Author Topic: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?  (Read 8846 times)

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Offline Hot Chic

Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« on: August 06, 2014, 10:52:26 PM »
I just got volume 6 of the golden age arc in the mail the other day and started reading it (really good volume by the way) and I am currently reading the section of the volume where Casca and Guts fall off the cliff and into the water and Guts dicovers that Casca has a fever and he tries to take care of her. It plays out almost exactly as it did in the movie and reading the manga version for the first time made me wonder, would Guts have gone to such lengths to care for any other memember of band in the same situation? I mean granted since the men in the band would be sick for a very different reason then what Caasca was suffering from (since they are men) but if Guts had been in the exact same situation with one of of his men, would he have gone as far as he to care for them as he did with Casca?

I mean, I know at this point in the story Guts has no feelings for Casca (except how annoying he finds her) so he did not go to such lengths for her because he was in love with her. But he still went pretty far considering he not really like her very much. would have he had done the same if one of the men would have dragged down a cliff and he found they could not scale back up it because they were sick with a fever? Or do think he would have been less inclined to go to such lengths for other hawks? Some how I don't see Guts stripping a fellow hawk memeber down to their skin and warming him with his body heat like he would have Casca.

Offline Walter

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2014, 11:25:35 PM »
Yes, I think he definitely would have. What's the alternative, leaving a comrade to suffer?

Also, he was closer to Casca than you seem to be aware of.
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Online Delta Phi

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2014, 01:22:42 AM »
I don't think there's too much of a question. By this point Guts has been with the Falcons for a few years. He's not bitter and detached like he was upon his arrival to the Band. I think it's safe to say his loyalty is unwavering for his comrades. I think he'd do everything within his ability to help his friends.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2014, 05:15:56 AM »
I might be wrong but maybe it was one of the first sing that he cared a lot unconsciously about Casca and happen to be there when she was in trouble. I'm not sure sure about a 100% if he would have done the same thing with another member (maybe 90% sure). Might have been different if it was a low ranking soldier. But at the same time he did warn the others not to approach him when he was fighting Boscong...

Offline IcePuck

Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2014, 11:46:01 AM »
I guess so. I mean, if someone's suffering from hypothermia and it's their life on the line, it's the prudent thing to do.

On the other hand, it could be one of those subconscious things. Like if a pretty woman drops her grocerious, there's a good likelihood you'll spring to help her, whereas if it's a guy, it's very unlikely that you will. Males and females naturally act differently with each other. Guts wouldn't have thought something along the lines of "It's a chick, so I guess it's okay to strip her... He He He. Wouldn't do this to a guy!"

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 05:13:34 PM »
There is no doubt that Guts would have tried to catch any member of the Band of the Falcon if they'd been falling off a cliff. And taking care of Casca as a woman versus taking care of a man was, if anything, a hindrance for Guts. As warriors, the guys likely had no problem seeing each other naked, that's part of life in such a setting.

However, if there is one point that could be contentious, it's the fact he warmed her up with his own body. Guts had a distaste for physical contact at the time because of what had happened with Donovan, so it might be argued that he would have been reluctant to do it, even though in the spur of the moment I'm not sure that would have come into play. What's certain is that the fact Casca had done the same for him back in the day helped make that decision a no-brainer for him. That chain of events culminates with the fact that her touch eventually helped him get over the traumatizing events of his youth.

Offline Heavenly Maiden

Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2014, 03:02:45 PM »
There is no doubt that Guts would have tried to catch any member of the Band of the Falcon if they'd been falling off a cliff. And taking care of Casca as a woman versus taking care of a man was, if anything, a hindrance for Guts. As warriors, the guys likely had no problem seeing each other naked, that's part of life in such a setting.

However, if there is one point that could be contentious, it's the fact he warmed her up with his own body. Guts had a distaste for physical contact at the time because of what had happened with Donovan, so it might be argued that he would have been reluctant to do it, even though in the spur of the moment I'm not sure that would have come into play. What's certain is that the fact Casca had done the same for him back in the day helped make that decision a no-brainer for him. That chain of events culminates with the fact that her touch eventually helped him get over the traumatizing events of his youth.

was Guts really still that repulsed by physical contact at that point? It has been forever since I have read this volume but I had thought by the the time of the three year time skip that Guts had adjusted enough by being in the band to at least comfortable with casual physical contact. When we first see him at his dual with Pazuzu he could not even take someone putting their hand on his arm with out reacting hostilely and he freaked when Pippin bodily picked him up and flung him over his shoulder to take him to the party. But after the time skip he seemed to have mellowed out enough to the point where even when a snotty nobleman put his hand on him (right after he was injured fighting Zodd) he didn't have the knee jerk reaction he typically had when he he was younger and that it this point it was only sexual contact that got him going. This is why I thought, in the hypothetical scenario where a he had a male comrade he had to take care of like Casca and he had to strip them and warm them with his body that it would be difficult for Guts since the naked skin to skin  contact would be to much like his ore deal with Donnavon. Also wasn't one of the reasons Griffith made Casca warm up Guts after suffering blood loss was because it was more acceptable for a women to warm a man in such a manner, like it was a social taboo or just plain uncomfortable for a man to warm another man.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2014, 06:08:26 PM »
was Guts really still that repulsed by physical contact at that point? It has been forever since I have read this volume but I had thought by the the time of the three year time skip that Guts had adjusted enough by being in the band to at least comfortable with casual physical contact.

Repulsed is a strong word, but warming someone's naked body with your own goes a bit beyond a pat on the shoulder. Also, in volume 10, after they make love, Guts does tell Casca that her touch is special to him.

Pazuzu

Bazūso.

This is why I thought, in the hypothetical scenario where a he had a male comrade he had to take care of like Casca and he had to strip them and warm them with his body that it would be difficult for Guts since the naked skin to skin  contact would be to much like his ore deal with Donnavon.

Well yeah, that's what I said, that his traumatic experience with Donovan (and not "Donnavon") could have made it hard for him to some extent.

Also wasn't one of the reasons Griffith made Casca warm up Guts after suffering blood loss was because it was more acceptable for a women to warm a man in such a manner, like it was a social taboo or just plain uncomfortable for a man to warm another man.

We don't have a frame of reference that indicates that this wasn't just Griffith's own bias and insensitiveness. It could have also been a pretext on his part to ensure that his most loyal follower would both do the job properly and prevent any attempts at revenge, like what Corcas tried afterwards.

Offline Hot Chic

Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2014, 08:49:08 PM »
We don't have a frame of reference that indicates that this wasn't just Griffith's own bias and insensitiveness. It could have also been a pretext on his part to ensure that his most loyal follower would both do the job properly and prevent any attempts at revenge, like what Corcas tried afterwards.

This was the middle ages though. Its not exactly known to be particularly progressive in terms of how women are viewed. Just look at the geneneral disdain and crap Casca in her role as a warrior gets from other men through out the GOlden age. I don't think Girffith was being particularly insenstive with his way of thinking that a woman's place was to serve a man with her body, even in a nonsexual way. I think you are making Griffith ouyt to be more sexist then he actually is. Especially since he allowed Caasca to be a warrior instead of a camp follower (whore) when he found her, so that indicates that Griffith does not share the same narrow view of women that others in that time had...at least as far as far as how physically capable a woman could be. Actually have you noticed that both Guts and Griffith are remarkably unsexist in genenral compared to other men of their time?

That aside why would Griffith be insensitve toward Casca in this instance? She didn't do anything to warrant that like Corcus did. I didn't get the impression Griffith was upset with her, and I don't see why he would feel the need to test her loyality in doing her job or thwarting potentical revenge seekers...do you think that Griffith feared that Casca would be among the people to try to get revenge on Guts?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 09:06:08 PM »
This was the middle ages though.

It's a fictional age in a fictional world.

I don't think Girffith was being particularly insenstive with his way of thinking that a woman's place was to serve a man with her body, even in a nonsexual way. I think you are making Griffith ouyt to be more sexist then he actually is.

Am I? She was his right-hand woman, not some random girl. I don't think saying it was insensitive is untrue (her reaction is proof enough), and I don't think his attitude in that particular context was a great display of gender equality.

Especially since he allowed Caasca to be a warrior instead of a camp follower (whore) when he found her

Now I think you're the one not representing things properly here. It was never question for Casca to be a whore.

That aside why would Griffith be insensitve toward Casca in this instance? She didn't do anything to warrant that like Corcus did. I didn't get the impression Griffith was upset with her, and I don't see why he would feel the need to test her loyality in doing her job or thwarting potentical revenge seekers...do you think that Griffith feared that Casca would be among the people to try to get revenge on Guts?

I don't think you understand what "insensitive" means. The definition of the word is "deficient in human sensibility, acuteness of feeling, or consideration." Having his second-in-command keep a wounded enemy warm at night "because it's a woman's job" shows a pretty severe lack of consideration for that person's feelings. There really isn't much to debate here. And I didn't say anything about testing her loyalty either, on the contrary... I meant that her presence could have been a way to ensure Guts' safety.

Offline Gobolatula

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2014, 12:14:12 AM »
much like his ore deal with Donnavon.
Ah yeah I remember that part! God I love this manga. So many great moments.


Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2014, 12:22:58 AM »
 :ganishka: :ganishka: :ganishka: :ganishka:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2014, 04:37:10 AM »
Ah yeah I remember that part! God I love this manga. So many great moments.
http://www.gobolatula.com/oredeal.png

:ubik:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2014, 04:45:30 PM »
Ah yeah I remember that part! God I love this manga. So many great moments.
http://www.gobolatula.com/oredeal.png

Lmao, fuckin Gobs lol

Offline NightCrawler

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2014, 05:30:07 PM »
Ah yeah I remember that part! God I love this manga. So many great moments.
http://www.gobolatula.com/oredeal.png

 :ganishka:

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Berserk isn't really "dark fantasy" either. It's plain fantasy
Miura has been very protective of Berserk

Offline Gobolatula

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2014, 04:32:22 AM »
:ganishka:

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haha thank you. I think Aaz is the one who won though. He came up with the drawing idea. I just doodled it at his request.

Offline Patou244

Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2014, 09:46:47 PM »
It's a fictional age in a fictional world.

Am I? She was his right-hand woman, not some random girl. I don't think saying it was insensitive is untrue (her reaction is proof enough), and I don't think his attitude in that particular context was a great display of gender equality.

I don't think you understand what "insensitive" means. The definition of the word is "deficient in human sensibility, acuteness of feeling, or consideration." Having his second-in-command keep a wounded enemy warm at night "because it's a woman's job" shows a pretty severe lack of consideration for that person's feelings. There really isn't much to debate here. And I didn't say anything about testing her loyalty either, on the contrary... I meant that her presence could have been a way to ensure Guts' safety.

you know I never considered this before you make a good point. I never understood why Griffith would  order her in the high handed way that he did to warm Guts using such a reason as that. And since Judo told Guts Griffith's exact words when he ordered her to warm him, it suggests he ordered her her right in front of the other men (or at the very least in front of the commanders of the hawk/falcons) which must have embarrassed her. I always kind of got annoyed with Casca's reaction (punching Guts in his wounded stomach/chest), but taking this in consideration she had a good reason to be pissed.

 
Quote
There is no doubt that Guts would have tried to catch any member of the Band of the Falcon if they'd been falling off a cliff. And taking care of Casca as a woman versus taking care of a man was, if anything, a hindrance for Guts. As warriors, the guys likely had no problem seeing each other naked, that's part of life in such a setting.

However, if there is one point that could be contentious, it's the fact he warmed her up with his own body. Guts had a distaste for physical contact at the time because of what had happened with Donovan, so it might be argued that he would have been reluctant to do it, even though in the spur of the moment I'm not sure that would have come into play.


I did not think he was that much bothered by having to touch Casca as he was with the fact that he was he was self conscience/put-out over having to undress some one who already hated him and has a history of reacting hostilely toward him and that that his stripping her would cause a volatile reaction from her...and he was right. Guts expression over contemplating
what to do for Casca:



but I did not consider his distaste for physical touch, only because I thought facial expression during those scenes came across to me on the lighter side then it being personaly unpleasant for Guts.

Also I agree Guts wouldwould have helped any one out in the same situation as Casca. It's not like after dragging who ever out of the river and finding out they had a fever he'd be like "oh your sick? Hope you make it through the night buddy, I'm climbing back up the cliff..."

The only thing I can't buy is that he would have actually warmed another man up with his own body like he did for Casca. He certainly would not have had a fellow hawk perched on his lap at the mouth of the cave like he did Casca.


Casca from Berserk. May 2014 be the year Casca fans get to see a return of her true self, the kickass warrior and leader of the Hawks/Falcons.

Offline Walter

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2014, 02:44:32 AM »
I always kind of got annoyed with Casca's reaction (punching Guts in his wounded stomach/chest), but taking this in consideration she had a good reason to be pissed.

Well, she also probably didn't like being forcefully reminded that she was unique among the group. As a woman, she can never truly be "one of the guys," particularly not when your boss orders you to lay naked with a complete stranger.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2014, 05:08:05 AM »
I did not think he was that much bothered by having to touch Casca as he was with the fact that he was he was self conscience/put-out over having to undress some one who already hated him

The fact she was a woman was a factor and that's underlined in the scene.

The only thing I can't buy is that he would have actually warmed another man up with his own body like he did for Casca. He certainly would not have had a fellow hawk perched on his lap at the mouth of the cave like he did Casca.

Who knows. In any case it's not what happened, and I'm not sure there's much of a point in speculating about it.

Offline Ratty

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2014, 06:56:22 PM »
The only thing I can't buy is that he would have actually warmed another man up with his own body like he did for Casca. He certainly would not have had a fellow hawk perched on his lap at the mouth of the cave like he did Casca.

Guts is a big man but I think a lot (most?) of the men in the Falcons would have been too large for him to do so. I think he would have warmed them with his body though it probably would have made him much more uncomfortable considering his history of abuse.

But while he might not have been able to see Donovan in her sex what about her race? She doesn't look like Donovan (who may not even have Kushan ancestry, though he looks a tad bit like some of the Bākiraka) but she does have darker skin. I've never thought that Miura made Casca of (apparent) Kushan descent** as a coincidence or out of tokenism. But perhaps to have something that subtly reminded Guts of his earlier abuse thus leading to the choking etc.

Whatever the case I am thankful for the diversity that Casca affords, it would have been truly terrible if Donovan was the most notable person of color for much of the manga/until the introduction of the largely villainous Kushan empire. And I think Miura, gifted and wise storyteller that he is, knew this.

**A thread from 2001 has a source ("my friend speaks to the Art of War sculpter regurally who's tight with Miura" - Kenoh-Sama) claiming to be close to Miura saying he made her "Mediterranean" and gave her darker skin to be "more exotic looking" http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=859.0 how much stock you want to put into what is at best a 13 year old 3rd hand account is up to you.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 08:52:04 PM by Ratty »
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2014, 11:03:42 PM »
But while he might not have been able to see Donovan in her sex what about her race? She doesn't look like Donovan (who may not even have Kushan ancestry, though he looks a tad bit like some of the Bākiraka) but she does have darker skin. I've never thought that Miura made Casca of (apparent) Kushan descent** as a coincidence or out of tokenism. But perhaps to have something that subtly reminded Guts of his earlier abuse thus leading to the choking etc.

Nothing in the manga has ever hinted at the fact Casca could be related to the Kushan empire, and Donovan definitely isn't related to it. Other than that, Casca's skin color has never been brought up in any way as a possible reminder of Donovan for Guts, so I have no idea how you came to that assumption. I mean Guts actually told her that her touch didn't bother him, so that's the complete opposite of what you're getting at. Besides, his breakdown is clearly shown to be brought about by the sexual encounter itself. It just brought the trauma back to the surface, not just the rape but also Gambino's death.

Whatever the case I am thankful for the diversity that Casca affords, it would have been truly terrible if Donovan was the most notable person of color for much of the manga/until the introduction of the largely villainous Kushan empire. And I think Miura, gifted and wise storyteller that he is, knew this.

I think Miura simply meant to show that people of various skin colors existed in that world, but wanted at the same time to conform to the "medieval" aspect of the story, which calls for a majority of white people. Having a couple people both good and bad did the job.

**A thread from 2001 has a source ("my friend speaks to the Art of War sculpter regurally who's tight with Miura" - Kenoh-Sama) claiming to be close to Miura saying he made her "Mediterranean" and gave her darker skin to be "more exotic looking" http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=859.0 how much stock you want to put into what is at best a 13 year old 3rd hand account is up to you.

This definitely isn't a reliable source of information.

Offline Ratty

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2014, 11:46:18 PM »
Nothing in the manga has ever hinted at the fact Casca could be related to the Kushan empire, and Donovan definitely isn't related to it. Other than that, Casca's skin color has never been brought up in any way as a possible reminder of Donovan for Guts, so I have no idea how you came to that assumption.

"Assumption" is much too strong a word. It's pure speculation on my part. Based on the fact that we haven't seen many other dark-skinned peoples that I can recall.
My speculation on Donovan's possible descent (though I would only ever suppose he may be partly descended rather than "fully" as it were) from the Bakiraka is based only on a few physical similarities to some of them, http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130214212056/berserk/images/f/f5/Donovan_Manga.jpg http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120211210928/berserk/es/images/3/3c/0000bakiraka.jpg (A very muscular build, possible male pattern baldness or cultural influence for fighters to have clean shaven heads.) and the fact that the Bakiraka would probably have been out and about outside the empire more than other Kushan groups we have seen.  By no means conclusive, merely speculation.


I mean Guts actually told her that her touch didn't bother him, so that's the complete opposite of what you're getting at. Besides, his breakdown is clearly shown to be brought about by the sexual encounter itself. It just brought the trauma back to the surface, not just the rape but also Gambino's death.

Yes saying it may be a slight, subconscious factor but again that's only speculation. It's entirely possible I'm reading too much into it.


I think Miura simply meant to show that people of various skin colors existed in that world, but wanted at the same time to conform to the "medieval" aspect of the story, which calls for a majority of white people. Having a couple people both good and bad did the job.

Yep. Like I said having good and bad people of color was a good move that kept it from looking like he was using negative stereotypes.

This definitely isn't a reliable source of information.

Yep, I agree. I brought it up merely because it was the closest thing I saw in the archives to someone providing an answer to what Casca's race may be. Though I don't believe it myself I thought I would mention it in the interests of thoroughness.
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Offline Walter

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2014, 12:10:00 AM »
I brought it up merely because it was the closest thing I saw in the archives to someone providing an answer to what Casca's race may be. Though I don't believe it myself I thought I would mention it in the interests of thoroughness.

If something sounds dubious, you're doing no one any favors by regurgitating it. The guy in question is a particular kind of vermin, who ripped off one of our members in a statue sale, to the tune of about $400 as I recall. So yeah, not very reliable even independent of his obvious boast about the inside scoop on Casca's skin.
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Offline Ratty

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2014, 12:16:27 AM »
If something sounds dubious, you're doing no one any favors by regurgitating it. The guy in question is a particular kind of vermin, who ripped off one of our members in a statue sale, to the tune of about $400 as I recall. So yeah, not very reliable even independent of his obvious boast about the inside scoop on Casca's skin.

Ouch that's a lot of bread. I was unaware of his history of deception and I apologize for opening any old wounds if I did so. Again I just thought I'd mention it for thoroughness though I did indicate my incredulity towards it by pointing out that it was at best a 3rd hand account from over a decade ago.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Would Guts have done that for any one else in volume 6?
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2014, 08:59:33 AM »
"Assumption" is much too strong a word. It's pure speculation on my part. Based on the fact that we haven't seen many other dark-skinned peoples that I can recall.

We have seen black people, just not in prominent roles.

My speculation on Donovan's possible descent (though I would only ever suppose he may be partly descended rather than "fully" as it were) from the Bakiraka is based only on a few physical similarities to some of them, http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130214212056/berserk/images/f/f5/Donovan_Manga.jpg http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120211210928/berserk/es/images/3/3c/0000bakiraka.jpg (A very muscular build, possible male pattern baldness or cultural influence for fighters to have clean shaven heads.) and the fact that the Bakiraka would probably have been out and about outside the empire more than other Kushan groups we have seen.  By no means conclusive, merely speculation.

You're conflating the Bakiraka, which is a clan whose members are typically lithe warriors (and look nothing at all like Donovan), with the Tapasa, a group of four elite warriors within said clan who rely solely on their physical strength to fight. Donovan was stocky, bald and reasonably muscular for a mercenary. The Tapasa are trained to the extreme and it shows on their bodies, who have become weapons themselves. This follows the philosophy of Kalaripayattu, for which hand-to-hand fighting is the final stage of learning. Anyway, aside from the fact they have no hair (probably removed because it could be a liability in battle), they have nothing in common with Donovan.