Author Topic: Episode 341  (Read 29425 times)

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Offline TripleJMaster3

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2015, 11:14:51 PM »
I don't think the fact Griffith has an army at his command is at all related with the vulnerability the boy might pose to him. As for how vulnerable he is during a full moon... Hard to say at this point. Probably very? I mean that is when the boy appears, and I think you will agree that it is most likely done at Griffith's expense.

That's a lot of speculation going on all at once! First off, as far as we know, no "counter-measures" have been devised so far. In fact we don't know if that is at all possible. Second, it's possible he could be taking advantage of the boy's desire to see his parents, but isn't that too convoluted? Griffith had no problem finding Flora, so why would he need to infiltrate Guts' group like that to get to Elfhelm? And from what we saw in volume 22, Griffith wasn't the one in control when it came to the boy and his parents. Third, about ridding himself of the boy's influence, the problem is that he's using his body. I bet he would want to, but can he? That's the big question. If it didn't happen during the Incarnation, it's bound to be a hard problem to solve.

On a side note, let me reiterate that I think people should be wary of drawing conclusions too hastily based on that last panel. There might be more going on there that meets the eye.

I was not trying to say that Griffith assembled an army of apostles and now humans for the sole purpose of protection but simply that he has shown little to no vulnerablity that would make any such protection necessary. Furthermore, if Griffith could make use of the helix tree it would be hard to envision him needing any support at all. Griffiths motives are still very much in question. He has seemingly accomplished all that he has ever desired so as far as we know he is simply fortifying his empire. However, the one glaring vulnerability that has appeared his the childs influence over his body, confirmed when he was made to save Casca. The reason for the speculations is that from what we have seen from Griffith in the past he has never been the type to sit back and accept a problem as potentially devastating as this. There have been no signs of any counter measures being set into motion but I can gurantee that if there is an advantage or defense to be taken Griffith has already contemplated a plan. As far as why he would need the child to infulitrate elfhelm he may need someone who is not tainted by evil to get close. Something tells me that if a goon squad of apostles made its way to elfhelm it would not go unnoticed. Also assuming some of the keys to destroying griffith will be found on the island Griffith would certainly be interesting in knowing whats going on being that magical beings are the only threat he seems to acknowledge. That being said of course it is all speculation and until we see for ourselves this will just be a big game of clue.

Offline Tripas

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2015, 09:55:43 AM »
And from what we saw in volume 22, Griffith wasn't the one in control when it came to the boy and his parents.

Can we say this with absolute certainty? I won't deny the facts, of course, but I don't completely buy the Griffith/child inner division that even Femto establishes. Time will say, but from what we've seen for now, it seems that the boy isn't only taking control at certain times, but also springing Femto's own emotions to a certain extent.

Offline DarkAdin

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2015, 02:43:08 PM »
I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by "How further could this vessel go?" :???:

Sorry, I'm not as used as I would like to be to expressing myself in these terms in English. By "vessel" I meant the child himself.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2015, 04:38:02 PM »
I was not trying to say that Griffith assembled an army of apostles and now humans for the sole purpose of protection but simply that he has shown little to no vulnerablity that would make any such protection necessary.

Well you said it would explain the need for his army. I disagree. Griffith needs an army because he's not going to go kill each of his enemies himself.

Furthermore, if Griffith could make use of the helix tree it would be hard to envision him needing any support at all. Griffiths motives are still very much in question.

What's certain is that his motives aren't to rule alone over an empty land, devoid of any life. You're really coming at this the wrong way if you think Griffith logically has no need for people. As a member of the God Hand, the one thing we know for sure is that his motives involve manipulating mankind.

He has seemingly accomplished all that he has ever desired so as far as we know he is simply fortifying his empire.

I think it's pretty clear that Griffith's goals are not quite what they used to be during the Golden Age arc. It would be myopic to believe that simply getting to rule a kingdom was his end goal, and that the advent of Fantasia was but a side effect of it.

The reason for the speculations is that from what we have seen from Griffith in the past he has never been the type to sit back and accept a problem as potentially devastating as this. There have been no signs of any counter measures being set into motion but I can gurantee that if there is an advantage or defense to be taken Griffith has already contemplated a plan.

Forgive me for saying so, but that's not a very hard conclusion to reach. However we haven't gotten any clues pointing in that direction so far.

As far as why he would need the child to infulitrate elfhelm he may need someone who is not tainted by evil to get close. Something tells me that if a goon squad of apostles made its way to elfhelm it would not go unnoticed. Also assuming some of the keys to destroying griffith will be found on the island Griffith would certainly be interesting in knowing whats going on being that magical beings are the only threat he seems to acknowledge.

I don't believe in an apostle squad attacking Elfhelm and I never did for a variety of reasons, however I'm also not sure a member of the God Hand would need to go to such lengths to infiltrate the place. More importantly, that would imply he planned the whole thing far in advance and has been in control the whole time, which is not at all how it looks in the story so far. Besides, I don't believe the boy will be inconspicuous if he manifests himself in Elfhelm.

Can we say this with absolute certainty?

Well, yes... yes we can.

I won't deny the facts, of course, but I don't completely buy the Griffith/child inner division that even Femto establishes. Time will say, but from what we've seen for now, it seems that the boy isn't only taking control at certain times, but also springing Femto's own emotions to a certain extent.

Seems to me that not buying something Griffith establishes about himself is kind of denying the facts. And I don't believe we've seen anything that implies the boy is "springing" Femto's emotions. That's not to say it's impossible for the boy's influence to ever become more wide-ranging, but we haven't seen anything that can lead us to believe it has been the case so far.

Sorry, I'm not as used as I would like to be to expressing myself in these terms in English. By "vessel" I meant the child himself.

Ok but I still don't understand the question. How further would the boy go... in what regard? His influence on Griffith? Because I think showing up in person to help his parents is already quite far along...

Offline DarkAdin

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2015, 06:40:25 PM »
Ok but I still don't understand the question. How further would the boy go... in what regard? His influence on Griffith? Because I think showing up in person to help his parents is already quite far along...
Yeah, that's quite far. Personally I don't think it's gonna be just that. I see more potential in the child, hence my question. More potential in his influence on Griffith, more potential in showing up again in person, even more potential in causing major plot twists derived from that in the future. But that's just me I guess.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2015, 07:12:16 PM »
Yeah, that's quite far. Personally I don't think it's gonna be just that. I see more potential in the child, hence my question. More potential in his influence on Griffith, more potential in showing up again in person, even more potential in causing major plot twists derived from that in the future. But that's just me I guess.

Uh well yeah, the boy will show up again. Was that ever in question? :schierke: And he'll be central to major plot developments in the future too. We've known this for a decade.

Offline Tripas

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #81 on: October 28, 2015, 10:25:22 PM »
Seems to me that not buying something Griffith establishes about himself is kind of denying the facts. And I don't believe we've seen anything that implies the boy is "springing" Femto's emotions. That's not to say it's impossible for the boy's influence to ever become more wide-ranging, but we haven't seen anything that can lead us to believe it has been the case so far.

I'm not roundly denying it, but questioning to a certain degree Griffith's theory. Because that's what it is. When he is watching the fight between Guts and Zodd, he thinks that his feelings at that point were the child's and not his. But he doesn't say it as a fact (could I have read a wrong translation...?). I don't think Griffith understood the entire nature of his connection then, and maybe he even doesn't by now.

Like you say, there are no certain clues that can lead us to believe this (the reunion at the Hill of Swords and his meeting with Rickert at Falconia are the only ones we have for now), but I like to be open minded with the Griffith/child relationship. I have one thing clear and it's that Miura won't reduce it to a "mere" fight for the control of the body, at least in terms of how it will happen.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 10:56:22 PM by Tripas »

Offline TripleJMaster3

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #82 on: October 29, 2015, 12:02:31 AM »
Clearly it is far to soon to say what measure Griffith will take to protect himself from the child or use him to his advantage so for the sake of the topic I will save further discussion for later episodes.
Another subject that has me curious is the motives of our stealthy friend.  :rakshas: We know he wanted to kill poor Rickert because he slapped the face Rakshas has been obsessing over since Griffiths return. But how far is he willing to take it now that the group has fleed and will likely soon be well fortified? Is he really that hell bent on revenge that he would take a leave of absence to infilitrate the hide out and kill Rickert? And if so what new tricks might we get to see. We already know he can fly, split a horse in half with little effort and survive being blasted with a flame thrower and rocket launcher. Very curious to see what more he is capable of. Same with Rickert. Im waiting for him to invent the first minigun or perhaps flash grenades since Rakshas seems to not like direct contact with light. All the waiting is certainly paying off in a big way.  :guts:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #83 on: October 29, 2015, 08:49:00 PM »
I'm not roundly denying it, but questioning to a certain degree Griffith's theory. Because that's what it is. When he is watching the fight between Guts and Zodd, he thinks that his feelings at that point were the child's and not his. But he doesn't say it as a fact (could I have read a wrong traduction...?).

Yes, I do believe you have read a wrong translation. Those feelings belong to the boy, the scene makes it quite clear.

Another subject that has me curious is the motives of our stealthy friend.  :rakshas: We know he wanted to kill poor Rickert because he slapped the face Rakshas has been obsessing over since Griffiths return. But how far is he willing to take it now that the group has fleed and will likely soon be well fortified? Is he really that hell bent on revenge that he would take a leave of absence to infilitrate the hide out and kill Rickert? And if so what new tricks might we get to see. We already know he can fly, split a horse in half with little effort and survive being blasted with a flame thrower and rocket launcher. Very curious to see what more he is capable of. Same with Rickert. Im waiting for him to invent the first minigun or perhaps flash grenades since Rakshas seems to not like direct contact with light. All the waiting is certainly paying off in a big way.  :guts:

Just to clarify, we don't know for sure why Rakshas went after Rickert. That it was because he "sullied" Griffith's face is just a guess for now (although it's my favorite hypothesis). Anyway, I'd say things have gotten more personal than that now, since he's been repeatedly foiled by this newly formed team. Like I've said in the past, I definitely expect them to face each other again eventually. And him going after them in their hideout would even the fight out and make it all the more riveting. As for what we'll see then... Super cool stuff from both sides, no doubt. :ubik:

Offline MrFlibble

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #84 on: October 29, 2015, 09:25:09 PM »
If the Moon Child is Griffith, Griffith and the apostles are taking a tremendous risk by keeping him unsupervised with Guts. There's not only the risk the child might be killed by pirates/monsters/sea gods but also that Guts may find out the identity of the child and exploit Griffith's weakness.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2015, 09:42:39 PM »
If the Moon Child is Griffith, Griffith and the apostles are taking a tremendous risk by keeping him unsupervised with Guts. There's not only the risk the child might be killed by pirates/monsters/sea gods but also that Guts may find out the identity of the child and exploit Griffith's weakness.

The idea is that Griffith probably has no choice. And the boy seems more than capable of dealing with whatever comes his way.

Offline Tripas

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2015, 10:55:40 PM »
Yes, I do believe you have read a wrong translation. Those feelings belong to the boy, the scene makes it quite clear.

I have read the translation of this site and it's the same of my volume. The thing is that Griffith is questioning about it, not stating it. It's very clear for us that those feelings belong to the boy, but... we don't know if all of them come form the boy. Maybe Griffith is not only discovering the problems with the vessel, but also trying to give a convenient explanation to something he doesn't understand.

Offline TripleJMaster3

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2015, 11:36:22 PM »
If I remember correctly one of the reasons Aaz connectes the moonlight child to Griffith was the idea that the moonlight child might not have been completely unsupervised.  :zodd:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2015, 06:21:32 AM »
I have read the translation of this site and it's the same of my volume. The thing is that Griffith is questioning about it, not stating it.

There is no proper translation of volume 22 on this website. The one from Eirias is full of errors. Let me assure you, again, that there is no doubt about the fact those are the boy's feelings. The text and the artwork make it clear.

It's very clear for us that those feelings belong to the boy, but... we don't know if all of them come form the boy. Maybe Griffith is not only discovering the problems with the vessel, but also trying to give a convenient explanation to something he doesn't understand.

Yes, we do know. You don't have a leg to stand on here. Clinging to misconceptions will only be more disappointing for you down the line.

If I remember correctly one of the reasons Aaz connectes the moonlight child to Griffith was the idea that the moonlight child might not have been completely unsupervised.  :zodd:

The fact Zodd was overlooking the initial meet up between the boy and Guts' group (which there is no doubt about, by the way) was indeed what originally clued me in as to what was going on. However I had already tied the Moonlight Boy to the Demon Child before that. And we already knew that the Demon Child was connected to Griffith from previous events. It just allowed me to reconcile the fact the boy was shown as still existing within Griffith and yet also as his own new "superior" being.

Offline Tripas

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2015, 10:37:32 AM »
Yes, we do know. You don't have a leg to stand on here. Clinging to misconceptions will only be more disappointing for you down the line.

Oh no, don't worry, I have things very clear and nothing Miura puts on the table will be disappointing. I just enjoy playing with these factors, but it isn't like I'm desperately clinging to them.

The child has shown a Griffith-esque behavior and even his astral body looks like him, all of this due to his connection with Femto. What about Griffith's own persona? How do we know a small part of him wasn't excited seeing Guts fighting Zodd? Can you completely affirm that Griffith hasn't been affected by the boy besides the known problems with the vessel? Maybe he hasn't and I will have to shut my mouth in the future. :ganishka:

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2015, 04:06:18 PM »
The child has shown a Griffith-esque behavior and even his astral body looks like him, all of this due to his connection with Femto. What about Griffith's own persona? How do we know a small part of him wasn't excited seeing Guts fighting Zodd? Can you completely affirm that Griffith hasn't been affected by the boy besides the known problems with the vessel? Maybe he hasn't and I will have to shut my mouth in the future. :ganishka:

Griffith himself says that he feels nothing when he sees Guts on the Hill of Swords. The very reason he went there was to confirm that his feelings were dead.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2015, 07:32:22 PM »
The child has shown a Griffith-esque behavior and even his astral body looks like him, all of this due to his connection with Femto.

The boy's looks are inexpressive, and in that regard he can be said to be reminiscent of Griffith. His behavior however is his own, that of a young boy towards his parents.

What about Griffith's own persona? How do we know a small part of him wasn't excited seeing Guts fighting Zodd? Can you completely affirm that Griffith hasn't been affected by the boy besides the known problems with the vessel?

How do we know Berserk isn't all just a dream? Guts is really just napping by his campfire in page one of volume one, and will wake up covered in dew when morning comes, resuming his simple life as a lumberjack from a small, uneventful village. Can you completely affirm that isn't the case? Can you?!

This is how you come across. The same way arguments that revolve about a remote possibility not being 100% impossible always have and always will.

Offline Tama

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2015, 10:23:37 PM »
I was wondering, who do you think the final battle with Rakshas will be with? Do you think it will be a combination of Guts and crew or just the Bakiraka? It would seem more fitting if Silat defeats him. I know it's far away but I was curious what everyone thought.

Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2015, 11:35:14 PM »
Here's the snippet from the back of this month's YA-Berserk issue

At the end of time, a moment will come when just one man remains. Then the moment will pass. Man will be gone. There will be nothing to show that we were ever here... but stardust.

Offline Tripas

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #94 on: October 31, 2015, 12:16:47 AM »
The boy's looks are inexpressive, and in that regard he can be said to be reminiscent of Griffith. His behavior however is his own, that of a young boy towards his parents.

That's why I didn't say his behavior is Griffith's. Like you said is reminiscent to him. Even Guts points out his "coldness". Beside that little detail, yeah, the child is just curious and wants to play and be with his parents, like any other... well, superior being.

How do we know Berserk isn't all just a dream? Guts is really just napping by his campfire in page one of volume one, and will wake up covered in dew when morning comes, resuming his simple life as a lumberjack from a small, uneventful village. Can you completely affirm that isn't the case? Can you?!

This is how you come across. The same way arguments that revolve about a remote possibility not being 100% impossible always have and always will.

Good point, sir. But you have extremely dramatized it, since I'm only taking into accout two factors, not an infinite amount of posibilities. It's not a theory due to the lack of enough clues but it isn't just an arbitrary "what if".

I was wondering, who do you think the final battle with Rakshas will be with? Do you think it will be a combination of Guts and crew or just the Bakiraka? It would seem more fitting if Silat defeats him. I know it's far away but I was curious what everyone thought.

Silat and the Bakiraka deserve such a privilege. Besides, it would be kind of a waste if, after all the development they have had together, they are not at least face to face before Rakshas' defeat.

Here's the snippet from the back of this month's YA-Berserk issue



I can't wait. :guts:

Offline Mangetsu

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #95 on: October 31, 2015, 12:25:43 AM »
I was wondering, who do you think the final battle with Rakshas will be with? Do you think it will be a combination of Guts and crew or just the Bakiraka? It would seem more fitting if Silat defeats him. I know it's far away but I was curious what everyone thought.

Definetely Silat and the Tapasa. We have this build up since Volume 22. They also had an encounter in volume 27, but the last one really showed how much Silat and the Tapasa were able to do against Rakshas, hence Rakshas commented on Silats growth.

Im sure by the time they battle Rakshas again ,Silat will have grown even more and probably even get some great updates on his equipment, because of Rickert.

Here's the snippet from the back of this month's YA-Berserk issue



 :isidro: Thank you man
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 03:18:45 AM by Mangetsu »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 341
« Reply #96 on: October 31, 2015, 03:58:36 AM »
That's why I didn't say his behavior is Griffith's.

Uh huh. :schierke:

Good point, sir. But you have extremely dramatized it, since I'm only taking into accout two factors, not an infinite amount of posibilities. It's not a theory due to the lack of enough clues but it isn't just an arbitrary "what if".

I've dramatized it because this exchange has been excessively laborious and sterile as far as I'm concerned.

Here's the snippet from the back of this month's YA-Berserk issue

Thank you for the picture, although we can all check it in Young Animal's online edition. Those who bought it or even just checked the free preview would know.

Offline Vixen Comics

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #97 on: November 02, 2015, 08:57:59 PM »
I have no doubt in my mind that the Moon Light boy is connected to Griffith and not the elf king even if I sort of wish there was no connection Griffith and the Boy and he was indeed an avatar or some how in cahoots with the elf king. I just don't trust the boy. He may have his own personality and not have an evil aura about him but the fact that he is related to Griffith makes me worried. If The Moon Light boy can have enough consciousnesses to influence Griffith to save Casca when Griffith had no intention of doing so, whose to say that can be a two way street? When the moon light boy is out in corporal form is "in control" does that mean Griffith is along for the ride as a passive observer and can see everything the boy experiences? And maybe even more sinister, can Griffith temporally compel the moonlight boy to act against his wishes to his own ends like the demon child did when he made Griffith save Casca in volume 22? That could give Griffith an opportunity to manipulate both Guts, and especially Casca's emotions to his end. 

Quote
Can the boy fundamentally soften Griffith and his evil, even stifle it as the boy might be doing when he's out in the moonlight? Is the boy a weakness, or potentially a redeemer? ... That's right, this has all been building to another Griffith "Griffith Redemption" theory!

I really hope not. Griffith made his choices and did the unthinkable, I don't think he should get some kind of redemption even if the boy manages to make him feel regret for what he did (if that were even possible) or for Guts, Casca and company to even toy with the idea of him being redeemed.   

/center]

Offline the immortal bob

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #98 on: November 03, 2015, 12:26:52 PM »
I have no doubt in my mind that the Moon Light boy is connected to Griffith and not the elf king even if I sort of wish there was no connection Griffith and the Boy and he was indeed an avatar or some how in cahoots with the elf king. I just don't trust the boy. He may have his own personality and not have an evil aura about him but the fact that he is related to Griffith makes me worried. If The Moon Light boy can have enough consciousnesses to influence Griffith to save Casca when Griffith had no intention of doing so, whose to say that can be a two way street? When the moon light boy is out in corporal form is "in control" does that mean Griffith is along for the ride as a passive observer and can see everything the boy experiences? And maybe even more sinister, can Griffith temporally compel the moonlight boy to act against his wishes to his own ends like the demon child did when he made Griffith save Casca in volume 22? That could give Griffith an opportunity to manipulate both Guts, and especially Casca's emotions to his end. 

I really hope not. Griffith made his choices and did the unthinkable, I don't think he should get some kind of redemption even if the boy manages to make him feel regret for what he did (if that were even possible) or for Guts, Casca and company to even toy with the idea of him being redeemed.


I feel like if Griffith was a human born corporeally on earth who became a god hand and therefore a spirtual being and then reborn into the coporeal realm.

Then if the moonlight boy is somehow the other end of that spectrum, is he a true spirtual being who is getting his first shot at the corporeal human life.

It makes me think that when the beherit apostle ate Guts and Casca's child after it gave so much energy fighting during the second eclipse after telling him he was like him and that he never got to live in this world, that somehow the child has made his way into life..


Through unexplained means.


there is still so much to be revealed, and there has been layer upon layer added.   Can't believe we are settled in for a monthly run.   


On an unrelated note, I'm interested for something to happen with Serpico soon, and to see developments Isidro.  I feel he took a big center stage in the mermaid arc, but Serpico has took a more relaxed role which makes sense given that Farnese seems at her most stable in taking care of Casca.


Lots of things coming up, interesting to reflect and wonder what Elf Island holds for Guts, and how long it will be until or if he gets any answers about what he seeks concerning Casca.

Offline Doc

Re: Episode 341
« Reply #99 on: November 03, 2015, 06:41:04 PM »
Been having a debate with someone recently about the Moonlight Boy. He's convinced that the boy is the Elf King or an emissary thereof. The crux of his argument rests on taking Schierke's word as gospel, and how the boy only turned up once Guts & friends started for Elfhelm. He doesn't seem to answer WHY the Elf King or one of his messengers would take the form of a mute little boy with Guts & Casca's characteristics or why it only appears during a full moon. Furthermore, what would be the point of this from a plot standpoint? The Moonlight Boy's entire character is surrounded in mystery. If it just turns out to be from Elfhelm... so what?