Author Topic: The Count's Daughter  (Read 4066 times)

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Offline DasBouf

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The Count's Daughter
« on: May 02, 2016, 07:20:40 AM »
Do you think we'll be seeing a return of this character? At the end of the BS arc she swears she'll get vengeance on Guts for killing her Father. There has been no mention of her since. Do you think she will make a return? And if so, what context will she be in the story? Taking her father's place as a Countess, or perhaps a skilled warrior with a hatred for Guts? I certainly hope she sees a return.
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Offline Delta Phi

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2016, 02:48:10 PM »
Theresia's return has been something that gets brought up from time to time, usually as a joke. If we see her, I think it'll be in Falconia, but as was pointed out to me, knowing what she knows of apostles and the God Hand, would she really embrace Griffith's rule? I think she would find an ally in Guts before she sided with Griffith.

Anyway:

http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=2713.0
http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=5648.0
http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=711.0

Not to mention all the side comments across many different threads discussing if she might show up again or not.

Offline DasBouf

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2016, 03:15:58 PM »
Theresia's return has been something that gets brought up from time to time, usually as a joke. If we see her, I think it'll be in Falconia, but as was pointed out to me, knowing what she knows of apostles and the God Hand, would she really embrace Griffith's rule? I think she would find an ally in Guts before she sided with Griffith.

Anyway:

http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=2713.0
http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=5648.0
http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=711.0

Not to mention all the side comments across many different threads discussing if she might show up again or not.
Jeez I forgot her name, so I just looked for the Count's Daughter
I feel like an idiot
Thanks for these though
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Kill everybody in there
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2016, 03:28:40 PM »
Do you think we'll be seeing a return of this character?

Nope.

Taking her father's place as a Countess, or perhaps a skilled warrior with a hatred for Guts? I certainly hope she sees a return.

What would the point be? Do you really think Theresia would have any relevance as an enemy to Guts? Not that she had much ground for hating him anyway, aside from a kneejerk reaction right after seeing her father die.

Offline DasBouf

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2016, 04:02:45 PM »
What would the point be? Do you really think Theresia would have any relevance as an enemy to Guts? Not that she had much ground for hating him anyway, aside from a kneejerk reaction right after seeing her father die.
This is fair, but then out of curiosity what do you think the purpose of her character was? Shortly after his fight with the count we see him visibly upset, so do you think she was there to show that Guts was not heartless? That would be my best guess, but seeing as I couldn't even remember her name I'm not really qualified on anything
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Offline Walter

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2016, 04:25:42 PM »
This is fair, but then out of curiosity what do you think the purpose of her character was? Shortly after his fight with the count we see him visibly upset, so do you think she was there to show that Guts was not heartless? That would be my best guess, but seeing as I couldn't even remember her name I'm not really qualified on anything

The purpose of her reaction wasn't as a serious vow of revenge, but to show that Guts' quest for vengeance can ruin the lives of innocent bystanders, which of course also impacts him.

It's also an example of what happens to "those whose lives get caught up" in the God Hand's affairs.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2016, 05:39:08 PM »
The purpose of her reaction wasn't as a serious vow of revenge, but to show that Guts' quest for vengeance can ruin the lives of innocent bystanders, which of course also impacts him.

It's also an example of what happens to "those whose lives get caught up" in the God Hand's affairs.

This exactly, and of course it's also a means to show that despite his blunt attitude, Guts is not without feelings. Theresia's words hurt him, even if he did not let her see it.
Beyond that, it's a nice way to conclude the Black Swordsman arc: it starts by depicting Guts as a sardonic anti-hero, but by the end of it he has been completely humanized.

Offline Alexmercer984

Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2016, 09:37:19 AM »
As Miura Himself stated in a interview once , back when he started with Berserk , first 3 chapters were moments of trying to figure out
how and why , does he make a plot where Guts was a knight or Griffith was a female could of been what we have today. :troll:
Maybe he forgot about her fully and we shall never see her , al it would be interesting its impossible for as far as I know
Its been below 10 years with the black swordsman arc since Guts got out of of the Eclipse barely alive
she did look fairly young and since she was kept in a tower like a Disney princess Id bet my life on it , she could not have been able to master the sword in such a short time spam ,shall we see a full expansion on the time stop in Elf land we have yet to see it ,I  read something a while back as Miura once said he would like a happy ending for Berserk and he really meant it [not fully sure bad memory] , Guts lost a few billion scars and wrinkles on his face and looks actually happy for once after a very long time .al  Isidro looks creepy with that monkey like smile.....Miura you bastard

Berserk has 2 Fates connected with the  Count's Daughter and such

 1# We Have a Traditional Happy Anime ending like most popular anime do these days , we  see the Counts Daughter appear in the background and is shouting for Guts as a thanks for killing her father back then

2# We Get the Most Fucked Up , Most Bloody and Most Tense Ending in all of Manga History , where Guts survives amazingly but is damaged both mind and body a mix of Gambino , Griffith and his Adoptive mother Shisu and the Counts Daughter somehow finds Guts  and Kills him in a very dramatic Berserky way.

Thats my bet at least

Offline Walter

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2016, 10:30:06 AM »
As Miura Himself stated in a interview once , back when he started with Berserk , first 3 chapters were moments of trying to figure out
how and why , does he make a plot where Guts was a knight or Griffith was a female could of been what we have today. :troll:
I don't think that's exactly what he said...

Quote
Maybe he forgot about her fully and we shall never see her

Unlikely. Has he forgotten about anything else in the series? He's pretty amazing about callbacks and consistency.

Quote
Its been below 10 years with the black swordsman arc since Guts got out of of the Eclipse barely alive

It's been between 3-4 years since the end of the Golden age, according to our 2009 interview with him.

Quote
I  read something a while back as Miura once said he would like a happy ending for Berserk and he really meant it [not fully sure bad memory]

The exact quote from the interview is: "I actually donít think I could let such a long grim story end with a grim ending"

Quote
Guts lost a few billion scars and wrinkles on his face

Guts still has scars.

Quote
Berserk has 2 Fates connected with the  Count's Daughter and such

 1# We Have a Traditional Happy Anime ending like most popular anime do these days , we  see the Counts Daughter appear in the background and is shouting for Guts as a thanks for killing her father back then

2# We Get the Most Fucked Up , Most Bloody and Most Tense Ending in all of Manga History , where Guts survives amazingly but is damaged both mind and body a mix of Gambino , Griffith and his Adoptive mother Shisu and the Counts Daughter somehow finds Guts  and Kills him in a very dramatic Berserky way.

Thats my bet at least

Just those two possibilities?
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline MrFlibble

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2016, 08:09:17 PM »
I would have said no before,however characters that I assumed had died, suddenly turned up again, like Luka and her crew. I don't know how she would fit back into the story other than some angry noble with a vendetta against Guts.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 10:15:46 AM by Wenliinvictus »

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2016, 09:05:54 PM »
I would have said no before, however characters  that I would have assumed has died, suddenly turn up again, like Luka and her crew. I don't know how she would fit back into the story other than some angry noble with a vendetta against Guts.

Luka and co doesn't surprise me. But Theresia? I don't think so. I would not be surprise if we ever see Jill again.

Offline DasBouf

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2016, 09:11:40 PM »
But Theresia? I don't think so. I would not be surprise if we ever see Jill again.
While at this point in the story I don't expect to see them again as main players, it would be cool to see (Jill at least) them as background characters wth maybe a line or two in Falconia. Just as a neat little side thing, not for a plot important reason.
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Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2016, 09:19:34 PM »
While at this point in the story I don't expect to see them again as main players, it would be cool to see (Jill at least) them as background characters wth maybe a line or two in Falconia. Just as a neat little side thing, not for a plot important reason.

I get what you mean but what makes me think that we won't see them again is that we already have Luka and co for our Fantasia point of view. So that's why I think we won't see them again. Mostly Theresia. I would not mind if we get a shot at her somehow but I would not put my money on it.  :serpico:

Offline Lithrael

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2016, 02:42:19 PM »
On the subject of Jill, I'm sure someone else has mentioned it before by now but I wonder if, with the world merge and all, Misty Valley became a more literally magical/protected place again (the actual elves left it long ago right? but something like that) and Jill has towed a crew there, and keeping that little community together is what she's been busy doing.  That and trying to keep her drunk idiot dad from getting eaten. 

Theresia, well.  The story options basically are, she's already been killed, she's decided she has other priorities, or she's following through and figuring out how to get revenges.  And if it's the last, then apart from anything else she has only had a few years to beef up/find allies.  Honestly I'd think that the current situation with all the fantasy monsters would have her restacking her priorities anyway.    In her position, if she was trying to track Guts down, I can imagine that the kerfuffle at Vrittanis would be big enough news to get around, and she could probably guess that was him and find out that he'd left on a ship with Roderick.  But then, you know, fantasy monsters, so that would leave her with survival as a more immediate priority - and if she did head for Falconia would she make the Griffith-Femto connection and be like OH HELL NO.  NOW I GOTTA KILL THIS GUY TOO?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2016, 03:00:32 PM »
I wonder if, with the world merge and all, Misty Valley became a more literally magical/protected place again (the actual elves left it long ago right? but something like that)

Since the elves left presumably many years before, there is no reason for that to happen unless they came back. Plus the place completely burned down...

In her position, if she was trying to track Guts down, I can imagine that the kerfuffle at Vrittanis would be big enough news to get around, and she could probably guess that was him and find out that he'd left on a ship with Roderick.  But then, you know, fantasy monsters, so that would leave her with survival as a more immediate priority - and if she did head for Falconia would she make the Griffith-Femto connection and be like OH HELL NO.  NOW I GOTTA KILL THIS GUY TOO?

That all sounds hilariously improbable and pointless.

Offline Lithrael

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2016, 04:41:27 PM »
Since the elves left presumably many years before, there is no reason for that to happen unless they came back. Plus the place completely burned down...

Well, I meant in the 'area of effect' sense, like the mine.  And places recovering from forest fire have their own liminal feeling already.  Imagine the site of the old Misty Valley looking like this http://www.wildnatureimages.com/Forest_Fire_Regrowth_Photos.htm or this http://www.123rf.com/photo_17174593_regrowth-forest-after-fire-with-beautiful-green-grass.html

I'm not trying to make a serious case but it's still an interesting thought. 

That all sounds hilariously improbable and pointless.

Yep.  Fanfic.  I could maybe see Owen running into Theresia and doing his 'gosh is she talking about the falcons guy?  what is UP with that guy?' thing.   :ganishka:

Offline feralotter

Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2016, 08:38:41 PM »
out of curiosity what do you think the purpose of her character was?

One thing I noticed on my last re-read, is how elements of Theresa's situation, locked away and isolated "for her own protection" against the outside world by a father / protector, aligns with what happens to several other female characters, namely Charlotte, for obvious reasons, but also Casca in the cave after the eclipse, and Farnese being brought up alone in the mansion.

In this framework, Theresa is the first example in the series of this sort of relationship dynamic. To put it crudely, the powerful man - The Count, the King, Guts, and Federico - cordons off his beloved / object of affection in the name of protection and proceeds with his intent to destroy (though in Federico's case it's more about control than extermination) what he perceives as the threat to her.

My speculation is that Gaiseric behaved in some similar manner, perhaps stashed his beloved (not Flora) in Elfhelm and then went off to conquer all of Midland (the threat) as payback.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2016, 08:40:26 PM »
Well, I meant in the 'area of effect' sense, like the mine.  And places recovering from forest fire have their own liminal feeling already.  Imagine the site of the old Misty Valley looking like this http://www.wildnatureimages.com/Forest_Fire_Regrowth_Photos.htm or this http://www.123rf.com/photo_17174593_regrowth-forest-after-fire-with-beautiful-green-grass.html

I'm not trying to make a serious case but it's still an interesting thought.

Sure, but the big tree was their home and what still carried their aura. And it's gone. So in my opinion it wouldn't be the case.

In this framework, Theresa is the first example in the series of this sort of relationship dynamic. To put it crudely, the powerful man - The Count, the King, Guts, and Federico - cordons off his beloved / object of affection in the name of protection and proceeds with his intent to destroy (though in Federico's case it's more about control than extermination) what he perceives as the threat to her.

Farnese was not beloved by her father, nor cordoned off. She was ignored and acted out to draw attention, which only made her father afraid of her. Eventually she became unmanageable and was sent away. I also don't think this works in Casca's case. Guts left her there because he couldn't deal with her condition and chose to rather go on alone and drown his trauma in a quest for vengeance. It was an act of cowardice on his part, hardly comparable to Theresia or Charlotte's cases.

My speculation is that Gaiseric behaved in some similar manner, perhaps stashed his beloved (not Flora) in Elfhelm and then went off to conquer all of Midland (the threat) as payback.

Payback for what? That's kind of a strange theory.

Offline feralotter

Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2016, 09:33:50 PM »
Farnese was not beloved by her father, nor cordoned off. She was ignored and acted out to draw attention, which only made her father afraid of her. Eventually she became unmanageable and was sent away. I also don't think this works in Casca's case. Guts left her there because he couldn't deal with her condition and chose to rather go on alone and drown his trauma in a quest for vengeance. It was an act of cowardice on his part, hardly comparable to Theresia or Charlotte's cases.

Payback for what? That's kind of a strange theory.

I agree the circumstances or desires for the separation them may be different, the reasons given are justified in the mind of that protector / father figure.

Also, now that I think about it, Casca, despite being confined, also had those two for company and wasn't alone all the time. Charlotte also had her hand-maid.

However, do you not see the effect, the purposeful distancing of those who should, by rights, be closer to them, and their their feelings of being "trapped" and alone, as similar?

As for payback for what? I dunno. But again, I see this theme, a storming off to action and adopting grand ambition as avoidance of what one should stay closer to (often family), as a way of avoiding the circumstances of pain and fear associated with those closest to one (and then on occasion sacrificing them when push comes to shove). I see that theme playing out in the male characters I mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised if Gaiseric had something similar happen.



Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2016, 10:04:18 PM »
However, do you not see the effect, the purposeful distancing of those who should, by rights, be closer to them, and their their feelings of being "trapped" and alone, as similar?

Ehhh, not really to be honest. I think Charlotte's case parallels that of Theresia in some broad ways but with some very important differences. Charlotte had Anna (and others) to keep her company, and she could roam the palace as she pleased. She was just safeguarded as the princess of the kingdom, which is completely normal. She was also a very shy girl and did not seem particularly prone to venturing anywhere. We are shown that although she was free (and even required) to attend all kinds of social events, she had little taste for them. She wasn't a prisoner or anything of the sort (once she decided to rebel, she was able to without much trouble), and the king was very attentive with her, for the reasons we know. He did not cast her aside at all. So her condition was completely normal by any standards, save maybe for the fact her father hadn't made any moves to get her married.

Theresia on the other hand was truly locked up inside a cage, unable to go out, unable to even walk the corridors of the castle. We know the reason: her father had become a monster and couldn't bear for her to see what he really was and how he ruled his people. So I would say that the Count's desire to protect her from the outside world, while motivated by his personal history with heretics and his wife, was also a bit of a pretext. But then again let's also not forget Theresia was still a little girl. And she not only resented her condition, but she did not return her father's affection at all. She instinctively knew he wasn't human anymore and even felt disgust at his mere touch (which caused him great distress). That's not to say she didn't care at all about him, but the situation is quite different from how you're picturing it. He wanted to cajole her and show affection, but she refused it.

As for Casca and Farnese, I think their circumstances are quite dissimilar from those above. Casca was not herself anymore. She wouldn't recognize Guts, would barely tolerate his presence. And his own mental distress and clumsy attempts at getting her to act like before only made it worse. He couldn't bear it and left, entrusting her to Rickert and Erika. The reason she was locked in the cave is because the cave was literally the only safe haven for her, and she had no real agency anymore so she couldn't know what was good for her own sake. We know what happened when she eventually left: she wandered randomly and only survived thanks to her son's repeated interventions.

Farnese, like I said above, was yet another case. She was left to her own devices and uncared for. Vandimion didn't care about protecting her. He didn't care about her at all. That's how she got into so much trouble. She was raised by servants and was free to do whatever she wanted. She could go down in the street at a young age and participate in public executions. She went out with Serpico and did all kinds of mischief. As she grew older, she provoked people, created countless problems and eventually burned down her house. Her case is basically the opposite of what you're proposing.

As for payback for what? I dunno. But again, I see this theme, a storming off to action and adopting grand ambition as avoidance of what one should stay closer to (often family), as a way of avoiding the circumstances of pain and fear associated with those closest to one (and then on occasion sacrificing them when push comes to shove). I see that theme playing out in the male characters I mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised if Gaiseric had something similar happen.

In my opinion there is currently nothing to support those claims in the manga.

Offline Lithrael

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Re: The Count's Daughter
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2016, 03:23:15 PM »
Sure, but the big tree was their home and what still carried their aura. And it's gone. So in my opinion it wouldn't be the case.

Ah, true, I had forgotten.

I agree the circumstances or desires for the separation them may be different, the reasons given are justified in the mind of that protector / father figure.

However, do you not see the effect, the purposeful distancing of those who should, by rights, be closer to them, and their their feelings of being "trapped" and alone, as similar?

I see what you're trying to get as but as Aazealh details, the commonality there is really just "broken parent/guardian relationships" and you might just as well throw Guts & Gambino, Rochine & her folks, Jill & Zepec in there too. 

The closest parallel you get is Theresia and Charlotte, with Charlotte just being sheltered and Theresia more literally locked away, and their fathers both seeing them as objects of affection - though weirdly enough Slug Count ended up with the healthier desire to just have a kid who liked him.  So Theresia's affection was taken away from Slug Count by the fact of his monstrous nature (and his upsetting actions), and he was distressed that he couldn't get away with being a monster, but Charlotte was taken away from the King by ANOTHER MAN RARG I GO NUTS NOW.

But these girls didn't crave anything themselves, unless you count Theresia wishing she wasn't locked up and everything wasn't nuts.

And absent Casca doesn't want anything besides just not to be literally restrained.  Guts just wants to help her and keep her safe but didn't know how and was frustrated by that, but he learned that leaving her alone didn't help - not because she needs him, but because she needs the protection he can provide.  Similarly, the girls from Lost Children just needed parents who would represent safety and love instead of being selfishly cruel or thoughtless (or too afraid to stand up for them) and letting awful things happen to them. 

As far as the craving, it's the other way around with Farnese, lil Guts, and Falcons Casca.

Daddy Vandimion didn't want anything either except not to be troubled; he would have been happy with a dutiful cipher of a daughter he could marry off to somebody.  It was Farnese who craved affection and attention from an absent family, and didn't know how to get it.  As far as that goes, Gambino and Guts are a closer match, and Griffith and Casca even.  Guts and Casca both craving the approval and affection of their, IDK, senpai, and doing all kinds of stuff to get it but only getting little shreds of what they really wanted (Casca of course wanting a bit more than just approval, which she got just fine).  The difference there was that they were both doing exactly what should have got them approval, where Farnese was just like I KNOW, I'LL SET FIRE TO THINGS. 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:34:27 PM by Lithrael »