Author Topic: Causality and destiny, the Berserk world follows a cyclic pattern  (Read 5702 times)

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Offline Kraden

Hello, I am a new member of this community and I would like to first thank you all for having built such a nice and active place for Berserk fans. This is my first post, I will try to make it worth reading. English is not my native language, please be forgiving if my writing is messy.  :farnese:

Here is my theory : the Berserk world goes through cycles of God Hand births, fifth member incarnation, age of darkness, God Hand purge. And then back to the beginning. The whole process taking about a thousand years.



I had a hard time picking a title and hope this one is satisfying.


First point : Recurring symbolism

Having recently (this month) reread Berserk entirely (for about the sixth time), some details caught my attention during the Tower of Conviction arc. On the walls of the room where Mozgus talked to Farnese in the 18th volume. Here is a picture. It reminded me of recurent symbols of Falconia. Here is a picture of episode 307.

A circle with wings. A half circle under a circle (the lower part being more "feathery" in Falconia). Falconia has many times been compared to the legendary city under Wyndham and the tower of conviction is supposed to (as far as I know) be contemporary with the old city.

Second point : The fusion of the world.

People were supposedly used to spirits (like elves). In the past the layers may have been merged (Griffith coming back to the world already started doing it, even before the world helix tree) when the previous God Hand incarnated and people got used to interacting with spirits. Then religion spread and people stopped believing in spirits, helping separating the world's layers in time for the next incarnation that would merge them.

Third point : The age of strife and the age of darkness

I will not elaborate too much on this as I can't provide reliable strongly translated quotes.

The context in which Gaiseric's rule rose seems close to how I envision the world some time (decades, centuries) after Griffith's complete defeat (killed along the helix tree, putting an end to the forcecul merge of the layers).  I call this the age of strife.

Humanity is reduced to small tribes (the survivors of the world outside Falconia, considering that if a final battle takes place in Falconia it most likely was messy for the population), the church being weakly established, if not nonexistant, most of the people believing in spirits (after all they were "real" not so long ago, when the world was merged).

Then a great conqueror could unite the world, use Falconia (maybe in ruins) as a capital (and maybe renovate it).

An eclipse occurs, bringing a new God Hand and destroying the city, upon which a new Wyndham-like kingdom and capital rises. The old religion rises from its ashes.




I'll try to wrap this up here and wait for your opinions before elaborating more. To finish I will put a few facts I did not manage to write down earlier.

  • Flora said that causality is not a circle but rather a spiral. If it was a circle the events would repeat themselves, as the Skull Knight seemed to think, but a spiral allows for differences. If Guts ends up winning against causality/destiny, he breaks the cycles. Destinies are not fulfilled, and a new future comes up. Of course this may all come down to a mistranslation.
  • I understand that by becoming Femto, Griffith embraced causality. He embraced the pattern, fulfilling it along his dream.
  • As a hand has five fingers it makes sense that the God Hand is composed of up to five members (considering that if they are not the God Hands there's supposed to be a single hand, hence five fingers). To keep up with the new members every couple centuries and incarnations every millenia a of purge seems legit.
  • The actual cycle may be unusual, be it through Griffith's actions, the Skull Knight's actions (maybe during the previous cycle) or Guts' actions (or his child's).
  • The Skull Knight's visit to Guts before the eclipse may point to the idea that there is a "struggler" every cycle destined to bring the incarnated (and maybe the whole actual God Hand) down. The brand may be the tool to make this possible (Flora and Schierke may have been talking about this when discussing the curse). The Skull Knight may have been the previous one, or the result of the previous one's actions (the child may become the next Skull Knight but this speculation is not my point). It could also be that there are strugglers at most eclipses and that the Skull Knight has seen a few of them by now and is able to predict Guts being the next one. But I'm loosing myself on something different here.
  • The "age of darkness". An age has a beginning and an end. There must be something after the age of darkness, it is only an age. The black hawk does not bring "eternal darkness" to the world.
  • The prophecy of the black hawk, known to both the church and witches, may refer the pattern.

My theory has most likely been influenced by the Mass Effect universe and The Matrix series. Even though I like this theory, I am absolutely not convinced that it is true, and many elements (especially timeline-wise about Gaiseric's empire, even though all we know about it is mere untrustworthy legends passed down through centuries) bug me. So I am more hoping to discuss it rather than see you agree.

I thank you for having read me and eagerly wait for your answers. Have a nice day.   :void:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Causality and destiny, the Berserk world follows a cyclic pattern
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 07:29:17 PM »
Hello, I am a new member of this community and I would like to first thank you all for having built such a nice and active place for Berserk fans. This is my first post, I will try to make it worth reading.

Hello Kraden, welcome to the forum! :serpico: That's an ambitious first post! Here's my take on it.

Here is my theory : the Berserk world goes through cycles of God Hand births, fifth member incarnation, age of darkness, God Hand purge. And then back to the beginning. The whole process taking about a thousand years.

I think there are several problems with the basis of your argument. For one thing, what would the purpose of this cycle be? The God Hand (and more importantly their master, the Idea of Evil) obviously has a specific goal in mind. They're not just part of a natural process of the world, they're willfully interfering with the natural order of things to execute a specific agenda. So, building on that, don't you think the Idea of Evil would have to be hugely incompetent in order for things to cycle over like this? One would expect it not to want to regularly lose its hold on the world (through its minions).

People were supposedly used to spirits (like elves).

We know for a fact that magical beings (and magic in general) were a lot more prevalent in the distant past. It's referenced several times throughout the story.

In the past the layers may have been merged (Griffith coming back to the world already started doing it, even before the world helix tree) when the previous God Hand incarnated and people got used to interacting with spirits. Then religion spread and people stopped believing in spirits, helping separating the world's layers in time for the next incarnation that would merge them.

I think you're relating things without a strong basis to do so. Femto's incarnation did initiate a change in the corporeal world, bringing it closer to the astral world, but it was nothing compared to what happened in volume 34, when the evil that Ganishka had gathered was unleashed upon the world. And that was painstakingly engineered and relied not just on the God Hand but on a strong convergence of events, notably the manipulation of Ganishka into doing what he did, and the manipulation of the Skull Knight into trying to attack Femto at that time with the weapon he had been fashioning for years by eating beherits. It's a hugely complex event honestly and I think you're explaining it away as a reoccurring factor far too easily.

Furthermore, I don't believe the Holy See's doctrine was in itself enough to completely "separate" the astral world from the corporeal one. It made it so humans progressively forgot about magic and only remembered astral beings as myths and legends, and the concentration of humans into cities and a purely human world further made it so people simply wouldn't notice an elf if they came across one, but it's not enough in itself. If specters could roam the world and possess people as they pleased, religion would not make them go away. Same with trolls, hydras, harpies and all other sorts of agressive creatures.

The context in which Gaiseric's rule rose seems close to how I envision the world some time (decades, centuries) after Griffith's complete defeat (killed along the helix tree, putting an end to the forcecul merge of the layers).  I call this the age of strife.

Humanity is reduced to small tribes (the survivors of the world outside Falconia, considering that if a final battle takes place in Falconia it most likely was messy for the population), the church being weakly established, if not nonexistant, most of the people believing in spirits (after all they were "real" not so long ago, when the world was merged).

Then a great conqueror could unite the world, use Falconia (maybe in ruins) as a capital (and maybe renovate it).

An eclipse occurs, bringing a new God Hand and destroying the city, upon which a new Wyndham-like kingdom and capital rises. The old religion rises from its ashes.

I think you've got it backward. Rather than Gaiseric's circumstances being similar to that of Griffith, it's Griffith's current reign that seems to have been duplicated from Gaiseric's. Intentionally so. I believe that viewed in this light, the current situation can be interpreted quite differently. For, you see, we've already established that the Idea of Evil and the God Hand went through great pains to set things up so that they would occur the way they did.

That goes from Griffith's life and his rise to glory, to his fall that was never really explained to the masses, and to the destruction of Midland by many different ills: the king's death, widespread disease, the aftermath of the Hundred Years' War on the land and resources, and of course the invasion of the Kushan empire. And then of course what I mentioned above, how Ganishka was led to make his last stand in Wyndham, his use of the contraption he and Daiba had created, the Skull Knight's intervention...

Now, we don't know much about Gaiseric's era. But we do know there were many conflicts, and a man rose above all others and united mankind. We know that a great city was built. Eventually the city was destroyed, and we know that people were branded during that time. Then we have the Skull Knight, who opposes the God Hand, and who is most likely to be Emperor Gaiseric himself. Going on an unsubstantiated assumption, let's say that Gaiseric was betrayed during that fateful event by someone close to him, a person who eventually became a member of the God Hand. And let's say that after those events, the astral world starts slowly receding from the corporeal one over hundreds of years, as the doctrine of the Holy See slowly takes roots.

We now have a perfect example of the "spiral of causality" in action. A thousand years later, we have another splendid warrior rising above all others. But this time, he is the one who betrays the people close to him in order to attain what he desires. A few years later, he comes back into the world as an invincible leader who unites the land, culminating by his unleashing of the astral world into the corporeal one. The world is instantly changed. The old capital city of Gaiseric is reborn in the Falcon's image, who also happens to be the messiah of the Holy See, and rules over a huge population like a god-king. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is suddenly very hostile to humans, much more so than it was before. Pretty much every single thing from a thousand years before has been emulated in a twisted way. And at the center of it all is the God Hand (the others are sure to manifest themselves in a form or another) and the apostles.

We don't know quite what their end-goal is yet, except that it's not going to be good for anyone but them. However, I just don't see how a "purge" fits into the grand scheme. To me, the events from a thousand years ago were not just another version of a recurring cycle for the God Hand, but rather an inspiration that the Idea of Evil drew from to create the current events.

Flora said that causality is not a circle but rather a spiral. If it was a circle the events would repeat themselves, as the Skull Knight seemed to think, but a spiral allows for differences. If Guts ends up winning against causality/destiny, he breaks the cycles.

How so? Isn't "purging the God Hand" a necessary part of the cycle? In this case, wouldn't Guts not prevailing against the God Hand be what would break the cycle? This is why I don't think this theory makes sense.

As a hand has five fingers it makes sense that the God Hand is composed of up to five members (considering that if they are not the God Hands there's supposed to be a single hand, hence five fingers). To keep up with the new members every couple centuries and incarnations every millenia a of purge seems legit.

We know there are supposed to be five members of the God Hand, no need to deduce it or anything.

(the child may become the next Skull Knight but this speculation is not my point)

I don't see how that is at all possible given that the boy shares his body with Femto. Guts is pretty clearly the equivalent of the Skull Knight in this scenario.
I also think you're using "struggler" a bit too loosely here. While the Skull Knight is an opponent of the God Hand much like Guts is, "struggler" is a word that fits Guts more than it does anyone else.

The "age of darkness". An age has a beginning and an end. There must be something after the age of darkness, it is only an age.

This is a specious argument. Why must there be something after it? Maybe it could go on until the end of times, if a power strong enough ensured things didn't change. And who's to say it isn't what the Idea of Evil and the God Hand want?

The black hawk does not bring "eternal darkness" to the world.

It's "Falcon of Darkness", and I don't think the fact the duration of the darkness he brings isn't specified is a strong argument.

The prophecy of the black hawk, known to both the church and witches, may refer the pattern.

I don't see how it is supposed to. It very clearly references the advent of Femto:

"When the sun will have died five times, a red lake will appear at the west of the city with a name both new and ancient, and it will be the sign that the fifth angel is born. The angel shall be a Falcon of Darkness. Both master of the sinful black sheep and king of the blind white sheep. The one who shall bring an age of darkness upon the world."

Even though I like this theory, I am absolutely not convinced that it is true, and many elements (especially timeline-wise about Gaiseric's empire, even though all we know about it is mere untrustworthy legends passed down through centuries) bug me. So I am more hoping to discuss it rather than see you agree.

I hope I have provided you with some food for thought! :serpico:

Offline Kraden

Re: Causality and destiny, the Berserk world follows a cyclic pattern
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 11:57:21 PM »
Thanks for your answer, this is exactly what I was hoping for. I wrote my reply starting from the bottom of your post and going up, quote by quote. I apologize for any repetitions, I kind of wrote my message backwards :casca:



For one thing, what would the purpose of this cycle be? The God Hand (and more importantly their master, the Idea of Evil) obviously has a specific goal in mind. They're not just part of a natural process of the world, they're willfully interfering with the natural order of things to execute a specific agenda. So, building on that, don't you think the Idea of Evil would have to be hugely incompetent in order for things to cycle over like this? One would expect it not to want to regularly lose its hold on the world (through its minions).

We do not know the God Hand or their master's goal, so we do not know the purpose of the pattern. Trying to have a specific event occur by manipulating humans? Humans are flawed, the God born of man could be flawed. Or patient.
Regularly loosing its hold on the world, maybe, but keeping it on humanity. Maybe humans could kill the Idea of Evil, so he prevents them from evolving and advancing past a point (in knowledge of the world?).

To compare with Mass Effect, in the first two games we have no idea why the reaping cycles are happening, what is the reaper's purpose, but this does not mean they don't have their pattern.

Maybe branding people brings something to the Idea of Evil, or ensuring the world sucks brings him the souls he wants for whatever thing he has in mind. Maybe he simply wants to bring the darkness to the world and is thwarted each time by those puny humans, and the following time he tries better.
Maybe there is an Idea of Good and the pattern successfully keeps it weak, weak enough for the Idea of Evil to accomplish.......?

There are so many things we do not know about the Berserk universe.

We know for a fact that magical beings (and magic in general) were a lot more prevalent in the distant past. It's referenced several times throughout the story.

I used "supposedly" in my sentence out of caution because I could not provide strongly translated quotes.

Femto's incarnation did initiate a change in the corporeal world, bringing it closer to the astral world, but it was nothing compared to what happened in volume 34, when the evil that Ganishka had gathered was unleashed upon the world. And that was painstakingly engineered and relied not just on the God Hand but on a strong convergence of events, notably the manipulation of Ganishka into doing what he did, and the manipulation of the Skull Knight into trying to attack Femto at that time with the weapon he had been fashioning for years by eating beherits. It's a hugely complex event honestly and I think you're explaining it away as a reoccurring factor far too easily.

I do not consider that what happened in volume 34 is part of the pattern. I do not believe our cycle follows the pattern, maybe due to the Skull Knight's intervention or Griffith's genius. It may have been the first time this happened. The Idea of Evil may have engineered the pattern waiting for something like this to happen.

Furthermore, I don't believe the Holy See's doctrine was in itself enough to completely "separate" the astral world from the corporeal one.

"Separate" may have been the wrong word, but I understood that humans can't touch spirits if they really don't believe in them. If they cannot be seen and are intangible they are pretty much in a different world altogether, except for their possible interactions with the world (like making a tree fall on someone).

But I understood that by no longer being believed in (helped by the Holy See's doctrine), the spirits were loosing their grasp on the world.

I think you've got it backward.

It may be humanity's nature to have conquerors rise, and the Idea of Evil uses this. Eventually an apostle will come to form an empire, stronger and more evil than a normal human empire. Which would give the opportunity to an incarnated God Hand member to unify the world under his banner in order to defeat it. Then when the remnants of humanity, the survivors of the age of darkness, are left to themselves, after some time there will be a conqueror.

Our cycle may be different from the others. This one may be the last, because of some unprecedented event. It may be the creation of the world helix tree. It could for example provide the opportunity for humanity to find a meaning to their suffering, effectively killing the Idea of Evil.

Now, we don't know much about Gaiseric's era. But we do know there were many conflicts, and a man rose above all others and united mankind. We know that a great city was built. Eventually the city was destroyed, and we know that people were branded during that time. Then we have the Skull Knight, who opposes the God Hand, and who is most likely to be Emperor Gaiseric himself. Going on an unsubstantiated assumption, let's say that Gaiseric was betrayed during that fateful event by someone close to him, a person who eventually became a member of the God Hand. And let's say that after those events, the astral world starts slowly receding from the corporeal one over hundreds of years, as the doctrine of the Holy See slowly takes roots.

Are we sure to know all this about Gaiseric's era? Reliable and trustworthy information? Were not all records of Gaiseric erased? (or they unsuccessfully tried to erase it)

There could have been a lot of misinformation in those legends.

We now have a perfect example of the "spiral of causality" in action. A thousand years later, we have another splendid warrior rising above all others. But this time, he is the one who betrays the people close to him in order to attain what he desires. A few years later, he comes back into the world as an invincible leader who unites the land, culminating by his unleashing of the astral world into the corporeal one. The world is instantly changed. The old capital city of Gaiseric is reborn in the Falcon's image, who also happens to be the messiah of the Holy See, and rules over a huge population like a god-king. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is suddenly very hostile to humans, much more so than it was before. Pretty much every single thing from a thousand years before has been emulated in a twisted way. And at the center of it all is the God Hand (the others are sure to manifest themselves in a form or another) and the apostles.

This goes along my theory well.

When the God Hand is purged, the world goes back to "uninfluenced state", in which it may be natural for a brilliant and ambitious human to rise and seize a huge part of the world.

Then a God Hand is born, destroying the actual regime. A thousand years later, the perfect warrior indirectly created by God/God Hand rises and follows the rails they built for him during the millennium. He ends up becoming the fifth and incarnating, thus creating a twisted emulation of the "uninfluenced state" world.

Then undetermined events come and bring and purge the God Hand, the world drifts back to "uninfluenced world".

We don't know quite what their end-goal is yet, except that it's not going to be good for anyone but them. However, I just don't see how a "purge" fits into the grand scheme. To me, the events from a thousand years ago were not just another version of a recurring cycle for the God Hand, but rather an inspiration that the Idea of Evil drew from to create the current events.

No, the events from a thousand years ago were absolutely not another version of the cycle. It was part of the actual cycle. The actual cycle could go like this:

Year 0 : Previous incarnation. Some undetermined time later, after undetermined events having taken an undetermined time, there is a purge. Much later Gaiseric rises to power.

Year 216 : Void's birth, Gaiseric's empire falls and he becomes a struggler.

Year 432 : New God Hand

Year 648 : New God Hand

Year 864 : New God Hand

Year 1080 : Femto's birth

Year 1082 : Femto's incarnation.


The dates could be tweaked (this timeline assumes the previous incarnation occured the same year as the God Hand preceding Void was born, but this is not relevant).

I like a lot what you said about the events from a thousand years ago inspiring the Idea of Evil into orchestrating the current events though.

How so? Isn't "purging the God Hand" a necessary part of the cycle? In this case, wouldn't Guts not prevailing against the God Hand be what would break the cycle? This is why I don't think this theory makes sense.

Yes! I have not said that Guts prevailing against the God Hand would break the cycle, or win against causality/destiny. But he could prevent the next cycle by who knows what means. Destroy beherits, kill the Idea of Evil through creating an Idea of Good, being killed and dragged to hell but stage a revolution there giving him the chance to kill God...

:ganishka:

The point is that if Guts manages to stop causality/destiny, the cycles will stop too. I was not talking about how he does it, or how it happens if he's not the one doing it (even if he may be the one giving the opportunity). I don't think he wants to screw causality and ruin the Idea of Evil's plans, he's in it because it's personal and he follows his own selfish goals (he wants the sane Casca back and revenge on Griffith).

We know there are supposed to be five members of the God Hand, no need to deduce it or anything.

What I was trying to say was more that God is a single handed person :serpico:
Five members of the God Hand, right. Only one hand however? But this is not relevant with the theory at all, the point was that there has to be a way to get rid of members, so if there is a new member every couple centuries eventually there has to be at least a member gone each millennium, hence suggesting a purge. But it could be that when getting old (about 1079 years old hehe) the God Hand are dragged to hell, ascend to another plane of existence. Are they said to be eternal beings?

I don't see how that is at all possible given that the boy shares his body with Femto. Guts is pretty clearly the equivalent of the Skull Knight in this scenario.

I also think you're using "struggler" a bit too loosely here. While the Skull Knight is an opponent of the God Hand much like Guts is, "struggler" is a word that fits Guts more than it does anyone else.

As I understand it, the child is a spiritual being and the Skull Knight too (having been said to have died using the berserker armour, often showing up during full moons). Envisioning that Casca and Guts die taking Femto down, the child could keep going on leading the next generation, but this is going too far into random speculations and is not relevant. I absolutely agree that Guts is more the equivalent to the Skull Knight.

About the word "struggler", I consider that in the present time, Guts is the only one. Casca, if she regains her senses and has to fend off the spirits too, may also be one, but not in her present state. But I consider that the Skull Knight was one back when he was still human. And there could have been other ones before him.

This is a specious argument. Why must there be something after it? Maybe it could go on until the end of times, if a power strong enough ensured things didn't change. And who's to say it isn't what the Idea of Evil and the God Hand want?

The use of "must" in my sentence was not supposed to mean "has to". What I meant is that the Falcon of Darkness is not said to bring darkness to the world, but bring AN age of darkness to the world. This age may not be final, but could.

I do not consider this an argument, as I merely put it in the list at the bottom of my post. It is a fact that coincides with the theory.

I don't see how it is supposed to. It very clearly references the advent of Femto:

"When the sun will have died five times, a red lake will appear at the west of the city with a name both new and ancient, and it will be the sign that the fifth angel is born. The angel shall be a Falcon of Darkness. Both master of the sinful black sheep and king of the blind white sheep. The one who shall bring an age of darkness upon the world."

It could also apply to the previous incarnated God Hand that we never heard of, and the one before, and so on.

The picture of volume 18 I put in my first post may indicate there was already some bird/wings imagery at Gaiseric's era. Maybe the Holy See spawned from the remnants of it. (Or Mozgus brought some decoration with him and put it on the walls.)
A God Hand is incarnated, adopting a winged/bird/feather imagery. Even after being defeated, the symbols, the buildings, the stones may remain. Allowing it to inspire the next generation to continue in its steps. Which in turn would influence the next incarnated God Hand : if the church adopts a bird theme for its symbolism/messiah/prophecies, embracing it would be the easiest way to have them following you.

This prophecy could absolutely work in the context of a recurring pattern. Like the thing about "age of darkness having an end", this is not an argument but only something that coincides with my theory. If there is a pattern the prophecy still works.





On a different matter, I remember the piles of dead branded bodies down the tower of Rebirth. They were not feasted upon by apostles. Maybe along purging the God Hand, apostles too are purged. When the world is in its "uninfluenced state" (or age of strife as I called it previously) as there are no God Hand alive, there is no one to make new apostles. When the first God Hand of the following cycle is born, no apostle is here to feast on the sacrificed.

If there is an incarnation every thousand years the events must be recurring, even if the current era is different from the previous ones (maybe the Idea of Evil found a better plan this time). However I am cautious about this incarnation being recurring as I am not sure if it is said that every millennium there is an incarnation, or if they can only incarnate once every thousand years.




In an effort to stop myself from writing an essay and rather have a discussion, I will wrap this up here. Thanks again for your answer, I have made my best to be relevant and constructive in my reply.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Causality and destiny, the Berserk world follows a cyclic pattern
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2015, 08:47:31 PM »
Thanks for your answer, this is exactly what I was hoping for. I wrote my reply starting from the bottom of your post and going up, quote by quote. I apologize for any repetitions, I kind of wrote my message backwards

Glad you like it. For the reply, well it's up to you, but I don't think starting from the bottom is the best way to do it.

We do not know the God Hand or their master's goal, so we do not know the purpose of the pattern. Trying to have a specific event occur by manipulating humans? Humans are flawed, the God born of man could be flawed. Or patient. Regularly loosing its hold on the world, maybe, but keeping it on humanity. Maybe humans could kill the Idea of Evil, so he prevents them from evolving and advancing past a point (in knowledge of the world?).

Sounds like a non-answer to me. We don't know what their ultimate goal is, but we know they have one. Meanwhile, nothing leads us to believe their goal is tied to a repeating cycle. You can't justify the existence of something there is no proof of by saying we don't know enough, or it's just unsubstantiated (which it is). Trying to have a specific event occur, being patient, those are irrelevant to the recurring cycle idea.

As for humans being "flawed", please define "flawed" in the context of the Idea of Evil? I can't think of a flaw that would take the Idea of Evil from absolute control to "losing its hold on the world somehow but not really" in a way that would achieve what you're proposing. It's unconvincing. Same with humans destroying the Idea of Evil. Assuming that's even possible, clearly the Idea of Evil having more control over the world should not be unfavorable to its survival. And indeed, right now humans have very little understanding of the world, and they rely almost exclusively on the Idea of Evil's agents for protection against astral threats to their safety. Whereas a thousand years ago people were, as far as we know, more in touch with the way the world works. This is contradictory to what you're proposing.

To compare with Mass Effect, in the first two games we have no idea why the reaping cycles are happening, what is the reaper's purpose, but this does not mean they don't have their pattern.

That's hardly a fitting comparison. First, because we do learn in Mass Effect 1 that the Protheans were wiped out by the Reapers and that they're coming back to do it again. And then we learn what they do with the organics they harvest in ME2. The fact it's a reoccurring event is an established fact, unlike in our case. Second, the contexts of the two stories are quite different, as is the amount of knowledge we have on the world and the enemy's motivations. In short I don't think there's much relevance to a side by side comparison, and I believe the fact Mass Effect's story inspired your theory is to your detriment.

Maybe branding people brings something to the Idea of Evil, or ensuring the world sucks brings him the souls he wants for whatever thing he has in mind. Maybe he simply wants to bring the darkness to the world and is thwarted each time by those puny humans, and the following time he tries better.
Maybe there is an Idea of Good and the pattern successfully keeps it weak, weak enough for the Idea of Evil to accomplish.......?

How does that make sense? Why would it benefit the Idea of Evil to relinquish power when it's at its peak? We know what branding does, and given the size of the Vortex of Souls it doesn't look like it's necessary to the Idea of Evil. Ensuring the world sucks would be best achieved by the Idea of Evil staying in control. As would be keeping a hypothetical foil too weak to act against it. None of these cases would be helped in the least by the cycle you're proposing.

As for the Idea of Evil being thwarted (by humans or other beings), that is actually by far the likeliest possibility, because it would be a logical course of action for each party. However, there is still a problem with your theory. The Skull Knight has tried and failed to defeat the God Hand on more than one occasion. The "master plan" has gone on unhindered by anything so far. If the end-goal were to be achieved (which you equate with the Age of Darkness), how could humans defeat the Idea of Evil? From the manga, we know that they cannot even harm Griffith unless they somehow are "outside of the story", like Guts is. And even then, the Skull Knight tried and failed. As for the Idea of Evil, it's even harder to reach than that, so hard that no one ever came back to tell about it, according to Flora. And we're in a time when magic is all but forgotten! So then, with the Idea of Evil at the peak of its power, how could it possibly be defeated? By whom? It's another big contradiction.

By the way, you equate the fall of a big city with the appearance of a member of the God Hand, but it would make no sense to destroy a city like Falconia, ruled by a member of the God Hand, in order for another member of the God Hand to be born. So you've made it into a weird double destruction, where it's destroyed once during the "purge" (which we still can't explain in any way), and then it's reused by a mere human who somehow unites all the land, only to be vanquished as a member of the God Hand arises again. And then a thousand years later, another member of the God Hand re-re-creates it? I'm not sure you see it, but it's kind of ridiculous man. That's because you're doing it backwards, like I said before. Instead of deducing what could be from the facts, you've got a theory you lifted off Mass Effect and you're trying to force Berserk into that mold. But that just doesn't work, and Gaiseric's capital or Falconia aren't the Citadel.

For one thing, the legends says Gaiseric, an emperor whose rule was unique in all history, had his giant city built, not that he rebuilt something that was already there. I'm sure you'll say it can be twisted to accomodate your theory, but you should realize that you're going against what's told in the story.

I used "supposedly" in my sentence out of caution because I could not provide strongly translated quotes.

And I gave you confirmation it's a sure thing and not supposed.

I do not consider that what happened in volume 34 is part of the pattern. I do not believe our cycle follows the pattern, maybe due to the Skull Knight's intervention or Griffith's genius. It may have been the first time this happened. The Idea of Evil may have engineered the pattern waiting for something like this to happen.

What? I don't see how that would make sense. But more importantly, what are you deriving your pattern from then? What was supposed to happen exactly during the cycle? This is starting to look very much like fan fiction to me. If the current events "don't count", then all that counts if the legend of what happened a thousand years ago, which is among the most unreliable knowledge of the world we have. And even then, you're taking big liberties with it.

"Separate" may have been the wrong word, but I understood that humans can't touch spirits if they really don't believe in them. If they cannot be seen and are intangible they are pretty much in a different world altogether, except for their possible interactions with the world (like making a tree fall on someone).

No, it's not like that. People didn't "see" Puck in Vritannis, but did that stop him from interacting with them? Nope. He played a few tricks on them. And Farnese, once she stopped ignoring him, remembered past interactions that hadn't registered before. Like I explained to you, if a troll or a specter comes across a human, do you think "not believing" will protect them? Again, nope. The effects of the Holy See's doctrine could not alone be responsible for the recession of the astral world from the corporeal one.

It may be humanity's nature to have conquerors rise, and the Idea of Evil uses this. Eventually an apostle will come to form an empire, stronger and more evil than a normal human empire. Which would give the opportunity to an incarnated God Hand member to unify the world under his banner in order to defeat it. Then when the remnants of humanity, the survivors of the age of darkness, are left to themselves, after some time there will be a conqueror.

It's like you're trying to prove my point about having it backward! Look at what you're saying. Your cycle needs an apostle conqueror to form an empire in order for an incarnated member of the God Hand to defeat him, under the guise of himself being a conqueror? And then after he is defeated in some unknown way, another conqueror comes around. You're extrapolating a whole system from a single occurrence.

Gaiseric had the biggest empire ever as far as we know. He was the one conqueror who unified the whole land and he had the biggest city ever built. It is likely that during his time astral creatures were more prevalent than they were before the advent of Fantasia, too. The similarities with what Griffith has done are undeniable, and yet Gaiseric was not an apostle nor a member of the God Hand. In fact he opposes them. Nothing fits.

Oh and while we're at it, who exactly would those survivors of the Age of Darkness be? It seems that pretty much all of Midland's population (and maybe of the surrounding countries as well) has been herded into Falconia, the rest of the world being too dangerous. If the city is destroyed, who will be left? And how could they repopulate a world in a mere, what, 160 years? There are too many inconsistencies.

Our cycle may be different from the others. This one may be the last, because of some unprecedented event. It may be the creation of the world helix tree. It could for example provide the opportunity for humanity to find a meaning to their suffering, effectively killing the Idea of Evil.

Ah, so the master plan of the Idea of Evil was to kill itself! My, you weren't kidding when you said it was flawed. :ganishka: Why would the God Hand's actions lead to their own demise? Why would events that were clearly engineered by the Idea of Evil lead to its undoing? It's not like the World Spiral Tree's appearance was a big, unanticipated surprise for them. And I don't think "finding a meaning to their suffering" would be enough to kill the Idea of Evil either, as if it were a simple trick. It's like for astral beings, you can't just not believe and they disappear.

Anyway, you know, I have a real problem with your idea that this cycle is different from the others. Since it's the only "cycle" we know of, then how do you even know there are other cycles to begin with? How do you know they're different? You might as well say that 3000 years before Gaiseric's reign there was an Asari colony on that planet that was wiped by the Reapers, it's just as baseless an assumption.

Are we sure to know all this about Gaiseric's era? Reliable and trustworthy information? Were not all records of Gaiseric erased? (or they unsuccessfully tried to erase it)

There could have been a lot of misinformation in those legends.

What I mentioned we do know, yes. Unless you're saying Gaiseric didn't exist? There was no empire, no big city? That's what you're quoting. And since to you the current events ("what happened in volume 34") are not part of the cycle, then what's left as a basis for your theory? Because you do rely quite heavily on Gaiseric's tale to establish it, even though you take big liberties. Like I already said, if you want to pursue this line of reasoning, you might as well relabel your theory as fan fiction.

This goes along my theory well.

Only because you're retrofitting anything and everything into your theory, to the point where everything we see in the manga is both part of a single cycle and not part of the typical cycle in your theory. You know, it's almost as if... there's just no cycle. The legend of Gaiseric is only accurate when it suits you, the rest doesn't count. The current events with Griffith are not part of the normal cycle for an unknown reason (because it's convenient), and while they bear strong similarities to what happened during Skull Knight's time, it's still just one weird cycle.

When the God Hand is purged, the world goes back to "uninfluenced state", in which it may be natural for a brilliant and ambitious human to rise and seize a huge part of the world.

That's quite a big assumption, that in less than 200 years such a man would systematically "naturally" arise from the ruins of the world. Would people have forgotten about the previous events, by the way? That's not such a long time. Also, the Idea of Evil is part of every human. How could it stop influencing them? How could it start influencing them again? And how do you propose it would both stop influencing the world and yet still influence it enough that it could lead to the birth of a new member of the God Hand? That does not make any sense. Keep in mind that the kind of manipulation through causality (the principle of cause and effect) needed to fashion such events takes a long time. It doesn't just happen overnight.

Then a God Hand is born, destroying the actual regime.

What about the 5 or 4 angels we're told about? You know, those that are said to have destroyed Gaiseric's capital city. Now, you might say that the legend is unreliable, and indeed, the story makes that clear by stressing that the number of beings would participated in the city's destruction is uncertain, but it still doesn't say one. And yet according to you, there should only be one member of the God Hand and that time, and that member would be the one responsible for the city's destruction. That's a huge inconsistency.

A thousand years later, the perfect warrior indirectly created by God/God Hand rises and follows the rails they built for him during the millennium. He ends up becoming the fifth and incarnating, thus creating a twisted emulation of the "uninfluenced state" world.

Why indirectly? What's more indirect about him than about the others? And what's the point of emulating a former time within your cycle theory? It's a cycle within a cycle. I still don't see either a reason for it or any proof that it exists.

No, the events from a thousand years ago were absolutely not another version of the cycle. It was part of the actual cycle.

Reading this line the first time was actually mind-boggling. I've addressed it earlier but I really think you should give what you're saying here a long, hard look.

Year 0 : Previous incarnation. Some undetermined time later, after undetermined events having taken an undetermined time, there is a purge. Much later Gaiseric rises to power.

I hate to hammer in on the same thing over and over again, but this completely groundless. You've essentially made it up, and it could be replaced by: "Year 0: The robots overlords are finally vanquished after having ruled for a million years. The X-Men return to Earth-616. Much later Gaiseric rises to power."

I like a lot what you said about the events from a thousand years ago inspiring the Idea of Evil into orchestrating the current events though.

Thanks, it clearly seems to be the case to me, although there are still many unknowns. Honestly I thought it was what you were going for at first, that those similarities were the basis for your theory. But the actual way you mean it is even more puzzling to me.

Yes! I have not said that Guts prevailing against the God Hand would break the cycle, or win against causality/destiny. But he could prevent the next cycle by who knows what means. Destroy beherits, kill the Idea of Evil through creating an Idea of Good, being killed and dragged to hell but stage a revolution there giving him the chance to kill God...

The point is that if Guts manages to stop causality/destiny, the cycles will stop too. I was not talking about how he does it, or how it happens if he's not the one doing it (even if he may be the one giving the opportunity). I don't think he wants to screw causality and ruin the Idea of Evil's plans, he's in it because it's personal and he follows his own selfish goals (he wants the sane Casca back and revenge on Griffith).

But you're taking this far more lightly than you should be. "Causality" in itself is nothing, it's just a principle. The relation between an event and another (cause and effect). What makes it important is the fact the Idea of Evil is using it to influence the course of events in the world. That is how it creates apostles and members of the God Hand. The problem for your theory is that causality can't be defeated. It's the Idea of Evil that should be. And that's a tall order given what it is. Furthermore, right now the best way to strike against the Idea of Evil would be... to destroy the God Hand. We're again faced with the illogical fact that for your cycle to reset, the Idea of Evil at the peak of its power has to relinquish all it has and go back to what is essentially non-existence (so that the world is "uninfluenced"). And despite that state, a member of the God Hand must still arise 200 years later.

What I was trying to say was more that God is a single handed person :serpico:
Five members of the God Hand, right. Only one hand however? But this is not relevant with the theory at all, the point was that there has to be a way to get rid of members, so if there is a new member every couple centuries eventually there has to be at least a member gone each millennium, hence suggesting a purge. But it could be that when getting old (about 1079 years old hehe) the God Hand are dragged to hell, ascend to another plane of existence. Are they said to be eternal beings?

Why assume there necessarily were previous members? Maybe Void was the very first one. Maybe there isn't supposed to be another one now that Femto is born. It's not like Occultation ceremonies must happen every 216 years, rather, they can only happen every 216 years. Do you think the Idea of Evil is forced to go through the motions even if it doesn't need or want to? That'd be ridiculous.

Maybe there was another group before the current one that we haven't heard about, a God Hand that was vanquished somehow, in mysterious circumstances (like, say by a coalition of humans and astral beings). There failure would have left a void (har har) that needed to be filled, and eventually another member would be created. That could make sense. But an endless cycle that would necessitate everything, from the lives of previous members to the very plans of the Idea of Evil to contort to fit its schedule? No way.

As I understand it, the child is a spiritual being and the Skull Knight too (having been said to have died using the berserker armour, often showing up during full moons). Envisioning that Casca and Guts die taking Femto down, the child could keep going on leading the next generation, but this is going too far into random speculations and is not relevant. I absolutely agree that Guts is more the equivalent to the Skull Knight.

The boy isn't purely spiritual, otherwise Femto would have had no use for his body... That's what "incarnation" means: "to be embodied in flesh". However he clearly has a unique status and special powers, not only because of how he was born, but because of the incarnation. As for the Skull Knight, we don't really know. He's hollow inside, but he does still seem to have some corporeal components about him (his armor). As for showing up during full moons, I don't see the relation. The Skull Knight also showed up during the Eclipse or at Flora's place.

But anyway, none of this matters compared to what you're saying about how the child will keep going after Femto's death. You're saying it so casually while it's likely to be one of the biggest unknowns of the series until its very end.

About the word "struggler", I consider that in the present time, Guts is the only one. Casca, if she regains her senses and has to fend off the spirits too, may also be one, but not in her present state. But I consider that the Skull Knight was one back when he was still human. And there could have been other ones before him.

You're missing the point. "Struggler" is directly tied to Guts. It's not some special category of people, it's just how the Skull Knight called Guts when he first met him, commenting on how he'd struggled all his life. You're making it into something it isn't.

The use of "must" in my sentence was not supposed to mean "has to". What I meant is that the Falcon of Darkness is not said to bring darkness to the world, but bring AN age of darkness to the world. This age may not be final, but could.

Uh, Ok, but "have to" is what "must" means. Also, I don't think you should focus on articles too much here. "An" age, "the" age, those are English distinctions.

It could also apply to the previous incarnated God Hand that we never heard of, and the one before, and so on.

All of the previous fifth members of the God Hand (why do you assume it's always the fifth member that must be incarnated?) we never heard about, going back in time to infinity, were all also specifically called the Falcon of Darkness? Reaaaaaaaaaally? :schierke:

This prophecy could absolutely work in the context of a recurring pattern. Like the thing about "age of darkness having an end", this is not an argument but only something that coincides with my theory. If there is a pattern the prophecy still works.

Well of course it could, it's just that each cycle is exactly similar, in every aspect, to the current one, except when the current one is non-standard.

On a different matter, I remember the piles of dead branded bodies down the tower of Rebirth. They were not feasted upon by apostles. Maybe along purging the God Hand, apostles too are purged. When the world is in its "uninfluenced state" (or age of strife as I called it previously) as there are no God Hand alive, there is no one to make new apostles. When the first God Hand of the following cycle is born, no apostle is here to feast on the sacrificed.

There are stranger things about these bodies than the fact they weren't eaten, for example the way they're all perfectly branded on the forehead. As for the purge, obviously if the world were, according to you, to be "uninfluenced", then apostles must not exist in it. But, as I pointed out before, if it were truly "uninfluenced", the Idea of Evil would not be able to prepare the rise of another member of the God Hand.

If there is an incarnation every thousand years the events must be recurring, even if the current era is different from the previous ones (maybe the Idea of Evil found a better plan this time). However I am cautious about this incarnation being recurring as I am not sure if it is said that every millennium there is an incarnation, or if they can only incarnate once every thousand years.

Ahhh, I appreciate your smartness in this. The way the Skull Knight says it in Japanese is that such a thing is a "once in a thousand years event". So it's vague, and more like the latter.

In an effort to stop myself from writing an essay and rather have a discussion, I will wrap this up here. Thanks again for your answer, I have made my best to be relevant and constructive in my reply.

No problem.

Offline Kraden

Re: Causality and destiny, the Berserk world follows a cyclic pattern
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2015, 02:04:41 AM »
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That's because you're doing it backwards, like I said before. Instead of deducing what could be from the facts, you've got a theory you lifted off Mass Effect and you're trying to force Berserk into that mold.

This is starting to look very much like fan fiction to me.

if you want to pursue this line of reasoning, you might as well relabel your theory as fan fiction
I am actually trying to make sense out of the Berserk universe. I am not here to force down your throat a fanfiction or a theory lifted off Mass Effect.
You seem to have gone from "I think you're..." to flat out telling what I'm doing. I choose to stick to a courteous debate in which I do not make statements about you, your intentions or your understanding of Berserk.


Seeing how much you mentioned me personally, instead of my ideas, I want to clear things up about myself.

I have been a weekly visitor of this forum for the past seven months or so and decided to sign up to be a part of your community more actively and discuss my theory with you. Yes, I even put it in my first post, I made this post to discuss my theory. May it be proven true or false, I end up with a better understanding of the Berserk universe.

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I believe the fact Mass Effect's story inspired your theory is to your detriment

you've got a theory you lifted off Mass Effect

This is simply wrong. What I said is that Mass Effect and The Matrix has most likely influenced me, not that it inspired me.

Here is how I thought of it.

First the premise and how I approach the Berserk universe.

Berserk is a manga. Obvious enough, it is still very important. A manga is very visual. Why are all the bodies down the tower of Rebirth branded on the forehead ? Because it is visual. It makes it striking and easy to understand. A manga has storytelling. It has to be well paced, have surprises, build a climax etc. To make a good manga you do not have to explain absolutely everything. Show only what is relevant and interesting. As the previous cycles do not have anything to do with the actual story, there is absolutely no point in mentioning them. Last but not least, a manga is written by someone.  Someone with his own understanding of things, someone with his own beliefs. Maybe to Miura, causality means something more that is written in the dictionary. Maybe he has a premise you may not agree with, like in Mass Effect the fact that AI will always rebel and try to destroy organics. You may disagree with it, but the story is based upon it. For a Berserk-related example : the Idea of Evil's goal may seem absolutely lame and stupid to some readers, but really appeal and make sense to Miura.

All this to say that I do not take everything at face value. I keep my mind open to other interpretations, I try not to forget that some elements may have a very mundane explanation.

Berserk is written from the character's perspective. There is no reliable omniscient narrator. As such, what we know is what the characters know or tell, which may be false. This is one of the ways to set up a twist. So when you say that I should realize I'm going against what's told in the story, this is something I deliberately do.

Now the premise :
  • A God Hand member is born every 216 years. (may not be true, a ceremony could end with the person refusing to sacrifice)
  • One of them incarnates every millennium. (most likely wrong, as the Skull Knight did not state this as a fact)
  • There are only up to five members at a time (one by finger, only a single hand)
  • There has already been another set of God Hand members (the four/five angels of Gaiseric's legend)
  • Mankind used to be accustomed to spirits but not longer are
  • The Holy See church is " recent " (vol 25 an old man says his grandfather told him about the river spirit's temple, the word recent standing for many centuries but not a millenium, to give an example something like 600 years)
  • On this picture, the left wall decoration is very reminding of Falconia (the symbol on the right appears on Gaiseric's torso and shield)
  • There is always war (given enough time a conflict will happen)
  • There is an age of darkness. Could have been other ones, most likely followed by another age.

These are not confirmed proven facts, this is the premise I started with.

If the Idea of Evil is born of the common consciousness of mankind, born because they wanted reasons for their lives, it seems logical that it is pretty old. Not about a couple millennia old but much more. If beherits are its main tools, influencing their owner's destinies, they must be ancient too. Then if there must be God Hands in order to make apostles, and if the main use of a beherit is reincarnating someone in an apostle, this must have also been done for a long time.

There is a new God Hand every 216 years and this has been spanning for thousands of years. (again, this is not fact, this is the line of thought from the premise) They are not the God Fingers, they are the God Hands, meant to be five. So it's not like one (or more) of them gets killed before they are full for millenia. Adding to this the incarnation that takes place every millenium, in order to make this work it seems natural to recurrently wipe them (may not be the Idea of Evil's intention but what happens anyways).

The Idea of Evil could have been trying to get a specific event to unfold (like the world helix tree for example) to be able to give the reason humanity always wanted. Its only way of acting being by influencing humans (free will getting in the way, or whatever) it took time but finally happened, and this is what we see. What happened before is irrelevant, it does not matter and has no reason to be shown or mentioned.

Hence the theory : the Idea of Evil made a circle of causality to get events the way it wanted. It's actually more a spiral than a circle, even if it may look otherwise, because events not always unfold the same way. If the Skull Knight and Flora are only aware of the history of the world up to a certain point (spirits could tell them, even if they themselves don't understand, like for example the elf king), and do not know about the Idea of Evil, the Skull Knight could have thought that there was a circle causality-engineered events by the God Hand, bound to happen again, even if he fights against it (and can fight it, being outside the tale), to which Flora disagrees. They (and the reader) do not know the purpose of this.


This is pretty much how I came to think of my theory. When I said that it " has most likely been influenced by the Mass Effect universe and The Matrix series " (sentence I carefully phrased), this was meant to mean that I realised afterwards the similarities between these series and the cyclic theory. But this is first a Berserk theory, based on my understanding of the story. No, I did not play Mass Effect and shout " omagawd this wouldz be so badass in BerserK lol ". It's actually closer to The Matrix than Mass Effect, with the cycle happening because of human nature.



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You can't justify the existence of something there is no proof of by saying we don't know enough, or it's just unsubstantiated (which it is).
Which is why I don't justify it, but merely suggest it. This is simply a theory.

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As for humans being "flawed", please define "flawed" in the context of the Idea of Evil?
Simple, a flawed God can be thwarted/defeated. It can fail. It is not " perfect ". A God is not simply a superior being (with magical powers), it is more, it is divine. A God that can be defeated is a flawed God in my sense. It is flawed because, as a God, it has limits.

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That's hardly a fitting comparison. First, because we do learn in Mass Effect 1 that the Protheans were wiped out by the Reapers and that they're coming back to do it again. And then we learn what they do with the organics they harvest in ME2. The fact it's a reoccurring event is an established fact, unlike in our case.
You asked me what is the Idea of Evil's goal, my answer is that we are not supposed to yet know, so I don't know. Does not mean there is no purpose to its actions in the context of my theory.

I have not brought up Mass Effect to make a side by side comparison, in ME the story revolves around the cycles, the reaping cycles are the goal of the Reapers. In my theory, the cycles are only a mean for the Idea of Evil to succeed in whatever it’s trying to do. The previous cycles may be failures or necessary steps, but they do not matter to Guts (and the reader).

We do not need to see the Joker get out of bed, go to the bathroom, eat, think about trapping Batman, make the preparations etc. We need to see Batman get into the trap and figure a way to thwart it.

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How does that make sense? Why would it benefit the Idea of Evil to relinquish power when it's at its peak?
We do not know how the world works. There may be a counterpart to the Idea of Evil, like something creating life, and the Idea of Evil only controlling destinies. Or having all five members of the God Hand is already having such an effect on the world that it could destroy it, hence the purge.

The world helix tree is most likely a game changer, maybe what the Idea of Evil wanted, to really peak its power and change the world, instead of only influencing humans forever.

What really stands out with the world helix tree is that it was created by the combined actions of a God Hand, an apostle (or super apostle) and the Skull Knight (didn't Flora call him a friend from the realm of the dead ? does that make him a spirit ?) using a beherit made weapon. There was no human involved. Only beings created by the Idea of Evil and the Skull Knight using the Idea of Evil’s own tools.

(Actually there were two more apostle there but they did nothing more than watch and did not take an active part in the world helix tree's formation. Femto could have most likely gotten there without Zodd if he wanted to)

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We know what branding does
Really ? There was some mysterious implications about being branded in Schierke’s conversation with Flora. I don’t think we know everything about what being branded does. Does it allow Guts’s strength to go beyond what’s humanly possible ? Does it affect his longevity (kind of like Flora outliving normal human lifespan) ? You are condemned to hell, and then what happens to your soul there ? You may end up getting merged with the other souls but then...?

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For one thing, the legends says Gaiseric, an emperor whose rule was unique in all history, had his giant city built, not that he rebuilt something that was already there.
And when destroyed, another city was built there. It could have happened before.

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No, it's not like that. People didn't "see" Puck in Vritannis, but did that stop him from interacting with them? Nope. He played a few tricks on them.
This may be a mistranslation but I read Schierke saying in volume 24 while eating with Guts and co at Flora’s house that a human body that strongly feels ethereal beings will think of them as if they were real substance, enabling them to see and touch them. As knowledge of elves' existence kept passing to the world since ancient times, it enables people to see and touch them.

I may have read a wrong translation but this implies that it's possible for spirits to be intangible.

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Your cycle needs an apostle conqueror to form an empire in order for an incarnated member of the God Hand to defeat him, under the guise of himself being a conqueror?

Oh and while we're at it, who exactly would those survivors of the Age of Darkness be?

Some people managed to survive the tower of conviction’s events by themselves, there may be different ways of repelling spirits. I don’t think there has been another world helix tree before, so the world merge was not necessarily as extreme. Rather things like troll attacks, as was in the village, and the rule of a cruel demon king.

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Ah, so the master plan of the Idea of Evil was to kill itself!
Why would the God Hand's actions lead to their own demise? Why would events that were clearly engineered by the Idea of Evil lead to its undoing?

The Idea of Evil is not a human being, why would it have some sense of self preservation ? It has purpose and tries to accomplish it. When done it could as well vanish. If humanity once more wants a reason for their lives the Idea of Evil will be born anew. No need to keep surviving.

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Unless you're saying Gaiseric didn't exist? There was no empire, no big city? That's what you're quoting.
No. A little story, given time, can become a huge legend. Someone thought of irrigation ? Give it 300 years and there may be a story of some water wielding demigod that taught people how to do this.

It’s not that there was no empire or big city, only that it may be different from how the legend goes. I said that « there could have been a lot of misinformation in those legends », not that they were absolutely false. Was it not said that records of Gaiseric were erased ? Then what we know may be a deformation of the actual facts.

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That's quite a big assumption, that in less than 200 years such a man would systematically "naturally" arise from the ruins of the world.
Maybe war is part of human nature. I don’t think we have heard of a time period in Berserk without war. Gaiseric conquered a huge part of the world. Chuder tried to conquer Midland. The Kushan empire was already fighting church allied countries, as said by Serpico, and ended up attacking Midland too. After all it was an empire so we can presume it waged war before, as seen in Ganishka’s flashback.

So war may very well be a systematic occurrence. War, extending territory, hence conqueror.

And this may be why the Idea of Evil does not need to always influence directly events for them to unfold the way it wants. This is what I meant by stopping to influence them, not that it could not, only that the events were already happening how it wanted to, because it knows human nature and exploits it.

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Why indirectly? What's more indirect about him than about the others? And what's the point of emulating a former time within your cycle theory?
Indirectly because the Idea of Evil did not incarnate like Zeus to conceive a child with a woman, nor dit it make in immaculate conception. It influenced people for him to be bred. This is indirect.

The point is to finally succeed in the events unfolding the way needed for what the Idea of Evil wants to happen. The Idea of Evil learns and gets better every time, and Gaiseric’s life/actions could have taught it something about how to bring the perfect one the next time.

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Reading this line the first time was actually mind-boggling. I've addressed it earlier but I really think you should give what you're saying here a long, hard look.
It depends on which events you refer to. I was talking about all that Gaiseric stuff, which is said in story to have happened a thousand years ago. Maybe you should have given it a long, hard look first.

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Why assume there necessarily were previous members?
Because having an incarnation every millennium was part of the premise, and it implies previous occurrences. Part of the premise was likely false, and this is why I wanted to discuss the theory. To find out which parts.

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But anyway, none of this matters compared to what you're saying about how the child will keep going after Femto's death. You're saying it so casually while it's likely to be one of the biggest unknowns of the series until its very end.
It was only one supposition about what could happen after the end. I could make a different topic with dozens of different suppositions on this matter.

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You're missing the point. "Struggler" is directly tied to Guts. It's not some special category of people, it's just how the Skull Knight called Guts when he first met him, commenting on how he'd struggled all his life. You're making it into something it isn't.
I thought the Skull Knight called him this way because of the brand, but I think you’re right.

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Uh, Ok, but "have to" is what "must" means. Also, I don't think you should focus on articles too much here. "An" age, "the" age, those are English distinctions.
Online dictionary
to be reasonably expected to; is bound to ex : It must have stopped raining by now. She must be at least 60.

This is how I used « must », and this is what I intended to describe.

I think you are right about the articles too, I accorded way too much importance to the « an » age of darkness. This distinction could not exist in Japanese (or not have been used in this particular Japanese sentence).

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All of the previous fifth members of the God Hand (why do you assume it's always the fifth member that must be incarnated?) we never heard about, going back in time to infinity, were all also specifically called the Falcon of Darkness? Reaaaaaaaaaally? :schierke:

The four first members pave the way for the fifth to be exactly as the Idea of Evil wants it to be. Then it does its thing, as the Idea of Evil told Griffith to. It ends up failing.

Why did Griffith take this « Falcon » persona ? Could he not have been inspired by the bird imagery of the Holy See church that announced the coming of a Falcon of Light ? Considering, as part of the premise (that may be false) that the Holy See church spawned after a few God Hand members were born, it may have been their work. Their tool for different purposes, including manipulating Griffith’s life.





Well, to conclude I will say that I don’t consider that the God Hand is the first one, or that they are the second after the previous one (mentioned in Gaiseric’s legend) because that would make the Idea of Evil and use of beherits very recent, and it would be lame to me. It’s a matter of opinion, you may not share this view, but this is one of the things I was referring to when talking about not agreeing with an author. I prefer to think the Idea of Evil as a very very ancient being that has been doing its thing for a long long time, not one that has come to activity in the last two thousand years. I prefer to think of it as the embodiment of a part of human nature, hence being almost as old as humanity.

And to wrap this up I will point out that this is not my only theory about the Berserk universe. This is one I wanted to share and discuss. This is not « how the Berserk world works to me ». Only « one of the ways I envision the world working ». So there's no need for things like "don't you think X makes more sense?". Yes, I most likely do, and this is most likely part of another theory of mine.

Alright, once again thank you for your answer. You have taken the time to read me and extensively answer to what I wrote. This is something a appreciate a lot.
This reply has taken some time, this half of the week has been busy and I have taken my time to try to make this a worthwhile read, even if my ideas can be ridiculous to you :serpico:

Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 05:09:49 PM by Kraden »

Offline The Ruffled Swordsman

Re: Causality and destiny, the Berserk world follows a cyclic pattern
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2015, 07:48:03 PM »


I think there are several problems with the basis of your argument. For one thing, what would the purpose of this cycle be? The God Hand (and more importantly their master, the Idea of Evil) obviously has a specific goal in mind. They're not just part of a natural process of the world, they're willfully interfering with the natural order of things to execute a specific agenda. So, building on that, don't you think the Idea of Evil would have to be hugely incompetent in order for things to cycle over like this? One would expect it not to want to regularly lose its hold on the world (through its minions).


I don't know if any of the cycles in berserk, mean that the world of fantasy and reality have merged before in the distinct way that they have with fempto.

But there is clearly a cylical nature of fate that the god hand relies on, in order to advance their "goals."

We know there was a similar event to the eclipse that leveled an area, that we learn of even before the first eclipse occurs.

I always thought that was probably another member of the god hand coming into existence, not a reoccurring fifth one.

But there isn't anything about a cylical process that would be in opposition to what the god hand wanted.

Unless you assume that the world resetting in some way is somehow a failure on their part.

When we don't really know what there exact goal is except to come into the world, i don't know how it could be a failure, when it seems like just something that gradually over time they have been getting closer to their goal.

It could have taken so many cycles for them to reach where they are at in whatever over arching agenda they have to be completed.


Also most of the events that have been failures for the god hand, they have used as to work as favors in some sense of another.

Every night Guts is accosted by demons and apparitions in attempt to claim someone with the brand, but they aren't "planning" for him to escape, however they have used his continued survival in whatever events they do orchestrate.

They call for the emperor to heed his apostle nature and bow to griffith and he resists, but they use the events that occured specificially because of his rebellion as if it were predetermined that he would do so.

The mysterious way in which the god hand works seems to suggest, that you can't rule out what they do as a failure because it appear to be.

Even small victories have a way of bleeding into their designs.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Causality and destiny, the Berserk world follows a cyclic pattern
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2015, 12:35:36 AM »
I am actually trying to make sense out of the Berserk universe. I am not here to force down your throat a fanfiction or a theory lifted off Mass Effect.
You seem to have gone from "I think you're..." to flat out telling what I'm doing. I choose to stick to a courteous debate in which I do not make statements about you, your intentions or your understanding of Berserk.

Forcing something down my throat isn't the issue. You made this thread saying you had a theory you were absolutely not convinced was true, and that you wanted to discuss it. So I pointed out problems, and you're arguing back over them. Isn't that what discussing is about? So please, spare me the customary hypersensitivy regarding how I go about pointing out what are, to me, crippling flaws in your proposition. My time is precious and given the amount of text I have to reply to, I'm just not going to precede every single statement with "I think" or other niceties. If you believe not doing so is uncourteous then you must not be very familiar with the Internet, because there's much, much worse out there. Lastly, it seems to me you're implying more than enough about me right here... But whether you like it or not, I'm in a position of authority when it comes to Berserk. It's the resulting benefit of having spent the last 15 years doing it, and having had some success at it.

Seeing how much you mentioned me personally, instead of my ideas, I want to clear things up about myself.

I only talk about you in regard to the fact you're the single proponent of the theory we're discussing. It's simply false (and rather presumptuous) to say my previous post is about you personally more than it is about what you say. It's all about your ideas. But you just can't put forward a theory you label your own and then distance yourself from it, and demand that I only speak of it without questioning your intent as its creator. That's not how it works.

As the previous cycles do not have anything to do with the actual story, there is absolutely no point in mentioning them.

Anything can be justified that way, which is why I equated your theory to fan fiction. Since it does not have any ground in the story, there is no reason for anyone to believe it's true. And there is absolutely no point in discussing it either, since you'll always just say "but you can't prove it's not true!"

Last but not least, a manga is written by someone.  Someone with his own understanding of things, someone with his own beliefs. Maybe to Miura, causality means something more that is written in the dictionary. Maybe he has a premise you may not agree with, like in Mass Effect the fact that AI will always rebel and try to destroy organics. You may disagree with it, but the story is based upon it. For a Berserk-related example : the Idea of Evil's goal may seem absolutely lame and stupid to some readers, but really appeal and make sense to Miura.

This really strikes me as the peak of arrogance: using Miura as a vessel for your opinions. I don't know Miura personally, but I know what he means when he writes "因果律", and there is absolutely no doubt in mind my that I have a better understanding of him than you do. So by all means, please stop this.

All this to say that I do not take everything at face value. I keep my mind open to other interpretations, I try not to forget that some elements may have a very mundane explanation.

Saying you stay open to "other interpretations" while also saying things may have a very mundane explanation seems contradictory. In any case, how you think of yourself is irrelevant to the issue at hand: your theory.

Berserk is written from the character's perspective. There is no reliable omniscient narrator.

That depends, there sometimes is narration, like at the beginning of episode 126.

As such, what we know is what the characters know or tell, which may be false. This is one of the ways to set up a twist. So when you say that I should realize I'm going against what's told in the story, this is something I deliberately do.

That characters might be wrong about something is nothing new, it's happened before in the story, and I myself pointed out how the tale of Gaiseric's fall is introduced as unreliable in the first place. However there are limits to where you can take this to build an argument. Arguing that something isn't 100% sure is by itself not much of a basis to build a theory on.

If the Idea of Evil is born of the common consciousness of mankind, born because they wanted reasons for their lives, it seems logical that it is pretty old. Not about a couple millennia old but much more.

As a reminder, episode 83 is non-canon. Putting that aside, the Idea of Evil wasn't born because people wanted reasons for their lives. To quote the relevant parts, they wanted "reasons why their lives were filled with suffering, reasons why their deaths were absurd, reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge." As for how old its consciousness is, I don't see how we could possibly estimate it.

If beherits are its main tools, influencing their owner's destinies, they must be ancient too.

Causality is the Idea of Evil's main tool. It is what allows it to shape the world. We have no idea when beherits first came into circulation.

There is a new God Hand every 216 years and this has been spanning for thousands of years. (again, this is not fact, this is the line of thought from the premise)

Yes indeed, it's not a fact, and you have no way to prove it, as I've said earlier. I don't see what the use is in repeating the groundless premise your theory is based on instead of addressing the problems I pointed out with it.

in order to make this work it seems natural to recurrently wipe them (may not be the Idea of Evil's intention but what happens anyways).

So you devised the idea of cycles in order to make something else you'd thought up work. You said earlier that sometimes things can have mundane explanations. So why you not apply Occam's Razor to this? Revising your original assumption is a lot simpler than inventing more and more unsubstantiated scenarios to make it work.

The Idea of Evil could have been trying to get a specific event to unfold (like the world helix tree for example) to be able to give the reason humanity always wanted.

I don't think you quite understand that whole "reasons" thing. The Idea of Evil's existence is enough in itself. It produces the "reasons" by controlling people's destiny through causality. That's pretty much word for word what it tells Griffith in episode 83.

Its only way of acting being by influencing humans (free will getting in the way, or whatever) it took time but finally happened, and this is what we see. What happened before is irrelevant, it does not matter and has no reason to be shown or mentioned.

Free will getting in the way? Hardly, as far as we know. And if what happened before is irrelevant, does not matter and has no reason to be shown or mentioned, why did you make a thread about it? I'm sorry to repeat myself with this, but we're firmly in fan fiction territory here.

If the Skull Knight and Flora are only aware of the history of the world up to a certain point (spirits could tell them, even if they themselves don't understand, like for example the elf king), and do not know about the Idea of Evil, the Skull Knight could have thought that there was a circle causality-engineered events by the God Hand, bound to happen again, even if he fights against it (and can fight it, being outside the tale), to which Flora disagrees. They (and the reader) do not know the purpose of this.

This paragraph does not make any sense whatsoever. And I think you're misinterpreting Flora's line about causality, or at the very least taking it out waaaay out of its context. You're also ignoring what she says about the Abyss.

Which is why I don't justify it, but merely suggest it. This is simply a theory.

I think you do try to justify a lot of things here despite saying you're open to criticism regarding your "theory". And as a matter of fact, since it's entirely based on things you've thought up, I don't think it can be called a theory. It's more of a story.

Simple, a flawed God can be thwarted/defeated. It can fail. It is not " perfect ". A God is not simply a superior being (with magical powers), it is more, it is divine. A God that can be defeated is a flawed God in my sense. It is flawed because, as a God, it has limits.

What's the difference between having magical powers and being divine? Isn't a god "divine" by definition? Also, a god not being omnipotent isn't the same as it being flawed. And I still don't see how any flaw would lead the Idea of Evil to go from a state of absolute control to a diminished one. You haven't addressed the meat of what I said at all.

You asked me what is the Idea of Evil's goal, my answer is that we are not supposed to yet know, so I don't know. Does not mean there is no purpose to its actions in the context of my theory.

No, but you can't explain what you purport its actions to be in the context of your theory in order to make said theory possible, which is a bit of a problem. Meanwhile in the actual story the God Hand clearly seem to have a plan laid out, and that plan does not particularly support your theory.

I have not brought up Mass Effect to make a side by side comparison, in ME the story revolves around the cycles, the reaping cycles are the goal of the Reapers. In my theory, the cycles are only a mean for the Idea of Evil to succeed in whatever it’s trying to do. The previous cycles may be failures or necessary steps, but they do not matter to Guts (and the reader).

You're the one that brought up the comparison, not me. And yes, in Mass Effect the cycles are an integral part of the villains' motive, as they have a use for them. Whereas here you cannot seem to find a use for them, but are still determined that they exist, while not being hinted at in any way, nor being important to the story or the reader. I don't think it's too hard to see why I find this quite far-fetched.

We do not need to see the Joker get out of bed, go to the bathroom, eat, think about trapping Batman, make the preparations etc. We need to see Batman get into the trap and figure a way to thwart it.

Your theory is akin to saying the Joker is dead and it's actually a clone created by extraterrestrials that set up that trap Batman just walked in, but since no one cares and it's not important, nothing will ever prove it happened.

We do not know how the world works.

On the contrary, we know many things about how the world works.

There may be a counterpart to the Idea of Evil, like something creating life, and the Idea of Evil only controlling destinies. Or having all five members of the God Hand is already having such an effect on the world that it could destroy it, hence the purge.

You're grasping at straws.

The world helix tree is most likely a game changer, maybe what the Idea of Evil wanted, to really peak its power and change the world, instead of only influencing humans forever.

Fantasia in general is a game changer for the world and the story, but neither that nor the tree or anything else can be reliably tied to your theory. How would the tree help the Idea of Evil change the world more than it already can? I mean the current state of the world (including the tree) is its doing, and controlling the fate of mankind seems to be what it's all about.

What really stands out with the world helix tree is that it was created by the combined actions of a God Hand, an apostle (or super apostle) and the Skull Knight (didn't Flora call him a friend from the realm of the dead ? does that make him a spirit ?) using a beherit made weapon. There was no human involved. Only beings created by the Idea of Evil and the Skull Knight using the Idea of Evil’s own tools.

...And? Yeah, the Idea of Evil did it, sure. Its plan went formidably well. Ganishka was used to make Fantasia happen. That's the big deal, the tree is only part of it. Anyway, I fail to see what's unexpected about this, except for the fact that the Skull Knight was tricked into putting the final touch on it all. And as you mention, he's using a beherit sword, and Femto tells him directly that it was easy to anticipate that he would seize a chance to attack. But it's still a testament to the Idea of Evil's considerable power. As for what the Skull Knight is, he's a spirit in a magical suit of armor, yeah. He died long ago, and somehow became what he is now.

But I don't understand why you say there was no human involved. The Skull Knight was once human, as were all the apostles and the members of the God Hand. They're just humans who've become monsters, so in truth the entire thing revolved exclusively around humans.

Really ? There was some mysterious implications about being branded in Schierke’s conversation with Flora. I don’t think we know everything about what being branded does. Does it allow Guts’s strength to go beyond what’s humanly possible ? Does it affect his longevity (kind of like Flora outliving normal human lifespan) ? You are condemned to hell, and then what happens to your soul there ? You may end up getting merged with the other souls but then...?

You said "maybe branding people brings something to the Idea of Evil". As far as we know, it does not. Yes, they would end up in the Vortex.

And when destroyed, another city was built there. It could have happened before.

A completely different city on a vastly smaller scale. It's not comparable to Falconia or to Gaiseric's old capital city, whereas everyone's first thought when seeing Falconia was about said city. It's not just a matter of building something on a specific spot.

This may be a mistranslation but I read Schierke saying in volume 24 while eating with Guts and co at Flora’s house that a human body that strongly feels ethereal beings will think of them as if they were real substance, enabling them to see and touch them. As knowledge of elves' existence kept passing to the world since ancient times, it enables people to see and touch them.

I may have read a wrong translation but this implies that it's possible for spirits to be intangible.

See what I already told you. Check out volume 17, Guts and Farnese riding out on the horse. The separation of the astral and corporeal worlds could not have solely been the result of the Holy See's doctrine.

Some people managed to survive the tower of conviction’s events by themselves, there may be different ways of repelling spirits. I don’t think there has been another world helix tree before, so the world merge was not necessarily as extreme. Rather things like troll attacks, as was in the village, and the rule of a cruel demon king.

I see, more groundless speculation. And you didn't answer my point. I'm not asking how could people survive, but who would they be, and how many would there be. More specifically, how could they possibly repopulate the entire world in such a short amount of time. As the people who survived during the Tower of Conviction's fall, they didn't do so through some occult spirit-repelling means. Some clung to Mozgus' fiery corpse, some hid... That's about it.

The Idea of Evil is not a human being, why would it have some sense of self preservation ?

It's a part of every human being, just as all of mankind is tied to it.

It has purpose and tries to accomplish it. When done it could as well vanish. If humanity once more wants a reason for their lives the Idea of Evil will be born anew. No need to keep surviving.

See what I explained to you above. The Idea of Evil provides "the reasons" by existing, so your reasoning here is nonsensical.

No. A little story, given time, can become a huge legend. Someone thought of irrigation ? Give it 300 years and there may be a story of some water wielding demigod that taught people how to do this.

It’s not that there was no empire or big city, only that it may be different from how the legend goes. I said that « there could have been a lot of misinformation in those legends », not that they were absolutely false. Was it not said that records of Gaiseric were erased ? Then what we know may be a deformation of the actual facts.

But we know Gaiseric and his city existed. Those were not exaggerated facts, and that's what I was talking about. You have no valid argument here, you're just arguing for the sake of it.

Maybe war is part of human nature. I don’t think we have heard of a time period in Berserk without war.

That's not my point. I'm talking about the unlikeliness of a great conqueror systematically arising and succeeding in uniting the land in a relatively short span of time.

Chuder tried to conquer Midland.

It's Tudor, not Chuder. Dark Horse messed up big time on that one.

And this may be why the Idea of Evil does not need to always influence directly events for them to unfold the way it wants. This is what I meant by stopping to influence them, not that it could not, only that the events were already happening how it wanted to, because it knows human nature and exploits it.

That makes no sense. First off, if something systematically happens it's more likely to be influenced than not to be. Order vs Chaos. As for what you meant, you're now saying the Idea of Evil remains in power but chooses not to influence events. But that the events happens the way it wants them to anyway because it knows human nature and exploits it? Knowing and exploiting human nature so that events happen like it wants them to sounds like influencing events to me.

Indirectly because the Idea of Evil did not incarnate like Zeus to conceive a child with a woman, nor dit it make in immaculate conception. It influenced people for him to be bred. This is indirect.

You're missing the point. I was asking why you specified he was indirectly created, as if it was a special occurrence, different from how the others were created.

The point is to finally succeed in the events unfolding the way needed for what the Idea of Evil wants to happen. The Idea of Evil learns and gets better every time, and Gaiseric’s life/actions could have taught it something about how to bring the perfect one the next time.

Well yeah, the Idea of Evil's goal is indeed to successfully achieve its goal... But that does not require a cyclic structure like the one you've proposed.

It depends on which events you refer to. I was talking about all that Gaiseric stuff, which is said in story to have happened a thousand years ago. Maybe you should have given it a long, hard look first.

I know what you're talking about, and I'm telling you it makes no sense as far as I'm concerned. Repeating my own words will not change that.

Because having an incarnation every millennium was part of the premise, and it implies previous occurrences. Part of the premise was likely false, and this is why I wanted to discuss the theory. To find out which parts.

It really doesn't seem to me that you wanted to discuss your theory, or to find out which parts are false. I've pointed out flaws in pretty much your entire theory, and you've just denied the truth everytime. You're actually saying it's irrelevant and unimportant to the story, characters and readers as a way to justify the fact nothing supports it in the manga... That's one of the biggest cases of denial I've seen on this forum.

It was only one supposition about what could happen after the end. I could make a different topic with dozens of different suppositions on this matter.

Making blind suppositions has no value in and of itself. What matters is speculating on things that are grounded in the story and are likely to come true.

I thought the Skull Knight called him this way because of the brand, but I think you’re right.

He called him that before he was branded.

This is how I used « must », and this is what I intended to describe.

I see. Well, that's not really a proper use of the word. The context of the sentence just doesn't lend itself to this meaning for it. Nevermind though, it doesn't matter.

I think you are right about the articles too, I accorded way too much importance to the « an » age of darkness. This distinction could not exist in Japanese (or not have been used in this particular Japanese sentence).

Indeed.

The four first members pave the way for the fifth to be exactly as the Idea of Evil wants it to be. Then it does its thing, as the Idea of Evil told Griffith to. It ends up failing.

And the other four aren't as the Idea of Evil wants them to be? Why? From what we know, each member of the God Hand has his or her importance. Their roles are different but complementary.

Why did Griffith take this « Falcon » persona ? Could he not have been inspired by the bird imagery of the Holy See church that announced the coming of a Falcon of Light ?

Nothing in the story leads us to believe that was his inspiration.

Well, to conclude I will say that I don’t consider that the God Hand is the first one, or that they are the second after the previous one (mentioned in Gaiseric’s legend) because that would make the Idea of Evil and use of beherits very recent, and it would be lame to me.

The Idea of Evil could be eons old and still have only been able to create members of the God Hand relatively recently. It could have taken it a long time to shape the world in a way that made it possible. As you said yourself, it's good to keep one's mind open to possibilities.

I prefer to think of it as the embodiment of a part of human nature, hence being almost as old as humanity.

You're missing out on an important thing, though. The Idea of Evil is a sentient being, but what it represents may have existed for a long time before it acquired that sentience.

And to wrap this up I will point out that this is not my only theory about the Berserk universe. This is one I wanted to share and discuss. This is not « how the Berserk world works to me ». Only « one of the ways I envision the world working ». So there's no need for things like "don't you think X makes more sense?". Yes, I most likely do, and this is most likely part of another theory of mine.

Sorry, but that's just too easy of a way out. I don't care about some other theories you didn't talk about, I only care about what you're posting on the forum. If you don't believe in a theory, then don't waste other people's time with it, plain and simple. And don't shirk responsability by saying that you "most likely" agree something is wrong, but you won't outright admit it for some unknown reason. The expectation here is that people post the best ideas they have, not that they'll defend things they don't really believe in regardless of the points brought up against them.

Alright, once again thank you for your answer. You have taken the time to read me and extensively answer to what I wrote. This is something a appreciate a lot.
This reply has taken some time, this half of the week has been busy and I have taken my time to try to make this a worthwhile read, even if my ideas can be ridiculous to you :serpico:

You're welcome, but I really wish you would be more forthcoming when talking about what you actually believe is most likely, instead of seemingly arguing for the sake of it. It does not motivate me to reply to you, and as you might have guessed, I'm a very busy man myself.

But there is clearly a cylical nature of fate that the god hand relies on, in order to advance their "goals."

Please elaborate on what the "clearly cyclical nature of fate" is that the God Hand relies on to advance its goals. It's not readily apparent to me. Aside from that, you're replying to something outside of its context, which is Kraden's theory.

We know there was a similar event to the eclipse that leveled an area, that we learn of even before the first eclipse occurs.

If you're talking about Gaiseric's tale, you're really not bringing anything to the table.

I always thought that was probably another member of the god hand coming into existence, not a reoccurring fifth one.

I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about.

But there isn't anything about a cylical process that would be in opposition to what the god hand wanted.

Unless you assume that the world resetting in some way is somehow a failure on their part.

When we don't really know what there exact goal is except to come into the world, i don't know how it could be a failure, when it seems like just something that gradually over time they have been getting closer to their goal.

Like I told Kraden, there is absolutely nothing in the story hinting at any such thing. That the God Hand has been getting closer to its goal is completely obvious, but it doesn't necessitate a cycle like what Kraden proposed. Anyway, aside from repeating what's already been said in the thread, you're also contradicting yourself. If their goal is to come into the world (the corporeal world I'm assuming), then "resetting" the world is a failure in and of itself, since they're not in the world anymore afterwards. But of course, we know that this isn't their goal (merely a step), so this is wrong to begin with.

It could have taken so many cycles for them to reach where they are at in whatever over arching agenda they have to be completed.

If the God Hand is purged at the end of each cycle, then they hardly have an overarching agenda, it's the Idea of Evil who does. But, again, you speak of things that "could" be without having any solid ground for them.

They call for the emperor to heed his apostle nature and bow to griffith and he resists, but they use the events that occured specificially because of his rebellion as if it were predetermined that he would do so.

Then it's hardly a failure, if it was all arranged to happen that way.

The mysterious way in which the god hand works seems to suggest, that you can't rule out what they do as a failure because it appear to be.

Complete annihilation and return to a God Hand-less state seems to rule out a victory for the members of the God Hand.

Offline The Ruffled Swordsman

Re: Causality and destiny, the Berserk world follows a cyclic pattern
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2015, 05:29:55 AM »


Please elaborate on what the "clearly cyclical nature of fate" is that the God Hand relies on to advance its goals. It's not readily apparent to me. Aside from that, you're replying to something outside of its context, which is Kraden's theory.

If you're talking about Gaiseric's tale, you're really not bringing anything to the table.

I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about.

Like I told Kraden, there is absolutely nothing in the story hinting at any such thing. That the God Hand has been getting closer to its goal is completely obvious, but it doesn't necessitate a cycle like what Kraden proposed. Anyway, aside from repeating what's already been said in the thread, you're also contradicting yourself. If their goal is to come into the world (the corporeal world I'm assuming), then "resetting" the world is a failure in and of itself, since they're not in the world anymore afterwards. But of course, we know that this isn't their goal (merely a step), so this is wrong to begin with.

If the God Hand is purged at the end of each cycle, then they hardly have an overarching agenda, it's the Idea of Evil who does. But, again, you speak of things that "could" be without having any solid ground for them.

Then it's hardly a failure, if it was all arranged to happen that way.

Complete annihilation and return to a God Hand-less state seems to rule out a victory for the members of the God Hand.

the god hand counts on a repeated fate or a reoccuring situation, to have to occur for an apostle to enter the world or for fempto to be made.

The fact that there was a similar eclipse like even is also a reoocuring fate.

The parrallels between the first elclipse itself were pretty much seem like another cycle of the same exact thing.

To clarify these cycles have enough to suggest that they are completing the god hand, and that new members are brought in through them.

And much of what guts and skull knight talk about suggests, skull knight has lived what guts is going through before. 

It seems like there plenty of events that come around that the god hand hopes to have align a specific way, and that the skull knight waits to make sure they don't align that way.

It's not suggesting a cycle if you think its gonna reset to zero, but if you think there is some over arching thing that happens while human history seems to reset itself, and lead up to some kind of situation that seems to give some kind of condition that the god hand wants, then the fact that we know that they've been at this a long time, and there was an era that was a direct parrallel to what happened with griffith suggests that there are cylces within the berserk universe.

It doesn't suggest that the god hand would want everything to reset to zero.  But you were actually the one that argued it would have to mean that if there were cycles at play, and would thusly make them incompetent.

However the god hand clearly could want to set everything to a kind of zero.  Given that Void probably represents an affinity towards...i don't know the void.

i don't think there attempting to undo themselves, but there finding away in during a specific occasion that they needed, and we know that an kind of eclipse has happened before.

We don't know what came out of that eclipse, but it they could have failed or they could have succeeded

if they did succeed then what was the success of that eclipse, another god hand member.  If they did fail did they have to wait again for griffith, for the cylcle to repeat itself so they could try again.

Either way.


I don't think the god hand has to be purged, once again, one of the parts of his theory that makes sense is the cylical nature of the way the god hand works.

I'm glad to see how you can see that apparent failure, isn't always failure when it comes to the god hand, now maybe understanding what cannot be explained as one giant arrangment by the god hand, without pieces of it failing, and then turning out to be advantageous for them as time goes on, would lead one to understand, how you wouldn't know why the whole world resetting would or wouldn't be advantageous for them.

Or even what is or isn't arranged.  You don't even know if they are on the same page with one another.  But you do know that they have one mechanism of the brand that is designed to do one thing, that is prophezized to do one thing.

And that mechanism has to fail on a nightly basis, in order for the rest of that causality to happen.

You know that guts sword is specifically powerful because of how many times he has overcome that arrangment and has gained spirtual power because of it.

You don't really know exactly whats up until the end game.

and you don't know how failures are turned into successes, or which parts of our reality the god hand are merely going through the motions with.

it's not clear that they wanted Ganishka to rebel, because they arranged for him to feel the call to griffith from the very beginning and yet the way his rebellion turned out fit perfectly into their burgeoning designs.

it's supposed to be enigmatic, and they clearly see outside the boundaries of the way we have to see reality, they don't have the same chains.  And don't even come from the same plane.

In fact if you listen to what Void says, its not clear he even concieves of what's happening as a scheme, but as a fate.  Clearly they have designs, but to think that it's the kind of plan, that works like practical set up is missing the point.

Its more like the cosmos or the universe works this way.  To which other points of view disagree.  But he offers one that suggests this is the fabric of the universe that they are dealing with.

And you have to admit its something that the world is allowing, and even seems to be prepared for.

The god hand manipulates things, for sure, but there manipulation includes turning any small victory into success.

But you in any intuitive was can't explain the god hands motives or machinations in terms of what would make sense or what you would think would make sense.

Their manipulations cannot be explained without tides turning back and forth, with them being able to seemingly see how those tides will turn or assurances that in the end its going to end up going that way, that its fate.

In fact the idea that its their will, is completly counter to void's anti will conception of everything.  In fact to even become an apostle or in griffith's case a god hand, your will has to break.

So we wouldn't really know why the god hand would strive for their own anihaltion and the return to zero, but then again they aren't necessarily pro striving.




Offline Aazealh

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Re: Causality and destiny, the Berserk world follows a cyclic pattern
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2015, 11:46:19 AM »
the god hand counts on a repeated fate or a reoccuring situation, to have to occur for an apostle to enter the world or for fempto to be made.

Why? How? I'm sorry but you can't just make these claims without backing them up. What reoccurring situation was necessary for Rochine to become an apostle?

Also, this is unrelated but please make an effort with your spelling man, at least for the characters' names. "Femto" is written without a 'p'...

The fact that there was a similar eclipse like even is also a reoocuring fate.

I'm still not sure what you're talking about here. I'd assume you meant the mirror occultation that happened at the Tower of Conviction, but since you mentioned it happening earlier in your previous post...

The parrallels between the first elclipse itself were pretty much seem like another cycle of the same exact thing.

To clarify these cycles have enough to suggest that they are completing the god hand, and that new members are brought in through them.

...Are you just saying that Occultation ceremonies reoccur every 216 years and that each of them marks the birth of a member of the God Hand? Because... well, duh. That's not at all what the point is here. Kraden's theory is about a master cycle that invisibly englobes everything you're talking about here.

And much of what guts and skull knight talk about suggests, skull knight has lived what guts is going through before.

Again, this is completely besides the point. It seems you don't understand what this thread is about.

It seems like there plenty of events that come around that the god hand hopes to have align a specific way, and that the skull knight waits to make sure they don't align that way.

"Plenty" might be an exaggeration (we haven't seen the Skull Knight intervene that many times), but yeah, the God Hand wants things to happen in order to achieve its goals and the Skull Knight tries to thwart them. You're just stating the obvious.

It's not suggesting a cycle if you think its gonna reset to zero, but if you think there is some over arching thing that happens while human history seems to reset itself, and lead up to some kind of situation that seems to give some kind of condition that the god hand wants, then the fact that we know that they've been at this a long time, and there was an era that was a direct parrallel to what happened with griffith suggests that there are cylces within the berserk universe.

What overarching thing? What situation? What condition? Your entire proposition rests on completely undefined "what ifs". You also speak of cycles and resetting while seemingly just extrapolating a system from a single occurrence. Furthermore, the parallel you speak of is more akin to emulation to me than it is to a natural recurring cycle. Events in the past are recreated with a twist to achieve a specific purpose. This isn't much of a basis for establishing that there is a long cycle at play.

But besides all that, Kraden's cycle theory goes beyond this, as it englobes all of those events into one big cycle. So, again, you're missing the point.

It doesn't suggest that the god hand would want everything to reset to zero.  But you were actually the one that argued it would have to mean that if there were cycles at play, and would thusly make them incompetent.

It's the Idea of Evil that would plan things on this level, not the God Hand. And it's Kraden's theory that stipulates that the God Hand disappears periodically (in order for the super-cycle to repeat itself), the world reverting to an earlier state. So yeah, that would, as far as I'm concerned, reflect poorly on their competence. I get the feeling your entire post is based on a misconception of what the topic of this thread is.

However the god hand clearly could want to set everything to a kind of zero.  Given that Void probably represents an affinity towards...i don't know the void.

You said just above that the God Hand wouldn't want to reset everything to zero, and now you're saying the complete opposite. Seemingly just to make a pun on Void's name? Either way, you say it's "clear" the God Hand would want to do that, but there is no proof of it. It's not clear at all as far as I'm concerned, it's groundless speculation on your part.

i don't think there attempting to undo themselves, but there finding away in during a specific occasion that they needed, and we know that an kind of eclipse has happened before.

This makes no sense... You need to clarify your thoughts before posting them.

We don't know what came out of that eclipse, but it they could have failed or they could have succeeded

How insightful.

if they did succeed then what was the success of that eclipse, another god hand member.  If they did fail did they have to wait again for griffith, for the cylcle to repeat itself so they could try again.

Same as above, you're missing the point of Kraden's theory. The fact Eclipses occur every 216 years is not the issue here.

I don't think the god hand has to be purged, once again, one of the parts of his theory that makes sense is the cylical nature of the way the god hand works.

His theory specifies the God Hand has to be purged, which goes directly against what you're saying here. As Kraden said, there can't be more than five members of the God Hand at once.

I'm glad to see how you can see that apparent failure, isn't always failure when it comes to the god hand, now maybe understanding what cannot be explained as one giant arrangment by the god hand, without pieces of it failing, and then turning out to be advantageous for them as time goes on, would lead one to understand, how you wouldn't know why the whole world resetting would or wouldn't be advantageous for them.

Little man, do not presume to transpose your own flawed comprehension of the series onto others. Half of your post is gibberish, and what isn't completely misses the point of the thread. As for resetting the world, given that in Kraden's theory it necessitates that the God Hand cease to exist, it is, by definition, not advantageous to them. Advantageous to the Idea of Evil, maybe, but not to them. Unless you're saying nonexistence is an advantage, in which case I'd ask you to explain how.

Or even what is or isn't arranged. You don't even know if they are on the same page with one another.

This is utterly irrelevant, and we do in fact know enough about them to posit how their relationship works. Namely, that they each have their own goals and interests, but are still working together to achieve a common objective.

But you do know that they have one mechanism of the brand that is designed to do one thing, that is prophezized to do one thing.

Prophecized to do one thing? What?

And that mechanism has to fail on a nightly basis, in order for the rest of that causality to happen.

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about, but I suspect you're misunderstanding what the Brand does and how it works.

You know that guts sword is specifically powerful because of how many times he has overcome that arrangment and has gained spirtual power because of it.

That's an awfully complicated way to say the Dragon Slayer was imbued by the countless evil spirits Guts has been fighting against all those years.

You don't really know exactly whats up until the end game.

What a pertinent remark! Why indeed, no one knows how the story will end!

and you don't know how failures are turned into successes, or which parts of our reality the god hand are merely going through the motions with.

This is entirely speculative talk that bears zero relevance to the topic at hands (the super cycles). Beyond that, you speak of failures and successes as if those were clearly defined when they definitely aren't. Missing in the process that some of what you'd consider a "success" (Femto's incarnation) might also pave the way for future "failure" (because of the Moonlight Boy). But this is beyond the scope of the thread.

it's not clear that they wanted Ganishka to rebel, because they arranged for him to feel the call to griffith from the very beginning and yet the way his rebellion turned out fit perfectly into their burgeoning designs.

I think it is quite clear, on the contrary. I think the events with Ganishka were foreordained and were always meant to turn out the way they did. Everything that happened was a part of the big plan to merge the worlds together.

it's supposed to be enigmatic, and they clearly see outside the boundaries of the way we have to see reality, they don't have the same chains.  And don't even come from the same plane.

Nothing new, and it doesn't bring anything to the table here. Oh and I don't think speaking of "planes" is really proper here. We speak of worlds, usually.

In fact if you listen to what Void says, its not clear he even concieves of what's happening as a scheme, but as a fate.  Clearly they have designs, but to think that it's the kind of plan, that works like practical set up is missing the point.

So far you seem to be the one missing the point here. Including when it comes to what Void says and what it relates to.

But he offers one that suggests this is the fabric of the universe that they are dealing with.

Not sure who "he" is, but the Idea of Evil and the God Hand primarily deal in human matters. Saying they touch on the very fabric of the universe is going too far given what we know about them (especially in relation to the elemental powers we know of in the Berserk world).

The god hand manipulates things, for sure, but there manipulation includes turning any small victory into success.

As opposed to victories not being successes?

But you in any intuitive was can't explain the god hands motives or machinations in terms of what would make sense or what you would think would make sense.

I can tell you what doesn't make sense: the above sentence.

Their manipulations cannot be explained without tides turning back and forth, with them being able to seemingly see how those tides will turn or assurances that in the end its going to end up going that way, that its fate.

I would be wary of giving the God Hand an equal amount of influence to that of the Idea of Evil. Also, I think their machinations can be explained straightforwardly, regardless of the fact they have a specific insight into the way the world works. Not sure how "tides" factor into this. Anyway, as stated several times now, this has no bearing on Kraden's theory.

In fact the idea that its their will, is completly counter to void's anti will conception of everything.  In fact to even become an apostle or in griffith's case a god hand, your will has to break.

Lol, "do as you wish" is contrary to the way the God Hand and apostles work? Reeeeeally? You sure of that? Sounds like you ought to re-read the series. Although in the wider debate, the Idea of Evil's influence compared to their creed is an interesting question. That is, however, quite besides the point here.

So we wouldn't really know why the god hand would strive for their own anihaltion and the return to zero, but then again they aren't necessarily pro striving.

Well thank you for this fascinating analysis, The Ruffled Swordsman. It certainly was very enlightening.