Author Topic: What if Griffith plan to kill God?  (Read 8947 times)

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Offline rayhato

What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« on: December 09, 2014, 01:08:55 PM »
Re-reading Berserk recently I was thinking about balance of powers in the whole Berserk world and get some thoughts I'd like to share with all of you.
I think most of you will agree that Guts not strong enough to wipe God Hand. What moves him? What he will do after curing Casca?

Let's assume that the Idea of Evil through the God Hand in the future will force Griffith to sacrifice his kingdom which he is so long dreamed of. Citing the fact that people are not able to obtain an ultimatum salvation, so they must feel the ultimate in suffering, what Griffith can know or guess. To be an apostle, you have to sacrifice the most dearest. It is possible that some of the apostles regret their sacrifice and this can connect them with Griffith, the idea of revenge God Hand and the destruction Idea of Evil concept in general. In this case, God Hand against Neo Band of Hawk, which seems reasonable.

Guts team is too weak, all the apostles killed by Guts himself and his followers have no chance against Neo Band of Hawk, which holds 5 strong Apostles (Zodd, Gryunberd, Irvine, Rakshasa and Locus) plus Griffith and two girls. Skull Knight must have an interest in all of events happening - he is strong enough to crush all Griffith's apostles one by one (or even together), but keeps them alive for some reason. He also let Zodd survive eclipse events, though reasons allowing him to live are unknown to us.

It is unclear what is the role of Guts in all of this. Zodd knows something about Berserker Armor that also Skull Knight knows - and it scares Zodd. When Guts and Casca were rescued from the eclipse, he was surprised and laughed in anticipation, skirmish on the Hill of Swords - an examination of Guts's strength. Both Zodd and Griffith at that time were stronger than Guts and they also let him live, and we don't know why.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2014, 01:26:20 PM »
Let's assume that the Idea of Evil through the God Hand in the future will force Griffith to sacrifice his kingdom which he is so long dreamed of.

Griffith is a member of the God Hand. He's an agent of the Idea of Evil. There is no reason to think that will change before the series' end.

In this case, God Hand against Neo Band of Hawk, which seems reasonable.

Apostles fighting against the God Hand? That definitely does not seem reasonable (or plausible) to me.

Offline rayhato

Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2014, 03:02:52 PM »
Griffith is a member of the God Hand. He's an agent of the Idea of Evil. There is no reason to think that will change before the series' end.
But at the same time Griffith partly Demon Child. We can't be 100% sure in that, can't we?

Apostles fighting against the God Hand? That definitely does not seem reasonable (or plausible) to me.
Some apostles able to act at their own will (Wyald, Ganishka), so there can be more of them. We also don't know if this behavior could be detected by other apostles, God Hand or Idea of Evil.
Now, when God Hand able to reside in human realm, not only Skull Knight or Guts can harm them.

Online Walter

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2014, 03:27:54 PM »
But at the same time Griffith partly Demon Child. We can't be 100% sure in that, can't we?

How does that assertion work with your original hypothesis, which was that Griffith himself would rebel against the wishes of the God Hand and the Idea of Evil? Are you suggesting that the child would force him to...? For... his dream?

Quote
Some apostles able to act at their own will (Wyald, Ganishka),

While this notion has always interested me, I think it's been well established that apostles can't truly rebel against the God Hand because of the nature of the master/servant relationship between apostles and the God Hand. Wyald was never a threat to anyone but the mortal Griffith, and while Ganishka schemed against Griffith, he was utterly powerless to oppose him in person. He had to take drastic measures to do anything, and even that was countered effortlessly by Femto.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2014, 06:20:54 PM »
But at the same time Griffith partly Demon Child. We can't be 100% sure in that, can't we?

Like Walter said, nothing we've seen so far indicates that the boy's interests lie in Falconia. Aside from that, I think your premise is flawed. Why would Griffith be forced to do anything against his will? That's pretty much the opposite of how the Idea of Evil and the God Hand operate.

Some apostles able to act at their own will (Wyald, Ganishka), so there can be more of them. We also don't know if this behavior could be detected by other apostles, God Hand or Idea of Evil.

Wyald and Ganishka were exceptions, and they were also both pawns in a larger story. Pawns who did exactly what they were meant to and then died like dogs. Zodd tried his luck against Femto too, remember that? During the dream prophetizing the coming of the Falcon of Light. He lost a horn and fell in line. But more generally, it's unlikely that any large group of apostles would be willing to defy the God Hand. In the same way that it's hard to imagine any member of the God Hand defying the Idea of Evil.

Offline rayhato

Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2014, 11:14:25 AM »
Why would Griffith be forced to do anything against his will?
That's the point I'm talking about. We don't know what Griffiths planning. And Lost chapter giving some thoughts, if he going to rule all mankind or will put them in eternal agony -but why he need so many apostles? What could be hazard or even harm him? He could kill Guts already and he didn't, why? Why Skull Knight tried his luck only vs Femto?
It could be a generic story with Guts accumulating powers and killing apostles one by one and then party with Griffith, but it isn't. Everyone have a plan and the picture we see is bizarre vortex of events twisted each other.

Wyald and Ganishka were exceptions, and they were also both pawns in a larger story. Pawns who did exactly what they were meant to and then died like dogs. Zodd tried his luck against Femto too, remember that? During the dream prophetizing the coming of the Falcon of Light. He lost a horn and fell in line. But more generally, it's unlikely that any large group of apostles would be willing to defy the God Hand. In the same way that it's hard to imagine any member of the God Hand defying the Idea of Evil.
Exactly I'm trying to say. Griffith is not like the others in God Hand, and his plan not to exterminate all mankind. I'm considering Idea of Evil as a pool of pure power and God Hand as a someone who can take a sip of this force, not the slaves of his will. Lost Chapter can be a sort of basis for this theory when Idea of Evil granted Griffith some freedom.

Offline Salem

Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2014, 11:46:06 AM »
That's the point I'm talking about. We don't know what Griffiths planning. And Lost chapter giving some thoughts, if he going to rule all mankind or will put them in eternal agony -but why he need so many apostles? What could be hazard or even harm him? He could kill Guts already and he didn't, why? Why Skull Knight tried his luck only vs Femto?
It could be a generic story with Guts accumulating powers and killing apostles one by one and then party with Griffith, but it isn't.

Griffiths plan was and is to have his own kingdom.  The apostles obey him.  That's what they HAVE to do.  The world of berserk makes this clear with every encounter.   Ganishka is the perfect example of what happens if you don't obey.  There is no winning and look at zodds mentality with Griffith.  What he's planning next is most likely living in his kingdom and being king.  Marriage to the princess,  making femto babies, or stabbing a Beherit shaped guts and watching from afar while he twitches (jk).  There is no indication for anything else at the moment.  Not from everything that the story presents

Why hasn't he killed guts?  He doesn't care.  To him, guts is nothing.  The end

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sk tried to smash voids head, so what do you mean by "only tried his luck with femto?"  Lets not forget at its base berserk is a revenge story.  Lets also remember this is not a generic tale in the slightest.

Truthfully, its a fun theory that holds no water.  Not saying its impossible, but this would be very different from any smooth storyline we've witnessed.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2014, 12:11:46 PM »
That's the point I'm talking about. We don't know what Griffiths planning.

I don't think it is. I'm telling you that as far as we know, Griffith is not being forced to do anything by the Idea of Evil (and will not be in the future either).

And Lost chapter giving some thoughts

Episode 83 was officially removed from the story. I would advise against using it as the sole basis for any theory.

if he going to rule all mankind or will put them in eternal agony -but why he need so many apostles? What could be hazard or even harm him? He could kill Guts already and he didn't, why? Why Skull Knight tried his luck only vs Femto?

1) Griffith is already ruling over most of mankind as far as we can tell.
2) We don't know what the God Hand (that includes Griffith) plans for mankind.
3) Guts and his friends pose a threat to Griffith, and that threat is likely to rise. The magical beings who roam Fantasia also pose a threat to Falconia, and the apostles guard it among other things.
4) The fact Griffith didn't kill Guts is unrelated to the rest of this, but there are many reasons really. As Femto, he didn't care enough, and he took pleasure in letting Guts live his life knowing he could never measure up to him. After his return, on the Hill of Swords, Guts and Casca's son would have probably prevented any hostile action.
5) We've seen the Skull Knight attack the God Hand twice: first during the Eclipse, where he took at shot at Void, and then when he attacked Femto on top of Ganishka. Those are the only occasions he had that we know of. Slan's appearance in the Qliphoth doesn't count, although he still came to Guts' rescue at the time.

It could be a generic story with Guts accumulating powers and killing apostles one by one and then party with Griffith, but it isn't.

I don't think partying is what Guts has in mind for Griffith, but other than that, I think it's reasonable to expect him and his friends to eventually return from Elfhelm, kill a bunch of apostles along the way, and then have a confrontation against Griffith. This sequence of event in itself doesn't lessen the story, it's all about how it's executed.

Griffith is not like the others in God Hand, and his plan not to exterminate all mankind.

I can't be sure what you mean exactly because of your English, but I assume you're saying that Griffith doesn't want to exterminate all of mankind. Problem is, nowhere is it said that it's what the rest of the God Hand or Idea of Evil want either. Oh and why is Femto not like the others? I mean he's the one who was incarnated, sure, but as far as we know he's still 100% in league with his comrades (and their appearance during the advent of Fantasia is a pretty clear hint), and really, he has no reason not to be.

I'm considering Idea of Evil as a pool of pure power and God Hand as a someone who can take a sip of this force, not the slaves of his will. Lost Chapter can be a sort of basis for this theory when Idea of Evil granted Griffith some freedom.

Like I said, episode 83 is not canon. But aside from that, it doesn't support your theory. In it we're told that the Idea in Evil created Griffith and manipulated all of his life so that he would be exactly what it wanted him to. And then it told him to be whatever he wanted. This is what I meant in my previous post when I said that your premise was flawed. It's hard to rebel against authority when you're told to do whatever you want. The God Hand do the Idea of Evil's bidding because of who they are and how they came to be, not because they're coerced.

Offline rayhato

Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2014, 02:15:35 PM »
What he's planning next is most likely living in his kingdom and being king. There is no indication for anything else at the moment.  Not from everything that the story presents
History repeats itself, time is running circles (c)
Currently he is on Gaiseric way to rule the whole land, conquering and rejoining small parts of it. I don't think that Griffith is pleased to do as he wants since he was made for his role (yes I know, 83 chapter is non-canon). But what if Gaiseric denied his role 1000 years ago and trying to fix everything he failed? And now Griffith born to complete whatever is need to be completed. This could be the root of problem between Void and Skull Knight.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sk tried to smash voids head, so what do you mean by "only tried his luck with femto?"  Lets not forget at its base berserk is a revenge story.  Lets also remember this is not a generic tale in the slightest.
I seriously doubt that Skull Knight really tried to kill Void during the Eclipse. It was a demonstration of their abilities and strength at that very moment, that brought us to current situation explaining what Skull Knight was doing all this time - Beherit Sword as a weapon against Void's space-dimension manipulation. Ganishka tried his medicine and now we know how it works, is really any of existing apostles could survive a blow of that thing?

Episode 83 was officially removed from the story. I would advise against using it as the sole basis for any theory.
There was a reason for it. Like Miura's own saying, he is not sure if Idea of Evil will appear again or not, but it just a theory. If we'll include Lost Chapter, it could explain something - again, its just a theory.


3) Guts and his friends pose a threat to Griffith, and that threat is likely to rise. The magical beings who roam Fantasia also pose a threat to Falconia, and the apostles guard it among other things.
4) The fact Griffith didn't kill Guts is unrelated to the rest of this, but there are many reasons really. As Femto, he didn't care enough, and he took pleasure in letting Guts live his life knowing he could never measure up to him. After his return, on the Hill of Swords, Guts and Casca's son would have probably prevented any hostile action.
Sir, you probably right. However Griffith might need Guts for something, and it is very captivating.

Problem is, nowhere is it said that it's what the rest of the God Hand or Idea of Evil want either.
Like I said above, this probably related to events are still unrevealed. Gaiseric and his empire not just parts of history, and wiseman inside Tower of Retribution could be Void.

Oh and why is Femto not like the others? I mean he's the one who was incarnated, sure, but as far as we know he's still 100% in league with his comrades (and their appearance during the advent of Fantasia is a pretty clear hint), and really, he has no reason not to be.
He was basically created to play his role, thats why! We don't know about the other members but someone has to be the first (Void?)

It's hard to rebel against authority when you're told to do whatever you want.
Maybe what Idea of Evil planning goes against Griffith own thoughts?

I can't be sure what you mean exactly because of your English
Terribly sorry, my teacher was born in Ireland  :casca:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2014, 10:45:18 PM »
Currently he is on Gaiseric way to rule the whole land, conquering and rejoining small parts of it. I don't think that Griffith is pleased to do as he wants since he was made for his role (yes I know, 83 chapter is non-canon).

Conquering and rejoining small parts of the land? What? We know that refugees come to Falconia. That's all. Where have you seen that Griffith is conquering the land? Also, you should probably not get too carried away when comparing what's happening now to what happened to Gaiseric, given that their experiences were likely quite different.

And it's episode 83, not chapter. For reference, the latest chapter of the "Chapter of the Elf Island". It started in volume 35 with episode 308.

But what if Gaiseric denied his role 1000 years ago and trying to fix everything he failed? And now Griffith born to complete whatever is need to be completed. This could be the root of problem between Void and Skull Knight.

I don't think that makes much sense. Gaiseric and Void couldn't have been members of the God Hand at the same time, and since Occultation ceremonies happen every 216 years, there would have been no reason to wait a thousand years to replace a dissident (if that's what you're implying).

I seriously doubt that Skull Knight really tried to kill Void during the Eclipse.

He swung his sword at his head in a surprise attack. I don't see how that could not be an attempt to kill him.

It was a demonstration of their abilities and strength at that very moment, that brought us to current situation explaining what Skull Knight was doing all this time - Beherit Sword as a weapon against Void's space-dimension manipulation.

That changes nothing to the fact that the Skull Knight attacked Void. You're not arguing in good faith here. Besides, my original point stands about the lack of opportunities the Skull Knight would have had.

Ganishka tried his medicine and now we know how it works, is really any of existing apostles could survive a blow of that thing?

It's not like the average apostle can survive any normal hit from the Skull Knight anyway, but you're seriously missing the point if you think what happened with Ganishka was merely a demonstration of the technique's power. Anyway, in the end his strike against Femto was as ineffective as his strike against Void, so your point is moot I'm afraid.

Sir, you probably right. However Griffith might need Guts for something, and it is very captivating.

What could Griffith possibly need Guts for? :???:

Like I said above, this probably related to events are still unrevealed. Gaiseric and his empire not just parts of history, and wiseman inside Tower of Retribution could be Void.

Gaiseric and Void's backstories are unlikely to lend credence to the idea that Griffith will rebel against his allies because they'll suddenly try to force him to "sacrifice his kingdom" (and for an unknown reason, too).

He was basically created to play his role, thats why! We don't know about the other members but someone has to be the first (Void?)

But if Femto was created to play a specific role then it's likely that all the others were as well. There's no reason to think that even the first member of the God Hand wasn't the product of careful manipulation by the Idea of Evil, a being whose awakening probably predates them by millennia.

Maybe what Idea of Evil planning goes against Griffith own thoughts?

I don't follow.

Offline slothqueen

Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2014, 08:56:35 PM »
Maybe what Idea of Evil planning goes against Griffith own thoughts?

You appear not to understand one very important thing - Griffith, as human and as Femto, is a composition (is it a good word...? you know what I mean) of IoE. In "non-canonical" (aw yiss...) ep 83, god himself told Griffith, how he was blending bloodlines and flexing events to make Griffith a person he is now. God knows Griffith's psychology hundred times better than anyone else (including Griffith), and he is sure (so am I), that Griffith's ambitions and plans are and will always be convergent with his masterplan.

Offline Delta Phi

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2014, 09:09:01 PM »
Maybe what Idea of Evil planning goes against Griffith own thoughts?
You appear not to understand one very important thing - Griffith, as human and as Femto, is a composition (is it a good word...? you know what I mean) of IoE. In "non-canonical" (aw yiss...) ep 83, god himself told Griffith, how he was blending bloodlines and flexing events to make Griffith a person he is now. God knows Griffith's psychology hundred times better than anyone else (including Griffith), and he is sure (so am I), that Griffith's ambitions and plans are and will always be convergent with his masterplan.

Indeed.

It would be strange for IoE to suddenly "betray" Femto so to speak. The only way your speculation could be plausible, Rayhato, is if Femto is just merely another pawn--another stepping stone--in the IoE's master plan, a la Ganishka, but with all the build up about the Age of Darkness and it coming to fruition, I think the IoE and Femto's agendas are congruent. :femto::idea:

Offline rayhato

Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2014, 09:37:27 PM »
I don't think that makes much sense. Gaiseric and Void couldn't have been members of the God Hand at the same time, and since Occultation ceremonies happen every 216 years, there would have been no reason to wait a thousand years to replace a dissident (if that's what you're implying).

If Gaiseric and Skull Knight are the same person, he is likely never been in God Hand. He is bearing "same curse" as Guts which could be Brand of Sacrifice. And the fact that he is resident of Interstice like Guts support this theory. This is going a bit out of topic  :daiba:

He swung his sword at his head in a surprise attack. I don't see how that could not be an attempt to kill him.
Besides, my original point stands about the lack of opportunities the Skull Knight would have had.
For thousand of years he should know Void's power level. And it wasn't surprise attack, Void saw his incoming blow. Skull Knight definitely knew that at that point of time he can do nothing to Void, and he rushed to Guts to save him.

It's not like the average apostle can survive any normal hit from the Skull Knight anyway, but you're seriously missing the point if you think what happened with Ganishka was merely a demonstration of the technique's power. Anyway, in the end his strike against Femto was as ineffective as his strike against Void, so your point is moot I'm afraid.
I am talking about Apostles not the God Hand, yes. There is major part of Apostles he can take care of already (Neo Band), and he not even trying to do it. They are most likely no match for him but he killing nameless puppets and taking their Beherits, so Neo Band must be a part of the future events.
Femto manipulates gravity and he easy avoided sword attack,  let's see how this sword will work against Void.

What could Griffith possibly need Guts for? :???:
Join him in something that incoming?

Gaiseric and Void's backstories are unlikely to lend credence to the idea that Griffith will rebel against his allies because they'll suddenly try to force him to "sacrifice his kingdom" (and for an unknown reason, too).
This is correct, but only thing we can say now for sure - something happened. Maybe Void was the one who initiated Eclipse and branded Gaiseric. Maybe they had some kind of relations like Griffith and Guts had. Maybe shit hit the fan because of Gaiseric 1000 years ago. Miura, please, give us something!

But if Femto was created to play a specific role then it's likely that all the others were as well. There's no reason to think that even the first member of the God Hand wasn't the product of careful manipulation by the Idea of Evil, a being whose awakening probably predates them by millennia.
They could be and they could be not, in their conversation we picked up only what happened with Griffith. Since we seeing Griffith more than them, he should be kind of "special". And the question what he is going to do and how this connected with the God Hand - the question I'm trying to resolve for myself.

It would be strange for IoE to suddenly "betray" Femto so to speak.
Idea of Evil gave him freedom to do what he pleased. What if his plan to become something even more powerful? Take Idea of Evil place?

God knows Griffith's psychology hundred times better than anyone else (including Griffith), and he is sure (so am I), that Griffith's ambitions and plans are and will always be convergent with his masterplan.
If you look it from that point of view, there is nothing to speculate. Everything is preplanned and we just enjoying the show - there must be something which will flip upside down everything  :beast:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2014, 10:00:19 PM »
If Gaiseric and Skull Knight are the same person, he is likely never been in God Hand. He is bearing "same curse" as Guts which could be Brand of Sacrifice. And the fact that he is resident of Interstice like Guts support this theory. This is going a bit out of topic  :daiba:

Yeah, so you're rescinding what you previously said? Fine by me, but this discussion isn't very productive.

For thousand of years he should know Void's power level. And it wasn't surprise attack, Void saw his incoming blow. Skull Knight definitely knew that at that point of time he can do nothing to Void, and he rushed to Guts to save him.

This isn't Dragon Ball Z, people don't have "power levels". And it was a surprise attack since SK burst out of the sun and attacked Void right away, I don't see how you can argue otherwise. In any case, no matter what you argue, your initial assessment of the situation, that SK had never "tried his luck" on another member of the God Hand besides Femto, is wrong. Nothing you say will change that fact, so I think we should move on.

I am talking about Apostles not the God Hand, yes. There is major part of Apostles he can take care of already (Neo Band), and he not even trying to do it. They are most likely no match for him but he killing nameless puppets and taking their Beherits, so Neo Band must be a part of the future events.

"Neo Band" does not refer to anything. You can just say the apostles from the Band of the Falcon, everyone will get it. Anyway, I really don't see how this relates to the topic at hand. Like I said, the Skull Knight doesn't really need to use any special technique to kill off apostles. And the Beherit Sword's use against Ganishka was a very, very specific case. Trying to derive meaning from the fact the Skull Knight isn't wasting his time trying to kill off every single apostle in the land seems pretty meaningless to me. At any rate it doesn't support your theory.

Femto manipulates gravity and he easy avoided sword attack,  let's see how this sword will work against Void.

It feels like you're not getting the point of why SK failed. And we don't know what Femto "manipulates". He has powers, just like Void does. Trying to categorize them based on a couple of visual observations seems futile to me.

Join him in something that incoming?

Uh huh. Guts will join with Griffith again to fight against the God Hand! Is that what you're really getting at with all this? Because if so, you're really deluded.

This is correct, but only thing we can say now for sure - something happened.

You don't say!

They could be and they could be not, in their conversation we picked up only what happened with Griffith. Since we seeing Griffith more than them, he should be kind of "special".

He's the main antagonist, the most recent member of the God Hand, and the one who was chosen to be incarnated. That makes him special enough. Beyond that, nothing in the manga hints that his relationship to the Idea of Evil is any different from that of the others.

Idea of Evil gave him freedom to do what he pleased. What if his plan to become something even more powerful? Take Idea of Evil place?

That's hard to picture considering how different they are in nature.

Offline slothqueen

Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2014, 11:09:53 AM »
If you look it from that point of view, there is nothing to speculate. Everything is preplanned and we just enjoying the show - there must be something which will flip upside down everything  :beast:

Not really. Griffith is like a dog to IoE's. He's "bred" from specific bloodlines of people, probably with certain personal traits, he's properly "trained" by specific events in his whole life, and THIS (not some deterministic nature of the world) makes him perfectly predictable for god. He won't do anything against will of god, just as your dog (still separate being you cannot control in 100%) won't do anything against you. Griffith instinctively desires, what IoE planned. That's all.

Offline Red Dingo

Oy
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2014, 07:53:47 PM »
First of all, you make some assumptions without basis.

Re-reading Berserk recently I was thinking about balance of powers in the whole Berserk world and get some thoughts I'd like to share with all of you.
I think most of you will agree that Guts not strong enough to wipe God Hand. What moves him? What he will do after curing Casca?

Let's assume that the Idea of Evil through the God Hand in the future will force Griffith to sacrifice his kingdom which he is so long dreamed of. Citing the fact that people are not able to obtain an ultimatum salvation, so they must feel the ultimate in suffering, what Griffith can know or guess. To be an apostle, you have to sacrifice the most dearest. It is possible that some of the apostles regret their sacrifice and this can connect them with Griffith, the idea of revenge God Hand and the destruction Idea of Evil concept in general. In this case, God Hand against Neo Band of Hawk, which seems reasonable.

There are Apostles that no doubt regret the sacrifice they made on some level. However we have seen none that feel so to the degree that they seek revenge against the God Hand. Femto has displayed no level of regret for the Eclipse and whatever the future holds in store for Falconia is likely something humanity has wished for. Furthermore, just because Griffith dreamed of gaining his own kingdom does not necessarily mean that Femto holds the same sentiment for it. Chances are that Falconia is not just going to be sacrificed, but even if it is, that  doesn't mean Femto wouldn't do it in a heart beat.

Quote
Guts team is too weak, all the apostles killed by Guts himself and his followers have no chance against Neo Band of Hawk, which holds 5 strong Apostles (Zodd, Gryunberd, Irvine, Rakshasa and Locus) plus Griffith and two girls. Skull Knight must have an interest in all of events happening - he is strong enough to crush all Griffith's apostles one by one (or even together), but keeps them alive for some reason. He also let Zodd survive eclipse events, though reasons allowing him to live are unknown to us.

First of all, you are making a lot of assumptions. The Skull Knight is an able warrior but we don't know if he can defeat Femto's elite without great effort. Given his actions, it's more logical to say that the Skull Knight knows when he can risk an open strike and when he must retreat.

Second of all, to say Guts and his team have no chance against the Neo Hawks ignores all of the feats they have thus far accomplished. They have managed achieve the seemingly impossible through a combination of magic and human ingenuity. It also ignores the fact that Femto considered magic users a potential threat to his dominion. That doesn't make them his Achilles Heel, but he saw them as something to be nipped in the bud.

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It is unclear what is the role of Guts in all of this. Zodd knows something about Berserker Armor that also Skull Knight knows - and it scares Zodd. When Guts and Casca were rescued from the eclipse, he was surprised and laughed in anticipation, skirmish on the Hill of Swords - an examination of Guts's strength. Both Zodd and Griffith at that time were stronger than Guts and they also let him live, and we don't know why.

I don't think they had any reason for allowing Guts to deeper than "whatever". When a fly buzzes around your head, you might swat at it but you don't waste time and energy going out of your way to squash it. You're capable of squashing it if you really want to but if the first swipe didn't kill it then driving it off, moving somewhere else, or just plain ignoring it may suit you just as well. To Femto on the Hill of Swords, Guts was just a slightly more annoying fly.

Any deeper reason for Griffith leaving Guts alive on the Hill of Swords would most likely be the Child's feelings influencing him not to actively try and kill its father just as it influenced him to save its mother.

So I don't see a reason for Femto to suddenly turn on the IoE. At best, he might turn on the rest of the God Hand but it's doubtful such a development was not predestined in the first place.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2014, 08:40:25 PM »
whatever the future holds in store for Falconia is likely something humanity has wished for.

I'm not so sure about that. I don't believe the God Hand are bound to follow what humanity wishes for.

just because Griffith dreamed of gaining his own kingdom does not necessarily mean that Femto holds the same sentiment for it.

He did say that he still had that objective after the Incarnation though.

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2014, 09:11:00 PM »
I'm not so sure about that. I don't believe the God Hand are bound to follow what humanity wishes for.

At any rate they seem content to be apart of someone's plan.

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He did say that he still had that objective after the Incarnation though.

True but as detached as he is, would he feel anything for its fall? More importantly, would he feel it strongly enough to try to turn against his role in this cosmic play.

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2014, 12:11:05 AM »
At any rate they seem content to be apart of someone's plan.

I think at present they're merely content to be well fed and protected from harm, to have a roof over their heads and a setting to live in that they can comprehend. But if you remember Raban's words to Rickert, clearly this isn't a dream world everyone was wishing for.

True but as detached as he is, would he feel anything for its fall? More importantly, would he feel it strongly enough to try to turn against his role in this cosmic play.

Well like I've said in the thread I think the notion that Femto will eventually oppose his brethren is ridiculous, but I also don't believe any decision will be forced on him.

Offline BeingofEvil

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 10:55:44 AM »
   We don't know, what beings are existing in astral world, maybe some of them have power equal to God Hand, just like king of the elves :puck:, (no one knew about him, until Schierke said) or their purity nature is strong enough to resist will of Idea that controls inpure mankind.

   The way Griffith builds his kingdom reminds me of Gaiseric. But Griffith is just protecting humans from monsters :griffnotevil:. Maybe his purpose, is to achieve something that Gaiseric wasn't able to do. It's hard to understand why Gaiseric was punished by God Hand. Maybe he found secret of immortality or something, that put him out of destiny cycle arranged by Idea of Evil. Anyway Skull Knight :SK: is way different from apostles, and God Hand members.

   So I see plan like that: Griffith is a tool, that connected astral world with physical one, to destroy every astral being that are out of control/threat for Idea (who rule physical world). Griffith did it just to drag out his kingdom from astral world into physical one, because like rest of God Hand members, he lost humanity, he became incarnation of his dream. But to fulfill his dream he have to rule-physical world.
   The other ones rule specific domains in (abyss?)  :slan:-pleasure, Conrad-pestilence,  :ubik:-surrealism,  :void: rule his own brain :D The only way Griffith would be able to oppose Idea is the Casca child. Because Griffith was made of his flesh, and the child itself wasnt evil, it wasnt apostle or a demon just another astral being. Maybe there will be fight :femto: Griffith against his  :griffnotevil: son or something like that. Although I wish God Hand to be more active, because they are very interesting and cool  :iva:.

Quote from: rayhato
If you look it from that point of view, there is nothing to speculate. Everything is preplanned and we just enjoying the show - there must be something which will flip upside down everything  :beast:
I think, most surprising for everyone would be completely abandoning concept of Idea by Miura. Maybe that what Miura wanted to tell us in Sea God episodes, IDEA OF EVIL IS DEAD! !
Beherit.

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2015, 02:35:17 PM »
   We don't know, what beings are existing in astral world, maybe some of them have power equal to God Hand, just like king of the elves :puck:, (no one knew about him, until Schierke said)

Most of the current crew doesn't even know about the God Hand, so I don't really understand your point here. Their knowledge isn't supreme.

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or their purity nature is strong enough to resist will of Idea that controls inpure mankind.
The Idea of Evil has influence over the dark side of man's subconscious mind (a common consciousness). It's specifically related to humans, so astral beings wouldn't be included.

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Griffith is just protecting humans from monsters :griffnotevil:.

Well, he also introduced those monsters into the world. So...

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Maybe his purpose, is to achieve something that Gaiseric wasn't able to do.

I think that's possible.

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It's hard to understand why Gaiseric was punished by God Hand. Maybe he found secret of immortality or something, that put him out of destiny cycle arranged by Idea of Evil.

I don't think he was necessarily "punished." Perhaps he's more like Guts in that he simply opposes them, and lost his body as a result of his powerful opponents.

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   So I see plan like that: Griffith is a tool, that connected astral world with physical one, to destroy every astral being that are out of control/threat for Idea (who rule physical world).

But he didn't  destroy any astral beings. He actually gave them a ton of fresh meat by introducing them to the human world.

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Griffith did it just to drag out his kingdom from astral world into physical one, because like rest of God Hand members, he lost humanity, he became incarnation of his dream.

But Griffith's dream was to have his own kingdom, not to become a bird man. :carcus:

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   The other ones rule specific domains in (abyss?)  :slan:-pleasure, Conrad-pestilence,  :ubik:-surrealism,  :void: rule his own brain

Ubik sure got a bum gig.

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The only way Griffith would be able to oppose Idea is the Casca child. Because Griffith was made of his flesh, and the child itself wasnt evil, it wasnt apostle or a demon just another astral being. Maybe there will be fight :femto: Griffith against his  :griffnotevil: son or something like that.

Not sure exactly what you mean. That Griffith will have a son with Charlotte, and that that child will oppose his father? Because Casca's child came from her and Guts, it was only tainted by Femto.

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Although I wish God Hand to be more active, because they are very interesting and cool  :iva:.p

"Soon enough." - Miura in 2012.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline BeingofEvil

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Re: What if Griffith plan to kill God?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2015, 02:45:15 AM »
Quote from: Walter
Most of the current crew doesn't even know about the God Hand, so I don't really understand your point here. Their knowledge isn't supreme.
   If I good remember while in Qliphoth, Schierke sensed presence of Slan, and called her "powerful" just like she called king of elves. Therefore he might have capabilities similar to God Hand members.
Even if not, im sure he have something important to tell them. More like he will teach them something. I dont know why, but I see him as long bearded hermit ;D master yoda :puck:

Quote from: Walter
The Idea of Evil has influence over the dark side of man's subconscious mind (a common consciousness). It's specifically related to humans, so astral beings wouldn't be included.
   Yes, thats what I mean, and the reason why Idea will, might be to get right of them. We can see a lot of good astral beings like, elves, unicorns, *dragons...maybe these are good as well, intelligent, capable of telepathy. It's fantasy! :troll: also we have seen knight, on one page, knight without head.. I think he wasn't attacking humans, just scared them.

Quote from: Walter
Well, he also introduced those monsters into the world. So...
   I mean Gaiseric, had to conquer human world, just like Ganishka, to hold his position. Griffith united people against one common enemy.

Quote from: Walter
I don't think he was necessarily "punished." Perhaps he's more like Guts in that he simply opposes them, and lost his body as a result of his powerful opponents.
   Or Maybe Skull Knight isn't from physical world, maybe hes astral being just like elves (just like the knight without head we've seen ;D), and Flora summoned him... Maybe Skull Knight have his own kingdom in astral world.
   About your version, it's also suitable that Skull Knight has been cursed with a curse of immortality (perhaps by Void) and he turned into undead or something (It reminds me of fantasy story figure, Lord Soth, who was punished by god with undead life.)

   Or just berserker armor sucked from him life. Then Flora somehow sealed his soul in armor... but that doesn't explain, why he have seperate horse. For example, Locus is a part of his "horse", like rest of apostles are part of their creatures. That seems Skull Knight horse could be "nightmare", just another astral being, similar to kelpie.


Quote from: Walter
But he didn't  destroy any astral beings. He actually gave them a ton of fresh meat by introducing them to the human world.
Yes, I mean Griffith is unaware of the master plan, he just want to build his perfect kingdom and live in peace.
Also the beings that really feast are evil one, ogres and trolls from Qliphoth (did I said Qliphoth? isnt killing them equal to declaring war with :slan: ? Griffith be careful you bastard! :puck:)
   Interesting enough is that Qliphoth in jewish Kabbalah, is opposite side/power to Tree of Life. Just like tree of evil or death. While Tree of Life include Sephirots (maybe these are fruits) Qliphoth include Shells.
http://41.media.tumblr.com/96c537ff2f7ad4f81513dbfec3cf3e50/tumblr_mgxg320Qso1rud800o2_r1_500.jpg
In Norse mythology, "Qliphoth" is in roots of Tree of Life "Yggdrasil", where is Ginnungagap, abyss.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dG7zc7FsNv4/TrnmAQD07VI/AAAAAAAAAGU/upvdLoAy5Xc/s1600/DSC05206.JPG

Quote from: Walter
But Griffith's dream was to have his own kingdom, not to become a bird man. :carcus:
How he would rule monsters without  appropriate costume :D calculated.

Quote from: Walter
Ubik sure got a bum gig.
There is a low chance, but vision of God, Griffith experienced could be Ubik trick :ubik: ( :griffnotevil: but...but.. I have seen god..)

Quote from: Walter
Not sure exactly what you mean. That Griffith will have a son with Charlotte, and that that child will oppose his father? Because Casca's child came from her and Guts, it was only tainted by Femto.
No, I just thought the whole time, that child of Casca is only Griffith son, now that even better explains why is not evil but powerful.

Quote from: Walter
"Soon enough." - Miura in 2012.
I think Berserk is going to be another neverending Guin Saga. One volume per year would be ideal ;D not too rushed, but good enough.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 05:02:38 AM by BeingofEvil »
Beherit.