Author Topic: Has the Holy See been sweeping magic users away for the God Hand?  (Read 1769 times)

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Offline ApostleBob

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I had a thought based on a recent re-read.

We know that Griffithís forces attacked Flora pre-preemptively most likely because she represented a threat to the God Handís plans, if not themselves.

Also in Enoch village we learn that the Holy See has been building churches on former magic shrines for nature spirits and other magical totems to replace them. As a result, many humans have forgotten about magic and canít see spirits or elves until very recently.

Also thoughout the Conviction Arc weíve seen the Holy Sees inquisition attempting to root out witches and other Heretic types. At first I thought this was just basic medieval superstition and religious persecution, but it got me thinking that maybe thereís a bit more to it.

The Holy See is after all a religious organization with roots in the God hand as evidenced by its many icons including Hawks, Angels, Beherits and the double helix similar to the brand and the Idea of Evil, as well as its prophesies. 

Could it be that the God hand has systematically influenced the churches doctrine to seek out magic users and persecute them expressly to pave the way for an incarnation of one of their members? Iím not saying the church is aware that they are doing it for this reason, but have been influenced by causality to do their dirty work. Thoughts?

Offline Kindan

Re: Has the Holy See been sweeping magic users away for the God Hand?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2015, 10:19:27 AM »
Hm, that's really interesting, and certainly seems possible. Maybe that's part of the reason Griffith has kept the Pope so close, perhaps the Holy See has some further usefulness to him besides the whole coronation and marriage thing. In that the God hand planted certain seeds that they could use to their advantage in the future, could be some obscure religious law or something more 'mystical' somehow.
"Justice is a delusion you will not find on this or any other sphere. And wisdom? Wisdom is no part of dreams, lithe walker, though dreams are a part of the sum of each life's experiences, which is the only wisdom that matters. But revelation? That is the province of dream."

Offline Walter

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Re: Has the Holy See been sweeping magic users away for the God Hand?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2015, 04:16:01 PM »
The Holy See is after all a religious organization with roots in the God hand as evidenced by its many icons including Hawks, Angels, Beherits and the double helix similar to the brand and the Idea of Evil, as well as its prophesies. 

I can't recall any iconography from the Holy See's religion resembling a Beherit. But otherwise, there are of course similarities between the Holy See's helix and the brand (visual example here if anyone is curious). The double helix also of course now has come to represent the World Spiral tree, and we saw the double helix in the Idea of Evil's design in Episode 83.

Quote
Could it be that the God hand has systematically influenced the churches doctrine to seek out magic users and persecute them expressly to pave the way for an incarnation of one of their members? Iím not saying the church is aware that they are doing it for this reason, but have been influenced by causality to do their dirty work. Thoughts?

Yes. Religion is a powerful force in the world. So along with manipulating everyone in the world, religion was also brought into the mix. It was clearly done without the leaders' knowledge though. Without them knowing so, they were weakening humanity.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Has the Holy See been sweeping magic users away for the God Hand?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2015, 04:38:01 PM »
I can't recall any iconography from the Holy See's religion resembling a Beherit. But otherwise, there are of course similarities between the Holy See's helix and the brand (visual example here if anyone is curious). The double helix also of course now has come to represent the World Spiral tree, and we saw the double helix in the Idea of Evil's design in Episode 83.

The beherit stems from the base of the hawk icon. Usually it's the shape of a ball or an egg, but here (http://imgur.com/PGPbiGt) and in the encounter with the Beherit Apostle (http://imgur.com/vcqtJO1) seem to indicate that it's origin is a beherit, just like the top is a Hawk.

Yes. Religion is a powerful force in the world. So along with manipulating everyone in the world, religion was also brought into the mix. It was clearly done without the leaders' knowledge though. Without them knowing so, they were weakening humanity.

It opens up the question of whether the residents of elf Island were driven there due to religious persecution.

Offline Walter

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Re: Has the Holy See been sweeping magic users away for the God Hand?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2015, 04:50:31 PM »
The beherit stems from the base of the hawk icon. Usually it's the shape of a ball or an egg, but here (http://imgur.com/PGPbiGt) and in the encounter with the Beherit Apostle (http://imgur.com/vcqtJO1) seem to indicate that it's origin is a beherit, just like the top is a Hawk.

In official iconography, it's just a circle or orb. Neither of these instances are official things. If you're saying that's Miura clueing us in on that being what the orb represents, then alright I guess? But he tends to play with those symbols a lot. See the first page in Volume 9.

Personally, I think the presence of the double-helix imagery is a symbol for how the human race has been manipulated down to their very essence as a part of Causality. Of course, that's problematic with the removal of that line in Episode 83.

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It opens up the question of whether the residents of elf Island were driven there due to religious persecution.

Not all of them, I'd wager. But yes, I think that was implied by what Flora says in Vol 24.
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Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Has the Holy See been sweeping magic users away for the God Hand?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 08:41:08 PM »
In official iconography, it's just a circle or orb. Neither of these instances are official things. If you're saying that's Miura clueing us in on that being what the orb represents, then alright I guess? But he tends to play with those symbols a lot. See the first page in Volume 9.

Yeah, I'm pretty much taking it as Miura letting the reader in on what the iconography represents. I know he's played around with abstract imagery before, but this feels a bit more deliberate, and has been repeated. It's certainly not set in stone though.