The FloraCast: Women's Berserk discussion

[Gummyskull]

I have a lot to say and not enough time to do it so I only responded to a few posts...

For what it's worth, I don't agree with Grail's assessment that "if you believe in equal rights for men and women" that automatically makes you a feminist. That's like saying "If you believe in Jesus then you're a Christian", even though Christianity has many different denominations, each with their own traditions and creeds, some more radical than others. I also resent the term 'feminist' because it places emphasis on one sex over the other, thus undermining its own point. Surely, if we're looking for a better term, it would be germane to use something like 'equalist' instead?

You're question is a pretty common one so I'll refer you to a few links first.
Feminisist strive for the empowerment, equal treatment of women in an patriarchal society, and the dismantling of patriarchy as a whole. Because it is a movement concerned primarily about women the term is going to have a feminine slant.
Plus egalitarianism is it's own thing, and there is no reason you can't be both a feminist and an egalitarian.
There are a lot of problems with the feminism: it has a continued history of racism (Which is why womanism exists) and transphobia , it can be horribly Eurocentric, it has an awful habit of shaming women who are willingly involved in the sex industry, etc. But I don't think the term itself is one of them.

As I mention on the podcast, Tumblr isn’t the scholarly center that SK.net strives to be. But you are starting to see people who are investing in the series and taking a serious look at character relationships and important events, which is something I’m excited about. While scans are unfortunately rampant, I think that encouraging analysis will help to curb that, which is what I and some other users are trying to do. That said, I’m not going to sit here and defend somebody else’s words, but I’d also entreat you to understand that Tumblr is playing catch-up with SK.net right now. Baby steps, baby steps.

This is exactly how I feel. Tumblr isn't perfect, it certainly isn't a lost gem of deep Berserk analysis. But everyone keep in mind that not everyone there is as familiar with the series as we are and have not had as much time for their knowledge of the subject to evolve. I see the enthusiasm as very promising! Observing this slow change in the fanbase is also very refreshing, I love reading new perspectives even if I don't always agree with them.
 
But it still remains that for all the interesting posts I see, there are many more of this quality. A big issue with the tumblr fandom I really want to see die off is the rampant hatred towards Griffith. If you posted about him in a tone that reflected anything other than hatred you get attacked.  Some users who wanted to post about him his character had to start using an entire different tag for their posts to avoid drama. I don't even think Guts shares this contempt.

Talking about this makes me feel ridiculous. Tumblr fandoms are ridiculous.

Anyway. I'll reply more later. I am really enjoying what everyone is saying and appreciate the varied feedback. 

[Lithrael]

I finally got to listen!  Thanks, Grail and Gummy, for including me in the podcast.  Time absolutely flew by.

On the possibility of Theresia coming back: it would be funny (and I would greatly enjoy it), but it wouldn't really accomplish anything. Theresia, no matter how hard she could have trained, could never pose a serious threat to Guts. I think that last scene with her is there to show us how easy it is for humans to get embroiled into a quest of revenge, like Guts.

I agree about her purpose in the story.  But I never meant to suggest she'd come back like Inigo Montoya!  I always pictured something more like getting someone/thing else to go after Guts on her behalf. 

I don't think I knew how long Lith had been reading Berserk. Lost Children-era predates me by a few years. I started reading around the time Vol 18 was published in Japan.

Oh, you still have me beat by quite a bit.  I started reading regularly right before Slan showed up in the Qliphoth, so, early 2003.  Before that I just had the Lost Children arc volumes.  I'd bought them off the internet around '01 after watching the '97 anime and getting an enthusiastic manga rec from TheSkyTraveller.  We attended the same art school; she was already a dedicated fan of the Berserk manga and let me know how awesome it was. 

So my very first impression of the Berserk manga was cracking open volume 14 and being presented with the flat of Guts' sword covered with squished bee-fairies. 

For what it's worth, I don't agree with Grail's assessment that "if you believe in equal rights for men and women" that automatically makes you a feminist. That's like saying "If you believe in Jesus then you're a Christian", even though Christianity has many different denominations, each with their own traditions and creeds, some more radical than others.

Funny enough this analogy seems completely appropriate to me.  Believing in equal rights in a relatively patriarchal society makes you a feminist and there are 32 flavors of feminism, just as believing in Jesus makes you a Christian and there are 57 varieties of Christianity. 

There are weird man-hating old-maid angry-lesbian connotations that make people shy away from the term, but that is not the term's fault.  The extreme fringes are magnified, reinforced and occasionally kept alive outside of the scope of their own history by the same sort of media that drew suffragists as ugly women beating up men and failing to cook them dinner.  A webpage opening with the declaration that "feminism exists as a defender of the selfish sexual and reproductive interests of aging and/or unattractive women" is in the top ten google links for "history of feminism."

I notice the same sort of trends among science-haters, pointing out what tremendous and wrongheaded dicks many early scientists were, how lots of people thought eugenics might be a great idea there for a while, etc, as though any of that has fuck-all to do with the validity of the sort of modern science that gets GPS satellites in orbit.  They like to claim that anything useful is engineering and has nothing to do with science, a bit like the claim that any useful social movement is egalitarianism and has nothing to do with feminism - where in reality the two work so closely hand-in-hand that it's often difficult to tell them apart.

Hearing everything in the show has made me curious about quality Tumblr posts. Could you guys link to a few memorable ones in this thread?

I'm a little curious about this too.  I enjoy Tumblr, but it's next to useless as a place to have a conversation with more than one other person.  Comment trees are built directly by adding comments to a reblog of a post, and any branches that occur along the way are effectively lost.  A popular post may have a cascade of twenty comments in the body of the post, and 10,000 notes with 500 other comments scattered throughout with no good way to find or get to any of them.  It's as if someone makes a speech in a crowded cafeteria, and friends at each table discuss it, but a latecomer only gets to see what the popular kids' table had to say about it.

[puella]

It's very nice to hear you girls talk!

I remember Miura once said that it's hard for him to describe female characters' mentality.
I think it could be a good avenue for the Floracast to explore.
This is what we, the outnumbered female members, can do for the manga.

Also, as a woman, I've always thought that Casca is not ideal because she's too devoted!

[Grail]

I'm a little curious about this too.  I enjoy Tumblr, but it's next to useless as a place to have a conversation with more than one other person.  Comment trees are built directly by adding comments to a reblog of a post, and any branches that occur along the way are effectively lost.  A popular post may have a cascade of twenty comments in the body of the post, and 10,000 notes with 500 other comments scattered throughout with no good way to find or get to any of them.  It's as if someone makes a speech in a crowded cafeteria, and friends at each table discuss it, but a latecomer only gets to see what the popular kids' table had to say about it.

Yeah, the medium doesn't lend itself very well to lengthy back-and-forths. It's interesting to see how people put up with it to interact with other fans, though. Like you guys mentioned on the podcast, it probably has to do with Tumblr being a one-stop-shop for just about anything you can enjoy, so why not pack Berserk discussion in there with the baby sloth gifs and food porn? I guess it has less to do with efficiency and more about convenience.

It's very nice to hear you girls talk!

I remember Miura once said that it's hard for him to describe female characters' mentality.
I think it could be a good avenue for the Floracast to explore.
This is what we, the outnumbered female members, can do for the manga.

Thanks very much Puella! I'm very pleased to hear you enjoyed the podcast. I would definitely like to do more to expand on the perspectives of women in the series and how they match up with those of female readers. I think it'll be especially fun to try when we get to Sonia and Schierke!

Also, as a woman, I've always thought that Casca is not ideal because she's too devoted!

I understand what you mean, and as much as I enjoyed Casca's story in the Golden Age arc, I'm looking forward to seeing her pursue personally-driven goals when she makes her glorious comeback. That in itself might make for a very lengthy FloraCast, I would think.

[Nomad]

Just finished listening and thank you and everyone involved in making this.  For the record, That intro had my drink coming out of my nose several times.  Well done good sir...Well done.  Couldn't have asked for a better one myself.

My one assumption regarding the Casca rape and comments read in the past, was the lack of observation between what was really going on VS. The thought of knowing Casca's deep feelings (not necessarily love) towards Griffith.  And turning a blind eye onto the moment itself with an appetizer of chopped questions that could relate towards those feelings in particular without giving any thought of her seeing herself being raped at the time?  I'm not one to get deep into this, and by any means I am trying to explain reasons for those comments in the past... Simply my one logical explanation towards the issue that went through my head.  Or it could just a the typical Bro response of "Yeah dude... She loved the D". Who knows... We can be pigs.

Favorite girl on girl interaction would be Flora and Schierke.  Short lived, but made me wonder what was life with those two. 

Again, thank you all 3 for the cast, and look forward to hear some more in a near future.

[Griffith]

FINALLY got a chance to fire this up today and give it a dedicated listen and I was not disappointed. Loved the focus on female characters, perspectives and analysis, especially since a lot of those perspectives were new to me, eschewed the obvious, and gave me a new perspective on those subjects and the series in general. It's just great hearing such a grown up Berserk conversation, the more of it the better, and the focus on feminism and women's issues pertaining to the series certainly enhanced that feeling.

Like I said, it also made me see Berserk differently in general, such as the destruction of Guts as a figure of male power. While he's certainly still powerful, he's now suffering with the responsibility of a family in danger and a broken body and mind that both betray him. It made me understand why many younger male fans, and I once was one, can't or don't want to relate to that sort of male role model as much as the old Black Swordsman. BTW, loved you all calling out the guys that really relate to Guts' physical toughness, because who can't swing a 6' slab of metal around in their teeth? Though, I'm not happy you forced me to reexamine and appreciate Nina's crappily realistic humanity.

The discussion of sexual assault and the disparity of it between men and women also made me take stock of the depictions of it in the series and how that's changed, as well as making me appreciate again what Berserk does that so few other stories don't. Such as having a main male character that was the victim of rape, and is truly affected by it in their daily life as well as their sex life, such as his breakdown with Casca, his weakness, and her love and strength for him that he needed.

The part about Casca being taken away as a character was sobering, not because I wasn't aware of it, but because I kind of take her return for granted and am probably not as invested in it as a fan that can relate to Casca as a woman, or having lost that outlet. It really is unfair, particularly with her constantly dangling there in front of us, and although that presence has been replaced with a few great female characters, I only hope her revival comes sooner still (the rationale I came to is that it's better than her being dead like the rest of the Falcons).

Well, I think that's it for my initial impressions. When the recording stopped I sincerely wished there was more (I did wait for it to repeat Gobs theme again before stopping =), and I hope you do another before too long. Now I've got to catch up with all the, sometimes looong, posts in the thread... after Shovel Knight.

[Patou244]

I really appreciate seeing a podcast like this from a female perceptive.

Just a few quick comment/observations from listening to the pod cast. About Casca's desire to maintain a distance from her troops under her  in general I sort  of disagree with. I don't think it really fits her personality to do that. One of the things about Casca that I think made the hawks respect her was that she did not put on airs of superiority because of her position and was down to earth and showed them she can be capable like they can be. After the cave incident she is shown to be sitting among some of her own troops that I was under the impression her own men and she is relaxing and talking to them while drinking wine. So I definitely believe she mingled with her troops in a camaraderie manner. Though your over all the point you made that she would not allow her self to become inebriated  around her men  so as not and in a compromising position I think is her personality. I think Casca strived hard to make herself respectful around them.

Also I think in a future pod cast it should certainly be discussed how much the Hawks admired and respected her and how exactly she came to earn that respect. That in its self is a grand feat for her to have accomplished considering how gendered the roles are in the time Berserk takes place in. I have been curious about how she got to the point where she gained their respect and admiration. When you first see Casca as a peasant girl and Griffith allows her to be a falcon some of the hawk members already apart of the group show mild disdain for her. Corkus of course was the most vocal but I find it interesting how Casca went from being a peasant girl very much regarded as a possible burden and liability due to her sex, to earning her respect among them. By the time Guts joins the hawks Corkus and his posse are intimated by Casca and do not want to provoke her (hell Casca is almost a bully toward Corkus), and the other hawks admire her skill claiming her only second to Griffith. That's a accomplishment. Did Casca accomplish this all on her own? Was Griffith heavily responsible for the other members giving her a fair chance? Was Casca's early days as member filled with Girffith lecturing the other hawks to put up with her?

Also something that you touched on that I want to expand on is how her treatment by fans now that she is broken. I find outside of this site she gets very little sympathy and she is blamed a lot. All I hear is (oh poor Guts, the love of his life hates him...that ungrateful bitch!) Complaints of Casca being ungrateful and a bitch abound in the fan community mostly due to her affect on Guts who has sacrificed everything for her run rampant. My berserk haunts besides this place is youtube, and tumblr and some lesser known ones. Those places really seem to hate her and really seem to forget that Casca actually has a legitimate reason act the way she does around Guts. In one discussion I had on youtube, he expressed how annoying Casca is now that she hates Guts and he expressed she had no reason to act that way. When I reminded him that Guts assaulted her his reaction was "oh yeah...but still." Casca's ore deal is just not front and center with a lot of fans. They pardon Guts actions. This baffles me.

Another thing to bring up when it comes Miura's handling of women and men, I would like to point out Guts mature reaction to Casca having her period when he undressed her. I was impressed by how he wasn't really grossed out or derisive over her condition like I would expect a man to be in that situation. His first response was to be empathy and compassion. He does not even bring her condition to embarrass Casca the next day until she throws a punch at him and he gets mad. He even keeps her secrete the real reason she was sick when they got back to camp. I don't think any one was aware she was on her period when she fell ill. When she was apologizing to Griffith for her condition slowing everyone down I don't think any of them thought anything was wrong with her other than being feverish. I think that is an impressive angle Miura played with in regards to interactions between men and women in the manga.

I have much more to say but I'm going to bed now. LOL

[Grail]

Thanks very much for the comments, everyone. It makes me happy to see all of the different things people have taken away from our talk. It's getting me pumped for round 2!

For the record, That intro had my drink coming out of my nose several times.  Well done good sir...Well done.  Couldn't have asked for a better one myself.

When the recording stopped I sincerely wished there was more (I did wait for it to repeat Gobs theme again before stopping =)

Let me say on Gobs's behalf that he's extremely flattered that people like his Tom Jones impression. I asked him if he wanted to upload the full song to the site, but he had said something about wrenching it from his cold, dead hands. Psh, artists!

Favorite girl on girl interaction would be Flora and Schierke.  Short lived, but made me wonder what was life with those two.

I've thought about that too, and this is going to be touched on in our next podcast. The FloraCast, after all, should talk about its titular character at some point.

The part about Casca being taken away as a character was sobering, not because I wasn't aware of it, but because I kind of take her return for granted and am probably not as invested in it as a fan that can relate to Casca as a woman, or having lost that outlet.

That's an interesting point! To tell you the truth, I think I took it for granted that other readers might take it for granted, if that makes any sense. That's actually one of the reasons why I enjoy the SkullKast so much. By going through and discussing each scene, it brings out a lot of subtleties that could otherwise be overlooked. with this podcast, it's a different focus, but I hope we're able to provide the same "wow, I hadn't thought about that!" feeling for people.

About Casca's desire to maintain a distance from her troops under her  in general I sort  of disagree with. I don't think it really fits her personality to do that. One of the things about Casca that I think made the hawks respect her was that she did not put on airs of superiority because of her position and was down to earth and showed them she can be capable like they can be. After the cave incident she is shown to be sitting among some of her own troops that I was under the impression her own men and she is relaxing and talking to them while drinking wine. So I definitely believe she mingled with her troops in a camaraderie manner. Though your over all the point you made that she would not allow her self to become inebriated  around her men  so as not and in a compromising position I think is her personality. I think Casca strived hard to make herself respectful around them.

Yeah, I had remembered that scene in volume 5 incorrectly, and I'm very glad that Lith and Gummy were able to help in setting things straight. The main issue I did want to touch on was how Casca's status as a woman might prompt her to act differently than say, Guts, who's shown to be pretty casual with his men. My question was, even though Casca is seen as sort of a big sister figure by the Falcons, does that mean she can ever really be "one of the guys?" Even in her unique situation, it's hard to escape that sort of gender-based thinking.

Also something that you touched on that I want to expand on is how her treatment by fans now that she is broken. I find outside of this site she gets very little sympathy and she is blamed a lot. All I hear is (oh poor Guts, the love of his life hates him...that ungrateful bitch!) Complaints of Casca being ungrateful and a bitch abound in the fan community mostly due to her affect on Guts who has sacrificed everything for her run rampant.

That sort of attitude is a pretty widespread problem, I agree. I think it's the symptom of a larger issue that I'd like to explore more in other forms of media like video games and maybe western comics, so we'll see what the other folks will have to say!

Also, for those who are wondering when the next podcast is coming up, I don't have a set date in mind just yet. I'm slowly collecting material for the next discussion, so if anyone has a subject that hasn't already been talked about in this thread that they'd like to see when we record, please say so!

[fyuturistic]

Hello everybody, I am a new forum member. Well, I have been lurking and listening to the podcasts for about 2 years but let's forget about that lol. Anyway, I wanted to say I loved the podcast and the way you tackled feminism and its role in the story.  It really gave me a different perspective on Berserk as a whole. Although I probably should have, I never took as in depth of a look into the story from a female perspective as you all did, and it was interesting seeing you do it .

One of my requests for a future podcast would be discussing an element of a topic that has been touched on quite heavily. As you know, people have already theorized plenty as to how Casca will react to getting her memory back, but whenever I see people theorizing about this the topic it always turns to how she will feel toward Guts (in particular how she will feel about him almost losing himself to his hellhound and coming close to raping her)  and Griffith. However, I have rarely seen anybody  talking about how she will react to the idea of having had a child with Guts,  the thought of the child being corrupted by Griffith during the rape, and especially the notion of it still existing within Griffith's reincarnated body. I may be wrong but I doubt that before the eclipse she knew she was pregnant because I don't think enough time had passed from when they had sex for her to have noticed many changes in her body. It's been a while since I read that arc but I don't think it could have been too much of a time gap. Also, what kind of internal conflicts do you expect Casca to deal with when she reflects on these things? There obviously isn't anything she could have done to prevent the corruption of the baby, but do you think she will still feel partially responsible and ashamed for, at least in her mind, allowing the child to be corrupted? Will this affect her relationship with Guts in a major way. I don't believe that she is going to just stay at Elfhelm while Guts goes after Griffith, but maybe initially she will feel unworthy to travel with him as a result of such shame and they will have to overcome this obstacle for their own relationship and to make it grow stronger. And, also, will the idea of having her child within Griffith's new body make it initially hard to act against him out of maternal duty and motherly instincts?


I look forward to the next podcast and whatever you all decide to discuss. I'm sure the FloraCast will only get better in time. Walter, Aazealh, and Griffith better watch out because now the SkullKast has competition 

[Heavenly Maiden]

oh boy do I have a lot to say here, and so little time to say it in. I noticed that you ladies a couple times brought up or referenced things that I have personally said in a couple of topics about Casca. Particularly concerning her rape.

When talking about her rape you referenced examples I had used such as "degree of enjoyment" she might have experienced and my references that during the rape Casca had what I perceived in one panel as having "pouty lips" and those little sparling spheres of light surrounding her body and face through out the rape scene that I had interpreted as enjoyment. I like to point out that I am a female and I had thought these things, but as I recall during your pod cast you attributed these comments (or at least the sentiments) to the general male berserk fan, and "not getting it" do to their maleness. Well let me say that I am a female fan and I do "get it" as far as female sexuality goes but there is a big difference between real life, how female sexuality is depicted in media as well as the social assumptions that go along with female sexuality morality, and how it is often depicted  in male targeted audiences. You even brought up a hentie where a female is saying no and is getting raped and she has hearts around her d=face and is blushing. Knowing what I know about how rape is depicted in these male targeted media it is not unwarranted that one might belive that Miura was going for an ambiguous depiction of the rape scene especially given Casca's past feelings for Griffith. You even mentioned in the movie thread that in the third movie Casca was shown to reciprocate Femto's kiss. Does that make you wonder wht the development team interpreted that scene? The rape scene was done in typical hentie style in the movies right down to the excited little noises Casca makes.


 

[Walter]

it is not unwarranted that one might belive that Miura was going for an ambiguous depiction of the rape scene especially given Casca's past feelings for Griffith.

If that's what you think, then why do you even bother calling it a rape?

I like to point out that I am a female and I had thought these things, but as I recall during your pod cast you attributed these comments (or at least the sentiments) to the general male berserk fan, and "not getting it" do to their maleness.

I noticed it as well, but then again, I don't think you've ever specified your gender. It's not in your profile either.

You even mentioned in the movie thread that in the third movie Casca was shown to reciprocate Femto's kiss. Does that make you wonder wht the development team interpreted that scene? The rape scene was done in typical hentie style in the movies right down to the excited little noises Casca makes.

Why should the interpretation of other people have bearing on the original work? The anime movie team consists of people who clearly didn't "get" a number of things about the series. Just because they failed to understand one of the most important scenes in the series, I fail to see how that's supposed to be a reflection of Miura's intent.

[Lithrael]

Hello everybody, I am a new forum member. Well, I have been lurking and listening to the podcasts for about 2 years but let's forget about that lol.

Welcome!

I have rarely seen anybody  talking about how she will react to the idea of having had a child with Guts,  the thought of the child being corrupted by Griffith during the rape, and especially the notion of it still existing within Griffith's reincarnated body.

Some big issues that will certainly be fascinating to see when Miura tackles them.  The question of what exactly Casca & Guts' kid IS now, and what he will mean to them (and to Saviour Mode Griffith), has got to be the main driver of the overall plot in the story at this point.  Casca's got a lot to work through and a lot she could potentially misplace blame for...  But I personally figure, at the end of the day, Griffith just plain chose to dick them all over in the end rather than live as an invalid, and the blame lies with Fate and the God Hand's manipulation of it for getting everyone to that point and Griff for pushing the shiny red button.  Hopefully Casca will similarly find fault mainly outside of herself. 

I've never put much stock in the idea that Casca would oppose Guts' ambition for vengeance out of any lingering affection for Griffith.  But the idea that she'd oppose it if it turned out it'd kill her and Guts' kid too, well, that's the can of worms I fully expect to see play out in the story.   

[Lithrael]

I like to point out that I am a female and I had thought these things, but as I recall during your pod cast you attributed these comments (or at least the sentiments) to the general male berserk fan, and "not getting it" do to their maleness. Well let me say that I am a female fan and I do "get it" as far as female sexuality goes but there is a big difference between real life, how female sexuality is depicted in media as well as the social assumptions that go along with female sexuality morality, and how it is often depicted  in male targeted audiences.

I was assuming anyone who would confuse arousal with enjoyment or who would publicly support the idea that showing arousal was probably intended to make the scene ambiguous would be a guy, or someone unfamiliar with the current state of understanding of female sexuality.   But you make a good point that even if the reader does have a solid grasp on female sexuality, that doesn't mean the reader assumes the author has one.  However, I think you are being uncharitable to Miura to assume that because it's a trope of hentai to depict any arousal a rape victim may experience as 'enjoying it,' that's what was intended in Berserk. 

I do think the sparkles etc were clearly intended to show a physical response but I do not think the physical response was intended to introduce any ambiguity into the situation.  If the movie's dev team or any other reader misinterprets physical response as ambiguity, even if it's just due to following whatever passes for expected social convention in manga, that is their problem.   

(As I said in the podcast, on second thought I would have figured guys would have a pretty good chance of knowing that physical arousal does not equal 'wanting it' or 'enjoying it', so I'm not sure who to blame for the misunderstanding on that particular issue, besides social convention.)

[Vixen Comics]

wow. let me just say that I very pleasantly surprised by having a podcast about Berserk characters that are from the point of view of the female fans analyzing the role of the female characters in it.  I think that it was a really nice thing for the administrators to allow considering how Berserk is primarily aimed at men, but certainly has it percentage of female fans as well. There have been times where I have been in a primarily male populated forum and have been ganged up on by the members for expressing my opinion.  In a lot of places were there is an option to show whether you are male or female I leave it blank so I don't get crap for being a chick. Some predominately male targeted franchises have very territorial fans in them I am sorry to say.    So I really appreciate the administrators doing this and  giving a platform for Berserk to be analyzed through a feminine lens. You have no idea how much, as a female fan, I appreciate that. I can't wait to see more of these podcasts. 

I have not had a chance to listen to this all the way through, but I actually downloaded this onto my computer and hope have a chance to listen to it all the way through later. It seems this podcast talks about Casca a lot. I am glad. Since she has been regressed, I feel that she has been put off to the, both in the story and by fans on occasion. I think Litheral, Grail, and Gummyskull have made some really good points and observations so far, from what I have heard of this podcast.

Casca's got a lot to work through and a lot she could potentially misplace blame for

Misplace blame? Are you saying she might blame herself or place blame on Guts for some reason?