Author Topic: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?  (Read 4497 times)

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Offline Walter

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Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« on: March 03, 2015, 07:32:20 PM »
We've seen a range of pseudo-apostle transformations in the past, from Zondark's almost rape-like endowment of evil by the Count to the Beherit-Apostle's subtle appendage (missed even by some readers!), and perhaps most monstrous of all, Rochine forcing this state upon children. In each case, the individuals are empowered with inhuman strength and abilities, and put under some form of control or authority by the apostle -- the full extent of which has never been explored.

With the exception of Mozgus, these endowments have been portrayed as unwilling attacks by apostles. But after apostles "unleashed their evil" on the front lines outside Wyndham, and humans came to accept these monsters as comrades, I think Miura created an opening for a shift in the nature of this exchange of power.

We know that both humans and apostles are engaged in keeping the magical creatures outside Falconia's walls in check. So, I can envision a scenario where apostles offer humans the chance to become "empowered" in an effort to create more effective enforcers for patrol. Given the current state of apostle-human relations, this seems to me to be plausible to me. It could even become an institutionalized effort within the city. Falconia needs YOU! Swallow this appendage TODAY!

Furthermore, I keep wondering if Miura will take the apostle-human relations bit to its natural next evolution... apostle-human love  :daiba:
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Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2015, 09:23:31 PM »
What a fresh topic! What an interesting turn this would be. I think most reader view the humans in Falconia as naive innocents, sheep guarded by wolves. So much so that if Guts were to stroll in, we'd feel bad about him hacking apart some misguided human soldiers in the Neo-Hawks. But if this Pseudo Apostle recruitment were to take place, that dynamic changes quite a bit.  It could also be really tragic, such as if we found that Raban or Owen had done it.

I'm not sure if it will happen, but the ground work is certainly laid. It would certainly bolster Griffiths ranks as well. I can't see him handing out Beherits in Falconia anytime soon. The whole sacrifice your loved ones aspect would be bad PR (I wonder if new Apostles are even possible with the God Hand potentially incarnated.) The Pseudo Apostle thing has no strings attached though. It's a free power up!   

Offline Walter

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Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2015, 10:59:33 PM »
I wonder if new Apostles are even possible with the God Hand potentially incarnated.)

My money is on no. But we just don't know.

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The Pseudo Apostle thing has no strings attached though. It's a free power up!   

They're bound for the vortex of souls though, and seem to be somewhat mind controlled, or at least tied to the whims of the apostle.
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Offline Grail

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Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2015, 11:35:21 PM »
Some very cool food for thought, Wally! Thank you for sharing.

While I always find it tricky to speculate about Falconia, a scenario like that could be a game-changer in terms of our understanding of pseudo-apostles. It could bring up a lot of questions, to start! For instance, what qualities do all pseudo-apostles share, or do they vary as widely as regular apostles? If the condition were applied in an official sense, like what you’re suggesting re: beefing up the guard, would they have to undergo special sensitivity training to be certified human friendly? Does Falconia’s administration even have an HR department?! :ganishka: Based on what we know, the nature of the pseudo-apostle appears to depend on the intent of the apostle administering the “special sauce” ( :magni: ) so I wonder how that would be regulated. The nature of the person being changed could be a factor as well.

What might be the effects of long-term pseudo-apostlehood? In the series, pseudo-apostles are typically bound to perform a specific task, whether it was to go off and fight, or protect something important to the apostle who “created” them. The longest living pseudo-apostles that I can think of are Rochine’s guards (the former knights), unless I’m missing someone? So with that in mind, I wonder if a pseudo-apostle can even live a life that would appear normal by human standards, or would they be completely bound to their “creator?"

To continue on that train of thought, Miura’s storytelling has consistently focused on the theme of sacrifice, particularly in the case of gaining a supernatural advantage. As you and ApostleBob already sort of covered, if humans are willing to possibly give up their human identity and even their free will to whatever extent, what would they be standing to gain, besides a guaranteed spot in the Vortex of Souls? Of course, the humans volunteering might not be informed about any of the fine print, so who knows. :slan:

Furthermore, I keep wondering if Miura will take the apostle-human relations bit to its natural next evolution... apostle-human love  :daiba:
Irvine and Sonia, sittin’ in a tree... :casca: (Sorry Mule!)

Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 02:10:23 PM »
Very cool topic Walter.

Irvine and Sonia, sittin’ in a tree... :casca: (Sorry Mule!)

That was the first thing that came to mind, but Irvine might have to wait. Sonia's young!

:ganishka: Based on what we know, the nature of the pseudo-apostle appears to depend on the intent of the apostle administering the “special sauce” ( :magni: ) so I wonder how that would be regulated. The nature of the person being changed could be a factor as well.

What might be the effects of long-term pseudo-apostlehood? In the series, pseudo-apostles are typically bound to perform a specific task, whether it was to go off and fight, or protect something important to the apostle who “created” them. The longest living pseudo-apostles that I can think of are Rochine’s guards (the former knights), unless I’m missing someone? So with that in mind, I wonder if a pseudo-apostle can even live a life that would appear normal by human standards, or would they be completely bound to their “creator?"

Really good questions. From what we see in Rochine's guards are that based on the kind of person they originally were, it factored in how strong they'd be. So not every pseudo-apostle has the same amount of strength or skill like those former knights engaged in intelligent attacks and were insects no doubt, but of a higher caliber. In the event they're sort of 'hiring' pseudo-apostles (use the word hiring as a joke), it'll be interesting to see if there'll be a focused selection at the back of their mind or they'd let just about anyone in.

The dynamic of the fear around apostles has definitely changed in Falconia. I think it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to find some humans wanting in on a bigger power to gain strength or be sort of invincible in battle. So we might get to see recruits coming in of their own free will versus Rochine's guards for example.
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Offline Walter

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Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2015, 01:19:56 PM »
For instance, what qualities do all pseudo-apostles share, or do they vary as widely as regular apostles?

The properties for the pseudo-apostles seem to be directly related to the apostle they're transformed by. The specifics of their powers vary wildly. As for similarities, it's hard to set rules since they're all quite different. But except for those changed  by the Beherit-apostle, all other pseudo-apostles seem to be bound to the whims of the apostle.

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If the condition were applied in an official sense, like what you’re suggesting re: beefing up the guard, would they have to undergo special sensitivity training to be certified human friendly? Does Falconia’s administration even have an HR department?! :ganishka:

Hehehe, well we're being QUITE speculative at this point, but I'll offer that if this were to happen, then maybe the pseudo-apostles wouldn't return to their human lives, but join in with other apostles on their side of Falconia.

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I wonder if a pseudo-apostle can even live a life that would appear normal by human standards, or would they be completely bound to their “creator?"

Yeah, it's a good question. My guess is it wouldn't be much of a life. But Miura has turned the tables on our expectations of apostles behaviors in the past so...

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what would they be standing to gain, besides a guaranteed spot in the Vortex of Souls? Of course, the humans volunteering might not be informed about any of the fine print, so who knows. :slan:

They'd be gaining enhanced strength. And I envisioned these would be soldiers -- those already on the front lines of combat, not just average citizens. So they'd probably welcome the opportunity to not die so easily out there on the frontier.

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Irvine and Sonia, sittin’ in a tree... :casca: (Sorry Mule!)

Given his barbed attacks, I wouldn't wish such a fate on poor Sonia  :sad:
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Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2015, 07:43:59 PM »
Yeah, it's a good question. My guess is it wouldn't be much of a life. But Miura has turned the tables on our expectations of apostles behaviors in the past so...

They'd be gaining enhanced strength. And I envisioned these would be soldiers -- those already on the front lines of combat, not just average citizens. So they'd probably welcome the opportunity to not die so easily out there on the frontier.

This prediction actually makes a lot of sense for this new merged world and would integrate the Apostles and the Humans even more. Plus it blurs the lines even more between who's a "bad guy." The apostles were at the eclipse, they each sacrificed, and they're brutal monsters in general that eat people (for some reason). But Pseudo-Apostles have none of that baggage.  It might be a father who wanted to better protect his family and community. 

Given his barbed attacks, I wouldn't wish such a fate on poor Sonia  :sad:

Ewwww

Offline IronBerserk

Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2015, 07:55:24 PM »
The properties for the pseudo-apostles seem to be directly related to the apostle they're transformed by. The specifics of their powers vary wildly. As for similarities, it's hard to set rules since they're all quite different. But except for those changed  by the Beherit-apostle, all other pseudo-apostles seem to be bound to the whims of the apostle.

Considering that Griffith was reborn into the world by the Beherit-apostle, I would assume that his pseudo-apostle giving powers (if he has any?) would involve the same concept. Unfortunately, their isn't any way to know if a pseudo-apostle could survive without its master. Guts, in all his awesomeness, tended to kill everything in his path, killing the pseudo's first then the apostle :guts:

If I remember correctly, Zondark had the seed/daemon of the count within him. If I had to guess, I don't think the daemon could survive the death of the Count considering it was a part of him. But that's just one pseudo example. Maybe the others work differently?

Offline Walter

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Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2015, 08:00:08 PM »
Considering that Griffith was reborn into the world by the Beherit-apostle, I would assume that his pseudo-apostle giving powers (if he has any?) would involve the same concept.

I think that's a misguided assumption. Griffith is a higher being. He's unlike anything else in the series. So he's certainly not beholden to the Beherit-Apostle's way of doing things. He was merely a shell that helped bring Femto to the world.

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If I remember correctly, Zondark had the seed/daemon of the count within him. If I had to guess, I don't think the daemon could survive the death of the Count considering it was a part of him. But that's just one pseudo example. Maybe the others work differently?

I don't think the word "daemon" can be found anywhere in the series. But I tend to agree in terms of their survivability after the host dies.
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Offline IronBerserk

Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2015, 08:07:59 PM »
I don't think the word "daemon" can be found anywhere in the series. But I tend to agree in terms of their survivability after the host dies.

It was used in the DarkHorse version :P Whether its a good translation or not is definitely something that could be debated.

Offline Walter

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Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2015, 08:08:59 PM »
It was used in the DarkHorse version :P Whether its a good translation or not is definitely something that could be debated.

Since we have people on the forum that actually speak Japanese, I think that would be a pretty one-sided debate. Dark Horse has been wrong numerous times in the past, often to an embarrassing degree.
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Offline IronBerserk

Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 08:10:50 PM »
Since we have people on the forum that actually speak Japanese, I think that would be a pretty one-sided debate. Dark Horse has been wrong numerous times in the past, often to an embarrassing degree.

Yeah I know, that's why I left that open. I definitely ain't Japanese and darkhorse is notorious for its mistranslations  :iva:

Offline Walter

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Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2015, 08:31:52 PM »
Yeah I know, that's why I left that open. I definitely ain't Japanese and darkhorse is notorious for its mistranslations  :iva:

Daemon was something Dark Horse made up. The word used by the Count in that scene is more akin to "a part of me." (parturition; delivery; one's child; branch; offshoot; one's other self).

There's no official word for the spawn of Apostles, but we've tended to call them Pseudo Apostles, and eventually, Dark Horse caught on to this as well.
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Offline IronBerserk

Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2015, 06:59:09 PM »
I think that's a misguided assumption. Griffith is a higher being. He's unlike anything else in the series. So he's certainly not beholden to the Beherit-Apostle's way of doing things. He was merely a shell that helped bring Femto to the world.

Well I didn't say Femto's pseudo's would work EXACTLY like the Beherit-Apostles pseudo's, only in a same concept kind of way. But actually I think you guys a forgetting a little fact. Femto already created a pseudo before our eyes. Guts and Casca's baby. He was infected by his seed, yet he still retained his need and will to protect his parents with his powers. Does this mean that the seed of Femto creates pseudo's that retain their freewill? Possible...what you guys think?

Daemon was something Dark Horse made up. The word used by the Count in that scene is more akin to "a part of me." (parturition; delivery; one's child; branch; offshoot; one's other self).

There's no official word for the spawn of Apostles, but we've tended to call them Pseudo Apostles, and eventually, Dark Horse caught on to this as well.

huh interesting. Well then we can almost clearly say that "a part of me" would result in the pseudo dying if the host is killed. If I remember correctly, the Japanese language is very simple and used along with a persons body language in order to distinguish precisely what they are saying. The Count's pseudo looked to be a part of his body and along with the language of "a part of me" I would think it would die off along with him. Same for Rochine's pseudo's, they would die along with their queen...like a Bee hive!...but in bee hives if the queen dies they create an emergency queen to replace the old one...ok never mind, it ain't exactly like a Bee Hive. But WAIT, what if some of Rochine's pseudo's survived and created an emergency Rochine! She could STILL BE ALIVE! :magni:

Offline Walter

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Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2015, 07:14:14 PM »
I think you guys a forgetting a little fact. Femto already created a pseudo before our eyes. Guts and Casca's baby. He was infected by his seed, yet he still retained his need and will to protect his parents with his powers. Does this mean that the seed of Femto creates pseudo's that retain their freewill? Possible...what you guys think?

I don't think the Demon Child resembles or acts anything like a psuedo-apostle.
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Offline IronBerserk

Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2015, 07:29:31 PM »
I don't think the Demon Child resembles or acts anything like a psuedo-apostle.

Yeah, but weren't we talking about how the rules tend to change when it comes to pseudo's? Femto is a Godhand, therefore his pseudo would be more complex and probably more powerful. The Demon Child is an infected fetus who turned pseudo when Femto's seed mixed with his development stage. Or at least I think that's how it went? Seems logical and seems in line with how the other pseudo's were created. Their natural being and DNA was changed through infection.

Offline Walter

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Re: Willing Pseudo-Apostles in Falconia?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2015, 08:38:24 PM »
Yeah, but weren't we talking about how the rules tend to change when it comes to pseudo's? Femto is a Godhand, therefore his pseudo would be more complex and probably more powerful. The Demon Child is an infected fetus who turned pseudo when Femto's seed mixed with his development stage. Or at least I think that's how it went? Seems logical and seems in line with how the other pseudo's were created. Their natural being and DNA was changed through infection.

This is beyond the scope of this thread. You're welcome to make a new one on it, if you'd like.

But honestly, this all sounds extremely farfetched to me. What we know of the child's tainting by Femto is contained in one speech bubble from the Skull Knight. I think that's rather thin to go off and say it's "a fact" that the Demon Child is related to Femto like apostle-spawn are related to their apostles, particularly because it bears none of the properties of apostle-spawn we've seen heretofore.
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