Author Topic: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?  (Read 5990 times)

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Offline Doc

What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« on: July 02, 2014, 11:35:46 AM »
Let's assume for a moment that Skull Knight hadn't gatecrashed the Eclipse. What do you think Femto had planned for Guts & Casca after the rape-scene? Do you think he was just going to let the Apostles finish them off? Do you think he would've wanted to kill Guts and/or Casca personally and perhaps even prolonged their agony rather than giving them a quick death?

There are, of course, theories that Femto would've raped Guts next, which can't necessarily be ruled out (Griffith/Femto was arguably bisexual and used sex as a means to an end, more than anything). I have my doubts about that, though. I think he knew that raping Casca was a far more traumatic way to torture Guts and exploit both their insecurities that he wouldn't need to resort to that, but who knows?

Offline Walter

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2014, 11:50:33 AM »
They would have died.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Redfield

Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2014, 07:02:26 PM »
When the events were fresh, I had a feeling that the general direction would be:

Casca-fed to demons
Guts-Griffith'possession

I felt as though a lot of the themes behind the three characters and the dynamics of their relationships up to that point were combined into a swirling, nightmarish version in the Eclipse.  Because of this, I didn't think it was outside the realm of reason that despite Guts' new status as apostle food, he might end up once more as Griffith's possession, only now as Femto.   I can't say how, or even if, that would have worked, but I wasn't writing the idea off-if Miura wanted it that way, he'd have found a way for it to make sense.

But now, taking the entire series as a whole and looking at how those character dynamics have changed over time, it's yet another question I find myself better off for not really asking.

Speculation:  I don't believe Griffith, in a narrative sense, is emotionally finished with Guts, regardless of what he said about not having any feelings.  I think the character, right now, has moved past Guts.  But I have a belief that when Guts finally faces him with the Berserk armor and the Dragonslayer, Griffith will take notice once again and begin to feel some emotion towards him as he sees that Guts has, once again, risen to the rank of an equal.  Yes, that's right.  I do not believe that Guts will be weaker than Griffith when it's time for their ultimate showdown.

Offline TerrorA

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2014, 04:45:20 AM »
Let's see, what would a sociopathic demon lord do with the people he incorrectly blames for his suffering due to his narcissistic personality disorder?

Death? Soul Destruction? Something worse?


Damn me. Damn you all

Offline Red Dingo

Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2014, 07:19:27 PM »
Honestly, I think he was just being in the in moment and doing as he wished. If the Skullknight hadn't crashed the party, then they probably would have been killed since they were marked as sacrifices. Of course that would have also meant that an essential component for his Incarnation would have been lost.

Offline Delta Phi

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2014, 08:06:32 PM »
Of course that would have also meant that an essential component for his Incarnation would have been lost.

:idea:

Offline Red Dingo

Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2014, 08:27:08 PM »
:idea:

The thing is that would mean that Guts, Casca, and the Skullknight were integral parts of its plan. Guts and Casca to conceive a Child that would be corrupted by Femto's seed while Skullknight keeps them from being sacrificed so it could be delivered to the Egg of the World Apostle at its intended time. That would kind of make me skeptical about the idea that Guts being able to struggle against causality until I realized that Idea may not have intended the SK to save him along with Casca. The only required survivor of the Eclipse would have been the mother. Hell she may not have been intended to survive the Incarnation ceremony since her role is done as far as we know.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2014, 08:49:04 PM »
I'm pretty sure the Idea of Evil didn't planned that part. And I'm pretty sure the egg apostle could have used another vessel for the incarnation of Femto, thus Guts being an unaccounted part of the strings being pulled. Should both of them had died in the eclipse, the rest would have probably happened in another way but still achieved. Well that's my opinion. Might be wrong though.

Offline Walter

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2014, 03:35:40 PM »
I'm pretty sure the Idea of Evil didn't planned that part. And I'm pretty sure the egg apostle could have used another vessel for the incarnation of Femto, thus Guts being an unaccounted part of the strings being pulled. Should both of them had died in the eclipse, the rest would have probably happened in another way but still achieved. Well that's my opinion. Might be wrong though.

You're making some pretty big leaps here, and not many are supported in the series. First of all, what makes you think the Idea of Evil didn't foresee SK intervening at the Eclipse? Is it because of what Slan says, about them not being omnniscient? Well, that's the God Hand, not the Idea of Evil. And while it's not evidence, Void's punctuated silence aftert Slan's question about whether this was foreseen or not is pretty suspicious...

Down to specifics though, the presence of Guts and Casca in Albion, as branded ones, is what activated the dormant evil there, catalyzing the Incarnation Ceremony. Their child's presence in Albion and its absorption was too perfect a scenario to be anything but a direct outcome of causality. Why are we even bothering considering alternatives? Also, Guts has also played a few major roles since the eclipse, including banishing Ganishka's fog in Vritannis. And of course there's Flora and SK's own commentary, saying Guts' band's formation was perhaps flowing along with causality, since it mirrors their own experiences in the past.

So yeah, in terms of causality, Guts wasn't intended to die at the Eclipse, just as he wasn't intended to die as a child.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2014, 04:47:34 PM »
All true my friend. I was just pointlessly speculating on the "what if" they died. I was lonely and in need of a debate.  :guts:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2014, 07:10:50 PM »
There are, of course, theories that Femto would've raped Guts next, which can't necessarily be ruled out

There are theories about this? Really? That's the first time I've heard anyone suggest it in all the years I've been reading Berserk. No offense, but knowing the characters, the story and everything, it sounds like a pretty dumb idea.

I didn't think it was outside the realm of reason that despite Guts' new status as apostle food, he might end up once more as Griffith's possession, only now as Femto.   I can't say how, or even if, that would have worked, but I wasn't writing the idea off-if Miura wanted it that way, he'd have found a way for it to make sense.

That's just not possible given how things work (Femto not having a corporeal form while Guts does, for one thing). And honestly, that really doesn't seem like something Femto would do considering how he's behaved so far in the manga.

Speculation:  I don't believe Griffith, in a narrative sense, is emotionally finished with Guts, regardless of what he said about not having any feelings.  I think the character, right now, has moved past Guts.  But I have a belief that when Guts finally faces him with the Berserk armor and the Dragonslayer, Griffith will take notice once again and begin to feel some emotion towards him as he sees that Guts has, once again, risen to the rank of an equal.  Yes, that's right.  I do not believe that Guts will be weaker than Griffith when it's time for their ultimate showdown.

You know, it's clear that if Guts were to go to Griffith and face him in Falconia, he'd take notice. It'd be preposterous not to. Would he show emotional unrest akin to what went on at the end of the Golden Age arc though? Most likely not. He's not the same being he once was. Not human anymore. That's not to say he's completely and utterly emotionless, but he is pretty damn cold-blooded, and when faced against Guts before he didn't bat an eyelash. Just made fun of him and didn't care whether he lived or died.

Now, the joker in this is the boy. Guts and Casca's son still exists within the body Griffith overtook, and he certainly does feel for both his mom and his dad. So to me it's quite clear that this is what will be the big deal when they face off again. And not just on Griffith's side, where he won't be able to control the "parasitic" emotions or even his own actions (see volume 22), but also on Guts (and Casca?)'s side. Would you go through with killing your sworn enemy if that also meant killing your son? I tell you now: you better prepare the tissues because I bet you this won't go down without tears.

And finally, I also don't think Guts will ever be evenly matched against Femto. The power differential between the two is just too big. But that's what makes Berserk feel so epic, the complete imbalance of power between the opposing parties. That's why it's so good when Guts wins, because he's never up against an easy challenge.

Honestly, I think he was just being in the in moment and doing as he wished. If the Skullknight hadn't crashed the party, then they probably would have been killed since they were marked as sacrifices. Of course that would have also meant that an essential component for his Incarnation would have been lost.

I think that's by far the most likely and most sensible hypothesis. As for a key component of the Incarnation ceremony being lost, well, it's not like Femto had to know that. Consciously or not, the members of the God Hand are the foremost agents of the Idea of Evil.

The thing is that would mean that Guts, Casca, and the Skullknight were integral parts of its plan. Guts and Casca to conceive a Child that would be corrupted by Femto's seed while Skullknight keeps them from being sacrificed so it could be delivered to the Egg of the World Apostle at its intended time. That would kind of make me skeptical about the idea that Guts being able to struggle against causality until I realized that Idea may not have intended the SK to save him along with Casca. The only required survivor of the Eclipse would have been the mother. Hell she may not have been intended to survive the Incarnation ceremony since her role is done as far as we know.

That is not a bad reflexion, and I would add two things to it:

1) The fact Guts can under very specific circumstances struggle against causality is because he exists within the Interstice between the corporeal and astral worlds, not because "he should've died and cheated fate".
2) Struggling against causality, and specifically trying to derail the Idea of Evil's plans, is not a particularly easy thing to do. Exhibit A: Volume 34, the Skull Knight's secret weapon against the God Hand was actually just what was needed in order for the God Hand's plans to come to fruition.

I'm pretty sure the Idea of Evil didn't planned that part. And I'm pretty sure the egg apostle could have used another vessel for the incarnation of Femto

Could you please remind of me the episode's title for when the Beherit Apostle swallowed the Demon Child?

Offline Doc

Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2014, 12:49:45 PM »
There are theories about this? Really? That's the first time I've heard anyone suggest it in all the years I've been reading Berserk. No offense, but knowing the characters, the story and everything, it sounds like a pretty dumb idea.

Hello, Aaz.

You obviously haven't frequented the same places I have, then, and more power to you for that! And no offence taken, this isn't a particular theory that I subscribe to. Another one I've read before is that during Griffith's metamorphosis he learned about Guts' childhood and that's why he used the rape trauma against him with Casca, which again I'm not espousing. We're given no indication that Femto has that omniscient level of power. Thought I'd throw it out there anyway, if only for people to refute it.

Offline Delta Phi

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2014, 03:13:38 PM »
You obviously haven't frequented the same places I have. . .


Why visit the slums when you've got the penthouse suite?

Another one I've read before is that during Griffith's metamorphosis he learned about Guts' childhood and that's why he used the rape trauma against him with Casca, which again I'm not espousing.

Pretty bizarre and unfounded.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 06:24:14 PM by Delta Phi »

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2014, 05:02:39 PM »

Could you please remind of me the episode's title for when the Beherit Apostle swallowed the Demon Child?

Shadow of idea?

I know I'm not right with what I said. Just bullshit speculation in a scenario that will never happen anyway. Sorry for the rambling, I really was just bored.  :griffnotevil:

Offline Mammon

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2014, 02:33:31 PM »
Hello, Aaz.

You obviously haven't frequented the same places I have, then, and more power to you for that! And no offence taken, this isn't a particular theory that I subscribe to. Another one I've read before is that during Griffith's metamorphosis he learned about Guts' childhood and that's why he used the rape trauma against him with Casca, which again I'm not espousing. We're given no indication that Femto has that omniscient level of power. Thought I'd throw it out there anyway, if only for people to refute it.
I bet "Casca obviously enjoyed being raped!!" is a daily topic there  :ubik:

Offline Red Dingo

Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2014, 06:13:23 PM »
1) The fact Guts can under very specific circumstances struggle against causality is because he exists within the Interstice between the corporeal and astral worlds, not because "he should've died and cheated fate".

I thought his ability to struggle against causality extended from how he was born so close to death and his existence in the Interstice was part of what gave him an edge against the Apostles.

Quote
2) Struggling against causality, and specifically trying to derail the Idea of Evil's plans, is not a particularly easy thing to do. Exhibit A: Volume 34, the Skull Knight's secret weapon against the God Hand was actually just what was needed in order for the God Hand's plans to come to fruition.

To be honest though, forging a weapon out of the very artifacts the Idea and its Hand use to manipulate reality probably wasn't a good idea when you really think about it. It's kind of like Gondor trying to use the One Ring as a weapon against Sauron.

Offline Walter

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2014, 06:49:32 PM »
I thought his ability to struggle against causality extended from how he was born so close to death and his existence in the Interstice was part of what gave him an edge against the Apostles.

Nope. He's just a guy who has been empowered by struggling against death his entire life.


Quote
To be honest though, forging a weapon out of the very artifacts the Idea and its Hand use to manipulate reality probably wasn't a good idea when you really think about it. It's kind of like Gondor trying to use the One Ring as a weapon against Sauron.

That's not a very apt analogy, considering that the Beherit Sword's properties aren't what caused the attack to backfire. Femto could have manipulated the strike even if the weapon was composed of steel.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Red Dingo

Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2014, 02:42:17 PM »
Nope. He's just a guy who has been empowered by struggling against death his entire life.

I could have sworn that the Skull Knight commented on

Quote
That's not a very apt analogy, considering that the Beherit Sword's properties aren't what caused the attack to backfire. Femto could have manipulated the strike even if the weapon was composed of steel.

Really? I thought that the dimensional rip aspect was part of what caused Ganishka's death to catalyze Fantasia. I mean it was also the fact that Shiva was packed phantasmal energy but I'm not sure just any sword strike would have caused that body's death to change the world. Think about it. Apostles, their spawn, Daka (sp?), Pisacha, and the like normally revert to their mundane forms at death. Shiva was an Apostle who went through an artificial Beherit ceremony but it's still an Apostle at heart with energy that would normally flow back to where it came from. Killing it with just any sword strike would have just reverted it to the bodies of Ganishka and the sacrificed host of Wyndham after a really big Vortex light show. I think the dimensional manipulating aspect of the Beherit Sword allowed Femto to reverse the flow of the energy in Shiva's body, turning it into a tether that pulled the Astral and the Physical together.

TL;DR Femto could have manipulated a normal attack to kill Shiva, but only a blow from the Beherit Sword could turn Shiva in to the World Tree.

The overall point I was making though was that one would think that it would be counter intuitive to try to catch an enemy off guard with their own fate manipulating tools. Beherits are part of the designs of God Hand and the Idea and they seem to have a will of their own and properties that affect the course of events in favor of their creators. The One Ring has its own will as well and properties that make wielding it against its master to be self defeating. My point is that trying to use either against the enemy seems to be self defeating.

Offline Walter

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2014, 02:59:32 PM »
I could have sworn that the Skull Knight commented on

I think you misunderstood him, then. Where did you think he said: "you were born from a corpse so you are more powerful now." Or, "you are in the interstice, and you'll have more power over apostles" ?

Quote
Really? I thought that the dimensional rip aspect was part of what caused Ganishka's death to catalyze Fantasia.

Of course, but that's not how you were using the analogy. We aren't talking about the weapon's effectiveness to split open Ganishka. We were talking about it being used against a member of the God Hand. Under the terms of your "One Ring versus Sauron" analogy, as a weapon against the God Hand, the Beherit Sword was fundamentally ineffective because of what it's composed of. When in fact, even had SK used a steel sword, Femto could have manipulated it, and the attack would  have been futile against him. The attack being shifted into ripping Ganishka was incidental. Had SK attacked Femto out in the woods, he still could have manipulated it.

I also don't need a lecture on how Fantasia was born..

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The overall point I was making though was that one would think that it would be counter intuitive to try to catch an enemy off guard with their own fate manipulating tools.


But there's utterly no evidence that came into play in episode 304. Femto says he expected SK because he always strikes at the junction of time, not because he had secretly checked the Beherit video logs and caught SK practicing his secret weapon. The Beherit Sword technique was likely crafted to counteract the kind of defense that Void threw at SK during the Eclipse. Femto one-ups that defense by fully manipulating matter, which caught SK off guard.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Red Dingo

Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2014, 03:36:48 PM »
I think you misunderstood him, then. Where did you think he said: "you were born from a corpse so you are more powerful now." Or, "you are in the interstice, and you'll have more power over apostles" ?

His "fish struggling against the river of causality" speech. I thought the Skull Knight mentioned that Guts has been doing this ever since he was born from a corpse.

Quote
Of course, but that's not how you were using the analogy. We aren't talking about the weapon's effectiveness to split open Ganishka. We were talking about it being used against a member of the God Hand. Under the terms of your "One Ring versus Sauron" analogy, as a weapon against the God Hand, the Beherit Sword was fundamentally ineffective because of what it's composed of. When in fact, even had SK used a steel sword, Femto could have manipulated it, and the attack would  have been futile against him. The attack being shifted into ripping Ganishka was incidental. Had SK attacked Femto out in the woods, he still could have manipulated it.
Quote

Quote
But there's utterly no evidence that came into play in episode 304. Femto says he expected SK because he always strikes at the junction of time, not because he had secretly checked the Beherit video logs and caught SK practicing his secret weapon. The Beherit Sword technique was likely crafted to counteract the kind of defense that Void threw at SK during the Eclipse. Femto one-ups that defense by fully manipulating matter, which caught SK off guard.

That's kind of not what I meant. What I mean is that one would think that any attempt to use Beherits against their creator would be part of the very designs of their creator and thus self defeating. Wherever a Beherit goes is exactly where it was intended to go. How it was used is exactly how it was intended to be used, including forging a sword to cut the God Hand down. Any attempt to derail the purposes of the God Hand would only play in to furthering their goals.

Offline Walter

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Re: What did Femto have planned for Guts & Casca?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2014, 04:11:43 PM »
His "fish struggling against the river of causality" speech. I thought the Skull Knight mentioned that Guts has been doing this ever since he was born from a corpse.

It sounds like you're conflating a few different scenes into one. In volume 9, SK tells Guts that he's been evading death since his birth, so he's become quite skilled at it. It's like I said before, he's just a guy who finds ways to circumvent death, often by fighting close to the brink of death. To suggest otherwise, that he's somehow a superbeing bestowed powers since birth, would really take away from what makes Guts so special.

As for the fish analogy, you should review that scene again, and keep in context what SK is talking about (rescuing Casca and/or attacking Femto'; not beheading apostles). You're also not remembering the details of the analogy. It's about Guts perhaps being a jumping fish that obscures the moonlight's reflection on the water (imagery that's specific to the mirrored effect of the Incarnation ceremony, the moon being the incontrovertible events that are about to take place), not one that swims upstream. It's nuanced because it has a specific meaning for the upcoming event.

Quote
That's kind of not what I meant. What I mean is that one would think that any attempt to use Beherits against their creator would be part of the very designs of their creator and thus self defeating. Wherever a Beherit goes is exactly where it was intended to go. How it was used is exactly how it was intended to be used, including forging a sword to cut the God Hand down. Any attempt to derail the purposes of the God Hand would only play in to furthering their goals.

I understand your meaning, but Femto didn't need any special knowledge to counteract SK's attack. More likely, it worked that way because it was meant to.
:femto: :slan: :ubik: