Author Topic: Episode 344  (Read 32567 times)

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Online Walter

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #200 on: July 10, 2016, 06:11:49 PM »
Edit: I was also thinking about those old men trees. Could these be deceased magicians who's souls were put into trees in order to avoid being pulled into vortex of souls?

I thought so at first:
The old men trees reminded me of one of Flora's last lines to Schierke -- for great magic users, death isnt the end, but the beginning of a new kind of existence. I wonder if those entities inhabiting the trees were once old magic users who had their souls transferred to trees to prolong their "lives." Which of course, made me think of our favorite old man knight.  :badbone:

But in retrospect, I think they're just going to turn out to be trees that are "alive," and that's represented by depicting them as old men.

However, they wouldn't have gone to the Vortex necessarily. Flora says souls are divided according to their karma. Souls dominated by evil go to the Vortex, but not all. Flora, for example, isn't there.
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Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #201 on: July 12, 2016, 06:00:51 PM »
Quote
Which of course, made me think of our favorite old man knight.

Hm. Maybe Flora binded Gaiserick's soul to the armour?

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #202 on: July 12, 2016, 06:04:39 PM »
Hm. Maybe Flora binded Gaiserick's soul to the armour?

Yes, that's long been a theory (since we learned he was hollow), and it's what I was hinting at.  :carcus:

Speculating further, while there was probably a soul transference involved with Gaiseric, it would be interesting if in addition to that, Skull Knight's armor has a special property that relates to his life force or soul -- extending it but at a cost. Not dissimilar to the "cost" of the Berserk's Armor.
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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #203 on: July 12, 2016, 06:58:58 PM »
Speculating further, while there was probably a soul transference involved with Gaiseric, it would be interesting if in addition to that, Skull Knight's armor has a special property that relates to his life force or soul -- extending it but at a cost. Not dissimilar to the "cost" of the Berserk's Armor.

I think the kind of existence it reduces him to is more than enough of a cost as it is. No senses, no feelings, no pleasure. He exists, but he doesn't live. It's kind of horrible in a way. Only a very driven man would resort to this kind of thing. As for the armor itself, it strikes me as being even more attuned to its wearer than the Berserk's armor is, what with its looks and all.

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #204 on: July 14, 2016, 12:30:43 AM »
So, the kids clearly remember Puck and his mischief. Puck was out of the island for at least 3 years, and probably even more than that if Judeau got his elf dust from Puck (which happened even before he joined the Hawks, so it's more than 7 years ago for sure). This kind of gives us a very rough idea on how drastic the time flow difference is. I guess we can "afford" to skip 5-10 years in the outside world, without losing all the human characters.

I wonder if we'll ever get any clarification about those skulls and souls that were kept inside of the wickerman. Who were the sacrifices for that and who actually sacrificed them? They kind of skipped over the whole thing. The mages might have been offering themselves as the sacrifice in order to protect the island, but aren't the mages supposed to merge with the astral world after they die and not be tied up to some doll in the physical world? Was that some aborigenes that were living on the island before the mages and they eradicated them long time ago? Or did some kind of attack on the island already occured in the past (maybe connected with Gaiseric losing his body while defending it)? Any explanation on that Ganishka looking trees would be nice as well. Any explanation on anything would be nice, actually.

Seeing how Morda is bored and tired of the island, makes pretty much obvious that she will join the Guts party and they will leave the island. I'm pretty sure Guts won't stay on the island for too long, just because in that case all the human characters in the outside world will die out or will age too much. And if he will leave Casca alone on the island, that would make her kind of drop out of the story, which might feel a bit weird since she was the key story point the whole time. I presume her healing will be failed or interrupted (by apostile attack, by Griffith himself or it's just not possible), and Guts will be forced to go to Falconia and visit Griffith with his Helix Tree to complete her healing for some reason. Or she will regain her mind and after we get confirmation about Moonlight Child being her son, she would want to see Griffit and her child inside of him, she's naturally drawn to him after all. But I'm hesitant to believe that we'll see her healed any time soon. I guess we'll see, whatever happens should happen relatively soon.

Also, I was hoping that the Flowerstorm King is in fact a huge sworm of elves (flower petals being tiny elves flying around) with it's own collective overmind, and Puck was a part of that sworm at some point, which would technically make him a some kind of royalty. But it seems it's a bit more literal than I expected with that giant cherry blossom tree there. Looking forward to seeing how he actually looks. Hope we'll get the some kind of reveal at the end of the next chapter. It's a cute little girl, right?

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #205 on: July 14, 2016, 12:51:25 AM »
So, the kids clearly remember Puck and his mischief. Puck was out of the island for at least 3 years, and probably even more than that if Judeau got his elf dust from Puck (which happened even before he joined the Hawks, so it's more than 7 years ago for sure). This kind of gives us a very rough idea on how drastic the time flow difference is. I guess we can "afford" to skip 5-10 years in the outside world, without losing all the human characters.

5-10 years is in line with our initial guesses, just in terms of what would be realistic with the current world and characters. But what you're basing it on is a very rough concept. We don't know when Judeau got the dust. It could be as little as 5 years ago, or it could be greater than 10. We don't know his history that well, particularly in terms of where it fits on a timeline.

Quote
I wonder if we'll ever get any clarification about those skulls and souls that were kept inside of the wickerman. Who were the sacrifices for that and who actually sacrificed them? They kind of skipped over the whole thing. The mages might have been offering themselves as the sacrifice in order to protect the island, but aren't the mages supposed to merge with the astral world after they die and not be tied up to some doll in the physical world? Was that some aborigenes that were living on the island before the mages and they eradicated them long time ago? Or did some kind of attack on the island already occured in the past (maybe connected with Gaiseric losing his body while defending it)? Any explanation on that Ganishka looking trees would be nice as well. Any explanation on anything would be nice, actually.

I feel like we're about an episode or two too premature to be demanding explanations of new concepts.

We've begun hypothesizing about these things already. It's a pretty safe bet that the island wasn't always in isolation. Morda mentions that the Wicker Man came from their storage, effectively gathering dust over the years. So there was probably a time where it was used in a time of war, and those souls were adversaries involved in a mass ritual. That's not far-fetched. As for the trees, they could be a number of things. They could actually be old men whose souls were transferred to trees to prolong their lives, or they could simply be trees that are "alive" and Miura chose to represent it with old man faces.

Quote
Seeing how Morda is bored and tired of the island, makes pretty much obvious that she will join the Guts party and they will leave the island. I'm pretty sure Guts won't stay on the island for too long, just because in that case all the human characters in the outside world will die out or will age too much. And if he will leave Casca alone on the island, that would make her kind of drop out of the story, which might feel a bit weird since she was the key story point the whole time.

Was there a scenario you envisioned where Guts wouldn't leave the island? Furthermore, Guts has already promised himself that he would never leave her behind again. That alone lends credence to Casca coming with him, aside from every other reason she might (confronting Griffith for what he did, reuniting with their son, etc.).

Quote
I presume her healing will be failed or interrupted (by apostile attack, by Griffith himself or it's just not possible), and Guts will be forced to go to Falconia and visit Griffith with his Helix Tree to complete her healing for some reason. Or she will regain her mind and after we get confirmation about Moonlight Child being her son, she would want to see Griffit and her child inside of him, she's naturally drawn to him after all. But I'm hesitant to believe that we'll see her healed any time soon. I guess we'll see, whatever happens should happen relatively soon.

Or she actually does get healed and joins Guts on a quest to save their son. What's wrong with that aside from your unexplained hesitation?

Because what you're describing above doesn't really add up. Guts departs without her, violating his promise in Vol 17, and in order to heal her mind confronts a literal kingdom of adversaries, (takes his revenge...?) then ... goes back overseas... with the missing ingredient?

Quote
Looking forward to seeing how he actually looks. Hope we'll get the some kind of reveal at the end of the next chapter.

We're currently in the Chapter of Elf Island. Did you mean episode?

Quote
It's a cute little girl, right?

Then it'd be the Queen of Flowerstorm.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 01:18:44 AM by Walter »
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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #206 on: July 14, 2016, 08:25:43 AM »
So, the kids clearly remember Puck and his mischief. Puck was out of the island for at least 3 years, and probably even more than that if Judeau got his elf dust from Puck (which happened even before he joined the Hawks, so it's more than 7 years ago for sure). This kind of gives us a very rough idea on how drastic the time flow difference is. I guess we can "afford" to skip 5-10 years in the outside world, without losing all the human characters.

Puck was off the island for a while even as far as the islanders are concerned. It seems pretty obvious to me that he spent well over 10 years in the outside world (it could have been 30 years for all we know), but you need to keep in mind that it could have translated to 1 or 2 years inside the island. You also need to consider that the way the time differential works may not be linear, it could be prone to irregularities or accelerate and slow down at times, like an ebb and flow. With all that said, I could see a time difference of, say, 3 to 7 years, which is what I expected before we even learned about the island's properties. It's not that skipping 15 years ahead would lose us many characters (the Pontiff and Daiba are the only ones that come to mind), but it wouldn't necessarily be that interesting compared to seeing Rickert & Erika and Sonia & Mule as young adults.

I wonder if we'll ever get any clarification about those skulls and souls that were kept inside of the wickerman. Who were the sacrifices for that and who actually sacrificed them? They kind of skipped over the whole thing. The mages might have been offering themselves as the sacrifice in order to protect the island, but aren't the mages supposed to merge with the astral world after they die and not be tied up to some doll in the physical world? Was that some aborigenes that were living on the island before the mages and they eradicated them long time ago? Or did some kind of attack on the island already occured in the past (maybe connected with Gaiseric losing his body while defending it)?

I don't think the particular circumstances surrounding that one specific Wicker Man actually matter much as opposed to the implications of knowing this sort of practice was once common, in times long past. The one we saw doesn't have to have even originated on this island, and the scenarios you mention are neither likely nor interesting in my opinion. Meanwhile, the knowledge is what matters because it means not all magic users were always as focused on nature and elementals as Schierke and the Skellig folks are. I speculated around what that means earlier on in this thread, if you're interested.

Seeing how Morda is bored and tired of the island, makes pretty much obvious that she will join the Guts party and they will leave the island. I'm pretty sure Guts won't stay on the island for too long, just because in that case all the human characters in the outside world will die out or will age too much. And if he will leave Casca alone on the island, that would make her kind of drop out of the story, which might feel a bit weird since she was the key story point the whole time. I presume her healing will be failed or interrupted (by apostile attack, by Griffith himself or it's just not possible), and Guts will be forced to go to Falconia and visit Griffith with his Helix Tree to complete her healing for some reason. Or she will regain her mind and after we get confirmation about Moonlight Child being her son, she would want to see Griffit and her child inside of him, she's naturally drawn to him after all. But I'm hesitant to believe that we'll see her healed any time soon. I guess we'll see, whatever happens should happen relatively soon.

I don't think your reasoning is very sound here. Like Walter said, has anyone ever believed that Guts would remain in Elfhelm forever? He just gets there and that's it, The End? Of course not. But it also makes no sense for Casca to not get cured at this point (or for her to stay behind on the island) when the promise that it could happen was made over 10 volumes ago. It seems relatively obvious to me that Casca will be cured and the group will undergo some internal challenges relating to each individual's goals and desires. Then a series of external events will provide an incentive for them to get out there and go to Falconia, among which I can think of: the desire for Casca and Guts save their son, the threat to the world posed by Griffith and the rest of the God Hand, the fact the island's time flow will cut them off from the rest of the world.

Also, I was hoping that the Flowerstorm King is in fact a huge sworm of elves (flower petals being tiny elves flying around) with it's own collective overmind, and Puck was a part of that sworm at some point, which would technically make him a some kind of royalty. But it seems it's a bit more literal than I expected with that giant cherry blossom tree there.

To be fair, envisioning the King of the Flower Storm as an elf hivemind was pretty far-fetched. That he would be related to a cherry tree was almost certain from the start (see that maelstrom of petals in episode 237) and it was made even clearer by the introduction of Chich (a new kind of elf, tied to a plant) in the little flashback we got in episodes 328 to 330.

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #207 on: July 15, 2016, 05:11:52 PM »
Morda mentions that the Wicker Man came from their storage, effectively gathering dust over the years.

Yeah, Schierke said it's an old sorcery too.
What do you think about Gaiseric losing his body while defending the island?
I always thought he "died" during the fourth eclipse elsewhere, but now that I think of it, it's hard to imagine how Flora managed to preserve him from actually dying while carrying him to the island (except explaining it with magic). It would be more suitable for him to lose his body while he was near the Elf King, so he transferred Gaiseric's soul from his dying body into the Skull Knight's armor as a gratitude or as a part of some kind of agreement.
Could it be that fourth eclipse happened on the island?
Sorry if this is too unrelated to the topic.

As for the trees, they could be a number of things. They could actually be old men whose souls were transferred to trees to prolong their lives, or they could simply be trees that are "alive" and Miura chose to represent it with old man faces.

Trees indeed seem to bear some sort of a spiritual meaning - spirit trees, cherry blossom tree related to the Elf King, Helix tree (which I think might be a part of the Idea's "body"), bloody rituals performed around a tree, a priest's skin placed on a tree by heretics.
I like the idea of them transferring souls into the trees, since it would make Gaiseric-SK soul transfer not so completely new for them. Though, I thought mages should not be afraid of death because after dying they move on to the astral world with their souls unchanged. At least that what Flora said in her farewell if I remember correctly.

Was there a scenario you envisioned where Guts wouldn't leave the island?

I said "for long" there. But aren't Guts being torn between moving on with his life and avenging Griffith now that he's somewhat reachable? Guts definitely thought about it a numerous times. That "there is no guarantee that your wish will be her wish" phrase came up again not so long ago, when he thought about when will his journey end, after killing Sea God. He was affected by Godo's speech about broken sword and what's important in life. He was impressed with how Rickert coped with the loss of comrades and had the strength to move on. He actually planned to live at the dwarf's cave with Erica and Rickert after he rescued Casca. He initially decided to go to Puck's home in order to find a safe place for them to live, since dwarf's cave was destroyed. It seems like a possibility that he could consider to settle down on the island. Until, of course, the island will be attacked and he will be pulled into his anger again or something like that.
Of course I didn't mean that he will stay on the island and here we go - thank you for your support, see you in the next work by Miura-sensei. He has to leave at some point in order the story to progress.

Because what you're describing above doesn't really add up

I meant there Guts with Casca will have to go to Falconia to complete her healing. As I said, I don't think that Miura will exclude her from the story by leaving her on the island alone.

Or she actually does get healed and joins Guts on a quest to save their son. What's wrong with that aside from your unexplained hesitation?

I don't know, it's hard for me to imagine her being as she was before, since it was so long ago. Can't imagine how she will be communicating with the rest of the party and especially Farnese. It's probably just me.

We're currently in the Chapter of Elf Island. Did you mean episode?

Yup.




it could have translated to 1 or 2 years inside the island

It sure could, but they listed his little shenanigans in such details like it has happened just a couple weeks ago, not years. Sure, this might have been just for sake of a comedic moment, but still.

I speculated around what that means earlier on in this thread, if you're interested.

Oh, that's a very cool idea. We kind of already know that there's different approaches to magic use - kushans have their battle mages with their own ways. It's definitely a possibility that there was another "darker" type of magic. Which was exterminated by "good" mages or it just died out naturally after the apostles begun to appear.
It fits pretty well with my belief that Void was a magic user at some point. Crimson Beherit being a droplet of blood (and a regular one represents a tear) works well here too, if Void was the one who created the first Beherit to establish a connection with Idea.

Sorry for the offtopic, but what's your current thoughts on heretics we saw in Black Swordsman and Conviction arcs? Could they be an echo of another school of magic?

That he would be related to a cherry tree was almost certain from the start (see that maelstrom of petals in episode 237)

Well, exactly because of that maelstrom of petals I had that thought. And because Ivalera has somewhat flowery feel to her "clothes", so I made a connection. I wouldn't bet my money on him being the hive-mind, but I was kind of guessing that he is. Again, now it's clear that it's different from what I thought.
By the way, you made me skim through the episodes when Flowerstorm King was mentioned and we actually might have already had a glimpse of what Elf King will look like in chap episode 331, page 14. Though it's kind of hard to understand what there actually depicted, except human torso with hands up and wings that kind of make up a throne.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #208 on: July 15, 2016, 09:59:48 PM »
What do you think about Gaiseric losing his body while defending the island?

It's impossible to know right now, but personally I don't feel it.

I always thought he "died" during the fourth eclipse elsewhere

The fourth eclipse? 216 years before Griffith became Femto? So about 800 years after his capital city was destroyed? That makes no sense.

it's hard to imagine how Flora managed to preserve him from actually dying while carrying him to the island (except explaining it with magic)

As a reminder:
1) Magic was definitely involved in this process, no matter how you look at it.
2) While we assume there is a relation with Elfhelm, nothing in the manga says he became the Skull Knight on Skellig.

Could it be that fourth eclipse happened on the island?

Nah.

Helix tree (which I think might be a part of the Idea's "body")

Hahaha, that reminds me of this picture I did when the tree was first revealed.
That aside, I don't think the skinned priest hung on a tree has any relevance here.

I thought mages should not be afraid of death because after dying they move on to the astral world with their souls unchanged. At least that what Flora said in her farewell if I remember correctly.

Flora says nothing that specific. Anyway, we don't know what those trees are.

But aren't Guts being torn between moving on with his life and avenging Griffith now that he's somewhat reachable? [...] I meant there Guts with Casca will have to go to Falconia to complete her healing. As I said, I don't think that Miura will exclude her from the story by leaving her on the island alone. [...] I don't know, it's hard for me to imagine her being as she was before, since it was so long ago. Can't imagine how she will be communicating with the rest of the party and especially Farnese. It's probably just me.

Guts decided he would put Casca first in volume 17, and that meant putting his revenge aside. He has done just that, even though it wasn't easy for him to forgo his pursuit of Griffith. It's obvious to us all that said pursuit will resume eventually, and we also agree that leaving her in Elfhelm just isn't an option. But you've just recapped the events of the almost 20 volumes that this journey has spanned. Do you really think it will have been for naught? That they'll leave Elfhelm with Casca still in the same state? Just from a storytelling perspective, it would not make any sense. And when she does come back, she doesn't have to be just like before. In fact I doubt she'll be. Everything has changed, and she probably will be changed to some extent herself. But that's precisely what will make it interesting, to have her back, to have her be different and grow, and to see her interactions with the group. It'll be the most interesting thing to happen to Guts' group since Schierke joined it.

It sure could, but they listed his little shenanigans in such details like it has happened just a couple weeks ago, not years. Sure, this might have been just for sake of a comedic moment, but still.

Ged greets him with "long time no see", which implies it's at the very least been some months since they last saw each other. And they all act as if they haven't seen him in quite a while too.

Oh, that's a very cool idea. We kind of already know that there's different approaches to magic use - kushans have their battle mages with their own ways.

Kind of, although the Kushans were basically unrefined amateurs compared to these guys, and it pretty much all rested on Daiba's shoulders and Ganishka's power as an apostle.

Crimson Beherit being a droplet of blood (and a regular one represents a tear) works well here too, if Void was the one who created the first Beherit to establish a connection with Idea.

Who said a beherit represents a tear? Griffith sees his last tear crystallized as he falls towards the Abyss, and then he sees tons of beherits rising as droplets from the "sea" below him. It's not as if his one tear becomes a beherit. Beherits are entities tied to the Ideal World and to the Idea of Evil specifically.

Sorry for the offtopic, but what's your current thoughts on heretics we saw in Black Swordsman and Conviction arcs? Could they be an echo of another school of magic?

I don't think so. They are a counterpart to the Holy See and I see them as equally clueless.

And because Ivalera has somewhat flowery feel to her "clothes", so I made a connection.

Ah, but that's because her design is based around a cabbage, just like Puck's is based around a chestnut. :iva:

By the way, you made me skim through the episodes when Flowerstorm King was mentioned and we actually might have already had a glimpse of what Elf King will look like in chap episode 331, page 14. Though it's kind of hard to understand what there actually depicted, except human torso with hands up and wings that kind of make up a throne.

That's just a "mysterious shot", I don't believe it is representative of what the King of the Flower Storm will actually look like.

Offline Feeblecursedone

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #209 on: July 16, 2016, 05:30:40 PM »
Quote
By the way, was the tree Rochine had chosen as her lair a spirit tree? Sounds possible to me. Way to go, Guts!

Even more possible considering misty valley was once full of elves. There are hints dropped that time in misty valley might flow differently than in outside world similar like on Skellig.

Speaking of Lost Children, has anyone wished to see Jill again? I've been thinking about some of these left-behind characters and I think it would be cool if we saw some of them en route to Falconia, given how the world is now populated by astral creatures and they're pushing the humans out.  I think she could be friends with Erica and the rest of girls there.

Its probably just nostalgia speaking though as her part of story was finished  :judo:

Offline Imperator Hanseatic

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #210 on: July 16, 2016, 06:27:35 PM »
I think she could be friends with Erica and the rest of girls there.

Well, Erika is leaving with Rickert so..

Anyway, it would indeed be interesting to see Jill there in Falconia with Luka and co, after the probable time skip. Maybe one more person talking vaguely about their time with  :guts: will make them all connect the dots. Additionally, upon Guts' arrival it would be nice to have a brief reunion before shit hits the fan as a little proof to Guts (if he even needs it) that he's making a difference for people, giving them years of life when they'd have died years ago without him, but we can't see that far ahead yet.

Anyway, 345 soon according to the last info I got.

EDIT: Corrected names. (how embarrassing!)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 08:38:31 PM by Imperator Hanseatic »

Offline IncantatioN

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #211 on: July 16, 2016, 07:33:12 PM »
Erica

Erica
Luca

Hey guys, keep in mind that the official spellings are Luka and Erika, as confirmed in episode 338.
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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #212 on: July 16, 2016, 07:57:06 PM »
Anyway, 345 soon according to the last info I got.

Yep! Should be out in less than a week. :guts:

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #213 on: July 16, 2016, 08:08:01 PM »
Hey guys, keep in mind that the official spellings are Luka and Erika, as confirmed in episode 338.

Thanks for the reminder. Still having trouble from time to time after all those years.  :ganishka:

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #214 on: July 16, 2016, 09:00:25 PM »
Yep! Should be out in less than a week. :guts:

That's right! I'm so excited.  :ubik:

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #215 on: July 16, 2016, 09:33:07 PM »
Even more possible considering misty valley was once full of elves. There are hints dropped that time in misty valley might flow differently than in outside world similar like on Skellig.

Well yeah, that's what I was referring to. Although time in misty valley flowed normally.

Speaking of Lost Children, has anyone wished to see Jill again?

It would be great, but I wouldn't count on it.

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #216 on: July 16, 2016, 10:03:24 PM »
Anyway, 345 soon according to the last info I got.
Well, the relase date [22 July] of the 345 is written on the last page of the last Episode, so nothing new here  :troll:
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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #217 on: July 16, 2016, 10:11:39 PM »
Well, the relase date [22 July] of the 345 is written on the last page of the last Episode, so nothing new here  :troll:

Things change. Sometimes things get delayed or pushed ahead.  :schnoz:

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #218 on: July 17, 2016, 10:32:33 AM »
Things change. Sometimes things get delayed or pushed ahead.  :schnoz:

That's actually never happened, once we've been given a date. If the date is unknown, it'll just say "Tsuzuku," which is effectively "to be continued."
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Imperator Hanseatic

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #219 on: July 17, 2016, 06:10:40 PM »
That's actually never happened, once we've been given a date. If the date is unknown, it'll just say "Tsuzuku," which is effectively "to be continued."
Just because it hasn't yet doesn't mean it can't. I like to keep my bases covered, just in case. Maybe it's unnecessary but it's just what I do. I'll refrain from bringing it up in the future unless something does actually change (however unlikely).

pav327

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #220 on: July 18, 2016, 07:29:30 AM »
The fourth eclipse? 216 years before Griffith became Femto? So about 800 years after his capital city was destroyed? That makes no sense.

I'm basing it on the fact that Zodd clearly remembered berserker armor and knew that SK wore it and suffered the consequences. Our best guess about Zodd's age as an apostle is 300 years, because that's when he started his quest. So, my guess is that it was the fourth eclipse when he met and fought SK and that when he personally saw what's the path down to the hell means. I don't think SK met him somewhere else, because we saw that he doesn't care about regular apostles and only targets God Hand in key points of the events.
Do you think Gaiseric "died" when the Capital fell? Or it wasn't tied to any specific event at all?

While we assume there is a relation with Elfhelm, nothing in the manga says he became the Skull Knight on Skellig.

Well, it's reasonable to assume that, no? Him knowing about the Elf King's ability to manipulate soul/mind and Elfhelm being the place og the top level magic knowledge. I assume, that's what happened with SK requires something this big and powerful. Would be strange if something even more powerfull will come out of the blue. And besides, SK felt kinda like an elf to Puck.
Also, SK somewhat connects with Peekaf in my head - treated by elves, had red eyes, lived through a time skip, lost pretty much everything, a cute.

Flora says nothing that specific

She said "My existential form will merely change. We can meet again in your dreams.". We know that human dreams are the part of the astral world and that's where spirits live. She wasn't talking about just memories about her, right?

Do you really think it will have been for naught?

This could be a good reason to resume his pursuit, don't you think? Or, again, her healing will be disrupted or incomplete and they will be forced to go to Falconia in order to finish it.
I think Guts needs a reason or a reminder, because if anything, he became even calmer and more detached from his Beast than he ever was since the Eclipse. And there is quite a big possibility that Flowerstorm King will do something with the Beast to tame it down.
If she will be healed and will want to go and take revenge than SK's words, about her having a different wish than Guts, would have no point. And SK always had a point. Just killing Griffith out of rage and take the child that fused with his shell (which would mean to kill or expel Femto from the shell) are not too different of a wishes. Though, it could be that it's Guts will be the who would want to settle down and move on, but Casca will demand actions to take her son back. Anyway, all I was saying is that I can't imagine to see completely healed Casca. Her being damaged or not completely restored would be okay for me. Again, it's just me.

Ged greets him with "long time no see"

He knows that it was years for Puck.

Who said a beherit represents a tear?

No one, It's my assumption. Tears are associated mainly with suffering and negative emotions. Beherits seems to be a concentration of negative emotions and they release it upon full activation and this is what summons God Hand. SK kind of explained that suffering attracts God Hand when he warned Guts about the pseudo eclipse at st.Albion. And the Idea of Evil is surrounded by negative emotions, so I think Griffith on his way to the abyss had seen condensed suffering forming into Beherits.
With the new anime show I realised that Betchi is actually grey/blueish and not olive color. It was grey/blueish in PS2 game, in 1998 year's calendar and in the official illustration book (last two were made directly by Miura, so it couldn't be a mistake) as well. It appeared to be an olive color in the 97's anime and yellowish in the colored manga page just because the color was affected by yellow/orange light from a fire nearby. Yellow and blue create green/olive kind of color. I don't think I saw any other Beherit in color (at least not from Miura), except Betchi and Crimson Beherit, so I assume that all regular Beherits are grey/blueish, which may be the color of a tears.
Blood is associated with suffering and harm too, among the other things. So, Beherits being blood and tears seems reasonable to me. That's also why they're never look happy.

They are a counterpart to the Holy See and I see them as equally clueless.

Well, Holy See had the prophecy about the Hawk of Darkness, so they know (or rather knew) at least something that's true. They lost it over the years and became completely different thing now, so I though the same could be with the heretics.

Anyway, thank you for your thoughts! I won't go on, because I think I'm drifting off towards speculations instead of the episode discussion.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 03:59:08 PM by pav327 »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #221 on: July 18, 2016, 09:42:24 AM »
I'm basing it on the fact that Zodd clearly remembered berserker armor and knew that SK wore it and suffered the consequences. Our best guess about Zodd's age as an apostle is 300 years, because that's when he started his quest. So, my guess is that it was the fourth eclipse when he met and fought SK and that when he personally saw what's the path down to the hell means. I don't think SK met him somewhere else, because we saw that he doesn't care about regular apostles and only targets God Hand in key points of the events.

I'm not sure I'd call Zodd's roaming and killing in search of the strongest opponents a quest. But anyway, what you're proposing is that Zodd met a still human Gaiseric, 800 years after his reign had ended, while Zodd had already been an apostle for close to a hundred years. I find that unlikely. Wouldn't it rather make more sense that the Skull Knight, during his long life, met Zodd before he was an apostle? Because the simplest explanation is that Zodd learned about the Berserk's armor some other way than by seeing Gaiseric die in front of him. Not to mention that we don't even know whether Zodd had prior knowledge of the Berserk's armor, as opposed to just seeing Guts wearing a strange magical armor with a skull helmet and putting two and two together.

Do you think Gaiseric "died" when the Capital fell?

I think he "died" around that time, yes. Not 800 years later.

Well, it's reasonable to assume that, no? Him knowing about the Elf King's ability to manipulate soul/mind and Elfhelm being the place og the top level magic knowledge. I assume, that's what happened with SK requires something this big and powerful. Would be strange if something even more powerfull will come out of the blue. And besides, SK felt kinda like an elf to Puck.

We know he's connected to elves, so yes, it's reasonable to assume. It's a strong possibility. But that doesn't mean there aren't other possibilities. Flora could have tended to him with the help of elves in some other place way back then. It doesn't have to have been the King of the Flower Storm who did it either.

Also, SK somewhat connects with Peekaf in my head - treated by elves, had red eyes, lived through a time skip, lost pretty much everything, a cute.

Uh, red eyes? Where did you get that? His eyes were normal as far as we know. And in his current state, he didn't necessarily have to experience a "time skip". He could have just been alive for a thousand years. That's actually hinted at by his very name (the kanji for "skull" is more specifically "weathered skull"). I find that Pikaf connexion extremely far-fetched.

She said "My existential form will merely change. We can meet again in your dreams.". We know that human dreams are the part of the astral world and that's where spirits live. She wasn't talking about just memories about her, right?

I know what Flora said. I quote you: "mages should not be afraid of death because after dying they move on to the astral world with their souls unchanged". What Flora is capable of may not apply to all magic users. The extent to which they are "changed" is also unknown.

This could be a good reason to resume his pursuit, don't you think? Or, again, her healing will be disrupted or incomplete and they will be forced to go to Falconia in order to finish it.
I think Guts needs a reason or a reminder, because if anything, he became even calmer and more detached from his Beast than he ever was since the Eclipse. And there is quite a big possibility that Flowerstorm King will do something with the Beast to tame it down.
If she will be healed and will want to go and take revenge than SK's words, about her having a different wish than Guts, would have no point. And SK always had a point. Just killing Griffith out of rage and take the child that fused with his shell (which would mean to kill or expel Femto from the shell) are not too different of a wishes. Though, it could be that it's Guts will be the who would want to settle down and move on, but Casca will demand actions to take her son back. Anyway, all I was saying is that I can't imagine to see completely healed Casca. Her being damaged or not completely restored would be okay for me. Again, it's just me.

The Skull Knight's words could be interpreted in many different ways. Like for example that she may not even want to be healed, or to go on living. Or it could be something as simple as Guts wanting to kill Griffith and Casca not wanting to because of the boy. They could then head to Falconia together but with very diverging goals and an uncertain future. Or Guts might want to immediately resume their romantic relationship while Casca will not be ready for it. The possibilities are numerous. And the Skull Knight spoke in uncertain terms too, he didn't say "she will not want what you want".

Basically your whole argument here rests on your inability to make sense of that line. But would the impossibility of healing Casca in the first place (because of a missing component or whatever) make sense of it? Nope. It'd just avoid the problem entirely, which is the least likely outcome even if we follow your own logic.

He knows that it was years for Puck.

I don't think it works like that.

No one, It's my assumption. Tears are associated mainly with suffering and negative emotions. Beherits seems to be a concentration of negative emotions and they release it upon full activation and this is what summons God Hand.

Alright but like I told you, we see beherits rising from the Abyss in volume 13 and they're not made from tears. That's pretty final as far as I'm concerned.

With the new anime show I realised that Betchi is actually grey/blueish and not olive color. It was grey/blueish in PS2 game, in 1997 year's calendar and in the official illustration book (last two were made directly by Miura, so it couldn't be a mistake) as well.

The beherit Guts carries is green. The only canon source is the manga and Miura's color illustrations, and Miura has been consistently depicting it green for 20 years. I don't know what you're referring to here exactly, but Guts' beherit is green.

I don't think I saw any other Beherit in color (at least not from Miura), except Betchi and Crimson Beherit, so I assume that all regular Beherits are grey/blueish, which may be the color of a tears.

Beherits can be many colors. Balzac and Niko's beherit, for example, was blue.

Well, Holy See had the prophecy about the Hawk of Darkness, so they know (or rather knew) at least something that's true. They lost it over the years and became completely different thing now, so I though the same could be with the heretics.

They have a fragmented version of it, yes. Schierke explains during the events in Enoch that parts of the Holy See's doctrine are basically variations of truths about the world that a magic user understands. But would you say that the Holy See is the remnant of a school of magic? I wouldn't, I think it's not quite the case. And the same goes for the heretics.

Anyway, thank you for your thoughts! I won't go on, because I think I'm drifting off towards speculations instead of the chapter discussion.

You're welcome, but Berserk's individual issues are called episodes, not chapters. "Chapter" refers to larger batches of episodes, like the Chapter of the Lost Children. You can find a detailed list here.

Offline Henry Spencer

Re: Episode 344
« Reply #222 on: July 18, 2016, 10:54:52 AM »
Was thinking that the upcoming episodes might just give some back story into Puck but also Flora (maybe Schierke was originally from here and we see what happened to her parents and why Flora took her away from that island?) and the origins of the Berserker Armour perhaps? Maybe they will be able to advise Guts and Schierke how to hone the Berserker Armour properly without harming any of the rest of them in the process next time it's used? Or potentially new weapons and tools for the team to use on their next adventures? About time some of them got another upgrade, surely?

Was thinking what the fuck is Magnifico and Roderick going to do here anyway?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 344
« Reply #223 on: July 18, 2016, 11:12:53 AM »
Was thinking that the upcoming episodes might just give some back story into Puck but also Flora (maybe Schierke was originally from here and we see what happened to her parents and why Flora took her away from that island?) and the origins of the Berserker Armour perhaps? Maybe they will be able to advise Guts and Schierke how to hone the Berserker Armour properly without harming any of the rest of them in the process next time it's used? Or potentially new weapons and tools for the team to use on their next adventures?

Yeah I've talked about all of that earlier in the thread.

Offline Henry Spencer

Re: Episode 344
« Reply #224 on: July 18, 2016, 07:19:15 PM »
Ah, must have missed it, nevermind then.