Author Topic: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.  (Read 7229 times)

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Offline Hensmon

Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« on: September 08, 2015, 08:07:36 PM »
Causality aside, could Griffith had made a decent recovery if given the time and treatment?

We are told he will never ride a horse, swing a sword, speak or stand on his own two legs again. These combined disabilities make him near useless as a leader and the Band realise this and it causes depression for many and they loose all hope. But could he have been their leader again? Guts is given a metal and fully functioning arm when he looses it, so why could Griffith not have been given the same technology for all his limbs, thus allowing him to walk, fight and ride again. Although still mute, he would have been able to lead with these restored qualities in my opinion, using others to give commands (he would be able to now write after all). Combine this with his incredible will and desire he has been gifted with, surely he could have bounced back and more so than anyone.

What do you guys think?

Offline Walter

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2015, 08:20:09 PM »
Guts is given a metal and fully functioning arm when he looses it, so why could Griffith not have been given the same technology for all his limbs, thus allowing him to walk, fight and ride again. Although still mute, he would have been able to lead with these restored qualities in my opinion, using others to give commands (he would be able to now write after all).

There's a lot to unpack here. First of all, Guts' artificial arm is practically useless except for use as a weapon. The same technology, if you can even call it that, wouldn't be functional as a replacement for a leg, much less a set of legs. Furthermore, Griffith's tendons were cut, so what muscles would he be using to operate these thick, metal contraptions?

Beyond the technical limitations of what you propose, I think you're really overlooking the heart of the matter -- Griffith's mind had been warped from his time locked away in a cell. He wasn't the same man anymore. He couldn't have been the same Griffith as he was, and not only because of his physical disabilities, but because he had his dream taken away from him, and driven at least partially insane, for the good part of a year.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Hensmon

Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2015, 08:27:52 PM »
Ah ok, I always thought that Guts arm was more than just a dangling cannon and that he had could operate fingers and grasp his sword. I guess I didn't pay enough attention in the manga to notice that he never used his left arm in this way.

His mind though I believe could have recovered. He was a broken man (understandably), but people can bounce back from these things right, especially someone like Griffith. Maybe he could have regained his mental stability through support and begun a new life with a new goal (just like in his dream). Just a thought!

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2015, 08:38:52 PM »
Ah ok, I always thought that Guts arm was more than just a dangling cannon and that he had could operate fingers and grasp his sword. I guess I didn't pay enough attention in the manga to notice that he never used his left arm in this way.

This kind of thing (being able to move a prosthesis by yourself) is barely possible in this day and age, even experimentally...

His artificial forearm is equipped with magnets, that's how it can grasp the sword. But episode 287, at the beginning of volume 33, does a great job of reminding us that what Guts has lost cannot be so simply regained.

His mind though I believe could have recovered. He was a broken man (understandably), but people can bounce back from these things right, especially someone like Griffith. Maybe he could have regained his mental stability through support and begun a new life with a new goal (just like in his dream). Just a thought!

I think you're overly optimistic here. Could he have recovered some mental stability over time? Possibly. But the end of his dream, and the prospect of living as a cripple being tended to by his former subordinates? To have these people who used to idolize him instead pity him? That would have been unbearable to him. That's what motivated him to leave like he did. The life he saw in that little dream was worse than death to him, which is why he tried to kill himself.

But of course, you shouldn't forget that everything we're talking about here was simply a very elaborate set up conceived with the single goal of creating Femto, the fifth member of the God Hand. Griffith's entire life, including both his rise to glory and his descent to hell, was but a prelude to that.

Offline slothqueen

Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2015, 09:52:02 PM »
I think that purely phisically he could bounce back. Taking in concern way he was able to move after tortures, he could be able to walk (slowly and carefully) with his ankles reinforced in kind of top-boots. He could get some stiff glove to apply on a hand, helping him with wielding a sword, or - at least - a weapon to apply on a hand itself. But it wasn't a problem - I agree with Walter and Aazealh, that main problem with Griffith was in his broken mind, not body. Griffith gone through experiences of loneliness, humiliation, pain and helplessness so severe, that they would throw most people into complete madness. Griffith went out of them in relatively good condition, but later experiences of pity from his subordinates and perspective of being an unwanted burden for them have taken last pieces of hope from him. If building his position from a level of young, cunning, strong, handsome man took him years, how long would it take to rebuild it as a cripple outlaw?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2015, 07:13:52 AM »
I think that purely phisically he could bounce back. Taking in concern way he was able to move after tortures, he could be able to walk (slowly and carefully) with his ankles reinforced in kind of top-boots. He could get some stiff glove to apply on a hand, helping him with wielding a sword, or - at least - a weapon to apply on a hand itself.

The manga makes it expressly clear that he couldn't have bounced back. His tendons had been cut in key places and his muscles weren't in any proper state either. That's not something orthotics could have solved.

Offline Pedro-kun

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2015, 07:38:30 AM »
Absolutely not, Griffith was pretty much in a ''vegetative state'', he couldn't do anything by his own.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2015, 08:51:45 AM »
Absolutely not, Griffith was pretty much in a ''vegetative state'', he couldn't do anything by his own.

No a "vegetative state" refers to brain damage, when people aren't really conscious.

Offline Pedro-kun

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2015, 09:25:43 AM »
No a "vegetative state" refers to brain damage, when people aren't really conscious.
I know, that's why I put it under quote marks, therefore, it shouldn't be read in its literal meaning.  :ganishka:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2015, 09:29:10 AM »
I know, that's why I put it under quote marks, therefore, it shouldn't be read in its literal meaning.  :ganishka:

Uh huh.

Offline slothqueen

Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2015, 07:13:15 AM »
Judo told that he couldn't. He told also that it's his own opinion and that he's not a doctor.

Look, that tendons Griffith got cut off, was - taking in concern way he was able to crawl and visible scars - tendons of muscles of hands and Achilles tendons in legs. He wasn't able to move his wrists and fingers, nor grab anything (muscles of hand destroyed), and he wasn't able to stand unsupported on his own legs (Achilles tendon cut off). I didn't see scars on his body nor effects on way he was moving his limbs suggesting that also more proximal tendons were destroyed. Griffith clearly had abilities of bending and straightening his elbows and knees, so I have basis to claim that his muscles there were just atrophic, not destroyed, and that they could be rebuild. Torturer had cut what he had cut just to prevent Griffith's escape on his own (King would be dissatisfied, very dissatisfied...), not to make a ragdoll out of him.

Offline Walter

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2015, 01:34:51 PM »
Judo told that he couldn't. He told also that it's his own opinion and that he's not a doctor.

That's the diagnosis that Miura surfaced to the readers, so we kind of have to take his word for it. We have no reason to believe he was wrong, apart from the desire to make this thread more interesting.  :badbone:
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Offline Vixen Comics

Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2015, 04:47:13 PM »
in this hypothetical situation of Griffith bouncing back in any way, do you think fairy dust could have done him any good on injuries as severe as the ones Griffith sustained from his torture? We have seen the Puck's magic work wonders on Guts injuries from time to time.
/center]

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2015, 04:50:53 PM »
Judo told that he couldn't. He told also that it's his own opinion and that he's not a doctor.

Look, that tendons Griffith got cut off, was - taking in concern way he was able to crawl and visible scars - tendons of muscles of hands and Achilles tendons in legs. He wasn't able to move his wrists and fingers, nor grab anything (muscles of hand destroyed), and he wasn't able to stand unsupported on his own legs (Achilles tendon cut off). I didn't see scars on his body nor effects on way he was moving his limbs suggesting that also more proximal tendons were destroyed. Griffith clearly had abilities of bending and straightening his elbows and knees, so I have basis to claim that his muscles there were just atrophic, not destroyed, and that they could be rebuild. Torturer had cut what he had cut just to prevent Griffith's escape on his own (King would be dissatisfied, very dissatisfied...), not to make a ragdoll out of him.

I think your affection for Griffith's character has clouded your judgment. You mention Griffith having control over his elbows, but remember the scene in volume 12 when he gets up from the lake after crashing. He looks at his elbow, and lifts his arm... and the forearm stays pointing down. That's what prompts him to try and kill himself, after laughing hysterically. And while we're not explicitly shown that his knees had been damaged, I don't think it's too far-fetched to think they were. The torturer had his little fun with Griffith for his own enjoyment, it went way beyond just preventing an escape.

Anyway, my point is that everything in the story points to the fact he was going to be grieviously handicapped for the rest of his life. That's how everyone saw it, including Griffith himself. To suggest he could have "bounced back" and fought again seems delusional to me.

in this hypothetical situation of Griffith bouncing back in any way, do you think fairy dust could have done him any good on injuries as severe as the ones Griffith sustained from his torture? We have seen the Puck's magic work wonders on Guts injuries from time to time.

Not after so long. If they had been fresh injuries it could have probably mitigated most of it, although it'd have drained him.

Offline slothqueen

Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2015, 05:21:54 PM »
You mention Griffith having control over his elbows, but remember the scene in volume 12 when he gets up from the lake after crashing. He looks at his elbow, and lifts his arm... and the forearm stays pointing down.

I always thought it is obvious, that he broke his arm while falling from the wagon. We can see a bone protruding from his arm, and even - as you see closer - the flexion is slightly over his elbow. He laughed hysterically, because he realized that now he cannot even crawl (inter alia, apart from realizing of being shitty parody of his former self).

Sorry about long discussion, but I am nearly sure, what injuries Griffith had, and how he could've deal with them. I watched third part of anime exactly week before my anatomy exams, and started manga slightly before. I had fun analyzing which injuries would make you move like Griffith, and talk about them with my bro, who's also studying medicine and watched Berserk :>

 

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2015, 05:55:39 PM »
I always thought it is obvious, that he broke his arm while falling from the wagon. We can see a bone protruding from his arm, and even - as you see closer - the flexion is slightly over his elbow.

That's a possibility, and in fact that's how I tend to interpret it that he hurt his arm in the fall but at the same time nothing explicitly points to that. We just see him get up and it happens. Meanwhile, when Wyald undresses him at the end of volume 11, we're shown a close-up shot of his inner elbows... And there is extensive damage shown in that zone. Same for the knees and the rest of the legs. Either way, what matter is that his arm was useless at that point.

He laughed hysterically, because he realized that now he cannot even crawl (inter alia, apart from realizing of being shitty parody of his former self).

He laughs because his arm is useless, I don't think it's specifically tied to crawling. One can crawl even without limbs.

Sorry about long discussion, but I am nearly sure, what injuries Griffith had, and how he could've deal with them. I watched third part of anime exactly week before my anatomy exams, and started manga slightly before. I had fun analyzing which injuries would make you move like Griffith, and talk about them with my bro, who's also studying medicine and watched Berserk :>

I don't mind the long discussion, but I'm also quite sure you're wrong. Like I've already said, everything in the story tells us that Griffith was broken beyond repair. Everyone had lost hope, even the most optimistic believers. That in itself is enough for us to derive a conclusion regarding what future Griffith had as a warrior. In fact, it takes precedence over everything else, including specific details in panels, because it's the story as the author is telling it.

Griffith had undergone extensive torture to an extent we're not told much about beyond "it's horrifying". We don't know exactly how he was hurt, but we know his skin, tendons, muscles (and bones?) were damaged in various places. He was also kept famished for a year and was seriously malnourished. That is not something you come back from intact, even in our day and age. Also, adaptations of the manga are not canon and shouldn't be taken as a reference.

Offline IcePuck

Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2015, 07:50:55 AM »
Look, that tendons Griffith got cut off, was - taking in concern way he was able to crawl and visible scars - tendons of muscles of hands and Achilles tendons in legs. He wasn't able to move his wrists and fingers, nor grab anything (muscles of hand destroyed), and he wasn't able to stand unsupported on his own legs (Achilles tendon cut off). I didn't see scars on his body nor effects on way he was moving his limbs suggesting that also more proximal tendons were destroyed. Griffith clearly had abilities of bending and straightening his elbows and knees, so I have basis to claim that his muscles there were just atrophic, not destroyed, and that they could be rebuild.

Let's say this is an accurate diagnosis. How on earth could Griffith ever have "bounced back" from that?! Very slowly crawled up and taken a few ambling steps with the aid of crutches, more like. =)

Swordfighting requires a lot more than than being able to stand up and hold a sword - you couldn't even use a spoon well without the ability to manipulate it with your fingers. Not to mention that Griffith's face was ruined, and his tongue was cut out. You don't bounce back from having no tongue. Even with the best imaginable recovery, Griffith would have still been a pitiable cripple.

Who knows what might have been done with magic, though? If not restoring lost limbs, maybe some other... solution. But of course no one really knew about magic back then, and searching for a cure for Griffith would have been a whole different manga. :ganishka:

Offline Walter

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2015, 01:29:03 PM »
Who knows what might have been done with magic, though? If not restoring lost limbs, maybe some other... solution. But of course no one really knew about magic back then, and searching for a cure for Griffith would have been a whole different manga. :ganishka:

He could just tie a piece of his hair around the finger of everyone in his kingdom, and then use telepathy like Schierke. Simple! :griffnotevil:
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Griffith have recovered after being rescued and captured.
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2015, 06:22:49 PM »
Who knows what might have been done with magic, though? If not restoring lost limbs, maybe some other... solution. But of course no one really knew about magic back then, and searching for a cure for Griffith would have been a whole different manga.

As a matter of fact, Griffith was indeed able to "bounce back" thanks to magic. Just not the kind you're alluding to here. :slan: :ubik: :void: