Author Topic: How do you think Berserk will end?  (Read 38114 times)

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Offline Menosgade

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2016, 12:45:18 PM »
 What I'd definitively most like to see as an ending is Casca and Guts again as a couple, without significant relationship problems. In this situation they'd probably stay in Elfhelm or in another elfs' house, such as Goddot's mine (maybe they can reform the place?) to avoid the problem of the brand as much as possible.

 I consider Casca will regain her sanity and stay with Guts. I'm also disconsidering what happens or not to Falconia, and the impact of Fantasia (the group doesn't know yet about the disastrous mainland nature).

 However, the other members of Guts' crew must be taken in the equation. Considering an optimistic ending; none of them are dead or severely injured, there are plenty of possibilities, even Puck may stop following Guts. This is how I see it:

1. Schierke may go on with Guts and Casca (if the group is dismantled) as she is still a kid and there isn't really reason for her to wander alone. That's considering the group as a whole or Guts don't have any specific good reason that motivates them to something in the mainland. Or she could stay in Elfhelm if she is accepted and finds the place pleasant, as it may be a very good place to learn magic from, as she has only been taught and developed by a single person.

2. Isidro would probably keep on following Guts, or at least return to mainland. He has a clear ambition of growing in swordsmanship, staying in Elfhelm for him may be like being stuck.

3. Serpico and Farnese have a good chance to stray from the group. Farnese wouldn't need to care for Casca anymore, and she's engaged with a noble, so they're likely to return to their homeland. Serpico would follow to protect her as he has always done. I don't think he would be so much impressed by something else to give up on that.

4. Azan would likely continue his life as a rogue knight in his lonely journey.

 Of course these are only general assumptions. They make sense, but making sense doesn't make something true, billions of things can happen and dramatically change the perceptions or course of the group or an individual.

He could become king or something but i see him at the end of his journey just going to the mountains with or without casca and sleeping.

 Personally I don't think that he as state man would fit at all. Guts doesn't care about people in general, he doesn't really get people's charm and in the current situation there no place for a king, as all banners are under Griffith.

Offline MrFlibble

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2016, 03:39:26 PM »
It is painfully obvious that Griffith has an ulterior agenda besides "running his kingdom". 

Again I'm open to Femto throwing a massive curve ball, But I don't see any evidence for it yet.

I think that's quite obvious. We, the readers, aren't meant to question Griffith's motives. We know he's evil. I've seen a lot of readers get tripped up on Falconia. They see Griffith's actions and assume he's trying to protect humanity from the monsters outside. But remember, Griffith is responsible for these monsters showing up in the first place (and thanks to a little help from SK). Now humanity is solely dependent on him. Setting fire to someone's house so that you can be the one to save them doesn't make you a hero.

He is giving humanity what they want though, subconsciously humans desire the Fantasia world and Griffith and the God Hand exist to serve human mass subconsciousness, whether individual humans suffer or not isn't relevant to mankind's desires. It's not Femto's place to question humanity's will, but if he can fulfill his own dream as well it's a win-win situation.


If I had to guess my ideal ending for Berserk would be the death of the God Hand and IOE, humanity returns to it's own devices and polytheism returns to the world, it would be interesting to see Griffith redeem himself, it's too late for complete atonement, but maybe a last ditch effort to undo his mistakes somehow would allow Guts to find some kind of peace, more so than Guts actually killing him. It would be interesting to see the Skull Knight fight Guts as well, if the Moonlight boy is Guts' son who shares Griffiths vessel, then an enmity between Guts and SK might emerge, but there isn't any reason to believe they will at the moment, besides "Wouldn't it be really really awesome?".

Offline Aazealh

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2016, 08:22:28 PM »
Again I'm open to Femto throwing a massive curve ball, But I don't see any evidence for it yet.

There's no curve ball as far as the reader is concerned. Falconia and Fantasia were engineered for a purpose, and that purpose was not "to give Griffith his kingdom". It's not even a proper kingdom, as a matter of fact, but more of a city-state. Griffith could have just ruled Midland or anything else, but the God Hand and their master maneuvered from the very beginning, from before even Femto's incarnation, in order to create the current situation. Do you think it was a coincidence we saw a double page for each member of the God Hand when Fantasia came to be? It was not. Femto was not incarnated just so that he could have tea with Charlotte and play at being a good ruler. Femto, the wings of darkness. Femto, the one who will bring about the age of darkness. Femto whose soul is infused with evil. It is beyond naive at this point in the series to question whether the God Hand is anything but evil and scheming something sinister. And Femto is the God Hand's vanguard. So really, the evidence you're looking for is spread all over the series, and it starts in the Black Swordsman arc.

And if that wasn't enough, just think about the current situation. Basically 99% of what's left of humanity is living huddled inside those walls, you don't think that's the least bit suspicious? You don't think the narrative is being played very specifically to maximize people's dependency on the God Hand while emphasizing that everything else, and especially the astral world, is their enemy? And what about the fact people are being protected by apostles, monstrous creatures that Berserk as a series has spent 30+ volumes establishing as enemies of mankind? Didn't Rickert's brief trip into their ghastly lair tip you off that something sketchy was going on? What about Rakshas going after Rickert's head? Not a concern? An isolated incident? Come on.

He is giving humanity what they want though, subconsciously humans desire the Fantasia world and Griffith and the God Hand exist to serve human mass subconsciousness, whether individual humans suffer or not isn't relevant to mankind's desires. It's not Femto's place to question humanity's will, but if he can fulfill his own dream as well it's a win-win situation.

Hah! Is he now? Humans desired Fantasia in the way that it persisted in their collective consciousness like a half-forgotten daydream, an ancient echo of what once was. But did humans want it like this? Did they want a supremely hostile world, one that only allows them to survive in a single place ruled over by the God Hand? Raban does not seem to think so. And neither do Rickert or Erika, and many others, I'm sure.

You say Femto and the God Hand exist to serve human mass subconsciousness, but it's really not quite that simple. For one thing, if they had no agenda, they wouldn't be interfering directly with the world like they're doing, inserting themselves into it. And they're not neutrally granting people's wishes either, there's always an evil twist to everything they do. Even the Idea of Evil in episode 83 makes it clear what it's all about (hence its name). It provides reasons for the bad things that keep happening. Saying mankind's suffering is irrelevant means you're fundamentally mistaken about the nature of the Idea of Evil and its servants.

Offline Menosgade

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2016, 08:52:58 PM »
He is giving humanity what they want though, subconsciously humans desire the Fantasia world and Griffith and the God Hand exist to serve human mass subconsciousness, whether individual humans suffer or not isn't relevant to mankind's desires. It's not Femto's place to question humanity's will, but if he can fulfill his own dream as well it's a win-win situation.

 How would humanity ever desire that? The Fantasia world is full of pain and likely inhabitable for humanity. It's a complete mess. The creatures of Fantasia themselves hardly have niches, it's survival of the biggest until there's nothing else.

 You could however be talking about the Falconian life of the Fantasia world. Prosperous, secure, organized, a place to thrive. Much more than the empire world before it, definitively. In this sense I kinda agree with you, but it doesn't seem to be IoE's purpose to give humanity what it desires, even this miraculous city was baptized in war, and has very dubious entrails. It gave for a price, Femto's birth at the eclipse, Femto's incarnation on the physical plane, Femto's participation on the war to rally his followers and the Fantasia itself, which vastly increase the numbers under his banner.

 Also, it's possible to say humanity doesn't really desire that, but desires things as they already were. People subjugating one another in a selfish world, how many peasants wouldn't want to be in the place of a noble?

 IoE for sure has more pain to bring, it's what it does. Violence, pain, desires. This brief relief humanity received makes them think positively, but this probably will make the next pain even greater, as humanity remember it the hard way. I wouldn't be surprise if few people survive Falconia.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2016, 10:26:18 PM »
How would humanity ever desire that? The Fantasia world is full of pain and likely inhabitable for humanity. It's a complete mess. The creatures of Fantasia themselves hardly have niches, it's survival of the biggest until there's nothing else.

See episode 306, but also what I just said above your post.

You could however be talking about the Falconian life of the Fantasia world. Prosperous, secure, organized, a place to thrive. Much more than the empire world before it, definitively.

If Falconia works, it's also because there's no alternative. People simply don't have a choice. Whether everyone will thrive there long term also remains to be seen. It might be that each person has their place and should keep it.

IoE for sure has more pain to bring, it's what it does. Violence, pain, desires. This brief relief humanity received makes them think positively, but this probably will make the next pain even greater, as humanity remember it the hard way. I wouldn't be surprise if few people survive Falconia.

Humanity not surviving is unlikely to be the desired outcome. Absolute control of mankind, though? That may be closer to the truth.

Offline MrFlibble

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2016, 09:25:46 PM »
There's no curve ball as far as the reader is concerned. Falconia and Fantasia were engineered for a purpose, and that purpose was not "to give Griffith his kingdom". It's not even a proper kingdom, as a matter of fact, but more of a city-state. Griffith could have just ruled Midland or anything else, but the God Hand and their master maneuvered from the very beginning, from before even Femto's incarnation, in order to create the current situation. Do you think it was a coincidence we saw a double page for each member of the God Hand when Fantasia came to be? It was not. Femto was not incarnated just so that he could have tea with Charlotte and play at being a good ruler. Femto, the wings of darkness. Femto, the one who will bring about the age of darkness. Femto whose soul is infused with evil. It is beyond naive at this point in the series to question whether the God Hand is anything but evil and scheming something sinister. And Femto is the God Hand's vanguard. So really, the evidence you're looking for is spread all over the series, and it starts in the Black Swordsman arc.

I'm not denying the God Hands malevolence, or Griffith's darker nature, such a ruthless person wouldn't be where he was if he didn't embrace evil. But he encapsulates light and dark, he is both the saviour and bane of the Berserk world, the Idea of Evil even gave him a choice "May you bring pain or salvation to makind" (Anyone who has better translations can correct me on this)



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And if that wasn't enough, just think about the current situation. Basically 99% of what's left of humanity is living huddled inside those walls, you don't think that's the least bit suspicious? You don't think the narrative is being played very specifically to maximize people's dependency on the God Hand while emphasizing that everything else, and especially the astral world, is their enemy?

The God Hands whereabouts are unknown, Midland is only dependent on Griffith. And I don't think Griffith is concerned with turning public opinion against an island of besieged witches miles away, Armed with scarecrows and a wicker man.

 
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And what about the fact people are being protected by apostles, monstrous creatures that Berserk as a series has spent 30+ volumes establishing as enemies of mankind?

The apostles that once raped and pillaged at their leisure who now direct their bloodthirstiness to defending Falconia's borders, and are safely segregated from the rest of the population in their Thunderdome. 


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What about Rakshas going after Rickert's head? Not a concern? An isolated incident? Come on.

I think Rakshas was acting on his own, he thought Rickert was easy prey and the fight got out of hand with the help of the Bakiraka, I think if Griffith really wanted to have Rickert killed he wouldn't have let Rickert and his crew escape on Garuda, he would have sent Zodd and the demon air force to pursue them. Anyway this is anecdotal, I'm not trying to attribute good intentions to the apostles or God Hand.


 
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Hah! Is he now? Humans desired Fantasia in the way that it persisted in their collective consciousness like a half-forgotten daydream, an ancient echo of what once was. But did humans want it like this? Did they want a supremely hostile world, one that only allows them to survive in a single place ruled over by the God Hand? Raban does not seem to think so. And neither do Rickert or Erika, and many others, I'm sure.

Yes they did, humans in the Berserk world desire suffering , It's kind of like a scene in one of my favourite sitcoms Red Dwarf,  Rimmer is in a perfect reality where he can experience his fantasies come to life, but as a pessimist he can't stop imagining bad things happening to him, and eventually ends up buried neck deep with jam smothered on his face to be eaten alive by ants.

In the same way the human race of the Berserk world don't wish to end their suffering , they want absurd justifications for their suffering that surpass the mundane suffering of famine, disease and destitution, fantastic gradients of suffering in the form of monsters and demons, a distopia is more vivid and realistic than a Utopia. The Milenium Falcon arc has a lot of ties to human myth and religion, Ganishka is the anti Christ/Mara/Hades, the all encompassing evil. Griffith is Jesus/Gilgamesh/Heracles, the demigod savior of mankind , and Ganishkas second incarnation represents the apocalypse, a masochistic fantasy in many religions.


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You say Femto and the God Hand exist to serve human mass subconsciousness, but it's really not quite that simple. For one thing, if they had no agenda they wouldn't be interfering directly with the world like they're doing, inserting themselves into it. And they're not neutrally granting people's wishes either, there's always an evil twist to everything they do. 

On the contrary, the God hand are probably chosen because their agendas in some way suit the Idea of Evil, self inserting themselves into God's will doesn't mean undermining it, both the IOE and the God Hand encourage free expression. "Do as thou wilt".

There's an evil twist to everything they do I agree, but most apostles who have their wishes granted are ecstatic, Rosine, Wyald, Mozgus, the snake Baron, they love being demons, there are very few apostles appealing to the God Hand to exchange their monster penis bodies. 



 
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Even the Idea of Evil in episode 83 makes it clear what it's all about (hence its name). It provides reasons for the bad things that keep happening. Saying mankind's suffering is irrelevant means you're fundamentally mistaken about the nature of the Idea of Evil and its servants.


I said individual suffering is irrelevant to the IOE, the Idea of Evil answers to the collective will of mankind, not individuals, the refugees as a collective wanted the birth of their savior Femto/Griffith, but as individuals they didn't want to be buried alive and digested by specter blobs. It's like when Isidro asks why humanity simply doesn't reject their desire to believe in fantasy and Schierke rebuts him by saying the human subconsciousness isn't something humans have any control over.



Offline Aazealh

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2016, 10:20:04 PM »
I'm not denying the God Hands malevolence, or Griffith's darker nature, such a ruthless person wouldn't be where he was if he didn't embrace evil. But he encapsulates light and dark, he is both the saviour and bane of the Berserk world, the Idea of Evil even gave him a choice "May you bring pain or salvation to makind" (Anyone who has better translations can correct me on this)

Episode 83 is not officially part of the series. It was removed from it. Also, it's been made amply clear, like by the prophecy, that the "Falcon of Light" is a deception. Lastly, the very name "Idea of Evil" should be enough to make you doubt any velleities of bringing salvation to mankind.

The God Hands whereabouts are unknown, Midland is only dependent on Griffith. And I don't think Griffith is concerned with turning public opinion against an island of besieged witches miles away, Armed with scarecrows and a wicker man.

Midland does not exist anymore. The entire astral world is not the Island of Skellig. Skellig is not just "miles away", nor is it besieged, nor should it be summarized as being "armed with scarecrows and a wicker man" (which have been destroyed anyway). And the goal isn't to turn ordinary people against the astral world so much as to cement their dependency on the God Hand. And Griffith is a member of the God Hand, lest you've forgotten. Clearly you don't seem to be arguing rationally here.
 
The apostles that once raped and pillaged at their leisure who now direct their bloodthirstiness to defending Falconia's borders, and are safely segregated from the rest of the population in their Thunderdome.

I see you have learned literally nothing from 30+ volumes establishing what the apostles' nature is. Nor from Locus' speech to Rickert about it mere episodes ago. Hilarious "thunderdome" reference, by the way.

I think Rakshas was acting on his own, he thought Rickert was easy prey and the fight got out of hand with the help of the Bakiraka, I think if Griffith really wanted to have Rickert killed he wouldn't have let Rickert and his crew escape on Garuda, he would have sent Zodd and the demon air force to pursue them. Anyway this is anecdotal, I'm not trying to attribute good intentions to the apostles or God Hand.

Just read again what you said just above. The apostles are now defending blablabla and safely segregated blablabla. This is a direct counterexample.
 
Yes they did, humans in the Berserk world desire suffering

No, you're misquoting episode 83. What the Idea of Evil says is this:

Humans desired reasons.
Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death, reason why their lives were filled with suffering, reasons why their deaths were absurd.
They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge.


Humans did not desire suffering. Please don't reply without at least making sure you know what you're talking about.

In the same way the human race of the Berserk world don't wish to end their suffering , they want absurd justifications for their suffering that surpass the mundane suffering of famine, disease and destitution, fantastic gradients of suffering in the form of monsters and demons, a distopia is more vivid and realistic than a Utopia.

Completely baseless extrapolation that seems to purposely ignore what is shown to us in the story, as well as what the Idea of Evil's philosophy is.

The Milenium Falcon arc has a lot of ties to human myth and religion, Ganishka is the anti Christ/Mara/Hades, the all encompassing evil. Griffith is Jesus/Gilgamesh/Heracles, the demigod savior of mankind , and Ganishkas second incarnation represents the apocalypse, a masochistic fantasy in many religions.

I can't believe anyone with an ounce of historical or mythological knowledge could manage to get the references this completely wrong. Griffith is so obviously meant to be a false savior that it pains me to have to point it out. Herakles? Reaaaally? And let's not even talk about the rest.

On the contrary, the God hand are probably chosen because their agendas in some way suit the Idea of Evil, self inserting themselves into God's will doesn't mean undermining it, both the IOE and the God Hand encourage free expression. "Do as thou wilt".

It's the other way around. The God Hand's entire lives as humans were conceived so that they would become what they are. That is what Griffith is told in episode 83, which you keep referring to. I also didn't say they were inserting themselves into "God's will". I said they were inserting themselves into the corporeal world. They are, by definition, doing the Idea of Evil's bidding. That's why they're called the "God Hand", the hand of god. They can do whatever they want, but they were engineered so that what they want serves the Idea of Evil's purpose.

There's an evil twist to everything they do I agree, but most apostles who have their wishes granted are ecstatic, Rosine, Wyald, Mozgus, the snake Baron, they love being demons, there are very few apostles appealing to the God Hand to exchange their monster penis bodies.

This is irrelevant to what I was saying. Yes, after being transformed into evil monsters, the evil monsters relish their evil monstrousness. Was there ever more than that to Rochine or the Count's characters? Who cares, right? Oh and by the way, Mozgus wasn't an apostle.

I said individual suffering is irrelevant to the IOE, the Idea of Evil answers to the collective will of mankind, not individuals

Individual suffering is a necessary component of mankind's suffering in general. The Idea of Evil is in each and every human's heart. Also, saying the Idea of Evil answers to the collective will of mankind is without much ground. It was created from the dark side of humanity's collective consciousness. Since then, it's weaved the destinies of men. Clearly, given how it has reshaped the world, it is a master more than a servant. A god, in fact.

So, as I was telling you earlier, why do you think the world is as it is right now? Why do you think humans are made to desperately rely on the God Hand and apostles for survival against the outside world? Why is the astral world, a force that can rival the God Hand's, made to be an absolute enemy? Humans used to know magic and could presumably live in that world, long ago. Maybe they were allied with the nice astral beings against the bad ones. But now, they blindly rely on the power of evil. A power based only on mankind. This isn't a coincidence. This isn't without reason. This is the agenda.

Offline VengeanceQuest982

Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2016, 03:33:28 AM »
...If I had to guess on how BERSERK would end I would have to say it would end with :
- The Death of The God Hand and the end of The Idea of Evil giving rise to a religious revival supplanting The Idea of Evil and The God Hand but whose action in time would cause The Idea of Evil's 2nd Coming.

Offline Aulë

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #58 on: March 16, 2016, 04:54:57 AM »
but whose action in time would cause The Idea of Evil's 2nd Coming.

I don't know how Berserk will end, and I can't guess either, but this particular ending you said would not satisfy me. Not because it's a "bad" ending but it's somewhat of the overused "everything will repeat itself" ending.

Don't misunderstand me. This ending is very fitting in many movies or stories, especially "mindfuck" ones.
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Offline VengeanceQuest982

Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2016, 07:29:58 AM »
A Line from Clive Barker's Weaveworld comes to mind when thinking about BERSERK

“And this story, having no beginning, will have no end.”

We've read and followed the journey of characters from The Blackswordsman - Falconia but this is not the beginning. The world of Berserk we've ready is but a fragment of its full tale and so it will have no true end though not in the way I or others might like it to have.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2016, 11:39:31 AM »
We've read and followed the journey of characters from The Blackswordsman - Falconia but this is not the beginning. The world of Berserk we've ready is but a fragment of its full tale and so it will have no true end though not in the way I or others might like it to have.

I don't know about that. Berserk is first and foremost the story of Guts. It started with him and so will it end.

Offline MrFlibble

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2016, 10:46:23 AM »
Episode 83 is not officially part of the series. It was removed from it.

Yeah, but by the way various characters describe the God of the Berserk world, it's obvious that it is the Idea of Evil or at least an equivalent entity. Void calls it the God born of man, Flora states the behilits were sent by a master, during the menlium ceremony both Puck and the Beherit apostle refer to a collective will demanding the rebirth of Griffith. Miura had no intention of ever letting the chapter be republished, so there is no incentive to cover up the story or retcon it.

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Also, it's been made amply clear, like by the prophecy, that the "Falcon of Light" is a deception. Lastly, the very name "Idea of Evil" should be enough to make you doubt any velleities of bringing salvation to mankind


Neither the God Hand nor Griffith are deceptive, Griffith makes no effort to hide his extraordinary abilities, nor his war demons from his human subjects, he has been legitimatised by the Pope and the princess. He is the saviour the human race asked for and he has fulfilled that task. Even apostles who are aware of Femto recognition him as the hawk of light, he appears to Zodd as a shining hawk, reincarnated Ganishka views him beneath massive wings of light.

Let me be clear that salvation doesn’t necessarily mean sunshine and unicorns, what form salvation represents is up to the human race to decide, if the desired world is one with gradients of beauty and terror, then that is the world they get. The Idea of Evil is not in of itself evil, it is the “Idea” of evil, because the human race wanted the kind of evil represented in their myths and repressed selves.


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Midland does not exist anymore. The entire astral world is not the Island of Skellig. Skellig is not just "miles away", nor is it besieged, nor should it be summarized as being "armed with scarecrows and a wicker man" (which have been destroyed anyway). And the goal isn't to turn ordinary people against the astral world so much as to cement their dependency on the God Hand. And Griffith is a member of the God Hand, lest you've forgotten. Clearly you don't seem to be arguing rationally here.

Thanks for clarifying that, I misunderstood you.
 
 
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I see you have learned literally nothing from 30+ volumes establishing what the apostles' nature is. Nor from Locus' speech to Rickert about it mere episodes ago. Hilarious "thunderdome" reference, by the way.

"If the hawk did not lead them, apostles would follow their own selfish desires" We both agree on this, apostles are hedonistic monsters.

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Just read again what you said just above. The apostles are now defending blablabla and safely segregated blablabla. This is a direct counterexample.

No it's not, the apostles may be horrible creatures but they're part of his kingdom too, he took them in and gave them a purpose, Griffith cannot change their nature, but he has extraordinary influence over them and his generals obey him without question, so long as their lust for mayhem is kindled they wont harm the humans.

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No, you're misquoting episode 83. What the Idea of Evil says is this:

Humans desired reasons.
Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death, reason why their lives were filled with suffering, reasons why their deaths were absurd.
They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge.


Humans did not desire suffering. Please don't reply without at least making sure you know what you're talking about.

Accurate translations of that chapter are hard to come by, but what I said was still accurate.


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Completely baseless extrapolation that seems to purposely ignore what is shown to us in the story, as well as what the Idea of Evil's philosophy is.

I can't believe anyone with an ounce of historical or mythological knowledge could manage to get the references this completely wrong. Griffith is so obviously meant to be a false savior that it pains me to have to point it out. Herakles? Reaaaally? And let's not even talk about the rest.


I was giving examples of demi gods that appear a lot in human culture, thematically Griffith is more like a Jesus figure than Heracles. And Griffith is a figure in the Berserk religion, as are the other God Hand. Silat calls incarnate Ganishka Shiva, his towering presence makes many characters exclaim that the “reason of the world has ended”. Ganishka was a follower of the God Hand and has turned away from them, he makes a mockery of the one true god, he wants to rein humans under an empire of terror, he is an anti christ figure, or at least the chosen enemy for Griffith to face, you can't get any more powerful than the ruler of the most powerful empire on Earth and the most powerful apostle in existence. Humans write the script and Griffith plays it out, the Skull Knight even makes reference that Griffith like a character in his own story.

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It's the other way around. The God Hand's entire lives as humans were conceived so that they would become what they are. That is what Griffith is told in episode 83, which you keep referring to. I also didn't say they were inserting themselves into "God's will". I said they were inserting themselves into the corporeal world. They are, by definition, doing the Idea of Evil's bidding. That's why they're called the "God Hand", the hand of god. They can do whatever they want, but they were engineered so that what they want serves the Idea of Evil's purpose.
 

I agree with this, the paradox of free will is a topic that comes up a lot in the Berserk.

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This is irrelevant to what I was saying. Yes, after being transformed into evil monsters, the evil monsters relish their evil monstrousness. Was there ever more than that to Rochine or the Count's characters? Who cares, right?.

Well you phrased it as if the God Hand are tricking people by turning them into demons, but they are fulfilling their desires.

There is more to them, but frankly it doesn’t matter, their enrolment involves cracking open the supressed dark emotions inside of them and sacrificing their loved ones to embrace that darker self, their malice hatred and lust are magnified, but it’s not as if it didn’t exist in the first place, Rosine and the Count wanted their loved ones dead for betraying them.



 
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Individual suffering is a necessary component of mankind's suffering in general. The Idea of Evil is in each and every human's heart. Also, saying the Idea of Evil answers to the collective will of mankind is without much ground. It was created from the dark side of humanity's collective consciousness. Since then, it's weaved the destinies of men. Clearly, given how it has reshaped the world, it is a master more than a servant. A god, in fact.

But it does not act out of selfishness, everything it does is in accordance with the wishes of humanity, it has no individual will. Just because it’s powerful doesn’t mean it’s a dictator.

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So, as I was telling you earlier, why do you think the world is as it is right now? ( Human will) Why do you think humans are made to desperately rely on the God Hand and apostles for survival against the outside world? (Because humans are driven to embrace monotheism)


Why is the astral world, a force that can rival the God Hand's, made to be an absolute enemy? (Creatures on their own are not the abosulte enemy of the God Hand.)


 Humans used to know magic and could presumably live in that world, long ago. Maybe they were allied with the nice astral beings against the bad ones. But now, they blindly rely on the power of evil. A power based only on mankind. This isn't a coincidence. This isn't without reason. This is the agenda.


It’s not the astral world itself that is at odds with the God Hand, rather the agents on the spectrum that they exist which are at odds with their desires, witches in Berserk view magic as a pursuit of knowledge and understanding of the worlds beyond the physical realm, the polytheistic gods represent elemental forces of nature, the magic of the god hand in contrast is centered around the fulfillment of human will, the Holy See acts as a proxy to suppress the influence of Polytheism and magic for this reason. In short the astral beings act in favour of the forces of nature and not human nature. Also The God Hand can only govern the physical world, they have no control of the astral world, giving figures like Flora, SK and to a lesser extent Guts the ability to fight against them.


I think where we differ is that you believe the God Hand are lying to the world, they’re pretending to act in the interests of humanity but are secretly plotting to create hell on Earth, and Griffith is waiting reveal his grand deception.

And I think there is no deception in either the God Hand or Griffith, that fantasia is something humans truly wanted, and Griffiths goal is to create a kingdom where is subjects live in happiness, not to suddenly turn cruel and rule them like a dictator.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 12:03:23 PM by Wenliinvictus »

Offline Lithrael

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2016, 01:41:49 PM »
I think where we differ is that you believe the God Hand are lying to the world, they’re pretending to act in the interests of humanity but are secretly plotting to create hell on Earth, and Griffith is waiting reveal his grand deception.

And I think there is no deception in either the God Hand or Griffith, that fantasia is something humans truly wanted, and Griffiths goal is to create a kingdom where is subjects live in happiness, not to suddenly turn cruel and rule them like a dictator.

You are mistaken.  Griffith is not even slightly a Jesus figure.  He's an antichrist figure.  Like, plain as day he's an antichrist figure.  He's even got a powerful classic-vampire Charisma field that forces humans to feel like they totally love and trust this guy while they are near him.  He's not even a Veidt-like guy doing all this terrible shit because he believes it is necessary to save humanity, or a Beherit-Apostle-like guy doing it because he believes the world is too awful and someone needs to burn it all down and try something else.  The very last time he genuinely thought about other people was when the God Hand suggested that giving up his dreams would mean that those who had fallen in his struggle in the past would have died in vain, and that made him feel terrible.  And he saved himself from the idea of having led friends to die in vain for his now-failed dream, by murdering more friends to keep his dream going.  It was a perverse way to deal with that pain.  And even that pain was burned away when he became Femto.  It's gone.  He's in it for himself now.  If there are happy people it's because he wants pet happy people.   

You say there is no deception but has he said "By the way, the way the countryside is filled with monsters now?  Yep, down to me, part of my big plan, it'll all be for the best I promise?" It's a pretty big lie of omission.  As Delta Phi and others in the past have said: rescuing people from harm you've caused entirely on purpose expressly so that you can rescue them and thus gain their gratitude?  It is an evil act.  If you set fire to someone's house, and then save them from the fire - and let them believe you have just saved them from a freak accident - that is a deception

I don't understand how you can think that a plan whose steps include causing 99% of the world to be overrun with fuckoff bloodthirsty fantasy monsters is in the interests of humanity.  Unless you're casting Griffith as Noah and his fancy little city is Noah's Ark, with the entire rest of the world drowned.  Drowned in powerful, bloodthirsty fantasy monsters. 

If you're interested in the Idea of Evil's endgame specifically, I made an IOE post over in aiguille's thread the other day that's more or less pointed at that question.  http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14962.msg239865#msg239865
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 04:08:53 PM by Lithrael »

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2016, 02:04:12 PM »
Seriously, Wenliinvictus, you're as blind as the people within Falconia's walls.

Offline MrFlibble

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2016, 11:55:44 AM »
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You are mistaken.  Griffith is not even slightly a Jesus figure.  He's an antichrist figure.  Like, plain as day he's an antichrist figure.  He's even got a powerful classic-vampire Charisma field that forces humans to feel like they totally love and trust this guy while they are near him. 

That’s because humans instinctively recognize him as their desired savior, even Guts, the man that has the most reason in the world to hate Griffith is not immune to this effect, Miura spells it out very clearly when Griffith is reborn. Where does the deception come in?

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He's not even a Veidt-like guy doing all this terrible shit because he believes it is necessary to save humanity, or a Beherit-Apostle-like guy doing it because he believes the world is too awful and someone needs to burn it all down and try something else.

He’s kind of like Vedit, he’s incredibly talented and has decided to adopt the role of a saviour despite what pain and suffering he may cause, they both have their obstacles the have to overcome, Veidt’s is the growing threat of the cold war, Griffith’s is to achieve the IOEs goal of the ideal world demanded by humanity.

 
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The very last time he genuinely thought about other people was when the God Hand suggested that giving up his dreams would mean that those who had fallen in his struggle in the past would have died in vain, and that made him feel terrible.  And he saved himself from the idea of having led friends to die in vain for his now-failed dream, by murdering more friends to keep his dream going.  It was a perverse way to deal with that pain.  And even that pain was burned away when he became Femto.  It's gone.  He's in it for himself now.  If there are happy people it's because he wants pet happy people.   

His humanity is gone, and he’s a much more transcendental entity than he was as a human, but his dream still remains, it’s all that remains of his humanity.

It wasn’t a way to deal with his pain, it was self preservation, he was at a crossroads where he was forced to choose between his comrades and his dream and he chose the latter. He’s become a God Hand so that he can carry on pursuing his that dream. He may have shed his humanity but he is still a being that pursues what he yearned for as a human, all apostles do it.


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You say there is no deception but has he said "By the way, the way the countryside is filled with monsters now?  Yep, down to me, part of my big plan, it'll all be for the best I promise?" It's a pretty big lie of omission.  As Delta Phi and others in the past have said: rescuing people from harm you've caused entirely on purpose expressly so that you can rescue them and thus gain their gratitude?  It is an evil act.  If you set fire to someone's house, and then save them from the fire - and let them believe you have just saved them from a freak accident - that is a deception. 

 I don't understand how you can think that a plan whose steps include causing 99% of the world to be overrun with fuckoff bloodthirsty fantasy monsters is in the interests of humanity.  Unless you're casting Griffith as Noah and his fancy little city is Noah's Ark, with the entire rest of the world drowned.  Drowned in powerful, bloodthirsty fantasy monsters. 

Let me put it this way then, a lunatic comes across a genie lamp, he summons the genie, the lunatic begs the him to burn his house down and the genie grants his wish, the house is cinders, and the man frolics in the rubble, is the genie being dishonest? Is the genie doing wrong by the man even though he’s compelled to obey him?

If humanity wants a world over run with fuckoff monsters as you put it, humanity gets a world with fuckoff monsters. That’s how IOE works, what humanity as a collective wants is horrifying, that is why the Abyss and the God Hand are so dangerous, they are obeying a collective will that is self-destructive, again I have to ask, where does the deception come in?


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If you're interested in the Idea of Evil's endgame specifically, I made an IOE post over in aiguille's thread the other day that's more or less pointed at that question.

I read it, and you explained it with greater clarity than I did, humanity’s reason for suffering now comes as cool ass monsters rather than the mundane and pointless suffering humanity is used to. But if you understand that why do you believe that the IOE doesn’t do what human will commands it to do?



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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2016, 03:19:06 PM »
If humanity wants a world over run with fuckoff monsters as you put it, humanity gets a world with fuckoff monsters. That’s how IOE works, what humanity as a collective wants is horrifying, that is why the Abyss and the God Hand are so dangerous, they are obeying a collective will that is self-destructive, again I have to ask, where does the deception come in?
 humanity’s reason for suffering now comes as cool ass monsters rather than the mundane and pointless suffering humanity is used to. But if you understand that why do you believe that the IOE doesn’t do what human will commands it to do?

Dude, you're really having a tough time understanding the concept of the God Hand and IOE. You seem to think that IOE and the God Hand are obeying humanties collective will. Or that they are following what humanity commands them to do. That is totally backwords.

Once upon a time, humans desired reasons for all the negative things in life. Pain, sadness, suffering, their own sensless deaths. This is where the Idea of Evil was created. However, it has become so powerful that it is now its own entity. It is not a slave to humans consciousness or anything like that. In fact, it is now controlling the destinies of mankind, to serve it's own purpose, which we as readers do not yet know to what extent.

Comparing the IOE to a genie in a bottle is just retarded. It has purposefully and specifically designed things so that the God Hand and the Apostles would come to serve it, obediently, while also doing own their own bidding and following their own path. This is where the deception comes in and it's a display of how powerful IOE is. Not only that, but since the "merger" (the overlapping of the Astral world and Corporeal world) humans must now rely on the God Hand and the Apostles to keep them safe from the dangers of the Astral world. Again, they are being deceived. Needing the truly evil beings of the world as their protectors. 

Humans are not desiring the monsters or all the pain and destruction they bring. All that is a result of the will and control that the Idea of EVIL has woven for it's own desire.  And rest assured that it is not to "create an ideal world demanded by humanity".  Do you understand this?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 07:06:52 PM by Oburi »

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2016, 06:03:51 PM »
 
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Dude, you're really having a tough time understanding the concept of the God Hand and IOE. You seem to think that IOE and the God Hand are obeying humanities collective will. Or that they are following what humanity commands them to do. That is totally backwards.

Once upon a time, humans desired reasons for all the negative things in life. Pain, sadness, suffering, their own senseless deaths. This is where the Idea of Evil was created.

Okay.

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However, it has become so powerful that it is now its own entity.

That isn’t correct, it isn’t its own entity, the IOE is a gestalt entity that obeys human will, when asked what it wants by Griffith, IOE replies “Do as I command lord Femto, my young apprentice” oh wait. No, what it actually says is “Do as thou wilt, my desire is your desire” He gives Femto the agency to carry out his task, he entrusts Griffith/Femto with saving humanity.

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  It is not a slave to humans consciousness or anything like that. In fact, it is now controlling the destinies of mankind, to serve it's own purpose, which we as readers do not yet know to what extent.

That’s because it does not have its own purpose, there is no evidence to suggest it has its own purpose. If it did why would it bother with the tedious and long task of building a quintet of demons over the span of a thousand years? Why is it dependent on behilits, sacrificial ceremonies and the God Hand to carry out its will? Why does it do nothing but grant wishes if it is selfish?

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  Comparing the IOE to a genie in a bottle is just retarded. It has purposefully and specifically designed things so that the God Hand and the Apostles would come to serve it, obediently, while also doing own their own bidding and following their own path. This is where the deception comes in and it's a display of how powerful IOE is. Not only that, but since the "merger" (the overlapping of the Astral world and Corporeal world) humans must now rely on the God Hand and the Apostles to keep them safe from the dangers of the Astral world. Again, they are being deceived. Needing the truly evil beings of the world as their protectors.


Are you saying the characters in Berserk have no agency of their own because their destinies are weaved by the Idea of Evil? It’s true the Idea of Evil weaved their destinies, but you’re only claiming it's deception because you morally object to what the IOE is doing, but this is what humans want, every character is following their own path based on their own will in the context that destiny gives them, you may view that as unfair, but it is not dishonest.


 
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  Humans are not desiring the monsters or all the pain and destruction they bring. All that is a result of the will and control that the Idea of EVIL has woven for it's own desire.


No it isn’t, you said it yourself, humans desired reasons for their suffering and the IOE was birthed from that ingrained yearning, it did not weave its own origin.


 
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  And rest assured that it is not to "create an ideal world demanded by humanity".  Do you understand this?
 

Why is it referred to as the “Desired god”, why is Griffith referred to as the “Desired”, why is Fantasia referred to as the “Desired world” somebody is desiring these things, it's undeniable.

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2016, 06:19:06 PM »

he entrusts Griffith/Femto with saving humanity.


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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2016, 07:54:18 PM »
Well this thread as derived a lot from what it's supposed to talk about and is starting to be a big waste of time imo.

I'd suggest many many reread....

Offline MrFlibble

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2016, 04:41:43 PM »
Well this thread as derived a lot from what it's supposed to talk about and is starting to be a big waste of time imo.

I'd suggest many many reread....

My bad, I shouldn't have dragged it on for this long, but I wanted to defend my views to those who made the effort to reply to me, I've enjoyed the discussion I've had, but in retrospect I should have made it my own thread.

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2016, 10:56:41 PM »
I hope you don't mind if I drag it out a bit more.  :slan: This is some pretty heavy stuff! It's been interesting and a little frustrating to think about.  :ganishka: I do believe that the IOE has a purpose of its own and that it's not in the best interests of humanity. Here are a few thoughts I had about what you were saying, Wenliinvictus.

That isn’t correct, it isn’t its own entity, the IOE is a gestalt entity that obeys human will
Just because the IOE might be a gestalt entity doesn't mean that it necessarily obeys human will. The definition of gestalt is “something that is made of many parts and yet is somehow more than or different from the combination of its parts”. I think that's the case with the IOE. I think it has become more than or different from the human desire for reasons that first birthed it.

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when asked what it wants by Griffith, IOE replies “Do as I command lord Femto, my young apprentice” oh wait. No, what it actually says is “Do as thou wilt, my desire is your desire” He gives Femto the agency to carry out his task, he entrusts Griffith/Femto with saving humanity.
That quote itself expresses that the IOE has desire. Just because it says it's desire is the same as Femto's doesn't mean it has no desire of it's own, it could just mean that their desires are the same.

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That’s because it does not have its own purpose, there is no evidence to suggest it has its own purpose. If it did why would it bother with the tedious and long task of building a quintet of demons over the span of a thousand years? Why is it dependent on behilits, sacrificial ceremonies and the God Hand to carry out its will?
All the things you mentioned, the God Hand, the beherits, the ceremonies, imply to me that the IOE DOES have it's own purpose. I just don't think a nebulous subconscious conglomeration of human will could have planned and engineered all that. I think these things suggest that it would have to have a will of it's own.

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Why is it referred to as the “Desired god”, why is Griffith referred to as the “Desired”, why is Fantasia referred to as the “Desired world” somebody is desiring these things, it's undeniable.
Then I think the God Hand are also referred to as the “Guardians of Desire”. Personally, I wonder if the use of the word desire in these cases doesn't have something to do with Buddhist beliefs about desire. Here's a short excerpt about it: “In Buddhism, desire and ignorance lie at the root of suffering. By desire, Buddhists refer to craving pleasure, material goods, and immortality, all of which are wants that can never be satisfied. As a result, desiring them can only bring suffering.” Maybe "desire" is referring to these things in context of them relating to the roots of suffering. I could be totally off base here. It was just a thought I had.

links to things I quoted:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gestalt
http://www.pbs.org/edens/thailand/buddhism.htm
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:55:25 AM by JMP »
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Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2016, 02:41:07 PM »

Then I think the God Hand are also referred to as the “Guardians of Desire”. Personally, I wonder if the use of the word desire in these cases doesn't have something to do with Buddhist beliefs about desire. Here's a short excerpt about it: “In Buddhism, desire and ignorance lie at the root of suffering. By desire, Buddhists refer to craving pleasure, material goods, and immortality, all of which are wants that can never be satisfied. As a result, desiring them can only bring suffering.” Maybe "desire" is referring to these things in context of them relating to the roots of suffering. I could be totally off base here. It was just a thought I had.


Well to me the part of a "desired" one in the story has always been imo people desperately seeking for a savior, a desired one. They just got fucked because the one they got sent is not that much of a savior when you know what he's done and that he's the one responsible for Fantasia.

Then again, people at albion wished for a savior but most of them died at the tower of Albion.

My bad, I shouldn't have dragged it on for this long, but I wanted to defend my views to those who made the effort to reply to me, I've enjoyed the discussion I've had, but in retrospect I should have made it my own thread.

Don't worry. It's nice that you defend your opinion/ideas. I just don't agree with them cause it's clear in my mind that Griffith is more of a false savior or a pretender then being a true one.

Offline CrimsonBehelit216

Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #72 on: April 14, 2016, 09:52:06 AM »
I was wondering if anyone has thought Berserk's ending might not be totally conclusive. Perhaps with Guts becoming something like the Skull Knight, opposing the God Hand for many centuries, but not being able to truly defeat them. As for closure, maybe Guts has forgiven Griffith, accepting that he has been overtaken by evil beyond his control that Guts has dedicated his life to oppose, fighting on, not for revenge, but to save humanity and Griffith from the dark forces that have driven and continue to drive horrible events.

I dare imagine the final panels showing Guts, donned in mystical armor, carrying his Dragon Slayer, and leaving behind an older Schierke's house as he rides into the distance, reminiscing on why he continues his struggle, remembering times he shared with friends and loved ones; Pippin, Judeau, Rickert, Isidro, Serpico, Farnese, Casca, and even Griffith. He thinks about the Skull Knight, wondering if he had similar motivations for living this kind of life. Nevertheless, though he admits fighting enemies his sword cannot reach, for the sake of these friends and loved ones, he declares he will never give up. Finally, he recalls one moment in the far distant past, where Griffith tells him that in this world some people born are like keys that move the world and exist having no connection to the social hierarchy established by man.

As for the events leading up to such an ending, I cannot imagine in anyway that I feel would serve the story of Berserk in a good way. Regardless, I trust in Kentaro Miura to deliver a satisfying ending. Berserk has become my favorite literature across all media, and I believe the author will continue to show his brilliance even til Berserk's conclusion.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 10:02:12 AM by CrimsonBehelit216 »

Offline Delta Phi

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2016, 05:48:04 PM »
I was wondering if anyone has thought Berserk's ending might not be totally conclusive.

I really want Guts to have closure. He's been struggling for so long, it would be very nice for him to be able to settle down with Casca in the end. But I've been keeping my mind open to the idea that the IoE won't be destroyed. I could see causality leading up to a pivotal moment where the God Hand are defeated by our heroes due to their existence in the physical world. The immediate threat will end, Guts and Casca will finish off Griffith/Femto, but the IoE, still in the deepest layers of the world (if that's how things still work), will be forced to restart it's process of creating another God Hand. Witches and magic users would proliferate to help deal with the state of the world, and who knows, maybe the world layers begin to rebuild themselves.

So there's finality for our heroes, specifically Guts, but the story is open ended, so to speak, and spiral of karma continues on a new generation 1000 years in the making (not that I'd expect there to be a sequel, mind you).

The only reason why I've entertained an idea like this is because I just can't imagine how the IoE can be destroyed (or if it even exists in the same capacity that episode 83 shows us).

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Re: How do you think Berserk will end?
« Reply #74 on: April 14, 2016, 06:26:03 PM »
I was wondering if anyone has thought Berserk's ending might not be totally conclusive. Perhaps with Guts becoming something like the Skull Knight, opposing the God Hand for many centuries, but not being able to truly defeat them

Miura could have chosen to tell his tale from any point in the history of the world that he's developed. I believe there's a reason he chose to tell this period of it, and it's probably going to be more conclusive than what you propose. Furthermore, from a storytelling perspective, if Guts becomes something like the Skullknight or Zodd, he's already lost. I don't think Miura will take that road.
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