Episode 341

[jackson_hurley]

I forgot to mention it in my last post but, wow Rakshas is one dreadfull and scary apostle. I'm trying to imagine Guts fighting him. In some way, I think I'd like to see  Silat and the tapasa taking him down, if there's some final battle somehow towards the end.

[Aazealh]

Maybe Zodd could smack down a Minotaur.

That's too weak for him. A Chimera-like creature, maybe? That'd be more like it.

I forgot to mention it in my last post but, wow Rakshas is one dreadfull and scary apostle. I'm trying to imagine Guts fighting him. In some way, I think I'd like to see  Silat and the tapasa taking him down, if there's some final battle somehow towards the end.

Yep, that would be nice.

[N7Paladin]

  Great episode. The snakes and rats used by Daiba as a distraction were great, I expected them to fly off on Garuda, but not three of them. I thought the rocket launcher was a bit out there, but it was still pretty cool.

Rakshas probably has a new hatred for fire..... and might be my favorite apostle at this point.

[Judo]

Wow. Rakshas never ceases to creep the hell out of me... his changeability is truly frightening. Though I have to admit that I still kinda miss the old mask.
Great job as always, Miura-sama!

[Aazealh]

To elaborate a bit on the summary, Rakshas comments that he's uncomfortable because the fire isn't completely out as he's about to rip Erika open, clearly intending to use her blood to finish the job. After saving her, Daiba says that he's paid off his debt (referring to the leg brace he was given). When he asks Silat whether he can join them, Daiba says that they were both remnants, square pegs that don't fit in round holes, outsiders who have no place in this new world. Silat asks Rickert, his "employer", what his decision is. Rickert tells Silat that he has no reason to turn Daiba down.

Daiba comments, as the snakes constrain Rakshas, that to them he's just a rag, and that it's pointless to fight him full on. He also mentions that since the Garuda have been confined for so long, they're eager to fly off at full speed. He then adds that as long as he's with the group, the Garuda won't try to eat them. Something I only mention in case people have missed it, but Erika's the one who stops to go get the rocket launcher from the wagon. Clever girl. Anyway, Daiba expects them to be out of danger once they take off, and is surprised to see that "the crumpled rug can fly". They can't outrun Rakshas because they're heavily loaded. Luka's final words is wishing them well.

[ApostleBob]

Thanks for the extra detail Aaz!

[MrFlibble]

My only gripe with this episode is the way Rakshas got out, one moment he's immobilized by rats and snakes, the next he's snake free and in pursuit like nothing happened. It would have helped to have a scene where he shook the snakes off or something. However it is exciting to see an apostle with a smorgasbord of different forms, makes me wonder if the apostle mains have any abilities we haven't seen yet. 

[Tripas]

Great episode! But I've to say that for me it isn't just at the level of the previous ones. It was kinda "anticlimatic", mainly because the conclusion of this conflict was already predicted, almost step by step. Anyway, Rakshas has demonstrated to be a freaking badass (if someone didn't think that yet) and the rocket launcher... I've no words for it. Based Rickert.

On the other hand, with this episode Miura has opened a new door in terms of Griffith's relationship with the Child. Can the Child manifest by himself? Maybe the fullmoon works as a catalyst for the "switches" at specific times? Or the Griffith we see in this episode is actually in catatonic state...

[Delta Phi]

I got a kick out of the bazooka, but am not too surprised Rickert came up with something like that. He just keeps impressing me with his inventions. But I think the biggest surprises were Griffith standing in front of a full moon, and the [not one, not two, but] three Garuda!

I'm really curious about the Moonlight Boy and Griffith's connection. I can't look at that grassy knoll and not see Zodd. Perhaps the boy is some kind of (physical?) astral projection and maybe Griffith is indeed catatonic on that balcony...

[Walter]

The downside of predicting almost every beat of this encounter is that I have almost nothing to add to this thread 

Am I really the first to say RICKERT LAUNCHER! ?

I don't think seeing Griffith next to a full moon changes anything about our understanding of the relationship between the child, him, and the moon. The power of the full moon likely gives the boy the chance to seize control, not necessarily that it happens each and every time, for exactly the duration of the full moon. The change could happen later, or not at all. The boy has always appeared when his parents were in a dire situation. Lately that involves Guts and the effects of the armor. Perhaps he doesn't need saving right now. So it's not a visitation weekend this time.

That being said, it does raise the question of why muddle the issue by showing a full moon at all? I don't have an answer for that, but this episode's ending didnt change anything for me.

I did however wonder if Griffith ever left his perch from when we last saw him 

[Theozilla]

The downside of predicting almost every beat of this encounter is that I have almost nothing to add to this thread 

Am I really the first to say RICKERT LAUNCHER! ?

I don't think seeing Griffith next to a full moon changes anything about our understanding of the relationship between the child, him, and the moon. The power of the full moon likely gives the boy the chance to seize control, not necessarily that it happens each and every time, for exactly the duration of the full moon. The change could happen later, or not at all. The boy has always appeared when his parents were in a dire situation. Lately that involves Guts and the effects of the armor. Perhaps he doesn't need saving right now. So it's not a visitation weekend this time.

That being said, it does raise the question of why muddle the issue by showing a full moon at all? I don't have an answer for that, but this episode's ending didn't change anything for me.

I did however wonder if Griffith ever left his perch from when we last saw him 

I agree that this episode doesn't completely negate the possibility that the Moonlight Boy takes control of/transforms Griffith's physical vessel during full moons, like you stated in your reasoning.
But it also raises the possibility that maybe the nature of their relationship is slightly different from what readers originally speculated, maybe it is similar to a fission/defusion process, like maybe what occurs is that Moonlight Boy emerges/splits off from Griffith's physical vessel instead?

[Walter]

, maybe it is similar to a fission/defusion process, like maybe what occurs is that Moonlight Boy emerges/splits off from Griffith's physical vessel instead?

You mean like an astral projection? That actually complicates things. The boy has form and weight. Also, he astrally projects himself to rescue Guts from the sea god. Furthermore if he were a projection, Zodd wouldn't need to be around the rocky cliffs outside Vritannis (the boy also leaves during that time by climbing up a rocky cliff), presumably ferrying him back and forth, before the World Spiral Tree provided a more efficient form of travel. If you're proposing he creates an entirely new body every full moon, well, what allegiance would Zodd have to him?

I'm not saying we know 100% how this all works, but I've yet to encounter a more convincing alternative, given all the wrinkles present.

[Griffith]

The downside of predicting almost every beat of this encounter is that I have almost nothing to add to this thread 

Yeah, even though this episode still had some awesome surprises, basically Daiba and Rakshas showing they cany do whatever they want, including flying, it's like we talked about it already.

Am I really the first to say RICKERT LAUNCHER! ?

Bravo!

I don't think seeing Griffith next to a full moon changes anything about our understanding of the relationship between the child, him, and the moon.

That being said, it does raise the question of why muddle the issue by showing a full moon at all? I don't have an answer for that, but this episode's ending didnt change anything for me.

On the other hand, I got this mysterious PM on how the ending may change things as far as some of our moonlight boy dogma goes. EXCLUSIVE:

sup griff
hey nice predictions on this chapt-oops lol dont ban me-episode you guys. it was all pretty obvious foreshadowing but guess I cant fool you! btdubbs let me hear that wereboy theory again...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bINyQWt4Db4

 

cheers loser

kintaro

That aside, while this scenario isn't mutually exclusive with the broader ideas connecting Griffith and the boy as you point out (and we've discussed in detail before), it's a reminder there's still a lot more we don't know about the boy than we actually do, especially concerning his nature and how that plays into his probable relation to Griffith and his vessel. Anyway, it's strange to say this minor revelation is mysterious or muddling when the takeaway should be we quite clearly know more now than we thought we did before.

I did however wonder if Griffith ever left his perch from when we last saw him 

He just stands there waiting to make eye contact with anyone that leaves. So needy.

That actually complicates things. The boy isn't an astral projection. He has form and weight. Also, he astrally projects himself to rescue Guts from the sea god. Furthermore if he were a projection, Zodd wouldn't need to be around the rocky cliffs outside Vritannis (the boy also leaves during that time by climbing up a rocky cliff), presumably ferrying him back and forth, before the World Spiral Tree provided a more efficient form of travel.

I'm not saying we know 100% how this all works, but I've yet to encounter a more contvincing alternative, given all the wrinkles present.

So, 99.9%? It's still a lot of suppositions based on a lack of information, which isn't much for evidence. For all we know, the boy can physically project himself based off Griffith's power, or something else even (he certainly seemed to appear/disappear at will, and don't forget his unique astral presence). So, again, we should probably let this remind us to still keep our minds open to all the possibilities (like him being tied more to Griffith's spiritual power than his body, and so perhaps the struggle isn't a "seizing control" but the threat of separation and/or independence, which could also explain Zodd trailing the kid... allegedly ). I mean, if you want to talk complications, if Zodd, Griffith's personal bodyguard, is there at the beach and his master's physical vessel is threatened (practically or not), would he not immediately join the fray on a matter of principle? It's not like he cares about spoilers for Guts. Maybe no, but it's one of those complicating questions we're not asking too hard about.

[Aazealh]

I agree that this episode doesn't completely negate the possibility that the Moonlight Boy takes control of/transforms Griffith's physical vessel during full moons, like you stated in your reasoning.
But it also raises the possibility that maybe the nature of their relationship is slightly different from what readers originally speculated, maybe it is similar to a fission/defusion process, like maybe what occurs is that Moonlight Boy emerges/splits off from Griffith's physical vessel instead?

The actual way in which the boy manifests in regard to Griffith has always been the biggest unknown, and the part we have least speculated about aside from the idea he might just transform. There are numerous ways in which it might occur that would work with the information we already have.

For all we know, the boy can physically project himself based off Griffith's power, or something else even (he certainly seemed to appear/disappear at will, and don't forget his unique astral presence).

Well we do know he needs to travel to and from the locations he appears at.

So, again, we should probably let this remind us to still keep our minds open to all the possibilities (like him being tied more to Griffith's spiritual power than his body, and so perhaps the struggle isn't a "seizing control" but the threat of separation and/or independence, which could also explain Zodd trailing the kid... allegedly ).

It's not like we ever ruled out the idea that the boy could manifest separately from Griffith, so picturing it this way seems unfair and unwarranted to me. The transformation is just the preferred hypothesis for a number of reasons that have held true since they were first exposed in 2006. That includes the fact Zodd was overlooking their first meeting on the beach. That aside, the mental aspect of this for Griffith should not be underestimated. It is still possible that Griffith has to consciously allow the change (relinquishing control), or that he fights it everytime until it overwhelms him, and so on.

I mean, are we sure he was on that balcony because of Rakshas and Rickert? Or was it because it's the full moon and he's preparing himself, and only saw their escape as a coincidence? Going further, maybe the next episode will open with the boy manifesting himself, and then travelling to meet his parents through the World Spiral Tree's branches. I know that's far out, but you've got to admit it'd be cool to see.

[Griffith]

The actual way in which the boy manifests in regard to Griffith has always been the biggest unknown, and the part we have least speculated about aside from the idea he might just transform. There are numerous ways in which it might occur that would work with the information we already have.

Now we're talkin'.

Well we do know he needs to travel to and from the locations he appears at.

Yeah, but we know as much about the nature of that travel as we do the nature of the boy's manifestation.

It's not like we ever ruled out the idea that the boy could manifest separately from Griffith, so picturing it this way seems unfair and unwarranted to me. The transformation is just the preferred hypothesis for a number of reasons that have held true since they were first exposed in 2006. That includes the fact Zodd was overlooking their first meeting on the beach. That aside, the mental aspect of this for Griffith should not be underestimated. It is still possible that Griffith has to consciously allow the change (relinquishing control), or that he fights it everytime until it overwhelms him, and so on.

See, I feel like the second half of this quote betrays the first. It's all good theory, but I still feel like it's assuming so much about the nature of the boy vis-à-vis Griffith that, though not ruling out alternatives, it's rather stifling. It's taking too much we don't know for granted. Perhaps I'm being too conservative, but there's still so much we don't know, that's never even been addressed, some of it is almost like fanfiction on some level rather than a solid default or prospective interpretation.

I mean, are we sure he was on that balcony because of Rakshas and Rickert? Or was it because it's the full moon and he's preparing himself, and only saw their escape as a coincidence? Going further, maybe the next episode will open with the boy manifesting himself, and then travelling to meet his parents through the World Spiral Tree's branches. I know that's far out, but you've got to admit it'd be cool to see.

For sure, but it's also what I'm getting at above, as you say yourself it's far out, and I just think a lot of what we're assuming, or at least casually saying, about the boy is more out on a spiritual tree limb than we always acknowledge. It could all be true of course, and makes a ton of sense and connects a lot of dots, but it could also easily be wrong. Oh, who am I kidding? Here's the REAL reason we don't see Griffith's face at the end of this episode:

Episode 342 revealed!

[Aazealh]

Yeah, but we know as much about the nature of that travel as we do the nature of the boy's manifestation.

Well we did see him travel through the tree in his night gown. We don't have the details but at least we know he doesn't appear/disappear out of thin air... even though he can somehow move far up in the sky without being spotted.

See, I feel like the second half of this quote betrays the first. It's all good theory, but I still feel like it's assuming so much about the nature of the boy vis-à-vis Griffith that, though not ruling out alternatives, it's rather stifling. It's taking too much we don't know for granted. Perhaps I'm being too conservative, but there's still so much we don't know, that's never even been addressed, some of it is almost like fanfiction on some level rather than a solid default or prospective interpretation.

That's why it is still just a theory and not a collection of hard facts. But while some of the details are still unknown, I'm honestly very confident about the core of it. It's been repeatedly confirmed by the developments we've seen over the years.

Episode 342 revealed!

You dared to go where I didn't!

[Griffith]

Well we did see him travel through the tree in his night gown. We don't have the details but at least we know he doesn't appear/disappear out of thin air... even though he can somehow move far up in the sky without being spotted.

Yeah, but it's not like we understand the nature of any of that; does he float up to the branches like an invisible elevator or Mary Poppins? Is that the same as his more localized, and actually more mysterious, comings and goings, such as the first time we see him before the tree and he first appears and subsequently disappears? Can he just move really fast? Teleport? Become invisible? Become nothing? Even Schierke can't keep track of the little squirt.

That's why it is still just a theory and not a collection of hard facts. But while some of the details are still unknown, I'm honestly very confident about the core of it. It's been repeatedly confirmed by the developments we've seen over the years.

Until now... BUM BUM BUM!

Since we know so few details as you say, it's interesting to speculate how Fantasia might have changed things behind the scenes (though I'm sure we've covered it all before). Obviously, the distinction between the physical and astral world was such before that Femto required a physical vessel to cross over. Logically, the boy, assuming he's some manifestation of Guts/Casca's child's spirit, wouldn't transcend that law and would also require a/the vessel ("I'm taking the car tonight."). That could have very well changed with the new world, much as his mode of transportation.

An interesting aside is that Guts almost intrinsically knows more about the kid than anybody, having knowingly interacted and communicated with him on multiple levels.

You dared to go where I didn't!

I knew you were thinking it!

[Aazealh]

Yeah, but it's not like we understand the nature of any of that;

Of course, but it's still so many little clues that can point us in the right direction.

Since we know so few details as you say, it's interesting to speculate how Fantasia might have changed things behind the scenes (though I'm sure we've covered it all before). Obviously, the distinction between the physical and astral world was such before that Femto required a physical vessel to cross over. Logically, the boy, assuming he's some manifestation of Guts/Casca's child's spirit, wouldn't transcend that law and would also require a/the vessel ("I'm taking the car tonight."). That could have very well changed with the new world, much as his mode of transportation.

It's hard to speak authoritatively on the state of the world right now since we haven't had much exposure to astral side of things yet. That being said, things haven't changed for the boy in any visible manner aside from his use of the tree as a means to travel. He's still the same and still has the same powers from what we've seen. We also know that he travels through the branches using a corporeal body (and even wearing clothes), and that he can leave said body in his astral form to go seek Guts whenever needed. An astral form that, in episode 327, was made to closely resemble Griffith... Putting all of that aside, the physical vessel you mention is actually the boy's own body, so it would make sense for him to still inhabit it. That's a sentiment further reinforced by what we saw in volume 22. The fact that despite what Griffith thought, his forceful takeover of said vessel did not destroy the boy's consciousness, and that the sight of his parents awakened emotions so strong in him that he could actually wring control away from Griffith for a few seconds.

[Walter]

Whew, that's a lot of baby talk. We certainly aren't going to solve this riddle in this thread, or at this moment. I merely wanted to clarify that I don't think this episode throws much of a wrench in the gears as some were making it out to be.

Anyway, I was out of town when the ep came out, and I had to wait until just now to actually view it on a full-sized monitor. Berserk on a phone may as well be no Berserk at all... So here are more of my impressions:

Seeing the Garuda up close is fucking great. What a cool design. It's easy to just say it's a pterodactyl, but it's quite a bit more unique than that. The weird bendy neck, alligator mouth, tail, chicken legs. And the way these ferocious beasts debuted in this ep was fantastic, even if it was pretty predictable. Also, Daiba making snakes and rats work together like that   

One thing I couldn't immediately explain: When we saw Daiba levitate in Vritannis' bay, it appeared that he was manipulating water, presumably with the aid of the Kundalini. But there's no such creature here to draw that elemental power from. So, then is it just his ability to manipulate the small amount of moisture in the air to achieve that?

[Griffith]

It's hard to speak authoritatively on the state of the world right now since we haven't had much exposure to astral side of things yet. That being said, things haven't changed for the boy in any visible manner aside from his use of the tree as a means to travel. He's still the same and still has the same powers from what we've seen. We also know that he travels through the branches using a corporeal body (and even wearing clothes), and that he can leave said body in his astral form to go seek Guts whenever needed. An astral form that, in episode 327, was made to closely resemble Griffith...

So, perhaps it's just the aspect of Griffith's innocence and remorse, missing his lost friends?

Ha ha, but seriously, later in 331, when we see the boy traveling, he appears to be standing in physical form on a spirit tree branch (which Guts can notably see at the time), then as he dips into it he appears to take on an astral form, clothes and all, before moving like a shooting star, so... uh, whatever?

I think Schierke's theory on the boy is interesting as well obviously, though we have some information she doesn't. For one, the muddled physical/astral nature of the boy doesn't confound or seem beyond the pale to her, and her explanation confirming his probable ties to the moon is helpful, but most intriguing is her idea that he could have something to do with the King of the Flower Storm, that he could even be him or a representative. Perhaps the King of the Flower Storm found an ideal representative, and a way to already aid Guts and Casca, by lending some power to the the boy.

Putting all of that aside, the physical vessel you mention is actually the boy's own body, so it would make sense for him to still inhabit it. That's a sentiment further reinforced by what we saw in volume 22. The fact that despite what Griffith thought, his forceful takeover of said vessel did not destroy the boy's consciousness, and that the sight of his parents awakened emotions so strong in him that he could actually wring control away from Griffith for a few seconds.

Yes, that's very compelling, but it's also quite a leap from that sort of influence to full on transformations, but anything is possible given the unique nature of Griffith (he transforms anyway) and all the other mysterious forces potentially at work here. I take back what I said about Walter's use of the word muddled. Muddled indeed. =)

[Aazealh]

One thing I couldn't immediately explain: When we saw Daiba levitate in Vritannis' bay, it appeared that he was manipulating water, presumably with the aid of the Kundalini. But there's no such creature here to draw that elemental power from. So, then is it just his ability to manipulate the small amount of moisture in the air to achieve that?

No, Daiba used the Kundalini to create the whirlpools, but he could always just levitate by himself. He uses Sylphs for that and was already doing it during his first appearance. When he appeared to Guts in Vritannis, he was also floating in the air even before unleashing the Kundalini's power. Lastly, when Ganishka plunged himself into the artificial beherit, Daiba used his mastery of the wind element to save himself from death by deflecting the life leeching fog (creating a flux around himself) that Ganishka unleashed on the city.

Ha ha, but seriously, later in 331, when we see the boy traveling, he appears to be standing in physical form on a spirit tree branch (which Guts can notably see at the time), then as he dips into it he appears to take on an astral form, clothes and all, before moving like a shooting star, so... uh, whatever?

I think the panels are too small to tell whether he takes on an astral form or not. Could be, or his corporeal self could also be traveling through the astral world, which would make sense given the whole Fantasia thing.

I think Schierke's theory on the boy is interesting as well obviously, though we have some information she doesn't. For one, the muddled physical/astral nature of the boy doesn't confound or seem beyond the pale to her, and her explanation confirming his probable ties to the moon is helpful, but most intriguing is her idea that he could have something to do with the King of the Flower Storm, that he could even be him or a representative. Perhaps the King of the Flower Storm found an ideal representative, and a way to already aid Guts and Casca, by lending some power to the the boy.

Ehhhh, I don't buy the Elfhelm connexion Schierke pulled out of her hat. It makes sense from her perspective, but there are way too many things associating the boy to Griffith for it to be an elf matter in my opinion. Besides, that would establish the king's reach as enormous and make it weird that the group had to travel to Elfhelm while the boy came to them before they even got to Vritannis. Plus when the boy leaves the ship in episode 331, he goes in the other direction, not towards Elfhelm (unless the Sea Horse is dramatically off course). There's more but basically it doesn't hold water to me.

However there's one unexplained thing about the boy that we didn't mention and it's what sticks out the most in the current theory as far as I'm concerned: the fact his power comes without evil. He doesn't make the Brand bleed, and Schierke doesn't feel evil in his Od. That's the bigger mystery to me, assuming his power is somehow tied to that of Femto. Maybe the Beherit Apostle made his wish (to be a real boy, of course) come true in this "perfect world" of his. ;)

[Devilwoman]

As usual thanks Aazealh for the summary. What a great episode, glad to see Daiba play a role in the escape.
So if Griffith can stand in the full moon in his own body then that rules out the possibility of him being the moonlight boy.
So we could see Guts and co next? Awesome but I don't want to get my hopes too high...Can't wait for next episode.

[Walter]

So if Griffith can stand in the full moon in his own body then that rules out the possibility of him being the moonlight boy.

No, it doesn't. You should explore the discussion thread.

[Devilwoman]

No, it doesn't. You should explore the discussion thread.

Maybe, or maybe not. Clearly we don't know the exact details of how Griffith could appear as the moonlight boy during the full moon. Nor are we sure that the moonlight boy is a separate entity from Griffith, rather than it being simply Griffith transformed. But to me it looks like if Griffith can stand in the full moon without having to revert to the moonlight boy who is most likely Guts and Casca's child, then it changes a few things.
We assume that Griffith cannot control this state, and that during a full moon the child seizes control of his original body, as he has appeared to his parents in order to help them. But here we have Griffith standing in the moonlight while there is a full moon without the boy taking over. So it could be that Griffith willingly relinquishes the control of his body, during full moons since I believe that Schierke said that spirits are the strongest in that period.
As to why he would do that, well it could be a bunch of things. We saw that Griffith is still curious about Guts, as he was seen watching him in Vritannis, and in this episode something similar happens with Rickert.So if he wants to keep up, so to speak, with Guts  then what better way to send his own son. However the child was seen helping his parents so it's more likely that Griffith has to let him out once in a while, to meet his parents since he yearns for them. And during the full moon it could be that the child becomes more powerful, so it becomes harder for Griffith to contain him.
I also find the theory that the boy could be an avatar of the Flower Storm king to be really interesting, and he uses that form because it could be familiar to Casca at the very least. She sure cares about the boy and was worried that he wasn't there anymore, but I feel it would make more sense that she'd act that way if it's her own son, rather than just a manifestation.
Well I tried to wrap my head around it a bit, right now we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle,so it's kinda hard to come up with a definite answer. And sorry if I sounded definite in my first post, I was simply thinking about that possiblity, it wasn't in anyway an elaborate answer. Just me caught in my thought process.

[SpaceyLauss]

Thank you so much for the summary Aazealh