Author Topic: Casca's love for Guts  (Read 14886 times)

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Offline Theozilla

Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2015, 10:24:16 PM »
Alright, although I must say, I don't think a thread devoted to discussing how Casca has shown her love for Guts in the story was the best place for it.

Eh, I saw Vixen Comics bring up the issues from Volume 23, so I thought it might be an appropriate spot to broach the subject and voice some of my anxieties/thoughts, but in retrospect you're probably right.

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2016, 08:57:58 PM »
I wouldn't say its love as much as Casca's need to depend on others. If you think about it, her life should have ended when that pedo noble picked her up, instead she got rescued by Griffith and ultimately became obsessed with him, literally her whole life was Griffith, that's why she gives up and drops down the waterfall after Guts' return.

Afterwards, the role is picked up by Guts, who becomes her pillar of support number two. I think, even though Casca is potrayed as a bitter tomboy soldier, on the inside, she's still a soft woman, taught to depend on men ( how people used to think in medieavel ages ).

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2016, 09:17:02 PM »
I wouldn't say its love as much as Casca's need to depend on others.

Well then you'd be wrong, because what Casca felt for Guts before she lost her mind was definitely love.

If you think about it, her life should have ended when that pedo noble picked her up, instead she got rescued by Griffith and ultimately became obsessed with him, literally her whole life was Griffith, that's why she gives up and drops down the waterfall after Guts' return.

Afterwards, the role is picked up by Guts, who becomes her pillar of support number two. I think, even though Casca is potrayed as a bitter tomboy soldier, on the inside, she's still a soft woman, taught to depend on men ( how people used to think in medieavel ages ).

Wow, you're completely misreading her character here. First, there's no telling what her life would have been if Griffith had not intervened when she was assaulted. Second, she did idolize Griffith, but the reason she let herself fall off the cliff isn't just because Griffith is gone. She'd led the Band of the Falcon through much darker times than Griffith ever had, for a year, and she was exhausted. It's a combination of factors that lead to that moment of confusion and her decision to jump. And to say she's been taught to depend on men is preposterous. Casca was Griffith's right-hand woman throughout the entire Golden Age arc, and only Guts ever outdid her on that front. She actually supported Griffith much more than he supported her, and part of why she was originally so angry at Guts is because he did not follow her ways in that regard.

As for her relationship with Guts, it isn't anything like what she had with Griffith. They're a couple, and again she would have supported Guts as much if not more than the opposite. The biggest evidence of that is her attempt to let him go so he can live the life he wants while she'd stay behind to take care of a crippled Griffith, essentially forfeiting her own happiness for his sake. Because while he wanted to stay too, she didn't want him to be miserable. Casca is not an indestructible character, she has sensitivies and a soft side for sure, but she's literally the anti-thesis of what you're describing. She embodies the feminine ideal of selflessness and devotion. Someone you can depend on, not that depends on others.

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2016, 09:36:37 PM »
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Well then you'd be wrong, because what Casca felt for Guts before she lost her mind was definitely love.

Opinion. She came to " love " Guts because she was vulnerable and he was there. Before that she idolized Griffith and turned quickly to Guts when she realised Griffith can't be hers.

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Wow, you're completely misreading her character here. First, there's no telling what her life would have been if Griffith had not intervened when she was assaulted. Second, she did idolize Griffith, but the reason she let herself fall off the cliff isn't just because Griffith is gone. She'd led the Band of the Falcon through much darker times than Griffith ever had, for a year, and she was exhausted. It's a combination of factors that lead to that moment of confusion and her decision to jump. And to say she's been taught to depend on men is preposterous. Casca was Griffith's right-hand woman throughout the entire Golden Age arc, and only Guts ever outdid her on that front. She actually supported Griffith much more than he supported her, and part of why she was originally so angry at Guts is because he did not follow her ways in that regard.

No telling? Im quite sure we were able to tell what her life would have been like in the first few seconds of that carriage ride. It certainly wouldn't have been any kind of sword fantasy that she had with band of hawk. Unless you're being ambigious and just saying her life could have been 100 shades of horrible, which we can all conclue on their own. However, implying it would have been better is highly unlikely.

And yes, she was exhausted, but the fact she relied on men , well i should rephrase it. Not on any men, but first Griffith and then Guts is not misreading at all. She collapsed with Griffith's capture, and then when she saw the state he was in she almost completely gave up. WHo was there to stop that? Guts.

Besides, I meant the dependance on men was written to her character because of the time period the manga borrows, when women had no rights and were considered objects and properties of men. She might have appeared strong on the outside, and she was, but that was only when Griffith was around, and then Guts later.

She had to adapt to battlefield lifestyle and life among men.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2016, 09:51:59 PM »
Opinion. She came to " love " Guts because she was vulnerable and he was there. Before that she idolized Griffith and turned quickly to Guts when she realised Griffith can't be hers.

It's black and white on the page, so that's hardly a matter of opinion. And to say she just defaulted back on Guts "because he was there" really doesn't do justice to either characters nor to the development of their relationship over the course of several volumes. Seems to me you should re-read the manga.

No telling? Im quite sure we were able to tell what her life would have been like in the first few seconds of that carriage ride. It certainly wouldn't have been any kind of sword fantasy that she had with band of hawk. Unless you're being ambigious and just saying her life could have been 100 shades of horrible, which we can all conclue on their own. However, implying it would have been better is highly unlikely.

It's the Band of the Falcon, and "her life would be over" is typically understood to mean she'd have died. But we don't know that she would have. And she might have escaped or fought back eventually, or who knows what. The point is we don't know, and you're just letting your preconceptions show by stating otherwise.

And yes, she was exhausted, but the fact she relied on men , well i should rephrase it. Not on any men, but first Griffith and then Guts is not misreading at all. She collapsed with Griffith's capture, and then when she saw the state he was in she almost completely gave up. WHo was there to stop that? Guts.

She collapsed? She led the Band of the Falcon without flinching for the hardest year of their existence. That's not "collapsing". As for being shaken when she saw the state Griffith was in (she did not "almost completely give up"), so were they all, Guts included. He cried when he saw Griffith's face. Also, one of the first things she did after becoming Guts' lover was also to help him get over the childhood trauma that had haunted him all his life. And to this day, Casca is the reason Guts can keep fighting and stay sane.

Besides, I meant the dependance on men was written to her character because of the time period the manga borrows, when women had no rights and were considered objects and properties of men. She might have appeared strong on the outside, and she was, but that was only when Griffith was around, and then Guts later.

The manga does not borrow a time period, it's set in a fantasy world. It's not a historical story, and historically women were definitely not as dependant on men as you seem to think anyway. During the Middle Ages, wives could legally duel their husbands to the death if they were wronged. I'm not sure where you get your information, but you should probably update it. Anyhow, you're flat-out wrong about Casca, as I already explained (she was shown to be strong leading the Band of the Falcon on her own), and as anyone can plainly see in the manga. In conclusion, let me repeat again that Casca did a lot more to support Griffith than he did to support her. In fact, if you'll remember what she tells Guts at the waterfall, she blames him for not realizing that Griffith was weak without the moral support Guts provided him.

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2016, 10:02:12 PM »
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And to say she just defaulted back on Guts "because he was there" really doesn't do justice to either characters nor to the development of their relationship over the course of several volumes. Seems to me you should re-read the manga.

You might want to pretty it up in any way you want, but that's how it was. They fell of the cliff, they bonded and shared close moments, later griffith fucked up, casca wanted to end her life, and guts was there to save it. * shrug * There's no need for fancy words in order to establish the way things went. In any case, its my opinion, saying im flat out wrong is like saying red is a better colour than blue. Not what i'd expect from an admin of the site.

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's the Band of the Falcon, and "her life would be over" is typically understood to mean she'd have died. But we don't know that she would have. And she might have escaped or fought back eventually, or who knows what. The point is we don't know, and you're just letting your preconceptions show by stating otherwise.

And you're providing no argument beyond " we don't know ". However, we can agree at least with the band she had food, adequate protection and comrades. I'll take that over any noble sex toy/slave chances.

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She collapsed? She led the Band of the Falcon without flinching for the hardest year of their existence. That's not "collapsing". As for being shaken when she saw the state Griffith was in (she did not "almost completely give up"), so were they all, Guts included. He cried when he saw Griffith's face. Also, one of the first things she did after becoming Guts' lover was also to help him get over the childhood trauma that had haunted him all his life. And to this day, Casca is the reason Guts can keep fighting and stay sane.

Sigh. Yes, she collapsed, after leading them to some point. Not sure what are you trying to say here though, because all of these things are true and I was never arguing them, only that she was depending on Griffith and Guts. Oh, and she still does, obviously.

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he manga does not borrow a time period, it's set in a fantasy world. It's not a historical story, and historically women were definitely not as dependant on men as you seem to think anyway. During the Middle Ages, wives could legally duel their husbands to the death if they were wronged. I'm not sure where you get your information, but you should probably update it. Anyhow, you're flat-out wrong about Casca, as I already explained (she was shown to be strong leading the Band of the Falcon on her own), and as anyone can plainly see in the manga. In conclusion, let me repeat again that Casca did a lot more to support Griffith than he did to support her. In fact, if you'll remember what she tells Guts at the waterfall, she blames him for not realizing that Griffith was weak without the moral support Guts provided him.

Please, what else but a mediaeval fantasy world? Swords, magic, etc. To me it sounds like you're nitpicking only for the sake of having something to say. I didn't literally meant the setting is in medieavel age, but that its potrayed as so. As for being flat out wrong... eh, yeah I think ill end this argument here.


Resonance

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Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2016, 10:15:09 PM »
During the Middle Ages, wives could legally duel their husbands to the death if they were wronged.

Huh, I never knew about that. Guess you learn something new everyday.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2016, 01:21:36 PM »
You might want to pretty it up in any way you want, but that's how it was. They fell of the cliff, they bonded and shared close moments, later griffith fucked up, casca wanted to end her life, and guts was there to save it. * shrug * There's no need for fancy words in order to establish the way things went. In any case, its my opinion, saying im flat out wrong is like saying red is a better colour than blue. Not what i'd expect from an admin of the site.

Dude, this is a story. Casca and Guts fell in love because the author decided they would. You can shrug all you want and deny it as strongly as you can, but you are wrong in saying Casca didn't love Guts and just needed to "depend on someone", with Guts happening to "just be there". Miura even bothers to show that Judo also loved her but that it was unrequited. Guts and Casca's love is at the core of the entire story of Berserk. Guts' love for Casca is what brought him to Elfhelm, and it's what prevents him from succumbing to madness everytime he fights. Casca's restoration and the beginning of her new relationship with Guts is basically the most awaited event in the story right now.

And you're providing no argument beyond " we don't know ". However, we can agree at least with the band she had food, adequate protection and comrades. I'll take that over any noble sex toy/slave chances.

But... I don't need to provide arguments. The fact something is unknown is plain to see. Again, this is a story. It went the way it did because the author decided it would. We have no means of knowing how it would have gone otherwise, but what is sure is that Casca's life would not have immediately ended.

Sigh. Yes, she collapsed, after leading them to some point. Not sure what are you trying to say here though, because all of these things are true and I was never arguing them, only that she was depending on Griffith and Guts. Oh, and she still does, obviously.

You're being disingenuous. You said "she collapsed with Griffith's capture", which implies that as soon as he was gone she couldn't function anymore. That was to support your argument that Casca, as a weak woman, needs a man to be able to do anything. Now that I've corrected you by reminding you that she led the Band of the Falcon alone during the hardest year of their existence, you're pretending that her eventual breakdown after a year's worth of combat fatigue is what you meant all along. But it's not and everyone can see that. She did not depend on Guts or Griffith to lead the band during that year. But beyond that, even when Griffith was around she did more supporting than vice versa. When he was hurting himself in the water after a night with Gennon, she was the one to provide him comfort. And at the waterfall, her argument with Guts revolves entirely around her intimate understanding of (and Guts' blindness to) Griffith's weakness and need for support, a support she could not provide anymore after Guts replaced her as Griffith's confident. Last example: when the Eclipse occurs and everyone panicks, Casca is the one who rallies them and keeps order. Guts then realizes that she is a much greater leader than he had previously thought.

Please, what else but a mediaeval fantasy world? Swords, magic, etc. To me it sounds like you're nitpicking only for the sake of having something to say. I didn't literally meant the setting is in medieavel age, but that its potrayed as so. As for being flat out wrong... eh, yeah I think ill end this argument here.

It can be plainly seen by all that Berserk's world and setting borrows liberally from various cultures and time periods, ranging from Ancient Greece or India to the late Renaissance. You mention swords, but some of the swords shown in Berserk are from 1000 B.C. Others are from the 17th century. None of that is medieval, nor does it support your prejudices against Casca. Anyway, ending this discussion does seem to be the wisest move to me.

Huh, I never knew about that. Guess you learn something new everyday.

There are a lot of misconceptions about that time period. The idea of "Dark Ages" is pretty much bullshit.

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Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2016, 01:48:11 PM »
There are a lot of misconceptions about that time period. The idea of "Dark Ages" is pretty much bullshit.

Definately, now I feel that I should put some research into the time period so I can see if Berserk tries to replicate it/stay faithful. So far it looks accurate seeing as Casca punches Guts's face a couple of times throughout the manga after he annoys her  :troll:

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2016, 02:15:27 PM »
Ah I see what the problem is here, you misunderstood me, or I was not clear enough, apologies if so. Also apologies if i came off as aggressive.

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Dude, this is a story. Casca and Guts fell in love because the author decided they would. You can shrug all you want and deny it as strongly as you can, but you are wrong in saying Casca didn't love Guts and just needed to "depend on someone", with Guts happening to "just be there"

Yes I know she loves him. Actually I never denied it, but due to how I phrased things I can see why you misunderstood me. I only ever argued in which way she fell in love with him. He was there as support, and they bonded. Technically she blamed herself because she thought she failed Griffith ( falling off cliff, fever, women's issues and what not ) and as such wanted to know why Guts always puts Griffith into danger with his recklessness right?

If we consider that she came to realise she'll never be able to be Griffith's woman, but supportive sword arm, is it that strange for her to turn to Guts, who not only risked his life for her personally, but is actually someone who she realistically can be with? I mean, I did use the phrase of switching from one to another but what i really meant was that, so I guess it came off badly to some people. I tend to be blunt honestly.


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You're being disingenuous. You said "she collapsed with Griffith's capture", which implies that as soon as he was gone she couldn't function anymore. That was to support your argument that Casca, as a weak woman, needs a man to be able to do anything. Now that I've corrected you by reminding you that she led the Band of the Falcon alone during the hardest year of their existence, you're pretending that her eventual breakdown after a year's worth of combat fatigue is what you meant all along. But it's not and everyone can see that. She did not depend on Guts or Griffith to lead the band during that year. But beyond that, even when Griffith was around she did more supporting than vice versa. When he was hurting himself in the water after a night with Gennon, she was the one to provide him comfort. And at the waterfall, her argument with Guts revolves entirely around her intimate understanding of (and Guts' blindness to) Griffith's weakness and need for support, a support she could not provide anymore after Guts replaced her as Griffith's confident. Last example: when the Eclipse occurs and everyone panicks, Casca is the one who rallies them and keeps order. Guts then realizes that she is a much greater leader than he had previously thought.

Considering Casca basically grew up with Band of the Hawk, I've always seen her as more masculine and a tomboy than an actual female-female. I dont mean that as an insult or anything, but more as a measure of adaptation to a mercenary lifestyle. Obviously she had to be tough and what not, and given she was 2nd to Griffith, she was. But that doesn't mean she was able to go on her own without Griffith or without Guts, as we have seen.

She needed that stability. She needed both of them, as you say, she loved both in a different way.

Yet we both know that Griffith meant to her more than anybody else, and despite her initial hardships and heroics, she did start to crumble, which was further enhanced by Guts' departure, wasnt it. Besides, what's so bad about needing others to depend on? They're humans, which means pack animals. Its even more nicely portrayed in bonfire of dreams episode with the embers and her conversation with Guts.


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It can be plainly seen by all that Berserk's world and setting borrows liberally from various cultures and time periods, ranging from Ancient Greece or India to the late Renaissance. You mention swords, but some of the swords shown in Berserk are from 1000 B.C. Others are from the 17th century. None of that is medieval, nor does it support your prejudices against Casca. Anyway, ending this discussion does seem to be the wisest move to me.

Mhm, quite aware of that. I was really just aiming for a generic all in one genre/keyword there. There's a lot of games/mangas that have diffferent weapons and what not from diffrent time periods but are still generally refered to as mediaeval-fantasy and what not. Its not that im not aware, its just easier to narrow it to one.

Technically, any sword/axe/halberd with castles, armours and bla bla what not is refered to as mediaeval. Unless its gothic architecture, then its usually thought of as Viktorian, with elements of macabre and horror, ne. ( Bloodborne )

THo for the sake of the argument, let's just call it Dark Fantasy and amen. I can see you're quite passionate and like everything to be " correct " but eh, im stubborn.  :schierke:


Offline Aazealh

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Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2016, 03:45:32 PM »
Ah I see what the problem is here, you misunderstood me, or I was not clear enough, apologies if so. Also apologies if i came off as aggressive.

No worries.

Yes I know she loves him. Actually I never denied it, but due to how I phrased things I can see why you misunderstood me. I only ever argued in which way she fell in love with him. He was there as support, and they bonded. Technically she blamed herself because she thought she failed Griffith ( falling off cliff, fever, women's issues and what not ) and as such wanted to know why Guts always puts Griffith into danger with his recklessness right?

If we consider that she came to realise she'll never be able to be Griffith's woman, but supportive sword arm, is it that strange for her to turn to Guts, who not only risked his life for her personally, but is actually someone who she realistically can be with? I mean, I did use the phrase of switching from one to another but what i really meant was that, so I guess it came off badly to some people. I tend to be blunt honestly.

Their bond grew over time and I wouldn't say it started just because he was there for support. They didn't get along at first and they opened up to each other through shared ordeals. Casca also saw that she'd been wrong about Guts' personality and motives, while he acknowledged that her abilities made her more attractive to him than any "typical" women. But what's important is that Casca came to genuinely love Guts for who he was, it's not like he was just a second choice after Griffith. Whether she actually loved Griffith is actually up for debate. She wanted to be with him for sure, but how much of her infatuation was due to idolizing him as a leader? Her relationship with Guts is very different in that regard, since they were equal (she actually had higher rank, which didn't bother Guts). Also worth reiterating is that it's not like Casca herself didn't do anything for Guts (or Griffith for that matter). She helped him many times, cared for him, healed him both physically and psychologically. She's also the only one who stood up to him, when even Griffith didn't. Their relationship is based on the sum of all these events and their love was the result.

Considering Casca basically grew up with Band of the Hawk, I've always seen her as more masculine and a tomboy than an actual female-female. I dont mean that as an insult or anything, but more as a measure of adaptation to a mercenary lifestyle. Obviously she had to be tough and what not, and given she was 2nd to Griffith, she was. But that doesn't mean she was able to go on her own without Griffith or without Guts, as we have seen.

Dude I don't know how many times I can repeat this: we are shown and told through characters in the story that Casca was an exemplary leader for the Band of the Falcon in a period where neither Griffith nor Guts were around. I don't know how you can derive from that evidence that Casca couldn't "go on her own" without them. The manga directly contradicts you. And the fact she was exhausted by the time Guts returned doesn't undermine the rest, it's on the contrary a testimony to the tough times they endured. The whole group was on the verge of breaking down by that point.

Yet we both know that Griffith meant to her more than anybody else, and despite her initial hardships and heroics, she did start to crumble, which was further enhanced by Guts' departure, wasnt it. Besides, what's so bad about needing others to depend on? They're humans, which means pack animals. Its even more nicely portrayed in bonfire of dreams episode with the embers and her conversation with Guts.

I'm not sure what you're even talking about here. The sequence of events doesn't really correspond to what you're describing. Casca didn't want Guts to leave in volume 8 because she had fallen in love with him. That scene when she yells his name as Griffith lies on his knees in the snow is the big reveal that Casca's love for Guts has outgrown her devotion to Griffith. It's changed her, as Judo remarks. Then Griffith gets captured, and shortly thereafter Casca (despite being severely wounded in the ambush the Band of the Falcon falls into) goes on to lead the troops by herself for a full year. By the time Guts returns (in volume 9), the Band of the Falcon is in disarray after a year of being on the run and suffering constant attacks. Then at that point she has a breakdown.

Mhm, quite aware of that. I was really just aiming for a generic all in one genre/keyword there. There's a lot of games/mangas that have diffferent weapons and what not from diffrent time periods but are still generally refered to as mediaeval-fantasy and what not. Its not that im not aware, its just easier to narrow it to one. Technically, any sword/axe/halberd with castles, armours and bla bla what not is refered to as mediaeval. Unless its gothic architecture, then its usually thought of as Viktorian, with elements of macabre and horror, ne. ( Bloodborne ) THo for the sake of the argument, let's just call it Dark Fantasy and amen. I can see you're quite passionate and like everything to be " correct " but eh, im stubborn.  :schierke:

All I'm saying is that Berserk does not accurately reproduce a specific historical time period, nor does it try to. It's not that I can't stand to see "medieval" used as a misnomer, but deriving what mores and social values must apply to Berserk's fantasy world based on your perception of what the Middle Ages were like is just far-fetched. Anyway, if we need to use a specific term for Berserk's genre, "fantasy" is it.

As for the Victorian era (named after Queen Victoria), it's not simply limited to Gothic architecture. Gothic architecture dates back 600 years before Victoria was born. There was a revival of it during her reign, but typically what is most associated with that term and era is the industrial revolution. That's why for fiction it's usually associated with the Steampunk genre.

Offline Voldo

Re: Casca's love for Guts
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2017, 11:00:22 AM »
When Grffith and Guts were about the have their duel before Guts' departure, Casca basically defied Griffiths orders and went inbetween them. She had seen Griffith as a God whos orders were absolute. But her love for Guts had really started to grow.

Might not be the ultimate moment, but I'd certainly say it's one of the the greater.