chose otherwise.  :guts: