Author Topic: Episode 341  (Read 28222 times)

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Online Walter

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2015, 01:26:18 AM »
We assume that Griffith cannot control this state, and that during a full moon the child seizes control of his original body, as he has appeared to his parents in order to help them. But here we have Griffith standing in the moonlight while there is a full moon without the boy taking over. So it could be that Griffith willingly relinquishes the control of his body, during full moons since I believe that Schierke said that spirits are the strongest in that period.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between the child seizing control of the body and Griffith having to relinquish control of it because the child's power is too strong on full moons. Those sound like one scenario to me.

The child doesn't need to visit its parents every full moon. No sea gods are on the horizon for Guts and co at the moment, I'd presume. Afterall, this whole thing is a fairly recent phenomenon. Vritannis bay was probably 2-3 months ago. Where was the child before that point? And do we really expect prompt, monthly visits from the boy, even if all that's on the menu for danger is a few specters? All of its visits heretofore have been to intervene in life or death scenarios to protect its parents.

I know it's tempting to get bogged down in the logistics of how and why, but I think the fundamental piece to understanding this phenomenon is recalling what happened back on the Hill of Swords. When the child took control of Griffith's body momentarily to protect Casca, that is likely in essence what's happening with the boy, on a grander scale. Through the power of the full moon, he can do more than merely momentarily control the body. He can reach out across the planet in a form suitable to rejoining his family and protect his parents.

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As to why he would do that, well it could be a bunch of things. We saw that Griffith is still curious about Guts, as he was seen watching him in Vritannis, and in this chapter something similar happens with Rickert.So if he wants to keep up, so to speak, with Guts  then what better way to send his own son.

That's quite a stretch. Griffith was there to confront Ganishka. He just happened to arrive as Guts and the others left, and he and Guts had a momentary glimpse of each other. Anyway, if Griffith wanted to spy on the group, it'd be utterly child's play to do so his resources. And the method you propose would be more like a charity mission than an infultration that he'd genuinely benefit from.

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However the child was seen helping his parents so it's more likely that Griffith has to let him out once in a while, to meet his parents since he yearns for them. And during the full moon it could be that the child becomes more powerful, so it becomes harder for Griffith to contain him.

Yep.

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I also find the theory that the boy could be an avatar of the Flower Storm king to be really interesting, and he uses that form because it could be familiar to Casca at the very least. She sure cares about the boy and was worried that he wasn't there anymore, but I feel it would make more sense that she'd act that way if it's her own son, rather than just a manifestation.

Particularly since her reaction to the boy aligns perfectly to her reaction with the demon child previously. For it to have been the elf king's avatar posing as their son all along would end up being quite an awkward betrayal, regardless of the intent. It just doesn't sound natural at all, to me.

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Well I tried to wrap my head around it a bit, right now we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle,so it's kinda hard to come up with a definite answer.

We don't have all the pieces, it's true. But I think the theory Aaz came up with 9 years ago is pretty sound, and has withstood the test of time and the slow release of additional information along the way.

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And sorry if I sounded definite in my first post, I was simply thinking about that possiblity, it wasn't in anyway an elaborate answer. Just me caught in my thought process.

It's fine, but you just arrived in the thread with a definitive-sounding statement after we had just finished an involved back and forth about the subject.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 01:47:37 AM by Walter »
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2015, 05:28:15 AM »

Well I tried to wrap my head around it a bit, right now we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle,so it's kinda hard to come up with a definite answer. And sorry if I sounded definite in my first post, I was simply thinking about that possiblity, it wasn't in anyway an elaborate answer. Just me caught in my thought process.

That's why you should check what other people have said before posting in a thread. Besides being the courteous and respectful thing to do, it helps inform your reflection so that you can build on the previous discussions rather than simply repeat them.

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2015, 06:08:53 AM »
I think the panels are too small to tell whether he takes on an astral form or not. Could be, or his corporeal self could also be traveling through the astral world, which would make sense given the whole Fantasia thing.

It could also just be that we're seeing him from the astral POV in that shot to emphasize the nature of that travel (supporting that idea is the moon disappears from sight, which could be a style choice so we can see the boy clearly). Overall though, I feel like astral/physical distinctions matter less and less here, and certainly aren't reliable qualifiers for what's probable, let alone possible.

Ehhhh, I don't buy the Elfhelm connexion Schierke pulled out of her hat. It makes sense from her perspective, but there are way too many things associating the boy to Griffith for it to be an elf matter in my opinion. Besides, that would establish the king's reach as enormous and make it weird that the group had to travel to Elfhelm while the boy came to them before they even got to Vritannis. Plus when the boy leaves the ship in episode 331, he goes in the other direction, not towards Elfhelm (unless the Sea Horse is dramatically off course). There's more but basically it doesn't hold water to me.

Sure, let's not let three pages worth of exposition from one of the most knowledgeable characters in the series affect an unassailable** theory! :schierke:<(I get no respect.)

While I agree Schierke's working with incomplete information, I certainly don't think her perspective should be ignored. Especially the revelation that the King of the Flower Storm apparently could have such enormous reach. I mean, this shit's incredible: "They say that some of the elves have enormous power, that they're able to decipher time-transgressive fates and to use the truth of hidden secrets, transcending space. I think he might not just be something like a messenger but an incarnation of the King of the Flower Storm." Again, pretty heady and thought-provoking stuff however we interpret it, and given the source there's no reason to think the King of the Flower Storm couldn't have a hand in the boy's fate, which isn't mutually exclusive with the aforementioned connection to Griffith. It's also not like Miura to throw out a lot of misleading information or red herrings, and even if that's the case then who's to say what information is false; so either there's something to this, which isn't hard to rectify with the established Griffith/Child theory, or he's using it to set up the idea of a true messenger/incarnation to come or just give us more info on the King of the Flower Storm (still, he could have done that any time, and without directly linking the boy to the King). Either way, even if Schierke is wrong about the boy's origins, it certainly gives us a nice analysis of the sort of power he's showing and at least implies there's more to it than what we previously thought.

However there's one unexplained thing about the boy that we didn't mention and it's what sticks out the most in the current theory as far as I'm concerned: the fact his power comes without evil. He doesn't make the Brand bleed, and Schierke doesn't feel evil in his Od. That's the bigger mystery to me, assuming his power is somehow tied to that of Femto. Maybe the Beherit Apostle made his wish (to be a real boy, of course) come true in this "perfect world" of his. ;)

That's one of the things I like about the idea of the boy not literally being a manifestation or transformation of Griffith's physical form. It wouldn't be much different from how the demon child used to appear to Guts and Casca before, except now he's somehow purified or reborn himself. Either way, Zodd Squad Investigations (or escort service) is on the case.

I know it's tempting to get bogged down in the logistics of how and why, but I think the fundamental piece to understanding this phenomenon is recalling what happened back on the Hill of Swords. When the child took control of Griffith's body momentarily to protect Casca, that is likely in essence what's happening with the boy, on a grander scale. Through the power of the full moon, he can do more than merely momentarily control the body. He can reach out across the planet in a form suitable to rejoining his family and protect his parents.

I think everyone can agree on that, like you say, without getting bogged down on details.

Particularly since her reaction to the boy aligns perfectly to her reaction with the demon child previously. For it to have been the elf king's avatar posing as their son all along would end up being quite an awkward betrayal, regardless of the intent. It just doesn't sound natural at all, to me.

But what if the King was using his ability to "decipher time-transgressive fates and to use the truth of hidden secrets, transcending space" to allow the spirit of Casca's actual son to "be a messenger," despite otherwise being tethered to the evilest man on the planet? Sounds exactly like the kind of powers that would make that possible for the Elf King to arrange. Also, this just has me geeked for the King himself, the only comparable force sounds like... :idea:

We don't have all the pieces, it's true. But I think the theory Aaz came up with 9 years ago is pretty sound, and has withstood the test of time and the slow release of additional information along the way.

Agreed, but we shouldn't dismiss or stop incorporating new information, especially if it's potentially contradictory; if for no other reason than to bolster the strength of the theory. :griffnotevil:
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 06:21:44 AM by Griffith »

Offline Theozilla

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2015, 08:51:52 AM »
You mean like an astral projection? That actually complicates things. The boy has form and weight. Also, he astrally projects himself to rescue Guts from the sea god. Furthermore if he were a projection, Zodd wouldn't need to be around the rocky cliffs outside Vritannis (the boy also leaves during that time by climbing up a rocky cliff), presumably ferrying him back and forth, before the World Spiral Tree provided a more efficient form of travel. If you're proposing he creates an entirely new body every full moon, well, what allegiance would Zodd have to him?

I'm not saying we know 100% how this all works, but I've yet to encounter a more convincing alternative, given all the wrinkles present.
I meant an entirely new physical body manifests/split off from Griffith. As for what allegiance/concern Zodd would have if the Moonlight Boy had a separate physical existence from Griffith during full moons is that I still would envision their relationship to be one a shared lifeforce. To use other pieces of media as examples, such as the film DragonHeart and the manga/anime Inuyasha, in both of those stories there were two characters (Draco the dragon & Einon the evil king for DragonHeart and the main antagonist Naraku and a being he split off from himself known as The Infant/Mōryōmaru for Inuyasha) that each had a separate physical existence from each other but both shared a mutual "heart" that was contained/possessed by one member of each of the pairs (Draco and The Infant/Mōryōmaru) and if harm came to the individual containing the "heat" it could/would be fatal to the other member. So if the Moonlight Boy had a separate physical existence from Griffith during the full moon I could envision/sepculate the relationship being something like that (with the Moonlight Boy being the one containing the "heart" of the two since Griffith's current physical vessel was originally transformed from the Moonlight Boy/Demon Child's body).

The actual way in which the boy manifests in regard to Griffith has always been the biggest unknown, and the part we have least speculated about aside from the idea he might just transform. There are numerous ways in which it might occur that would work with the information we already have.
I agree, I was just proposing one alternative way that could also possibly work (based on other media I've seen) in addition to the Griffith physically transforming in the Moonlight Boy method/theory.

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2015, 06:28:03 PM »
I agree, I was just proposing one alternative way that could also possibly work (based on other media I've seen) in addition to the Griffith physically transforming in the Moonlight Boy method/theory.

Sure, it's just that it's nothing new. The idea of a split between them was proposed way back then. It was actually the default theory before the possibility of a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde scenario was introduced.

It could also just be that we're seeing him from the astral POV in that shot to emphasize the nature of that travel

Yeah, could be.

Sure, let's not let three pages worth of exposition from one of the most knowledgeable characters in the series affect an unassailable** theory! :schierke:<(I get no respect.)

That comment feels disingenuous and opportunitistic, especially considering you're the first to agree she doesn't have the full picture, and are simultaneously ready to not let hundreds of pages of astral/physical exposition get in the way of determining what's probable or not in the story...

While I agree Schierke's working with incomplete information, I certainly don't think her perspective should be ignored.

Given the available information, I have no problem dismissing her guess that the Boy is really the Elf King in disguise. Meanwhile, what her dialog tells us about the King of the Flower Storm is interesting beyond the boy himself.

Again, pretty heady and thought-provoking stuff however we interpret it

It's a very cool line, but personally it didn't fundamentally change my perception of the character. We already knew from the Skull Knight and Schierke that the King of the Flower Storm was incredibly powerful. Now we have some details about possible abilities ("it is said" that "some of the elves" can sense possible futures and travel through astral shortcuts), but the real heavy stuff is yet to come.

given the source there's no reason to think the King of the Flower Storm couldn't have a hand in the boy's fate, which isn't mutually exclusive with the aforementioned connection to Griffith. [...] what if the King was using his ability to "decipher time-transgressive fates and to use the truth of hidden secrets, transcending space" to allow the spirit of Casca's actual son to "be a messenger," despite otherwise being tethered to the evilest man on the planet? Sounds exactly like the kind of powers that would make that possible for the Elf King to arrange.

Actually, Schierke is clearly not sure of herself in those two pages; she's guessing. And I'm not convinced it isn't mutually exclusive. Schierke's eventual guess is that the boy is the King of the Flower Storm himself, and that doesn't seem to be the case to me. Also, the specific powers she describes don't sound to me like they could allow the Elf King to split the Moonlight Boy apart from Griffith, a member of the God Hand. And it's not what she's hinting at either, she just thinks the Elf King could be appearing in front of them to help them. In that regard, her hypothesis is completely wrong. Finally, he'd be a strange messenger considering all he seems to care about is being with his parents. Maybe there's a satisfying way in which this would work, but I haven't found it.

It's also not like Miura to throw out a lot of misleading information or red herrings

Easy for you to say, you haven't spent the last 10 years explaining to people that no, Guts is not the Falcon of Darkness. And I'd say the only misleading information would be Schierke's guess, since everything else points in the direction of the Griffith connexion. To get back to the beginning of this discussion (the part actually relevant to episode 341), I don't think seeing a panel of Griffith standing in presence of the full moon casts any doubt on the connexion between him and the boy. Just like the boy showing up on the solitary island, a place Zodd couldn't have possibly brought him to, didn't cast doubt on the fact Zodd had been there on the beach.

or he's using it to [...] give us more info on the King of the Flower Storm (still, he could have done that any time, and without directly linking the boy to the King).

Episode 331 feels appropriate for that to me, just like it has Guts mulling what the Skull Knight said about the Berserk's armor and about Casca's wishes. As for using the mystery of the boy to talk about the king, it just seems like a convenient and clever narrative trick.

That's one of the things I like about the idea of the boy not literally being a manifestation or transformation of Griffith's physical form. It wouldn't be much different from how the demon child used to appear to Guts and Casca before, except now he's somehow purified or reborn himself.

As a reminder, Griffith was not "reborn" out of thin air. Femto was incarnated into a new vessel: the boy's body. That's why it makes sense for them to share said body.

Offline JMP

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2015, 10:42:38 PM »
Thanks for the episode link and summary, Aazealh!  :ubik:

Been fun reading through the discussion about the moonlight boy. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all unfolds.

Anyway, Daiba expects them to be out of danger once they take off, and is surprised to see that "the crumpled rug can fly".
Oh my gosh, that is too funny!  :ganishka:

Daiba really gets to shine in this episode! I guess the rats and snakes could present a significant problem for Rakshas, especially with the large numbers of them that come streaming out. He's infested with snakes binding up bits of his cloak body and rats gnawing away at his fabric! Maybe he was able to eventually suffocate and/or crush them, though by enveloping them. In the shot of him flying through the air his long, coiling body reminds me a bit of a traditional Eastern-style dragon.

I like the Garuda, too. They look like some kind of cross between a pterodactyl and a Venus fly trap plant to me. LOL I wonder if Daiba had more than one from his days as Ganishka's right hand man or if he obtained/bred more later on.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 02:47:33 AM by JMP »
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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2015, 11:02:07 PM »
That comment feels disingenuous and opportunitistic, especially considering you're the first to agree she doesn't have the full picture, and are simultaneously ready to not let hundreds of pages of astral/physical exposition get in the way of determining what's probable or not in the story...

Well, I take that very seriously because, if it’s become at all unclear, I trust your knowledge and judgment more than anybody here, so if that’s how it feels to you I do apologize. I was attempting to be facetious and provocative while challenging convention. Thus, why I also conceded Schierke’s limitation while considering the new information she offers. As for the astral/physical nature of the boy and its relevance, I was merely pointing out that he may be defying conventions himself (and they could have changed between encounters) and it's almost like anything goes, but fair point. Anyway, none of this falls under the normal or obvious, even by astral standards; including the prospect of Griffith physically turning into a little boy and back again, even if that checks a wonderful number of boxes. After all, even it’s still got holes requiring leaps like, as you graciously pointed out, why proximity to that same body doesn’t affect Guts and Casca? Unless Femto/Griffith’s Od IS existing elsewhere at the time... or something, I’m just spit balling here. What do you think?

It's a very cool line, but personally it didn't fundamentally change my perception of the character. We already knew from the Skull Knight and Schierke that the King of the Flower Storm was incredibly powerful. Now we have some details about possible abilities ("it is said" that "some of the elves" can sense possible futures and travel through astral shortcuts), but the real heavy stuff is yet to come.

Guts telling a monster to fuck off is a cool line, that was pretty significant, at least to me, even though we already knew the King was powerful before. And while there's certainly more to come, then why doubt his reach or Schierke’s academic knowledge of it? Her information on the boy is certainly incomplete, but there’s no reason to think she’s completely wrong about everything there, especially given her level of expertise (either way it can still inform us about the nature of the boy, such as him perhaps being a similar sort of incarnation, just not the one she thinks). It’s also of note since traveling through astral shortcuts seems like precisely what we see the boy doing afterward. Now, this coincidence could be what’s leading to her confusion, but it’s not improbable that there could be a legitimate connection, especially when the idea is being waved in our face (of course just writing that made me suspicious).

Actually, Schierke is clearly not sure of herself in those two pages; she's guessing. And I'm not convinced it isn't mutually exclusive. Schierke's eventual guess is that the boy is the King of the Flower Storm himself, and that doesn't seem to be the case to me.

I like her guesses better than most people’s facts (trivia for anyone who can say where that reference is from). And while she does guess it could be the King, her initial guess is that he’s some sort of emissary. Maybe she was right the first time.

Also, the specific powers she describes don't sound to me like they could allow the Elf King to split the Moonlight Boy apart from Griffith, a member of the God Hand.

Sure, but why not? We can't really know at this point, and to be fair, it's all so theoretical I shouldn't have even said it sounds like it could allow that, but the description of the extent of those powers is almost like a blank check so it's hard to say either way.

And it's not what she's hinting at either, she just thinks the Elf King could be appearing in front of them to help them. In that regard, her hypothesis is completely wrong.

I concede that one way or another she’s likely wrong somehow, but I guess what I’m grasping at is, exactly how, and, why she’s wrong and what purpose this information is meant to serve instead if we're not meant to take it at face value. Are we being thrown off the scent, is it setting up something else, another messenger or exposition on the King as we've discussed, or is it only food for thought? I just found it interesting how much the episode went in on that, particularly the dramatic focus on her during that ultimate "revelation" she thinks it could be the King.

Finally, he'd be a strange messenger considering all he seems to care about is being with his parents.

Not so strange that Schierke didn't get the idea he could have a connection to Elfhelm. Again, we don’t know the nature of the King or his agenda or how he sees things; it could be precisely what the doctor ordered. Much as the demon child’s connection to Griffith pulls us in that direction, the connection Casca has to the child and the prospective significance the King has to her, and now potentially the boy, draws me in that direction as well. Again, highly theoretical and not nearly so simple and elegant as the Griffith connection, but thus why I’m entertaining how these ideas work in tandem and offering them up to you for vivisection.

Easy for you to say, you haven't spent the last 10 years explaining to people that no, Guts is not the Falcon of Darkness.

Touché (and I’m truly sorry =)! But hey, I know who in the story was saying that, how much weight it was really given, and who these people are you had to explain it to (again, very sorry =). So, on that note, was Miura really being misleading or were those guys just easily confused? Anyway, I hope this is at least better than doing that, if only slightly. :griffnotevil:

And I'd say the only misleading information would be Schierke's guess, since everything else points in the direction of the Griffith connexion.

Well, just as your not ruling out the boy manifesting separately, I'm not denying the Griffith connection nor saying I think it's really the King either; just that connections to both aren't necessarily mutually exclusive and I'm giving Schierke's words some due eight here, especially since there's conflicting information.

I don't think seeing a panel of Griffith standing in presence of the full moon casts any doubt on the connexion between him and the boy.

Nor do I, not on the connection, but it is instructive to an admittedly minor extent; that he doesn't automatically, involuntarily become the boy in the full moon light. Obviously, the alternative would have been affirming in the extreme, but the absence of that doesn't take anything away from the theory, just leaves some room still for alternatives regarding it.

As a reminder, Griffith was not "reborn" out of thin air.Femto was incarnated into a new vessel: the boy's body. That's why it makes sense for them to share said body.

That’s what admittedly makes it an extremely attractive idea, a complete realization of a connection that has to be true in some fashion, unless the moonlight boy really has nothing to do with the demon child (which would be insane), but in what fashion they share it and how it works is still unknown and debatable at this point.


P.S. Sorry for dragging you into an unnecessary quote post trench war on a subject we actually largely agree on, but I didn't want to seem like I was glossing over or ignoring your points either. Also, if I just nodded along all the time it wouldn't make for much of an interesting conversation on my end. =)

Offline flagawax

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2015, 01:52:03 PM »
Thx for the episode ..

Incredible  "Rickert Man" :rickert: ... after the "Machine Arrow Gun", now the "Fatal Bazooka" awesome guy ..
The last scene remind me E.T. with the moon and the bicycle ...

A question (maybe answered) : You explain, rats and snakes distract Rakshas, Just distract or afraid Rakshas ? It's not easy to see in the picture if the animals "tickle" Rakshas or enter inside his blacksuit ...

Byebye Luka
FORCE ET HONNEUR

Offline ApostleBob

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2015, 03:30:53 PM »
I agree with Griffith to keep a skeptical view, the Moonlight boy theory on principle.  It's still an incredibly strong theory, and I think it's more than likely to be correct, but Miura might take us a different direction.  He's done it before with Ganishka's apostle form, and Rakshas's whereabouts after the merging of the worlds.  Still, I'd be surprised if he doesn't use the opportunity to tie Griffith to their child in a dramatic way like this. It's ripe for conflict if killing Griffith means killing his son. 

But on another level, who cares if we see Griffith with a full moon. The theory isn't really contingent on Griffith transforming every full moon.  Only that it's his only opportunity to do so. Since Femto's been incarnated in the boys body, how many full moons have there been in world where we don't see the moonlight boy appear? Plenty. Guts was protecting Casca alone for what appears to be weeks after the Hill of Swords and after the rest of the group showed up, it's implied that they've been traveling together for what appears to be months.

Perhaps there's another factor to consider as to why the boy appears some times and not others. We know the moon is a factor. Perhaps it's tied to his parents being in grave danger. Perhaps somehow it's tied to Guts wearing the berserker armor and giving off a new Od, as it only started to occur after this point.  Don't know.  But we at least now know it isn't mandatory with a full moon.   

On a side note, after re-reading this episode, I'm going to double down on my assertion that Rakshas isn't doing much for a long time. After the snakes and rats get on him, Silat, Daiba, and Rickert hold a full conversation for pages before they hop on the Garuda. I know it was mentioned that this was supposed to take place really quickly, but it sure doesn't appear that way. Maybe I'm missing something in the translation though. I'm just not sure how these snakes are holding him down.

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2015, 06:53:02 PM »
A question (maybe answered) : You explain, rats and snakes distract Rakshas, Just distract or afraid Rakshas ? It's not easy to see in the picture if the animals "tickle" Rakshas or enter inside his blacksuit ...

I doubt he was truly afraid, more taken aback and distracted, plus even rats and snakes can be a force when there's hundreds like that (death by a thousand paper cuts). I admit it’s fun to read his reaction like, “EEEEEEEK!” though. Also, adding rats and snakes to his already creepy body makes for maximum skin crawlege. I don’t know who I felt worse for, him or the vermin.

I agree with Griffith to keep a skeptical view, the Moonlight boy theory on principle.  It's still an incredibly strong theory, and I think it's more than likely to be correct, but Miura might take us a different direction.

Just to clarify since I think my position looks more fortified or extreme from debating the finer points with Aaz, I’m not even saying to be skeptical of it, it just shouldn’t take up all the oxygen in the room or be accepted as dogma at the expense of probable alternatives. That's not even really the problem though, I think it’s more that we’re so sensitive to misinformation getting out we don’t want to see false assumptions like, “Griffith standing in the full moon disproves the boy theory” get any traction, so we’ll more vigorously promote its obvious merits that people may be overlooking.

He's done it before with Ganishka's apostle form

Speaking of alternatives, Ganishka almost always comes to mind when I’m considering ways the boy could manifest besides physically taking over and controlling the body (I like how the “body” or “vessel” is almost a separate character now =). Nothing I can quite put my finger on, but just how seemingly strange and unique his own powers were. It’s interesting to imagine Griffith sweating it out at home while the moonlight boy is on the town, not unlike Ganishka in his tent when Guts and Zodd pierced his fog form, scarring him. BTW…

It's ripe for conflict if killing Griffith means killing his son. 

Yeah, that is the obvious major dramatic conflict this would potentially add (and another point for the boy literally being the body, since it ups the drama and complications further and begs the question if can they be separated), but what if it’s even worse, what if Griffith/Femto is actually invincible… save for the boy? :sad:

and Rakshas's whereabouts after the merging of the worlds.

Uh, I think I was the only one going in a different direction with that one. The WRONG direction. :ganishka:

On a side note, after re-reading this episode, I'm going to double down on my assertion that Rakshas isn't doing much for a long time.

 :rakshas:"EEEEEEK!"

I wouldn't worry about it too much, like I said he had his hands full if nothing else, and again, it's not like this was actually desperate times for him where he just had to kill them so fast. They were literally throwing everything they had at him in that fight and to Rakshas it was probably more like he was being tickled, and up until getting a rocketed in the face, he was still in hot (no pun intended) pursuit like nothing had happened. Even with that I would guess his pride is the only thing permanently damaged.

Oh yeah, and it's a story! Sometimes there's creative liberties taken with time and space for dramatic effect (a notable example is when Guts got the Berserk's Armor, and Miura even added some material for clarification). It's like when a 30 second bomb timer takes 3 minutes of screen time to wind down; dramatic relativity. =)

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2015, 11:34:19 AM »
Unless Femto/Griffith’s Od IS existing elsewhere at the time... or something, I’m just spit balling here. What do you think?

I have considered that possibility before (Femto being "ousted" from the body for a time), but I find it hard to reconcile with the panel of the boy's astral form in episode 327. Beyond that, there's also a certain coldness to his demeanor that I feel connects him to Griffith. Still, like I said before, this is the one part we really don't have any clues about, so... could be.

Guts telling a monster to fuck off is a cool line, that was pretty significant, at least to me, even though we already knew the King was powerful before. And while there's certainly more to come, then why doubt his reach or Schierke’s academic knowledge of it? Her information on the boy is certainly incomplete, but there’s no reason to think she’s completely wrong about everything there, especially given her level of expertise (either way it can still inform us about the nature of the boy, such as him perhaps being a similar sort of incarnation, just not the one she thinks). It’s also of note since traveling through astral shortcuts seems like precisely what we see the boy doing afterward. Now, this coincidence could be what’s leading to her confusion, but it’s not improbable that there could be a legitimate connection, especially when the idea is being waved in our face (of course just writing that made me suspicious).

Well I'm just saying she's wording this in a way that indicates she's unsure of herself. And it's clear from the dialog that her supposition was born from the desire to connect the boy, an unknown yet very powerful being, to another very powerful being she knows of. To explain why this unknown being would randomly come to aid them. Deciphering time-transgressive fates was her way of explaining how the boy could know who they were and where to find them while they haven't met the king yet, and using the hidden truths of the world to travel would have allowed him to come to them from far away. However, how does that explain the fact Casca is actually the one who comes to find the boy everytime?

Both on the beach and on the island, she came to him as soon as he appeared... Feeling him in her Brand, like she's always done since he was born. And how did he travel to the beach before the World-Spiral Tree (that stands right next to Falconia and that Femto made happen) came to be? And then it means Zodd was just there as a coincidence, and didn't act because...? I think her interpretation just has too many inconsistencies. And while the idea that the King of the Flower Storm could act like a catalyst in the appearance of the boy is interesting, I feel like it's not directly supported by what she says in those pages because she doesn't account for the Griffith factor.

I concede that one way or another she’s likely wrong somehow, but I guess what I’m grasping at is, exactly how, and, why she’s wrong and what purpose this information is meant to serve instead if we're not meant to take it at face value. Are we being thrown off the scent, is it setting up something else, another messenger or exposition on the King as we've discussed, or is it only food for thought? I just found it interesting how much the episode went in on that, particularly the dramatic focus on her during that ultimate "revelation" she thinks it could be the King.

Now that's a good question. I think there's several ways in which it's interesting. First off, I do believe it serves as a bit of a diversion regarding the boy, if only because the careful reader will have had a clue about him for quite a while by then. I also don't mind that characters aren't always infallible, it adds a bit of realism. Second, it's a reminder that the Elf King is super cool and a way to build up hype (now imagine if he's just about as serious as Puck is most of the time), which I find that episode to be doing a lot. It also has something about Farnese's feelings for Guts, the Berserk's armor, Casca's state and why she's in that state, what her desires might be... It's almost a recap of all the cool things to come.

Third, we do learn that the Elf King can basically sense possible futures, which will likely play a big role going forward. It will probably inform Guts' decision about his future course of action and might provide the impetus for him to not stay in Elfhelm (and additionally, it might help explain some of the Skull Knight's own supernatural insights). Fourth, I think Schierke's mistake here provides a good reason for them to ask the king about the boy directly, and for him to lay down the truth (or part of it) in return. Fifth, we also learn that he knows how to travel through the astral world (not necessarily to do so himself, but to allow others to), and while that's not exactly a big reveal I think it's preparing us for the fact the group will not return to the mainland by sea, but through magical means.

Nor do I, not on the connection, but it is instructive to an admittedly minor extent; that he doesn't automatically, involuntarily become the boy in the full moon light. Obviously, the alternative would have been affirming in the extreme, but the absence of that doesn't take anything away from the theory, just leaves some room still for alternatives regarding it.

I completely agree. It is a clue, even if it doesn't help us much. I actually find it very interesting how it's done too, with Griffith looking in that direction but the reader not being able to tell what it is he's looking at exactly. And the escapees, the moon and the tree branches all being in the same frame... I don't believe Miura did that by coincidence.

P.S. Sorry for dragging you into an unnecessary quote post trench war on a subject we actually largely agree on, but I didn't want to seem like I was glossing over or ignoring your points either. Also, if I just nodded along all the time it wouldn't make for much of an interesting conversation on my end. =)

I do resent it a bit... I don't have time for this stuff anymore! :ganishka:
__________________________________

I agree with Griffith to keep a skeptical view, the Moonlight boy theory on principle.  It's still an incredibly strong theory, and I think it's more than likely to be correct, but Miura might take us a different direction.  He's done it before with Ganishka's apostle form, and Rakshas's whereabouts after the merging of the worlds.

There's not much to be skeptical about concerning the general theory, it's just that we don't know all the details yet. Ganishka is a completely different case, and Rakshas is a non-event.

I'd be surprised if he doesn't use the opportunity to tie Griffith to their child in a dramatic way like this. It's ripe for conflict if killing Griffith means killing his son. But on another level, who cares if we see Griffith with a full moon. The theory isn't really contingent on Griffith transforming every full moon.  Only that it's his only opportunity to do so. Since Femto's been incarnated in the boys body, how many full moons have there been in world where we don't see the moonlight boy appear? Plenty. Guts was protecting Casca alone for what appears to be weeks after the Hill of Swords and after the rest of the group showed up, it's implied that they've been traveling together for what appears to be months. Perhaps there's another factor to consider as to why the boy appears some times and not others.

Of course. All of this is part of why this episode's final panels don't impact the theory much.

Perhaps it's tied to his parents being in grave danger. Perhaps somehow it's tied to Guts wearing the berserker armor and giving off a new Od, as it only started to occur after this point.

It's possible, although it's worth noting that when the boy first appeared, his parents weren't in immediate danger. It only came later on during the night.

On a side note, after re-reading this episode, I'm going to double down on my assertion that Rakshas isn't doing much for a long time. After the snakes and rats get on him, Silat, Daiba, and Rickert hold a full conversation for pages before they hop on the Garuda. I know it was mentioned that this was supposed to take place really quickly, but it sure doesn't appear that way. Maybe I'm missing something in the translation though.

I don't know what more there is to add to my earlier reply to you. There are three pages of dialog when Daiba appears, but it's pretty short talk and I think the pages convey a sense of urgency. Plus at that point, Rakshas looks more curious than anything. Then Daiba unleashes all he has, and after that they're quickly gone, in three more pages. And Rakshas gets after them pretty much immediately.

A question (maybe answered) : You explain, rats and snakes distract Rakshas, Just distract or afraid Rakshas ? It's not easy to see in the picture if the animals "tickle" Rakshas or enter inside his blacksuit ...

I already answered that question earlier on. They provide a distraction but more importantly restrain his movements by coiling around his body and various appendages (while the rats nibble at it I guess).

Offline Mage

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2015, 05:25:40 PM »
I had always hoped Silat would eventually ally with Guts (which may still end up happening), but allying with Rickert and Daiba and then traveling back to their homeland is really exciting.

Something I only mention in case people have missed it, but Erika's the one who stops to go get the rocket launcher from the wagon. Clever girl.

For all her amusing moments of panic, she's been courageous with all the the things she's seen and gone through. I imagine she will become much more complementary to Rickert in the future. Looking forward to seeing how capable of a character she turns into.

 
-

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2015, 05:58:01 PM »
For all her amusing moments of panic, she's been courageous with all the the things she's seen and gone through. I imagine she will become much more complementary to Rickert in the future. Looking forward to seeing how capable of a character she turns into.

Yeah I think she's pretty badass all things considered.

Offline Mangetsu

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2015, 07:57:35 PM »
I really like what Rickert has done with his new invention, it's somewhat a combination of most of the stuff that he has built before.
He has been a badass this whole section, from slapping Griffith :rickert: to using his own rocket launcher on Rakshas.

That last page of Griffith staring at the whole scenario is really fascinating to me. Again not seeing his facial expression makes it just more mysterious. Just like in episode 338,  when we only got to see the lower part of his face, not really telling much to the reader.

I hope that at the beginning of the next episode,  we will see a short closure to Rakshas failure in assassinating Rickert. It would be nice to see his final thoughts.

Can't wait to see Guts and the others. Monthly Berserk is too good  :badbone:

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2015, 08:13:13 AM »
I have considered that possibility before (Femto being "ousted" from the body for a time), but I find it hard to reconcile with the panel of the boy's astral form in episode 327. Beyond that, there's also a certain coldness to his demeanor that I feel connects him to Griffith. Still, like I said before, this is the one part we really don't have any clues about, so... could be.

Yeah, the way he stares and doesn't completely seem to connect with everyone gives him an alieness like Griffith, though the astral appearance in 327 is interesting because it's almost too coincidental. It makes one associate him even more with Griffith, but beyond that there's not a clear reason his astral form should have some aspect of Griffith in it beyond coincidental resemblance. It's actually problematic as we're discussing, but yet there it is. I wonder if it's just purely a signal to the audience with no practical explanation like Griffith's od being mixed with the boy's, or does it mean the boy can completely suppress and contain his evil? That'd be a pretty big deal.

However, how does that explain the fact Casca is actually the one who comes to find the boy everytime?

Both on the beach and on the island, she came to him as soon as he appeared... Feeling him in her Brand, like she's always done since he was born. And how did he travel to the beach before the World-Spiral Tree (that stands right next to Falconia and that Femto made happen) came to be? And then it means Zodd was just there as a coincidence, and didn't act because...? I think her interpretation just has too many inconsistencies. And while the idea that the King of the Flower Storm could act like a catalyst in the appearance of the boy is interesting, I feel like it's not directly supported by what she says in those pages because she doesn't account for the Griffith factor.

Not directly, no, but a lot of what we know about the boy is indirect and deciphered by reading into things unseen (almost by the forces they exert and that are exerted on them in the story; it's the equivalent of studying distant galaxies in Berserk theory terms =). And, though it's admittedly even more theoretical beyond just details, the Flower King (:ganishka:) aiding/enabling the child would answer those questions while incorporating Schierke's stated theory, which isn't a bad angle to consider, especially since we have to parse and reinterpret her information either way.

First off, I do believe it serves as a bit of a diversion regarding the boy, if only because the careful reader will have had a clue about him for quite a while by then.

But what if THAT was the diversion, maaaahn!? :magni:


"They were just ROCKS, Aaz!!"


I think you'd become an assassin at that point! :rakshas: Seriously though, it's going to take a lot more than Schierke's theory to credibly suggest everything we observed before is just a coincidence.

Fourth, I think Schierke's mistake here provides a good reason for them to ask the king about the boy directly, and for him to lay down the truth (or part of it) in return.

Ding ding ding ding! Why Schierke Said That for 400, Alex. Love it, and I wouldn't mind either if the King of the Flower Storm was something of an oddball.

I completely agree. It is a clue, even if it doesn't help us much. I actually find it very interesting how it's done too, with Griffith looking in that direction but the reader not being able to tell what it is he's looking at exactly. And the escapees, the moon and the tree branches all being in the same frame... I don't believe Miura did that by coincidence.

To bring it full circle on the question of their ods and add a little more speculation... would Griffith let them go under other circumstances, or was it a bad case of moonlight boy toxoplasmosis affecting him? It makes sense that the boy could interfere with and influence Griffith beyond his body (we've really already seen it). Can the boy fundamentally soften Griffith and his evil, even stifle it as the boy might be doing when he's out in the moonlight? Is the boy a weakness, or potentially a redeemer? ... That's right, this has all been building to another Griffith "Griffith Redemption" theory!


I do resent it a bit... I don't have time for this stuff anymore! :ganishka:

Well, I tried to make it easy on you (and myself =) this time by doing the normal thing and not addressing what I accept, agree with, or otherwise don't have a comment for. It doesn't seem to have helped much, at least me, as I'm still writing at 2am with a 9am podcast call looming...

Ganishka is a completely different case

I'd be curious to hear your take on its relevancy overall, but I guess I just did. =) I do think he definitely added something unique to the astral canon that may apply here, and that was even before he changed it and made the impossible possible.

It's possible, although it's worth noting that when the boy first appeared, his parents weren't in immediate danger. It only came later on during the night.
Time-transgressive fate deciphering if I ever heard it, man! :void: :idea:

Good point though, unless the boy knew what was coming, he doesn't just show up when they're in danger (much as they're often in danger yet he doesn't appear, though the moon is obviously a paramount factor there). Here's hoping when we switch back to Guts' perspective we get a sighting of the boy that directly ties him to Griffith here, though just his appearing again consecutively with the full moon would be telling. Will he do it every full moon? Would he appear in Elfhelm? Would that show Griffith where it was to attack? :ganishka:

I had always hoped Silat would eventually ally with Guts (which may still end up happening), but allying with Rickert and Daiba and then traveling back to their homeland is really exciting.

And it certainly paves the way for an alliance with Guts as well, so all the more exciting on that front.

I hope that at the beginning of the next episode,  we will see a short closure to Rakshas failure in assassinating Rickert. It would be nice to see his final thoughts.

It would be cool to see the aftermath, especially citywide, but typically we don't get to see the character debriefing, if at all, until at least the next time... when the other Apostle lieutenants will be busting his balls for getting blown out of the sky by a gawky teenager. :zodd:
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 08:41:43 AM by Griffith »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2015, 11:28:53 AM »
Yeah, the way he stares and doesn't completely seem to connect with everyone gives him an alieness like Griffith, though the astral appearance in 327 is interesting because it's almost too coincidental. It makes one associate him even more with Griffith, but beyond that there's not a clear reason his astral form should have some aspect of Griffith in it beyond coincidental resemblance. It's actually problematic as we're discussing, but yet there it is. I wonder if it's just purely a signal to the audience with no practical explanation like Griffith's od being mixed with the boy's, or does it mean the boy can completely suppress and contain his evil? That'd be a pretty big deal.

It could be interpreted a few different ways. Pushing our theoretical knowledge of the Berserk world to its limits, it's not impossible that two souls could share more than a corporeal body, with the boy's body of light reflecting that. Since the evil is bound to the soul, it could work. More vaguely, it's also possible that at some point the boy took something from Griffith on the astral level, which would explain his "superior being" status and also that fleeting resemblance at that specific moment. Either way I don't think Miura left it there merely as a visual clue. To me it's a hint that they're pretty deeply connected.

Not directly, no, but a lot of what we know about the boy is indirect and deciphered by reading into things unseen (almost by the forces they exert and that are exerted on them in the story; it's the equivalent of studying distant galaxies in Berserk theory terms =).

Actually, I think that comparison is most appropriate for the Idea of Evil. :idea:

I wouldn't mind either if the King of the Flower Storm was something of an oddball.

By virtue of being an elf, I can't believe he won't be in a way or another. I know I've said it before but man, we're living exciting times.

To bring it full circle on the question of their ods and add a little more speculation... would Griffith let them go under other circumstances, or was it a bad case of moonlight boy toxoplasmosis affecting him? It makes sense that the boy could interfere with and influence Griffith beyond his body (we've really already seen it). Can the boy fundamentally soften Griffith and his evil, even stifle it as the boy might be doing when he's out in the moonlight? Is the boy a weakness, or potentially a redeemer? ... That's right, this has all been building to another Griffith "Griffith Redemption" theory!

Hahaha, no way Griffith will be redeemed. Unless... :iva: Anyway, if we disregard an influence from the boy, I think it could be a case of him just being a passive observer (like he was after the slap). That could work whether he ordered the hit or not (personally I still lean towards him not ordering it for a variety of reasons). Now if the boy is involved, I don't see it being a case similar to what he did in volume 22. The kid seems to just be concerned with his parents, or at least that seems to be the one thing strong enough to make him act. It could however be that Griffith is otherwise preoccupied with the full moon.

As for whether the boy's influence could lead to deeper changes within Griffith himself... Definitely possible but too early to be sure (and to determine in what way) I think. However it's still as clear to me as it was 9 years ago that he will be the key to Griffith's downfall.

Offline Smith

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2015, 04:11:10 PM »
Thanks Aaz for the scan and explanation. As usual every new episode is just too awesome to express in word.



I was wondering though, if they are really out of danger. Judging from the last panel they are still within Falconia.


And I am just curious regarding Rakasha intention of using his claws, from what I can see his brute strength could easily rip a horse apart, I wonder why is there a need for claws to split erica's body.


It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2015, 04:21:00 PM »
I was wondering though, if they are really out of danger. Judging from the last panel they are still within Falconia.

Actually they just passed the outer walls on the last page... And they put a stop to Rakshas' pursuit, so yeah they're out of danger. No one else is after them.

And I am just curious regarding Rakasha intention of using his claws, from what I can see his brute strength could easily rip a horse apart, I wonder why is there a need for claws to split erica's body.

He used his claws to cut the horse apart as well.

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2015, 04:21:36 PM »
And I am just curious regarding Rakasha intention of using his claws, from what I can see his brute strength could easily rip a horse apart, I wonder why is there a need for claws to split erica's body.

Look again. Rakshas uses a second set of arms which are sharply pointed to help split the horse in two. He doesn't just pull it apart. Seems like a simple question with a simple answer: He just wants to easily (and precisely) cut Erika open to use her blood. Not to mention it adds tension to the narrative with those claws hovering closely over her.

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2015, 07:26:23 PM »
It could be interpreted a few different ways. Pushing our theoretical knowledge of the Berserk world to its limits, it's not impossible that two souls could share more than a corporeal body, with the boy's body of light reflecting that. Since the evil is bound to the soul, it could work. More vaguely, it's also possible that at some point the boy took something from Griffith on the astral level, which would explain his "superior being" status and also that fleeting resemblance at that specific moment. Either way I don't think Miura left it there merely as a visual clue. To me it's a hint that they're pretty deeply connected.

Yeah, I think that’s the most obvious indication (there’s a little Griff in there! =) and was from the get go, I’m just contorting it around different theories concerning how that could work practically between the boy and Griffith and what the physical consequences of that union could be, or why there aren’t more. Unfortunately, since all of that is rather vague as you say, there’s not a very satisfying conclusion other than they’re combined somehow (which is intriguing enough by itself).

Actually, I think that comparison is most appropriate for the Idea of Evil.
this just has me geeked for the King himself, the only comparable force sounds like... :idea:

I'm glad you think so too, we should talk about THAT more! Or has this been enough conjecture about the unknowable? Anyway, the notion of an antithesis of the Idea of Evil is probably about as old as the Idea of Evil, but we actually have a decent candidate now. I can’t help but imagine the Flower King as a more passive influence though, more a helpful guide than a puppeteer.

Hahaha, no way Griffith will be redeemed. Unless... :iva:

Oh, it’s happening, one way, or another. :femto:

Actually, if not anything so overt as redemption, at least the character is being engaged with these issues again with the promise of more to come. As we’ve said in the past, Griffith had been rather above it all since the Hill of Swords, until Rickert slapped him back down to earth.

Anyway, if we disregard an influence from the boy, I think it could be a case of him just being a passive observer (like he was after the slap). That could work whether he ordered the hit or not (personally I still lean towards him not ordering it for a variety of reasons). Now if the boy is involved, I don't see it being a case similar to what he did in volume 22. The kid seems to just be concerned with his parents, or at least that seems to be the one thing strong enough to make him act. As for whether the boy's influence could lead to deeper changes within Griffith himself... Definitely possible but too early to be sure (and to determine in what way) I think.

Yeah, I just wonder how far that benevolence may extend. Aside from potentially wresting control from Griffith to help his parents (and beyond even those that affect them), can the child also act merely as a better angel or “good” influence (as we initially assumed when he first saved Casca). As we’ve, and even Griffith, said, it could be like a conscience he’s not supposed to have. Which…

However it's still as clear to me as it was 9 years ago that he will be the key to Griffith's downfall.

Yeah, at least as far as being an all-powerful God on Earth is concerned. Though, is that more important than the power of… friendship? :griffnotevil:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2015, 08:58:18 PM »
I'm glad you think so too, we should talk about THAT more! Or has this been enough conjecture about the unknowable? Anyway, the notion of an antithesis of the Idea of Evil is probably about as old as the Idea of Evil, but we actually have a decent candidate now. I can’t help but imagine the Flower King as a more passive influence though, more a helpful guide than a puppeteer.

Well I just meant that the metaphor of distant astronomical bodies being observed through the forces they exert is, to me, more fitting for the Idea of Evil, not that I think the Boy (or the King of the Flower Storm) is a comparable force to it. While there's no doubt the Elf King is very powerful, I don't think it will be directly comparable. However I'm beyond curious to hear his take on the God Hand and the Idea of Evil.

Actually, if not anything so overt as redemption, at least the character is being engaged with these issues again with the promise of more to come. As we’ve said in the past, Griffith had been rather above it all since the Hill of Swords, until Rickert slapped him back down to earth.

Yep. I honestly think the way Miura went about this is pure genius. It manages to make Griffith ambiguous without compromising Femto's character, and gives him a vulnerability only Guts (and Casca) can exploit while also making it an exceptionally difficult choice for them to actually kill him, even if they get the chance. The Rickert relationship is just another layer on top of that which adds even more depth by cutting through the fairytale bullshit to hold him accountable for his actions, in a way he can't disregard like he does when those he sacrificed do it.

Yeah, at least as far as being an all-powerful God on Earth is concerned. Though, is that more important than the power of… friendship? :griffnotevil:


Offline TripleJMaster3

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2015, 01:08:04 PM »
I know some people are skeptical about the Griffith-Moonlight connection after reading this episode but for me the final scene adds clarity. We know Griffith is not some sort of werechild that instantly transforms at each full moon. I assume the moon has been out long enough for said transformation to occur if this was the case. However, the final scene does make me wonder just how much control Griffith actual relinquishes or involuntarily gives to the child. As we have seen the child has the ability to temporarily control Griffiths actions if only to protect his parents. The questions that remain for me are to what extent is that control magnified by the full moon? Is griffith completely vulnerable during this occurence? It would certainly explain the need for his army when Griffith himself has shown very little need for protection. However, the more intriguing question to ask is what counter measures have Griffith taken to protect himself. We already know he is aware of the childs influence but could he actually be relinquishing control to gain an advantage. The fact that the child does not omit any evil could be useful to Griffith if he intended on destroying elfhelm. Perhaps he is trying to find a way to rid himself of the childs influence all together. For every bit of clarity given to us throughout this story a 100 more questions arise.  :???:

Offline Lithrael

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2015, 01:19:29 PM »
You know, for that matter, IF Griffith is in any way diminished while the moonlight kid is out doing his thing, Rakshas probably knows about it by now, and may have been intentionally trying to take advantage of that to 'get away' with doing something Griffith might not have approved of.  Or, Rakshas might have thought that Rickert was getting a pass because of the moonlight kid's sentimental influence, and figured that without it, Griffith wouldn't disapprove of his attack.  Or I could be totally wrong and Rakshas just figured Griff wouldn't mind anyway or even if he did, shut up, I'm Rakshas, I do what I want.

Offline DarkAdin

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2015, 06:46:00 PM »
You know, for that matter, IF Griffith is in any way diminished while the moonlight kid is out doing his thing, Rakshas probably knows about it by now, and may have been intentionally trying to take advantage of that to 'get away' with doing something Griffith might not have approved of.  Or, Rakshas might have thought that Rickert was getting a pass because of the moonlight kid's sentimental influence, and figured that without it, Griffith wouldn't disapprove of his attack.  Or I could be totally wrong and Rakshas just figured Griff wouldn't mind anyway or even if he did, shut up, I'm Rakshas, I do what I want.
Nice view. But I think it's too soon for pretty much anyone to discover that feature on Griffith.

Now comes the question: what is the moonlight boy capable of? Either if he takes control of Griffith's body or goes by himself, what is to expect from him? His feelings could become sometime (I'm speculating here) a weakness to Griffith alright. But how further could this vessel go?
After failure, even the best plan seems stupid.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2015, 07:47:32 PM »
The questions that remain for me are to what extent is that control magnified by the full moon? Is griffith completely vulnerable during this occurence? It would certainly explain the need for his army when Griffith himself has shown very little need for protection.

I don't think the fact Griffith has an army at his command is at all related with the vulnerability the boy might pose to him. As for how vulnerable he is during a full moon... Hard to say at this point. Probably very? I mean that is when the boy appears, and I think you will agree that it is most likely done at Griffith's expense.

However, the more intriguing question to ask is what counter measures have Griffith taken to protect himself. We already know he is aware of the childs influence but could he actually be relinquishing control to gain an advantage. The fact that the child does not omit any evil could be useful to Griffith if he intended on destroying elfhelm. Perhaps he is trying to find a way to rid himself of the childs influence all together. For every bit of clarity given to us throughout this story a 100 more questions arise.  :???:

That's a lot of speculation going on all at once! First off, as far as we know, no "counter-measures" have been devised so far. In fact we don't know if that is at all possible. Second, it's possible he could be taking advantage of the boy's desire to see his parents, but isn't that too convoluted? Griffith had no problem finding Flora, so why would he need to infiltrate Guts' group like that to get to Elfhelm? And from what we saw in volume 22, Griffith wasn't the one in control when it came to the boy and his parents. Third, about ridding himself of the boy's influence, the problem is that he's using his body. I bet he would want to, but can he? That's the big question. If it didn't happen during the Incarnation, it's bound to be a hard problem to solve.

On a side note, let me reiterate that I think people should be wary of drawing conclusions too hastily based on that last panel. There might be more going on there that meets the eye.

You know, for that matter, IF Griffith is in any way diminished while the moonlight kid is out doing his thing, Rakshas probably knows about it by now, and may have been intentionally trying to take advantage of that to 'get away' with doing something Griffith might not have approved of.

Hehe indeed, I believe I ventured a similar guess in the Episode 340 thread. That being said, I would expect Griffith to learn about it eventually, one way or another.

Now comes the question: what is the moonlight boy capable of? Either if he takes control of Griffith's body or goes by himself, what is to expect from him? His feelings could become sometime (I'm speculating here) a weakness to Griffith alright. But how further could this vessel go?

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by "How further could this vessel go?" :???: