Author Topic: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality  (Read 2307 times)

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Resonance

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The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« on: June 18, 2016, 08:18:09 PM »
After reading through the lost episode awhile back I was curious about one thing, Is the Idea of Evil able to manipulate causality on a universal scale or can the IOE only affect the causality of the Earth the humans reside on? I believe that being able to affect causality would automatically mean that one would have to manipulate it on a universal scale, seeing as it is related with time. But I do not feel satisfied with my explanation on the matter, what would you say?

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2016, 08:58:14 PM »
IOE is a concept, I don't think it can influence anything outside of humanity/life on " earth. " If its born from humans, then technically it should be limited to planes of existence that exist in Berserk world.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2016, 09:03:59 PM »
After reading through the lost episode awhile back I was curious about one thing, Is the Idea of Evil able to manipulate causality on a universal scale or can the IOE only affect the causality of the Earth the humans reside on? I believe that being able to affect causality would automatically mean that one would have to manipulate it on a universal scale, seeing as it is related with time. But I do not feel satisfied with my explanation on the matter, what would you say?

Hahaha, man... That's quite a question.

The Idea of Evil is intrinsically linked to humanity, so it would make sense for its reach to be limited to human matters. However it remains to be seen exactly what its powers and limits are. So far the manga hasn't broached this topic so we can't really answer. To be honest, given that Berserk is a fantasy series I don't think we'll get any detailed explanation of how the various fictional forces interact with the wider universe or with the classic laws of physics. One aspect that might get addressed however is whether or not the Idea of Evil can exert control over non-human Astral creatures. That is much more relevant to the story.

Resonance

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2016, 09:21:32 PM »
Hahaha, man... That's quite a question.

The Idea of Evil is intrinsically linked to humanity, so it would make sense for its reach to be limited to human matters. However it remains to be seen exactly what its powers and limits are. So far the manga hasn't broached this topic so we can't really answer. To be honest, given that Berserk is a fantasy series I don't think we'll get any detailed explanation of how the various fictional forces interact with the wider universe or with the classic laws of physics. One aspect that might get addressed however is whether or not the Idea of Evil can exert control over non-human Astral creatures. That is much more relevant to the story.

Yeah that first explanation makes sense, nothing really wrong with it. What I may think would be a potential clue is that the Idea of Evil has the power to manipulate causality of the physical world despite residing in the abyss. However a state of being cant really tell us about the control they have over their power. Or maybe The "Physical World" also means the universe they reside on and not limited to the Earth, but that seems fairly exaggerated.

Not sure what you mean by non human astral creatures, would you be referring to beings such as the Trolls in Qlipoth or something else?

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2016, 09:39:40 PM »
Given that the means of its control include (or are limited to, depending on how far you speculate) the dark side of a common consciousness that exists in all humanity, I would say that its powers are relegated to humanity.

What I may think would be a potential clue is that the Idea of Evil has the power to manipulate causality of the physical world despite residing in the abyss. However a state of being cant really tell us about the control they have over their power. Or maybe The "Physical World" also means the universe they reside on and not limited to the Earth, but that seems fairly exaggerated.

I don't think it's particularly relevant to distinguish the physical world anymore in terms of "rules," given the merging.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2016, 09:45:08 PM »
What I may think would be a potential clue is that the Idea of Evil has the power to manipulate causality of the physical world despite residing in the abyss. However a state of being cant really tell us about the control they have over their power. Or maybe The "Physical World" also means the universe they reside on and not limited to the Earth, but that seems fairly exaggerated.

I'm not certain I understand what you mean here. Simply said, the world is divided in three realms that are "layered" on top of one another. There's the corporeal, the astral and the ideal. The Idea of Evil dwells in the bottom section (obviously). The order in which they can impact each other goes like this Ideal > Astral > Corporeal. So the fact the Idea of Evil has affect the corporeal world through the manipulation of causality is no problem. One thing you do not mention however is the spatial aspect. Those layered worlds are like a 5th dimension, but presumably they occupy the same space in the universe. So would the Idea of Evil's influence extend all the way to a planet in the Andromeda galaxy? We don't know, but I'd say probably not. There might be other entities residing in the Ideal world over there though. Anyway, like I said I think this is beyond the scope of the story of Berserk, and I doubt it'll be addressed in the manga.

Not sure what you mean by non human astral creatures, would you be referring to beings such as the Trolls in Qlipoth or something else?

Elves, trolls, kelpies, dragons, cockatrices... But also the spirits Schierke summons to aid her. Those represent a power that is completely separate from what fuels the Idea of Evil, the God Hand and the Apostles.

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2016, 10:01:01 PM »
Yeah, I can see why the IOE's influence may not expand throughout our universe with the responses I have been given. The layered worlds being a 5th dimension is quite interesting, never really thought of them as such.

OoOo now the IOE being able to control non human astral beings is quite interesting, I don't think the IOE would be able to control them given that they are different from what fuels the IOE and what not like you said. 
 
 

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2016, 05:52:00 PM »
@Aaz I need to re-read Hawk of Milenium Empire arc ( been a while ) but can you give me a quick rundown as to why astral creatures are an exception.

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2016, 06:09:06 PM »
@Aaz I need to re-read Hawk of Milenium Empire arc ( been a while ) but can you give me a quick rundown as to why astral creatures are an exception.

The Idea of Evil was born from the dark side of humanity's conciousness, and was born because humans desired reasons for why pain,sadness and death occur. Generally things which transcend human knowledge. And now the IOE produces these reasons via controlling every man's destiny, so when you include astral creatures which do not possess any human conciousness to speak of, then it seems likely that the IOE would be unable to manipulate their destiny.  Just my lil explanation  :serpico:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2016, 06:29:38 PM »
@Aaz I need to re-read Hawk of Milenium Empire arc ( been a while ) but can you give me a quick rundown as to why astral creatures are an exception.

For info the correct title of that arc is the "Millennium Falcon arc". It's a reference to the ship from Star Wars.

Regarding the Idea of Evil's influence, well it was created from mankind's collective consciousness, as Walter and Resonance have mentioned. It is a human construct. As such it is a part of every human, and every human is a part of it. So why would non-human beings be subject to its influence?

This is off-topic, but one of my theories for many years has been that the Idea of Evil is preparing a war between humanity (that includes normal people but also apostles and the God Hand) and the rest of the astral world. By removing those outside influences, it could secure a world in which it would control everything. So far the story development seems to be supporting that idea. Griffith has brutally brought back astral creatures into the world (as well as furtively brought his kindred in), while humans have forgotten how to deal with them after a thousand years of separation. Instead of people learning the old magical ways again (like Farnese is doing), which would allow them to enlist the aid of benevolent astral beings to ward off the dangerous pests (like trolls or harpies), mankind is now concentrated and segregated into a giant city while it relies on apostles to defend itself and industrializes weapons to take the battle to the "enemy".

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2016, 07:10:20 PM »
@Resonance, Aaz That was my explanation on it as well, thought there would be something more complex but alright. Thanks for clarifying.

However isnt Ganishka's demise and the merging of corporal and astral world something Griffith should not want ? If Astral creatures can aid humans and ultimately Griffith is still a God hand surely he would want to remove these creatures as soon as possible. He did send a raid party to Flora's domain...

Besides, if IOE wants to secure the world, doesnt it need to feed off negative/dark emotions? What Griffith is doing now is creating an utopia, in which people are not prone to reverting to their base/" true " themselves and are instead living in a paradise. Its like the afterlife has turned 360 and instead of the demonic vision of abyss, there's now heaven. Or is it just an illusion? Do people still end up in vortex of souls by merely believing in Human God ( i like to call it that way because IOE technically was taken out ) or do they now as we've seen, become normal spirits and go to whatever afterlife.

Well I guess, Falconia is just one exception and the rest of the world is still subject to harships and suffering and is such feeding IOE/Human God.

Sorry for off-topic.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2016, 08:33:49 PM »
However isnt Ganishka's demise and the merging of corporal and astral world something Griffith should not want ? If Astral creatures can aid humans and ultimately Griffith is still a God hand surely he would want to remove these creatures as soon as possible. He did send a raid party to Flora's domain...

On the contrary, these events were deliberately caused by Griffith. The ultimate plan I mentioned in the above post is a possible explanation for it. Here's a simple test for you: has the merger of the worlds negatively impacted Griffith's influence? No, on the contrary. As far as we know, the entirety of mankind is now under his control, in a supernatural city built in his image and protected by his monsters. This situation was made possible because the outside world is infested with astral critters. And again, the other four members of the God Hand have been brought into the world by this event. The incarnation of Femto was a once in a thousand years event, something exceedingly rare. But now they're all here, even though we haven't seen them take action yet.

As for sending apostles to kill Flora, it's just not the same thing at all. Flora was a witch and a powerful one at that. Witches are humans who have learned the way the world works and can use magic as a result. Anybody can become a witch in theory, and if enough people did, they could better face the outside world. Which is why Griffith doesn't want people like this to exist (that and because they can be a threat to him). But trolls, harpies, goblins, dragons and so on? Those serve his purpose. They helped decimate mankind and bring all the survivors under his control. With the way things happened (dangerous creatures appearing all of a sudden and people having no time to adapt), the risk for him is currently minimal.

Besides, if IOE wants to secure the world, doesnt it need to feed off negative/dark emotions? What Griffith is doing now is creating an utopia, in which people are not prone to reverting to their base/" true " themselves and are instead living in a paradise. Its like the afterlife has turned 360 and instead of the demonic vision of abyss, there's now heaven. Or is it just an illusion? Do people still end up in vortex of souls by merely believing in Human God ( i like to call it that way because IOE technically was taken out ) or do they now as we've seen, become normal spirits and go to whatever afterlife.

Falconia is hardly utopian. Why? Because people can't leave it. They're prisoners in more ways than one. They have to live the lives they're told to live and serve as cogs in a giant machine. Individual freedom? What's that? And from what happened to Rickert, we can already tell that dissent isn't going to be widely tolerated. Raban's words to Rickert about the state of the world are all you need to see how this really isn't a paradise. And yes, as far as we know people still end up in the Vortex of Souls when they die. It's got nothing to do with believing in a god, it's just how the world works regardless of one's beliefs. Souls are sorted according to their karma, and negative karma means you end up in the Vortex. Simply said, because we haven't yet seen the other side of the mirror (although we did get a glimpse when Locus took Rickert to the Pandemonium) doesn't mean there isn't one. As readers, we know who Griffith really is and what apostles really are. That in itself should be enough to see through this charade.

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2016, 09:29:35 AM »
Quote
And yes, as far as we know people still end up in the Vortex of Souls when they die. It's got nothing to do with believing in a god, it's just how the world works regardless of one's beliefs. Souls are sorted according to their karma, and negative karma means you end up in the Vortex.

Hm.... Putting aside that all humans end up in Vortex  of Souls because of how world works, you bringing up karma makes me think about Vargas. If Karma makes you end up in vortex of souls, then why did he end up? We know he wasn't branded as a sacrifice. Was it due to fact his life was intertwined with Count's or because his hatred/need for vengeance " tainted " his soul and was as such eligible for picking? Vengeance is a dark emotion....

I mean, the first explanation makes perfect sense but since you mentioned karma I couldn't help but to ask why.



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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2016, 10:33:48 AM »
Was it due to fact his life was intertwined with Count's or because his hatred/need for vengeance " tainted " his soul and was as such eligible for picking? Vengeance is a dark emotion....

Yes.

Offline the immortal bob

Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2016, 02:56:35 AM »
On the contrary, these events were deliberately caused by Griffith. The ultimate plan I mentioned in the above post is a possible explanation for it. Here's a simple test for you: has the merger of the worlds negatively impacted Griffith's influence? No, on the contrary. As far as we know, the entirety of mankind is now under his control, in a supernatural city built in his image and protected by his monsters. This situation was made possible because the outside world is infested with astral critters. And again, the other four members of the God Hand have been brought into the world by this event. The incarnation of Femto was a once in a thousand years event, something exceedingly rare. But now they're all here, even though we haven't seen them take action yet.

As for sending apostles to kill Flora, it's just not the same thing at all. Flora was a witch and a powerful one at that. Witches are humans who have learned the way the world works and can use magic as a result. Anybody can become a witch in theory, and if enough people did, they could better face the outside world. Which is why Griffith doesn't want people like this to exist (that and because they can be a threat to him). But trolls, harpies, goblins, dragons and so on? Those serve his purpose. They helped decimate mankind and bring all the survivors under his control. With the way things happened (dangerous creatures appearing all of a sudden and people having no time to adapt), the risk for him is currently minimal.

Falconia is hardly utopian. Why? Because people can't leave it. They're prisoners in more ways than one. They have to live the lives they're told to live and serve as cogs in a giant machine. Individual freedom? What's that? And from what happened to Rickert, we can already tell that dissent isn't going to be widely tolerated. Raban's words to Rickert about the state of the world are all you need to see how this really isn't a paradise. And yes, as far as we know people still end up in the Vortex of Souls when they die. It's got nothing to do with believing in a god, it's just how the world works regardless of one's beliefs. Souls are sorted according to their karma, and negative karma means you end up in the Vortex. Simply said, because we haven't yet seen the other side of the mirror (although we did get a glimpse when Locus took Rickert to the Pandemonium) doesn't mean there isn't one. As readers, we know who Griffith really is and what apostles really are. That in itself should be enough to see through this charade.

Are the apostles compelled to serve Griffith out of him being a divine presence or is it because it's in there wishes.

If this is so are they free from the machinations of causality and merely serving him because he's more powerful, and they don't want to be killed like the emperor.

Or are they really compelled to him as a leader, now that they can easily occupy the physical world, are they still really beholden to griffith out of necessity.

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Re: The Idea Of Evil's length of Causality
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2016, 09:05:31 AM »
Are the apostles compelled to serve Griffith out of him being a divine presence or is it because it's in there wishes.

The vast majority of the apostles wishes to serve him. They view him as their master, as is made by Locus and Ganishka's talk in volume 27. But it goes beyond that. Even those who may refuse to serve are compelled by him. This is shown when Ganishka faces him in volume 32.

If this is so are they free from the machinations of causality and merely serving him because he's more powerful, and they don't want to be killed like the emperor.

Apostles are definitely not free from the grasp of causality. They are agents of the Idea of Evil.