Author Topic: Sacrifice as sacrificer?  (Read 2394 times)

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Offline slothqueen

Sacrifice as sacrificer?
« on: December 26, 2014, 08:15:57 PM »
Reading various discussions about Berserk, I stumbled on divagations about Guts sacrificing his team. I think it's not very possible (apostle Guts? lol, nope), but what with cured Casca? Or - purely theoretically - anybody with the brand? Is it even possible to sacrifice other people while being a sacrifice yourself?

To me it seems rather not very likely, since apostles and other daemos are "blessed ones" in Berserk cosmology, and sacrifices are "damned ones", but I found no virtual proves for that thesis in manga. What's your opinion in that case?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Sacrifice as sacrificer?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2014, 08:27:26 PM »
Is it even possible to sacrifice other people while being a sacrifice yourself?

Probably not, given what we know.

The one special case worth mentioning is that of the Beherit Apostle, as his sacrifice included himself. But it's a different scenario, one that remains consistent with the rest of the story.

Offline Walter

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Re: Sacrifice as sacrificer?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2014, 01:43:12 AM »
I agree with Aaz on the fundamentals of this subject. While the lines are a bit blurry here, when you get right down to it, we know that Guts would never use the beherit at this point, and for Casca to, well... I honestly don't know how the series could recover from such a tragedy. Thus, I sort of exclude it as a possibility.

However in terms of the "rules" of the Berserk universe, I have a proposal that's more of a thought exercise than a practical possibility. There may be a loophole of sorts in how the God Hand have described things pertaining to branded ones and beherits. Here's what I'm basing this on (please note, these are Dark Horse translations):

Quote from: Dark Horse Volume 3: Conrad of Guts
"But he hasn't been ordained by the laws of fate causality, so he can't be among us."

This line has generally been read as being proof against a branded one being able to become an apostle. But...

Quote from: Dark Horse Volume 12: Ubik to Griffith
"From the moment you took possession of that crimson beherit, you had the qualities to become a demon."

If possession of a beherit equates to being ordained, then when Conrad wrote him off in Volume 3, Guts wasn't yet qualified but not necessarily only because he was branded. He picked up the beherit after the count's death. Of course, there's plenty of wiggle room to loop around back to the accepted theory here. For instance, you could just as easily ask why the woman who gave Griffith the beherit, or even Daiba, wasn't qualified. The answer is apparent: They were merely ferrying the beherit along its course to its ultimate owner*. The same could be said of Guts. The true owner won't be known until it fully awakens for its big moment.

There's also an argument to be made that what Guts is doing is rather anomalous in the grand scheme of things. As a branded interloper, was he meant to obtain that beherit? Or is it exactly as planned, and headed to its predetermined destination, right on schedule? Either way, its presence in Guts bag has always been rather ominous, particularly given Flora's reaction to learning he's carrying one around. Whoever it is meant for, it'll be a big event when it finally awakens. Guts has been carrying that beherit since the start of the series.


*I use "owner" here only for the purposes of this discussion. Obviously, no one truly owns a beherit. They belong to, and are tools of, the Idea of Evil.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Sacrifice as sacrificer?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2014, 11:36:23 AM »
If possession of a beherit equates to being ordained, then when Conrad wrote him off in Volume 3, Guts wasn't yet qualified but not necessarily only because he was branded. He picked up the beherit after the count's death. Of course, there's plenty of wiggle room to loop around back to the accepted theory here. For instance, you could just as easily ask why the woman who gave Griffith the beherit, or even Daiba, wasn't qualified. The answer is apparent: They were merely ferrying the beherit along its course to its ultimate owner*. The same could be said of Guts. The true owner won't be known until it fully awakens for its big moment.

*I use "owner" here only for the purposes of this discussion. Obviously, no one truly owns a beherit. They belong to, and are tools of, the Idea of Evil.

One note about that DH translation: it should be "demon king" and not just "demon". Quite a big omission on their part.

Anyway, like you mentioned, the problem with this line is that it doesn't quite fit with the rest of the story, which tells and shows us that things are preordained and that carrying a beherit around isn't relevant as it will be where it needs to be when the time comes. Fortunately for us, Ubik actually corrects himself right after saying so (on the next page), reflecting that it's the other way around: because Griffith was qualified to become a demon king, the beherit fell into his hands. And that is indeed how things have always been presented to us.

As Flora explains in volume 24, the one true master of the beherits is none other than the Idea of Evil. The humans who use the beherits are not really their owners, as is made evident by the fact that beherits continue to exist after each use and can change hands again and again, creating more and more apostles. And of course I think there is a case to be made for the likelihood that all five members of the God Hand have used the same Crimson Beherit as well. So I don't think there's any real doubt as to what the proper order of things is: having a beherit in your hand at a point in time does not elect you to anything. Whether someone becomes an apostle (or even a member of the God Hand) or not is foreordained and not left up to chance.

Offline Delta Phi

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Re: Sacrifice as sacrificer?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2014, 02:47:54 PM »
Given what's been said in this thread, and since there is no precedence set for a sacrifice making a sacrifice, I think it's safe to say that if Guts' or Casca's future included using a beherit then causality would have kept them from being branded. In my opinion, of the three remaining old Falcons, I think Rickert would be in the best position to use the beherit since he was spared from the eclipse and branding, but I highly doubt that's plausible considering recent events. :rickert:

Offline slothqueen

Re: Sacrifice as sacrificer?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2015, 11:22:57 PM »
Indeed I meant this to be more thought exercise than precognition of Guts' beherit use. Moreover I was curious if some proves pro and con I didn't notice were included in manga. I also think that Guts is still carrying beherit to it's user rather than being user himself.

PS I don't see Rickert as a hypothetical beherit user. Beherit users were usually... rather distinctive. Determinated. Obsesive. A bit creepy. Not reconciled with the world, somehow... maladjusted. Rickert is everything but maladjusted. He's strong, as physically as mentally, he knows his value and his place in the world. He's calm and full of harmony. And he's happy, in that certain simple way I bet no one among present demons used to be. I can't see him in any situation which could bring him to the edge of despair necessary to activate a beherit. Even Erica's death (or other harm) would not lead him to that strong feelings imo.

Rather than Rickert I could picture Farnese or Charlotte as Guts' beherit's users. Charlotte lives on one big mystification, center of which is Griffith. If Griffith decide to give up playing her Prince Charming, her world would just fall apart, and at least this makes her potential beherit user. Farnese is in slightly better position, because her whole world doesn't recline on one thing (lie furthermore), but she seems still weak enough to break as something would undermine her freshly acquired confidence. She fears the world, and she lacks inner harmony - they're also aggravating factors.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Sacrifice as sacrificer?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2015, 12:03:43 AM »
I also think that Guts is still carrying beherit to it's user rather than being user himself.

I think there exists a distinct possibility that the beherit he carries will not actually be "used" by anyone to become an apostle and will instead serve another purpose. In fact, I think we should consider the possibility that we will not see another apostle be born at this point in the story. We don't need to see the process happen again as we're quite familiar with it, and the average apostle does not pose a threat to Guts anymore (a threat that's been well explored at this point).

The only reason for it to happen that I can fathom would be for story development, and that means it would have to be someone among Guts' group. But I can't think of a character who would fit the profile. Farnese doesn't in my opinion, as she's grown way too much for that. Serpico is probably the least implausible option at the moment, but even he is quite a stretch.

I don't see Rickert as a hypothetical beherit user.

Yes, that seems rather unlikely.

Offline ryOtoha

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Re: Sacrifice as sacrificer?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2015, 05:55:32 PM »
I think there exists a distinct possibility that the beherit he carries will not actually be "used" by anyone to become an apostle and will instead serve another purpose.

I've always pictured this particular beherit being twist for its primarly purpose and instead being utilize for his properties and since SK pull out  the "Yobimizu no Tsurugi", i tend to think, it will be use in a similar fashion.

(I'm not saying Guts will emulate the same technique as SK)

Online jackson_hurley

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Re: Sacrifice as sacrificer?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2015, 03:29:05 PM »
I've always pictured this particular beherit being twist for its primarly purpose and instead being utilize for his properties and since SK pull out  the "Yobimizu no Tsurugi", i tend to think, it will be use in a similar fashion.

(I'm not saying Guts will emulate the same technique as SK)

Maybe they'll just find a way to use it for a "summoning" to get to them easier or something of the likes...